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Banana Identification Mystery Nanner? This is where you can get help to identify your banana plants. Upload some pics to your gallery and post a thread and let everyone know as much info that you have of the plant.


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Old 07-01-2017, 11:55 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default Ice Cream or Namwa?

I got these a little while ago and have them in my garden. They are still just babies so they may be hard to identify at this point. They were sold to me as ice cream but people here told me they were more likely a namwa. They have an interesting red outline around green leaves. Don't think I have seen that before. Thanks for the id help.


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Old 07-02-2017, 12:51 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Way too young to even try, you're going to have to wait until it fruits, which if you are in Portland OR is going to be a long and difficult journey, not impossible, but I wouldn't get too antsy.
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Old 07-02-2017, 08:22 AM   #3 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

I agree there is no way to be sure, but I can tell you my TC Namwah looked like that at first. I was all excited thinking I got the real deal, Blue Java, because the leaves were all green with a slight bluish tint and a pointy little end. After they begin growing bigger leaves, if they are Namwah, the midribs will begin appearing mauve (pinkish purple) and the leaves will lighten the green some. It just happened to me about a year ago, so it's fresh in mind.

The combination of the above described factors (If they happen) and the fact you ordered "Ice Cream" would make Namwah a pretty good guess. One thing you can do at this stage is rule out certain types. Maybe someone who grows Blue Java will chime in and let us know if the midribs are green or pink or what on them.
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Varieties I supposedly bought: Manzano, Cavendish, Blue Java, Sweetheart, and Gros Michel.
What it seems I actually have: Brazilian, Cavendish, Namwah, Dwarf Red, Gros Michel, Pisang Ceylon, Veinte Cohol and SH 3640, and American Goldfinger. FHIA 1, Paggi and FHIA 17... Always room for one more.
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Old 07-02-2017, 09:57 AM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Thanks for the info. I figured it was too young to tell but thought I would try. I am for sure going to wrap the stem over the winter. I figured because it was in the garden bed it might stay warmer than soil at ground level.
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Old 07-02-2017, 01:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Namwah and Ice Cream are very similar in appearance before fruiting, there are some slight differences but they are small enough that they can be easily masked by varying environmental conditions, and they only become apparent when the plants are relatively large.
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Old 07-02-2017, 05:34 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

That makes sense.
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Old 07-02-2017, 06:22 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Seems to me like Namwah and Blue Java are both Ice Cream bananas. At this point so many Namwah were purchased as Ice Cream it would be impossible to retract it at this point. Seems like it comes down to what ice cream a person has, either Namwah or Blue Java. The industry may have butchered the correct names and at this point no turning back.
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Old 07-03-2017, 02:17 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Botanical_Bryce View Post
Seems to me like Namwah and Blue Java are both Ice Cream bananas. At this point so many Namwah were purchased as Ice Cream it would be impossible to retract it at this point. Seems like it comes down to what ice cream a person has, either Namwah or Blue Java. The industry may have butchered the correct names and at this point no turning back.
I disagree. Just because someone calls the Namwah an IceCream banana, mis-labels plants for simply monetary gain, does not make it the real IceCream Blue Java.
Especially on a forum like bananas.org where we discuss bananas in depth with expert members, who actually have provided plenty of information and scientific literature links on how to distinguish the two varieties, we should never ever call a Namwah an IceCream banana and subsequently not add to the already existing confusion between the two different varieties. I prefer being part of the solution and educate people to the best of my knowledge instead of being part of the problem and "go with the flow".

