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Cold Hardy Bananas This forum is dedicated to the discussion of bananas that are able to grow and thrive in cold areas. You'll find lots of tips and discussions about keeping your bananas over the winter.


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Old 05-13-2010, 01:50 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default Basjoo seed

Hi,

I have often wondered why one never sees any M. basjoo seed around? I mean never, ever! Especially since the basjoo fruits should be full of them! It is apparently always propagated vegetatively. Does anyone have a good explanation?
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

Hello and Welcome!

It is because M. basjoo is so common and demanded that it is mostly produced via tissue culture. It is easy to produce many plants by tissue culture which is actually a lot cheaper than harvesting seed which requires the growing of many mature plants in the ground which takes a lot of resources and space. Tissue culture is cheap and easy and can be done anywhere in the world.

I am not sure of the source of some of the banana seeds on the market, whether people are growing the plants specifically for seed sales or whether they are harvested from the (dwindling) wild populations. In either case, M. basjoo seed would be a lot more expensive to produce and is harder to grow and thus harder to sell than its tissue culture counterparts. Not that M. basjoo seed isn't available from time to time from some sources, but it is rare to see it offered for sale.

If someone has a few big stands of M. basjoo that flower all the time, and is willing to put in the effort of coordinating the hand pollination necessary for seed set, it would be possible to produce a decent amount of seed.
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:53 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

I see, it's just that in the my 10+ years of growing palms and other exotics I have never noticed basjoo seeds beeing offered for sale. At the moment one dealer offer 33 kinds of Musa seeds, but no basjoo. One should think there would be a market for basjoo seeds too. And beeing grown all over the world one should think there would be many sources of comparatively cheap seeds.

Anyway thanks for the answer and welcome! It's a great forum!
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:16 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

Raja,

If you find a source of seeds keep us informed.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post
If someone has a few big stands of M. basjoo that flower all the time, and is willing to put in the effort of coordinating the hand pollination necessary for seed set, it would be possible to produce a decent amount of seed.
Why do they need to be hand pollinated?
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:37 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

Because in their natural habitat they are dependent on animal vectors for pollination. So if they are growing outside of their natural habitat, it is unlikely something will be able to efficiently take the place of the natural pollinator, so hand pollination is a good idea to make sure you get seed.
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Old 05-14-2010, 10:58 AM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

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Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post
Because in their natural habitat they are dependent on animal vectors for pollination. So if they are growing outside of their natural habitat, it is unlikely something will be able to efficiently take the place of the natural pollinator, so hand pollination is a good idea to make sure you get seed.
That makes sense, but I thought all bananas produced fruit in cultivation. Are they all hand pollinated? There must be some exceptions.
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:52 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

Edible bananas produce fruit without pollination and do not have seeds via a phenomenon called "parthenocarpy" (google that term for more info, bananas specifically have "vegetative parthenocarpy") that was selected by humans and is one of the most important steps that occurred in banana domestication (in addition to increased fruit size and number and sterility etc...). Wild bananas, such as M. basjoo, are undomesticated and act like the average flowering plant, they require pollination to set fruit and those fruits will then have seeds in them.
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Old 05-14-2010, 06:25 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

Thanks for all the posts Gabe.
Dean W: Will keep you posted if ever I find a source of reliable basjoo seed!

Found this very interesting article on M. basjoo, "The truth about Musa basjoo" (2007) by the british Musa expert David Constantine on his very comprehensive website. I hope I don't infringe on his copyright by citing a part about seed and propagation. (The whole article can be found here:
The truth about Musa basjoo.
It is really very, very interesting.)

Musa basjoo has been in continuous cultivation in the UK and mainland Europe since its introduction in 1887 or 1888 and propagated vegetatively by separation of suckers derived from leaf-opposed lateral buds; the Musaceae do not have axillary buds. Nearly all the M. basjoo plants offered for sale today are micropropagated, a process that essentially accelerates natural suckering through exposure of shoots to synthetic cytokinin in vitro. In highlighting the supposed relationship between M. basjoo and M. itinerans, Turner et al (2002) follow Simmonds (1962) and comment that both have long, stoloniferous rhizomes. This statement cannot readily be reconciled with horticultural experience as can be seen, for example, by examining the several clumps of M. basjoo growing at RBG Kew; Musa basjoo is a relatively close suckering species. In contrast, M. itinerans is said to produce suckers 2m away from the parent stem (Cheesman 1949). Cheesman (1948c) commented that M. basjoo is shy suckering and this can be seen in old established plants such as at Overbecks Garden at Sharpitor, Devon that have only ever been subject to conventional propagation from suckers. On the other hand, M. basjoo produced from micropropagation tend to sucker profusely, a probable carryover effect of the synthetic cytokinin used in the micropropagation process.

Musa basjoo produces viable seed in Japan where the winter temperature is no lower than -3.5°C (Amano), and presumably also in China, but so far seed has not been reported on plants in cultivation in the UK. The absence of seed has confused some people but has a simple explanation. In a typical banana inflorescence, the basal flowers are functionally female and the apical flowers functionally male; emphasis is placed on function rather than structure since all Musa flowers have male and female elements. There are a few Musa species that have functionally hermaphrodite basal flowers but M. basjoo is not one of these. By the time male flowers are produced on a M. basjoo inflorescence, the females are no longer receptive. An isolated plant producing a single inflorescence will not therefore set seed. However, where two nearby plants or two stems on the same “mat” flower asynchronously so that the first to flower can pollinate the second, there is no reason why viable seed should not be produced. Although the temporal separation of female and male flowers is designed to ensure outcrossing there is no self-incompatibility mechanism in Musa. However, in the U.K. another limiting factor is that a long, warm autumn would be required to develop and ripen the fruit. This has so far precluded seed production even in otherwise favourable microclimates such as at Overbecks where there are several flowering clumps of M. basjoo. Recently, there have been reports of viable M. basjoo seed being produced in the U.S. (Wagner pers. com. 2003) and there must be large areas of that country with a climate suitable for production of seed.

