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Cold Hardy Bananas This forum is dedicated to the discussion of bananas that are able to grow and thrive in cold areas. You'll find lots of tips and discussions about keeping your bananas over the winter.


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Old 11-29-2015, 09:57 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Cut my nanners back too soon!

So I had some frost damage to my Musas. I knew they weren't dead, but I didn't see a point in keeping them going any further into the season so I cut them back. I place wire around a couple of them and packed with cherry chainsaw slash as an insulator. The rest, I just dumped the slash over.

The very next day, I had an inch of new growth coming out of the p-stems. Should I just have waited until they died back or am I on the right track here? If the latter is correct, what do I do about the new growth, wait until it really dies back and then pack more slash on top and cover?



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Old 11-29-2015, 10:13 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

Nice cages!!
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Old 11-29-2015, 10:20 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

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Nice cages!!
Thanks! They remind me of giant scratching posts, LOL.

I wish I had more wire though! They look nice and professional, and I think the slash is a better insulator than leaves. I have a ton of the stuff too. My dad turns wooden bowls on the lathe, and I have piles of chainsaw and turning slash to use as mulch.
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Old 11-29-2015, 12:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

I don't think you made any mistake. Any growth that would happen from now on isn't going to add anything significant to the plants, and you may as well wrap them up a little early rather than too late.

But really I don't even think it's growth.

I've had this idea for awhile that when you cut pseudostems and see the resulting immediate "growth", that it's actually not growth. I've always meant to investigate the phenomenon further, but haven't got around to it (yet), and haven't seen any obvious explanations in the literature (though it's probably out there somewhere, I just haven;t looked very hard). The reason I don't think it is growth is that it happens very very quickly, often much quicker than the plant could be growing (sometimes an inch or more in a matter of minutes).

As to what is actually happening, I'm not 100% sure, but my thinking leads me towards some type of pressure release as a result of removing the top of the plant. New growth would seem to be under some pressure as the meristem is dividing beneath at the top of the corm and the young leaves inside are slowly expanding and being forced up through the pseudostem. When a portion of the pseudostem is cut off, that could be taking away a portion of the plant that had resistance to the growth beneath, and like a champagne cork, the result is an immediate and quick spurt of apparent growth of the young leaves below the cut. Surely growth in the true sense (cell division and expansion) is contributing to some minor degree which is probably variable depending on conditions, but I don't think it's the main factor in this phenomenon immediately following the cutting.

I've also noticed the same thing can happen when cutting onions during cooking, and they are definitely not growing. They have a very similar morphology to banana pseudostems.
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Old 11-29-2015, 12:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

I had the same problem, mine started growing and I just cut off the new growth again. When you cover if you use a tarp, or plastic, dont let it touch the pstem on top, the plastic will conduct cold into the pstem and freeze it. In my unheated greenhouse each winter, I overwinter my plants by just covering with frost cloth and plastic and have successfully kept them alive this way even down to 1 F degrees outside, but any place the plastic touches will kill the plants tissues. I put the frost cloth under the plastic so they dont touch.
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:12 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

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Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post
I don't think you made any mistake. Any growth that would happen from now on isn't going to add anything significant to the plants, and you may as well wrap them up a little early rather than too late.

But really I don't even think it's growth.

I've had this idea for awhile that when you cut pseudostems and see the resulting immediate "growth", that it's actually not growth. I've always meant to investigate the phenomenon further, but haven't got around to it (yet), and haven't seen any obvious explanations in the literature (though it's probably out there somewhere, I just haven;t looked very hard). The reason I don't think it is growth is that it happens very very quickly, often much quicker than the plant could be growing (sometimes an inch or more in a matter of minutes).

As to what is actually happening, I'm not 100% sure, but my thinking leads me towards some type of pressure release as a result of removing the top of the plant. New growth would seem to be under some pressure as the meristem is dividing beneath at the top of the corm and the young leaves inside are slowly expanding and being forced up through the pseudostem. When a portion of the pseudostem is cut off, that could be taking away a portion of the plant that had resistance to the growth beneath, and like a champagne cork, the result is an immediate and quick spurt of apparent growth of the young leaves below the cut. Surely growth in the true sense (cell division and expansion) is contributing to some minor degree which is probably variable depending on conditions, but I don't think it's the main factor in this phenomenon immediately following the cutting.

