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voyager 12-14-2013 09:43 PM

OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
While I've read and perused through the Hawaii Banana Book, my knowledge of bananas is still too skimpy to weed through the info in the book in order to make an ID myself, too many things I do not understand yet.

Here is the 1st clump of plants [the same as in my first ID request post].


The next 5 photos are of the 5 suckers starting from the clump'






The blossom has developed to this point since I first noted it, what 2 weeks ago?


The petioles look like this:



Is more info need to get a likely ID on these?

While cleaning them up prior to taking the new photos, I found what appears to be LFA nests under the old dried sheaths on the stems of the plants. I shall begin warring on them soon. I've been getting bitten by them regularly since starting to clear up the property. Even though I don't develop welts from their bites, I'm getting tired of it.

I'll post the other 3 groups in separate posts. There are at least 2 more types of bananas located here.

robguz24 12-14-2013 10:05 PM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
I've read the book twice and it's really difficult unless something is flowering and you can look at the male and female flowers. Sometimes something strikes me about a look or color of the plant itself. And some are just kind of obvious by color, leaning, etc. If I had to guess, I'd say they they are Dwarf Brazilian aka Hawaiian Apple. The bunch is small since it wasn't properly fertilized.

For LFAs I had a lot of success on my 1/5 acre lot with Tango. Lots of good info here: Welcome to the Hawaii Ant Lab Tango is $600 but I can refer you to someone who sells in smaller quantities, but given the amount of land you have, it may make sense to buy the minimum or split it with a neighbor. 2 treatments over 3 months with the peanut butter gel bait recipe and they seem to be gone for now. It was getting to where almost any dead leaf sheath had a nest of them when I'd pull them off the plant. Now none have them and I'm not getting bit.

voyager 12-14-2013 11:18 PM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
Hi robguz,
My suspicion is also that the first 2 groups are Dwarf Brazilian [aka: Hawaiian Apple]. But, I actually haven't the faintest idea of what they really are. My guess is that of a completely ignorant tyro assuming that they are the same as the most common type seen in the farmers markets. I suppose it amounts to nothing more than wishful thinking.
Thanks guy.

robguz24 12-15-2013 04:02 AM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
Well one more thing would be to take off some of the male flowers and see if they seem the same as in the book for Apples. They aren't namwahs, ice creams, mysore, any type of cavendish or Saba type and that rules out a lot of what else you'd expect to find here. Can also rule out any AAA like Gros Michel or Reds. How open the petioles are seems about right for DBs. The fruiting height is also in the right range. And given that they are by far the most common type you'll find home grown around here, the odds are on DBs. The fruit size and shape also looks right for that stage given the lack of fertilizer.

raygrogan 12-15-2013 05:59 PM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
Thanks for good pix. Looks like you have done some good hard work, and have lots to go. I agree with Rob that your bananas desperately need fertilizer. No comment on varieties.

You have a lot of what I call "barkies" - where the plant does not expand and push off the old leaf bases. A good healthy growing banana plant should get so much plumper that it splits the old leaves. The barkies are more or less "doomed" so OK to cut them out once you get some healthy ones growing.

There are some good fertilizer experts here, some cool schemes, but if nothing else just get a bag of 10-20-20 and put a cup full around each matt each week or two. Ideally bury it so you are feeding the bananas more and the weeds less.

The best thing I ever did for barkies was giving them some prime dirt. They were growing in ~rocks and my fertilizing did not seem to stick. I mixed up dirt with all kinds of goodies - dolomite lime, peat moss, Ironite, diatomacous (sp?) earth, and most of all tons of fertilizer. Then make a pile near the matt. It took a while, like 6 mos, but eventually the new pups started growing very well. (You'll soon learn about "flags" and "swords" to recognize the ones that have a good corm under them.) Then eventually nice fat phat bunches.

Good luck. Lots of potential there.

voyager 12-16-2013 04:43 AM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
@ robguz
I was looking at the blossom below the hands. The male flowers are discoloring. But, if I pull the reddish covering piece [ what ever its called] the uncovered flowers look to be OK. I'll try to take a closer look at them soon. But, we've just moved in recently and are still trying to get everything organized. Plus, bananas are not the only thing I'm working with on the grounds.
I'm sorely disappointed that the reds are ornamentals. But, I was talking to a banana plant vendor at the Moku'u Market today. He said that the dwarf version of those red plants can be palatable. I'm gonna watch the bunches on them and when they look to be ripening I'm gonna try my first banana with seeds in it. Whether I take more than one bite and swallow it remains to be seen.
Plus, he advised to try saving the Bluggoes. I'll be picking up some long stakes and propping them all up. Although, I may move them to a location that gets a lot more sun exposure. I've got so many "irons-in-the-fire" right now that I'm not sure if I can get a new plot for them prepared right now.

