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Banana Identification Mystery Nanner? This is where you can get help to identify your banana plants. Upload some pics to your gallery and post a thread and let everyone know as much info that you have of the plant.


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Old 07-05-2017, 07:44 AM   #21 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy banana View Post
True, but unlike with politicians, people are usually pretty happy with what they were cheated with. Don't get me wrong, I love my Blue Java, but if I would have to choose between Blue Java or Namwah as a dessert banana, I would have to choose the Namwah.
I know what you mean, but being happy with being cheated or lied to still doesn't make it right.
If you go out to dinner and order chicken and they give you steak, you might like that more, but it's still not what you ordered, and some people would rather have the chicken.
Beside that, I do not like Namwah. Never had Blue Java. I don't call either one Ice Cream anymore.
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Varieties I supposedly bought: Manzano, Cavendish, Blue Java, Sweetheart, and Gros Michel.
What it seems I actually have: Brazilian, Cavendish, Namwah, Dwarf Red, Gros Michel, Pisang Ceylon, Veinte Cohol and SH 3640, and American Goldfinger. FHIA 1, Paggi and FHIA 17... Always room for one more.
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Old 07-05-2017, 07:58 AM   #22 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

I was just looking at the Musa Germplasm Info page at https://www.crop-diversity.org/mgis/ and the Taxonomy Browser page link https://www.crop-diversity.org/mgis/taxonomy?focus=93

These show one Ice Cream accession under the Musa Bluggoe (Orinoco) subgroup and under the Musa Ney Mannan subgroup, 3 Ice Cream accessions & 2 Blue Java (known in the US as Ice cream) accessions.

So if the plant shows some degree of a blue/silver bloom on the fruit and/or leaves (??) then the name is probably correct. ... While there may be some mislabeled or fake labeled plants on the market, but going just on the name of 'Ice Cream' is NOT sufficient to knowing or determining what plant variety/accession you have bought.

Also, it is interesting to note under the Musa Bluggoe (Orinoco) there are 60 accessions listed. I believe, I have the 'apple' and hope to verify it when it fruits. I did notice a defiant apple flavor from the fruit of the mother plant I got 4 pups from.
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Old 07-05-2017, 11:05 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

It's important to note that Orinoco is only in the blogge subgroup. And each listed accession is only different material collected from different locations. They could be the same they could be different. Each record is just a different collected source. Say they collected a pup from here in TX. Then they collect another pup from Mexico. They both may be the same but each would have its separate listing in the gene bank. Also the Apple is in the Taiwan gene bank. Most likely from over there somewhere.

Several of the blogge types are plantains. Like the Musa Pelipita and Musa Cardaba! I have both and they do look like huge thicker Orinocos haha. Pelipita is huge it's outgrowing my Saba this year.
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Old 07-05-2017, 11:27 AM   #24 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

basically that's what I assumed. For Bluggoe & Orinoco as being synonymous may or may not be technically correct, but many nana-heads assume they are. Which again points out the problem of nana plants just named 'Ice Cream' without additional cultivar information. ... So the plant collections I referenced above does not assume those samples are the same type/variety of until proven or dis-proved.

While I referenced the Germplasm Info pages, I did not include locally known nana varieties around the world also named 'Ice Cream'.
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Old 07-05-2017, 01:16 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwmax View Post
I was just looking at the Musa Germplasm Info page at https://www.crop-diversity.org/mgis/ and the Taxonomy Browser page link https://www.crop-diversity.org/mgis/taxonomy?focus=93

These show one Ice Cream accession under the Musa Bluggoe (Orinoco) subgroup and under the Musa Ney Mannan subgroup, 3 Ice Cream accessions & 2 Blue Java (known in the US as Ice cream) accessions.
Be very careful when referencing information from MGIS. It is not an authoritative source by any means, it is only a reflection of what is held in various collections around the world, and all of the information is submitted from those collections. It is not edited or curated except accessions in the ITC, in which case they are edited and curated but it's a very slow process which is not complete, so there is still a lot of inaccurate information.