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Old 07-03-2017, 07:14 AM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

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I disagree. Just because someone calls the Namwah an IceCream banana, mis-labels plants for simply monetary gain, does not make it the real IceCream Blue Java.
Especially on a forum like bananas.org where we discuss bananas in depth with expert members, who actually have provided plenty of information and scientific literature links on how to distinguish the two varieties, we should never ever call a Namwah an IceCream banana and subsequently not add to the already existing confusion between the two different varieties. I prefer being part of the solution and educate people to the best of my knowledge instead of being part of the problem and "go with the flow".
My neighbor has a Namwah and refuses to not call it Namwah. He calls it ice cream because he bought it that way. There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of common people with namwahs and not blue Java. All of which bought them under the name ice cream and I recently saw a dwarf namwah called dwarf ice cream. Most of the poeple are not on this forum and will never be. Even if you don't like it you still have to identify which ice cream a person has and by default we all already know it is going to be a Namwah. Certain battles in life I think should be fought and at this point it is either blue Java or Namwah. Ice cream has become moot. Refuse and fight and become the Jesse Jackson of Ice cream bananas but hate to tell you the name is stolen for good and is going to stick to those millions of little Namwahs distributed as ice cream. I never used the term ice cream to begin with. I only ever used blue Java or Namwah.
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Old 07-03-2017, 07:36 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

I am in the middle on that... I realize Namwah will probably always be considered ice cream, but I straighten it out whenever I get the chance. I, too use their names, not ice cream.
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Varieties I supposedly bought: Manzano, Cavendish, Blue Java, Sweetheart, and Gros Michel.
What it seems I actually have: Brazilian, Cavendish, Namwah, Dwarf Red, Gros Michel, Pisang Ceylon, Veinte Cohol and SH 3640, and American Goldfinger. FHIA 1, Paggi and FHIA 17... Always room for one more.
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Old 07-03-2017, 08:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

I'm pretty sure that it's probably best to drop 'Icecream' from being used as a name...just call it Blue Java or Namwah and be done with it. Eventually, it will be widespread enough that the current naming will fade from general use.
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Old 07-03-2017, 11:31 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

There are many examples of the same name being used for different cultivars, and in some cultures and contexts what may be seen as different cultivars to some people may be considered the same to others, and I think there is some wiggle room for that.

That being said, I don't think the fact that a tissue culture lab screwed up and mass propagated an error is a good excuse to consolidate names. Since scientific credibility of edible banana taxonomy can only go so far, to the subgroup level specifically, and 'Namwah' and 'Ice Cream' exist in different subgroups, I would stand by insisting they be differentiated whenever the opportunity arises. If they were different cultivars within the same subgroup, then having the same name is not so big of an issue as it can be extremely difficult to differentiate them using either morphological or molecular based analysis.

The notion of just allowing clearly different and non-closely-related cultivars to be called the same thing does not provide anyone with helpful information. We need only to try and figure out what a 'Ladyfinger' banana is to see where that logic ends up (it's used for so many different varieties it's a totally useless name).
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Old 07-03-2017, 12:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Ice cream and blue java seem to be used interchangeably to label both true blue java and namwa. My plant name spikes I got said ice cream. We need some way to distinguish between the two since they are different varieties. Just accepting the use of the wrong name would not be good. Especially for people new to growing bananas who don't know the difference between these two types. I would not have known mine were probably not ice cream if I had not been on this forum and asked. It might not be particularly important to me that they aren't but I do feel a little mad about being sold the wrong banana. Distinguishing between these bananas would not solve the entire problem but it is a start so people know if they got the wrong one.
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Old 07-03-2017, 05:55 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

When they fruit the differences are very clear, before they fruit it can be difficult to tell, they do have different growth habits before fruiting, but like I mentioned earlier these differences may not be apparent under some conditions and they will not be observable when only looking at small very young plants. And in the banana world, I would generally say a small and young plant is under 6months of active growth or half of its full size. Some traits only become apparent when you have suckers forming or even after they have fruited a few times.