I've also noticed the same thing can happen when cutting onions during cooking, and they are definitely not growing. They have a very similar morphology to banana pseudostems.
Thank you for the feedback. I would tend to agree, except that we had a couple of cold nights and then...BAM! We're back into the 70's again. I think the plant has mistaken this for a freak of nature and is now trying to make up for lost time.
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:13 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

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Originally Posted by siege2050 View Post
I had the same problem, mine started growing and I just cut off the new growth again. When you cover if you use a tarp, or plastic, dont let it touch the pstem on top, the plastic will conduct cold into the pstem and freeze it. In my unheated greenhouse each winter, I overwinter my plants by just covering with frost cloth and plastic and have successfully kept them alive this way even down to 1 F degrees outside, but any place the plastic touches will kill the plants tissues. I put the frost cloth under the plastic so they dont touch.
Hey Siege-

What I was planning on doing, is taking a butter container and filling it with the same slash, then placing over the top and duct taping it into place. Looks like we're on the same page!
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Old 11-29-2015, 06:02 PM   #8 (permalink)
<div style="font-weight: bold;">&lt;div style=&quot;font-weight: bold;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;div style=&amp;quot;font-weight: bold;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;di v style=&amp;amp;quot;font-weight: bold;&amp;amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;a mp;amp;lt;di v sty
 
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

Quote:
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I don't think you made any mistake. Any growth that would happen from now on isn't going to add anything significant to the plants, and you may as well wrap them up a little early rather than too late.

But really I don't even think it's growth.

I've had this idea for awhile that when you cut pseudostems and see the resulting immediate "growth", that it's actually not growth. I've always meant to investigate the phenomenon further, but haven't got around to it (yet), and haven't seen any obvious explanations in the literature (though it's probably out there somewhere, I just haven;t looked very hard). The reason I don't think it is growth is that it happens very very quickly, often much quicker than the plant could be growing (sometimes an inch or more in a matter of minutes).

As to what is actually happening, I'm not 100% sure, but my thinking leads me towards some type of pressure release as a result of removing the top of the plant. New growth would seem to be under some pressure as the meristem is dividing beneath at the top of the corm and the young leaves inside are slowly expanding and being forced up through the pseudostem. When a portion of the pseudostem is cut off, that could be taking away a portion of the plant that had resistance to the growth beneath, and like a champagne cork, the result is an immediate and quick spurt of apparent growth of the young leaves below the cut. Surely growth in the true sense (cell division and expansion) is contributing to some minor degree which is probably variable depending on conditions, but I don't think it's the main factor in this phenomenon immediately following the cutting.

I've also noticed the same thing can happen when cutting onions during cooking, and they are definitely not growing. They have a very similar morphology to banana pseudostems.



That makes perfect sense since the top that is cut off also pushes out the center.
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Old 11-29-2015, 09:44 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

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That makes perfect sense since the top that is cut off also pushes out the center.
X2. Expansion of compressed tissue. Having the same center push on both sides of the cut sounds like proof to me. Very small amount of actual growth.
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Old 11-30-2015, 09:29 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

I'll keep an eye on it. If it slows and stops, then you were spot on. If it starts growing leaves though, it might still be growing.
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Old 11-30-2015, 01:44 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

Okay, four days and 4" of growth on all plants. I really think this is new growth, not merely expansion. Here's a pic of what's going on:


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Old 11-30-2015, 03:49 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

When I send someone a corm I always explain that the initial push is just a pressure release and basically meaningless, don't get excited when you see it and don't get depressed when it stops.

If the top section of the plant is removed and then the corm is also removed, the pseudostem will push the center shaft out both ends, the top & the bottom. And the corm will obviously push and probably also the top section with the leaves, so it should push out at all 4 ends.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post
I don't think you made any mistake. Any growth that would happen from now on isn't going to add anything significant to the plants, and you may as well wrap them up a little early rather than too late.

But really I don't even think it's growth.

I've had this idea for awhile that when you cut pseudostems and see the resulting immediate "growth", that it's actually not growth. I've always meant to investigate the phenomenon further, but haven't got around to it (yet), and haven't seen any obvious explanations in the literature (though it's probably out there somewhere, I just haven;t looked very hard). The reason I don't think it is growth is that it happens very very quickly, often much quicker than the plant could be growing (sometimes an inch or more in a matter of minutes).