@ raygrogan
I've been out looking at fertilizers recently. I picked up a few #'s of a high N & K timed release type. I don't think it was a good choice for them. I'm thinking that the clumps are pretty depleted in nutrients and need something that will put things more quickly usable by the plants. I was leery of shocking them with too much too soon. But, I'm coming of the opinion that bananas may not be all that sensitive.
I've found several large bags of topsoil [potting soil] left by the previous owner that could be used to build a new location for the group that is in the worst condition. But, as I've said earlier, I've got a lot of thing going right now. The time to do that right now is hard to find. We'll see what happens.
About 1/2 of this acre lot has been "stripped and ripped" for construction of the house. All the bananas are planted within the ripped area, but are in very rocky soil. Even much of the lawn area has rocks poking up through it. I've been collecting and stacking rocks and am running out of room to store them. The banana plantings have many rocks of various sizes all through their soil. After reading something about rocks giving the roots something to hold on to I stopped worrying about it. But, now they are complicating what I need to get done. Try driving a 6 to 8' plastic stake down through rocky soil. HAH!

robguz24 12-16-2013 09:27 AM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
You need to buy an O'o bar for breaking up the rock. Bananas grow fine in mostly rocky "soil" here, as all mine are like that.
Yes, living one of the coverings to get a fresh male flower is good.
You want 13-3-37 or 10-5-40 from BEI. Get some of the free county mulch to put on top of them all at least 6" thick. That's more important than trying to bust up any rock. Let me know if you end up buying more plants from that vendor, as at least 3 types he sells are mislabeled.

Abnshrek 12-16-2013 09:50 AM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robguz24 (Post 236109)
Let me know if you end up buying more plants from that vendor, as at least 3 types he sells are mislabeled.

Isn't that better than Aloha Tropics on average? :^)

voyager 12-16-2013 03:08 PM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
@ robguz
Where can I acquire an o'o?
I don't remember seeing any while perusing the local ag and gardening suppliers.

I stopped by BEI a couple of weeks ago and browsed around.
They seem to be aimed at commercial ag operations.
I saw a notice on the door stating a minimum purchase, $200 if I remember correctly.
I have made a lot of major expenditures lately and have a few more to make soon.
I find it hard to justify a $200 acquisition just for bananas right now.
In a few months, maybe.
Right now, not so likely, too many other things with a higher priority need to be done first.

I didn't buy any more banana plants at the market.
I just browsed around and spoke with him a bit about my banana plants and their situation.

The only thing I've been acquiring as additions around the property are $5 orchids to tie onto my Ohias and Hapu'us.
I grew orchids in my home in Alaska for many years.
My greatest priority is to get as many growing in my yard as I can.
Bananas are in the #2 slot right now.

Then, all my citrus and other fruit trees are infested with scale.
Some appear to be on the verge of dieing.
They need immediate care if they are going to survive.
I'm applying Neem Oil to everything right now.
We'll see how they do.

I have been pulling and cutting weeds off and on for the last few weeks.
I've taken 1 load to the transfer station already.
I wanted to use it as mulch, but was worried about it re rooting and growing from the piles of cut pieces.
What I've been mainly removing is:
Clidemia hirta [Kostner's Curse]
Melastoma candidum [Asian Melastome]
Tibouchina herbacia [Cane Tibouchina]
Ulu'he
Can these be "safely" composted here in piles on the ground without starting a new thicket of weeds?

I've also got quite a few weed trees that I'll be removing:
Cecropia obtusifolia [Trumpet Tree]
Trema orientalis [Gunpowder Tree]
and a few small Albizias that have seeded from neighboring lots.

I know the Albizias will regenerate from cutting and stumps, and the Cecropias look to be easy re growers from how they have grown around the lot. The Gunpowder Tree is an unknown to me.
I consider it to be extraordinary luck that I do not have to deal with Strawberry Guava.