Seed of more and more banana species is becoming available commercially but for some reason seed of M. basjoo has not so far been offered, or, at least, not under that name. Chinese seed offered by Carl Sandeman in 2000 as Musa wilsonii turned out to be M. basjoo but with very low viability and seed of that provenance has not been offered again. With the increased interest in the Musaceae as ornamentals it is presumably only a matter of time before M. basjoo seed from China, or Japan, becomes routinely available.

Because of the lack of seed and the fact that it has been vegetatively propagated for so long there has been little variation in the M. basjoo offered for sale in Europe. Most plants represent the Veitch clone, more or less unaltered since its introduction. It is possible that some clonal variation has occurred through sporting, to which bananas are especially liable, or the accumulation of systemic pathogens. Anecdotally there do appear to be “good” and “poor” strains of M. basjoo in cultivation, but this requires further investigation. It is also possible that there were other introductions of M. basjoo by nurseries such as Vanhoutte, Verschaffelt & Donckelaer who were active in importing plants from China and Japan in the latter part of the 19th century. Although there are no contemporary reports of such introductions in Revue de Horticulture Belge et Étrangere or Revue Horticole this also requires further investigation.


Wouldn't it be fun to get some more variation in basjoo by growing seed propagated plants? I think it would, especially for nana growers like me living in a cold climate where the variety of nanas for growing outdoors is limited. For gardeners living in the sub tropics and tropics, who can choose and pick between so many wonderfull varieties we can only dream about growing outdoors, it's another story.

Last edited by Rajabashoo : 05-15-2010 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 05-16-2010, 10:35 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

Hi,

I have a Musa basjoo in Brazil, it is growing well, planted in February 2009. The climate there is no problem for producting seeds.

Yes, I agree, that there should be one variation of basjoos. Seedlings are genetically different, the micropropagated clones not. We need different basjoo cultivars and also basjoo hybrids, e. g. basjoo x sikkimensis, basjoo x itinerans, basjoo x yunnanensis, Mysore x basjoo and others.

At first I will propagate my basjoo in Brazil, it also suckered. Next month I will look after my basjoo and will propagate. I will build one new banana bed in my Brazilian yard. I will prepare the seed production of basjoo.

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Old 05-16-2010, 12:59 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

Variation in seed will only come with outcrossing to other M. basjoo plants, such as in a wild population. If you self-pollinate a plant, or pollinate it with a plant of the same clone, then no variation will be created. I have some old wild collected M. basjoo seeds but they never germinated, if I can next semester, I will try embryo rescue tissue culture to produce some plants from them, I've had some success from old seeds with this method.
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Old 05-17-2010, 02:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

Sounds really great, guys. Good luck. Will be very interesting to follow your progress!

I started this thread mostly out of curiosity, since my garden is more than full of plants already and I haven't got room for at lot more. Save perhaps for a verified more coldhardy basjoo variety/clone than the ones I grow and/or a form/hybrid with nice edible fruit and/or one with stable variegation!

But still I wonder if there aren't anyone on this board who have already successfully grown their own basjoo seeds or wild collected basjoo seeds (in China) and grown them into mature plants? There certainly must be a lot of gardeners out there worldwide (but not on this board perhaps?) who have tried!

Or could the lack of available seed be that since (according to David Constantine) much of the basjoo material in cultivation apparently belong to very few god/bad clones, these clones don't like to be selfed? And if they are, their seed have very low viability? Or is it simply that basjoo seed generally have low viability (unless very fresh?).

Or could part of the reason for no seeds be that most basjoos grown today are produced through micropropagation? Because, again according to Constantine, ” the fact that normally M. basjoo is shy suckering and this can be seen in old established plants such as at Overbecks Garden at Sharpitor, Devon that have only ever been subject to conventional propagation from suckers.” As opposed to micropropagation that is ”a process that essentially accelerates natural suckering through exposure of shoots to synthetic cytokinin in vitro” and the resulting plants thereby use most of their energy on the new offsets and become less willing to flower?

Or is it just because, it is easier to produce/buy the micropropagated plants and people don't want to bother with the seeds? I don't know. But it still pussels me.

However this is all speculation on my part. Please feel free to oppose it!

Now I will forget theory and go out and enjoy my spring garden! That is, essentially, what gardening is about to me!
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:13 AM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

Hi , I tried to germinate some seeds a few month ago but unsuccessfull...I think they are very difficult to germinate so its a reason why the propagation by cloning is done...Maybe Gabe will be more successfull with his embryo method, let's cross the finger...
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Old 05-21-2010, 02:48 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

Very interesting thread. Thank you guys!
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:16 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Basjoo seed

Also I hope that Gabe15 will have success with his embryo method. I keep the fingers crossing. Perhaps new hardy basjoo edible fruit banana cultivars, e. g. Mysore x basjoo from mine might be grown by the embryo method. I will see whether the Mysore seeds do germinate well. But it will take time to get Mysore and my basjoo in Brazil to flower. The plants are still 5 to 8 feet tall, Mysore 8 months old and basjoo 15 months old.

Best wishes
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