As to what is actually happening, I'm not 100% sure, but my thinking leads me towards some type of pressure release as a result of removing the top of the plant. New growth would seem to be under some pressure as the meristem is dividing beneath at the top of the corm and the young leaves inside are slowly expanding and being forced up through the pseudostem. When a portion of the pseudostem is cut off, that could be taking away a portion of the plant that had resistance to the growth beneath, and like a champagne cork, the result is an immediate and quick spurt of apparent growth of the young leaves below the cut. Surely growth in the true sense (cell division and expansion) is contributing to some minor degree which is probably variable depending on conditions, but I don't think it's the main factor in this phenomenon immediately following the cutting.

I've also noticed the same thing can happen when cutting onions during cooking, and they are definitely not growing. They have a very similar morphology to banana pseudostems.
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:02 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

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When I send someone a corm I always explain that the initial push is just a pressure release and basically meaningless, don't get excited when you see it and don't get depressed when it stops.

If the top section of the plant is removed and then the corm is also removed, the pseudostem will push the center shaft out both ends, the top & the bottom. And the corm will obviously push and probably also the top section with the leaves, so it should push out at all 4 ends.
Thank you for the input.

I forgot to include when I posted this, that the stuff I cut off is not doing this. The plant was frost hit, but not killed back. All I am trying to establish, is how to curtail the damage I did by cutting them back too soon.
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Old 11-30-2015, 05:09 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

Mine did the same thing.I cut it down then it got warm for couple weeks and when I got back from vacation they had pushed up through the couple feet of mulch and straw all the way to the top and pushed some of the tarp up. I just moved some of the top layer and cut them down some and covered back up. I am going to add some more straw in there cause I can feel one when i touch the top of the tarp. It was the weird warm ups we had this year. Last year I cut mine down and when I uncovered it in spring it was exactly as I left it when I covered it.
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Old 11-30-2015, 05:21 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

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Thank you for the input.

I forgot to include when I posted this, that the stuff I cut off is not doing this. The plant was frost hit, but not killed back. All I am trying to establish, is how to curtail the damage I did by cutting them back too soon.
I don't recall ever looking at the top section with the leaves to see if the center pushed, but I certainly expect it would. Keep in mind that there is much less pressure at the top so it will be much less noticeable.

I can't help with your problem, but maybe it'll make no difference, maybe releasing that pressure before dormancy is a good thing or maybe it's a bad thing.

Good Luck
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:59 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

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Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post

I've always meant to investigate the phenomenon further, but haven't got around to it (yet), and haven't seen any obvious explanations in the literature (though it's probably out there somewhere, I just haven;t looked very hard).

... and like a champagne cork, the result is an immediate and quick spurt of apparent growth of the young leaves below the cut.
Besides the compression force being released there is also the torsion force. Most folks have probably noticed the phenomenon of the center shaft spinning/rotating/twisting as it travels through the pseudostem, if not, it's from right to left, or clockwise if viewing from above.
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Old 12-02-2015, 11:20 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

You didn't damage the plants by cutting them back too soon. the growth point is in the corm, you could essentially cut the whole pstem to the ground and it'll still pop right back up in the spring. In my experience, the plant will continue to grow at a slow rate during warm spells as long as the ground stays warm. For that reason, I don't wrap my basjoos until temps drop into the mid 20s. Otherwise they'd push through the protection.
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Old 12-03-2015, 10:40 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

I'll know not to do that again next year! The growth rate is phenomenal since it warmed back up. One of them is already unfurling into two leaves!
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Old 12-04-2015, 06:54 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

I just let mine die back with the first frost, about two weeks ago, and it's pushing up new leaves through!

You can't fight Mother Nature.
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Old 12-11-2015, 01:34 PM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Cut my nanners back too soon!

I am getting worried as to the health of my banana trees. I cut them back and heavily insulated them expecting a cold winter...........Now we are having above 60-o temps here in SWVA and they may be overheating in there? What should I do, the evenings are colder sometimes aroound 32, but then the days are warmer in the 60s. Afraid I may lose them this year and for over the past 10 years I have basically protecgted them the same way...........does anyone recommend taking the plastic covers off now to let ventaliztion in.......soon we will have rain her and lots of it..............this weather is evident of a changing environment due to manmade reasons and we are going to have to cope with these environmental changes and deal with it I guess.
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