I don't think figuring out a way to properly ID them before fruiting is going to result in anything, I think you'd have much better success at getting the right cultivar just by finding a reputable source of plants with a good track record.
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Old 07-04-2017, 10:59 AM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

I have some Blue Java, or think I do. Will know upon first fruiting
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Old 07-04-2017, 03:57 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

All of it is really sad. The problem is so bad now some sellers and online nurseries will substitute anything for anything just because others are doing it! I have a good friend who ordered several dwarf Orinoco and received dwarf cavendish from a very well known online nursery! More wine spots than green on the leaves! How do you mess this up? When I talked her into complaining the owner does nothing. This is a LONG time seller I won't mention the sites name since I didn't make the purchase, but I know 100% he knows a DO from a DC. And sent all 5 that she purchased, so I know it was intentional!

I know the blue java mix up is by agristarts but my point is there is so many people who are driven by $ and who do not care. Our mix up problems are going to get way worse than it is now in the future!

Blue Java I would say is the worse!
Ladyfinger is 2nd and I bet 90% ladyfingers out there are not the original AA.
Raja Puri I say is 3rd!

So beware if you read about these and decide you want one! Do research about the seller! Ask around if you have to! The extra day looking and researching will save you 2+ years of wasted growing time. Get it from a verified and fruited source if possible! Even if it costs $10 more it's worth it! How much $ will you put into that new plant before you get fruit? Way more than $10.
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Old 07-04-2017, 08:14 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Personally I find it deplorable. The selling of the wrong variety, knowingly, simply because 90% will never know and 90% of the rest won't complain. It REALLY irritates me that they lie and cheat people this way. I only wish SOMETHING could be done.
They are almost as low as politicians and ambulance chasing lawyers.
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https://sputinc7.wixsite.com/covwc

Varieties I supposedly bought: Manzano, Cavendish, Blue Java, Sweetheart, and Gros Michel.
What it seems I actually have: Brazilian, Cavendish, Namwah, Dwarf Red, Gros Michel, Pisang Ceylon, Veinte Cohol and SH 3640, and American Goldfinger. FHIA 1, Paggi and FHIA 17... Always room for one more.
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Old 07-04-2017, 08:45 PM   #18 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Not only do plants get sold under the wrong name but the end result is also being shared and shared under the wrong name. Most of my named bananas were wrong and the ones I have left unnamed will probably just stay that way.
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Old 07-04-2017, 09:03 PM   #19 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sputinc7 View Post
Personally I find it deplorable. The selling of the wrong variety, knowingly, simply because 90% will never know and 90% of the rest won't complain. It REALLY irritates me that they lie and cheat people this way. I only wish SOMETHING could be done.
They are almost as low as politicians and ambulance chasing lawyers.
True, but unlike with politicians, people are usually pretty happy with what they were cheated with. Don't get me wrong, I love my Blue Java, but if I would have to choose between Blue Java or Namwah as a dessert banana, I would have to choose the Namwah.
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Old 07-05-2017, 03:41 AM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

I have both the "fake" 'Ice Cream', sourced as a tissue cultured plant, and the "real" 'Ice Cream', reliably sourced as a sucker.

In my opinion, under my growing conditions, and in the context of ABB bananas, I do not find the fruits to be very similar. I certainly would not say that they are substitutes for one another. While I like them both, I would say that only the "real" one has a flavor and texture that could reasonably be compared with a rich, creamy ice cream. When frozen and eaten with chocolate syrup, it is as good a dessert as any that I have had. It is hard to imagine that I am actually just eating a single fruit, as the complexity and richness of flavor makes me think that it must be a dessert with many different ingredients, not just a banana with chocolate syrup.

The "fake" one is also quite delicious, and I can actually eat more of them at a time, as they do not seem overpoweringly rich in flavor. However, I do not believe that the flavor and texture of this fruit would cause me to compare it with ice cream (no more so than many other bananas).

For anyone who has purchased an 'Ice Cream' plant based on its flavor description, but is uncertain what they really have, I would highly recommend they track down the real thing from a reliable member of this forum.

This brings up a question that I have: Has anyone positively verified that ANY tissue cultured 'Ice Cream' banana sold in the United States is actually the real ‘Ney Mannan’ plant?
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