Bust, busy, busy ... No rest for the wicked.

robguz24 12-16-2013 05:54 PM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
I've never spent as much as $200 at BEI, and have bought as little as a bag of lime for $10. Just ask the person at the counter for banana fert, should be under $30. Garden Exchange has it too for a few bucks more. Between triple 16, ago-palm- citrus blend, and 13-3-37 you should be good for just about everything. Can't remember where I got my O'o, maybe Home Depot.

voyager 12-16-2013 09:05 PM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
Hi robguz,
I found a 50# bag of BEI's Gaviota 10-5-40 H at the feed & seed in Pahoa for <$40. I think that + some fish fertilizer soil and leaf drenches [high N] should be in the range they need.
I haven't picked it up yet, but will unless advised otherwise.

Here is a photo of the male flowers from the 1st group
I picked them and then took about an hour to unpack and setup my camera gear.
So, they were exposed to the air and some drying before the pics were taken.

They look a bit redder than the picture in the book for a Brazilian Dwarf.

raygrogan 12-16-2013 09:42 PM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
BEI on Oahu: Their minimum is $50, which is pretty easy for me to shoot thru. I just have a list when I go in, and if need be I can always use a bale of spagnum peat moss. You do have the big purchase problem, but they are cheaper by far, and have some ferts that are hard to find otherwise. The only ways I know to get cheaper is to get lucky and have somebody give you their leftovers when moving, etc. Sometimes stores have a busted up bag they want to get rid of cheap.


O'o - Home Depot on Oahu has, 2 kinds I think. I've always had a regular one - has a pointed end that I use the most, and a sorta angled pry bar end. Bar is substanial, hex shaped, like a pencil. For rock work, trails, etc. you just can't beat this tool.

From Bananas.org I learned about the other kind - (Bananimal has the coolest) - this type has a flat strong shovel on one end and a tamper on the other. HD calls it a tamper head digging bar. It is $32. Took me awhile to part with that, but it is indeed handy to pry out heavy banana corms. (But mostly I use a drop of 41% glyphosate to kill the corm now more than digging out.) Before I got the banana bar I'd been able to dig pups off with a regular tree spade, but it is super easy to ruin one trying to pry, bend, etc.

If you want to put off buying a commercial o'o for awhile, maybe you could try making a real da kine one. I have been told (not tested yet) that the tree used the most for that is the relatively common alahe'e. The wood does seem strong. My wood is curing now, not sure how I will carve it, maybe a power planer if I get lucky. I'm not expecting it to be as strong as steel, but I bet I can get some stuff done with it. And it will be easier to carry around.

Or just leave the big rocks where they are, and only move the ones that are your size. You seem to be learning at rocket speed ... if you visit some of the old rock work sites, or talk to guys building rock walls, you can learn lots. It is fun work. Watch your finger tips, tho.

robguz24 12-17-2013 03:19 PM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
The male flowers on mine have no red at all on the bottom half, but the top half looks about the same. The fertilizer in Pahoa sounds fine.

PR-Giants 12-17-2013 04:44 PM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
$40 for 50# seems really expensive, and I'm used to everything being expensive because I live on an Island, but retail in PR is about $30 per 100#.

robguz24 12-17-2013 06:00 PM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
It is, I never pay more than $28 for 50#, which is still nearly double what you pay. As the most remote island chain on the planet and not being on the main island, we are used to such high prices. It's part of the reason that there isn't much farming and we import 90% of our food.

raygrogan 12-17-2013 06:10 PM

Re: OK, Let's Start this All Over Again: This is group 1 of 4
 
Here are my price notes, but they could be a year or more old:

BEI has 10-5-29 banana fert, $25 for 50#, or KNO3 $46 for 50#. KNO3 is 13-0-44, = 50% higher in K, and nitrate N, so good, net a little more expensive.
CaNO3 is ~$30, Basic ferts MUCH cheaper (like 10-20-20 50# for $26, about the same price as 20# at HD ($23)).

Back to real time. If you are not used to some of these ferts, a few pointers (in my micro climate, in an open air garage, Palolo, back, ~60 in rain a year):

Easy flow, no issues: 10-20-20 and the banana fert.

16-16-16 pulls water out of the air. Folding the open bag and covering with a sm weight is enough to keep it granular. If left open a drippy mess starts oozing out the bottom, and the fert is either soggy or stuck together.

The KNO3 will eventually turn into a rock. The cool part of that is you can put chunks of "rock" on the surface and it dissolves very slowly.

The calcium nitrate (world's sweetest fert in my plants' opinion) will pull water out of a desert breeze. I have to keep it in a covered plastic tub (old Tidy Cat bucket with lid). If left open it will turn to soup. I have never burnt a plant using it since it brings its own water.

I can't remember BEI's micros - I used to get iron sulfate (also turns to rock). Now the plants seem happy with big box Ironite or Milorganite, both easy to work with.


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