Quote:
Originally Posted by edwmax View Post
So if the plant shows some degree of a blue/silver bloom on the fruit and/or leaves (??) then the name is probably correct. ... While there may be some mislabeled or fake labeled plants on the market, but going just on the name of 'Ice Cream' is NOT sufficient to knowing or determining what plant variety/accession you have bought.
This would not be a useful trait to compare plants with as most of the mislabled 'Ice Cream' are Pisang Awak cultivars which classically also have rather waxy fruit and plants.


Quote:
Originally Posted by edwmax View Post
basically that's what I assumed. For Bluggoe & Orinoco as being synonymous may or may not be technically correct, but many nana-heads assume they are. Which again points out the problem of nana plants just named 'Ice Cream' without additional cultivar information. ... So the plant collections I referenced above does not assume those samples are the same type/variety of until proven or dis-proved.

While I referenced the Germplasm Info pages, I did not include locally known nana varieties around the world also named 'Ice Cream'.
Bluggoe and Orinoco may be used as synonyms in some cases, but they have slightly different status as Bluggoe is the official subgroup name, whereas 'Orinoco' is just a common name for a common type of Bluggoe. All 'Orinoco' are Bluggoe, but not all Bluggoe are 'Orinoco'.


Understanding edible banana taxonomy involves two main components:

1. Understanding the subgroup system, with it's power and it's limitations
2. Compiling lists of synonyms and understanding the context in which they are used

In a sense, no cultivar name is incorrect if it is widely used, even if it's the same name used for different cultivars, but what is important then to understand is where is that name being used, and how common is it?

For example, in Hawaii 'Apple' normally refers to Pome type bananas, either dwarf or tall. In Florida, it normally refers to Silk type bananas. There is no sense in telling the entire population of Hawaii that 'Apple' is the wrong name, because it has been used for decades (maybe over 100 years?) and is so ingrained into the culture that it is a legitimate name, even though it's confusing when looking at the use of the name "Apple" in other places.


There is in fact a formal attempt at sorting out the synonym issue, and it exists in this very incomplete list, but at least it's a start.
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Old 07-07-2017, 08:38 AM   #26 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post
Understanding edible banana taxonomy involves two main components:

1. Understanding the subgroup system, with it's power and it's limitations
2. Compiling lists of synonyms and understanding the context in which they are used
Interesting read, Gabe. Do you know of any links that list all the cultivars under each genome group and sub groups? I tried to google it but only came up with what looks like incomplete lists or just the more popular cultivars of each group.

Since my zone is non-tropical on the border of 7b/8a, I like growing the more cold hardy edible cultivars, for example, tall Orinoco and tall Pisang Awak/Namwah to dry-store some larger pstems and pot up some pups in my basement over the winter. Since they are both in the ABB group, would the rest of the cultivars in this group also be more cold resistant than other groups?

Just by reading what people say, it seems that the genome groups that have a B in the group name are more cold hardy than the genome groups without a B in the name. Could be coincidence since I know just enough about the groups to be dangerous lol.
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Old 07-07-2017, 10:16 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

I think it is also important for people who purchase banana plants to realize that they might not get the plant they purchased.

I purchased a Praying Hands and Red Kru banana plant from an online nursery in 2014. The Praying Hands has produced its first bunch this year without fused fingers. The bananas on this plant do not look like the pictures of Praying Hands bananas I have seen on the .org. If I gave or sold a pup from this plant to someone else and told them it was Praying Hands just because that is what I purchased that would be terrible. Remember just because you buy a banana plant doesn't always mean you get what you purchased.

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Old 07-07-2017, 10:51 AM   #28 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lau View Post
...

I purchased a Praying Hands and Red Kru banana plant from an online nursery in 2014. The Praying Hands has produced its first bunch this year without fused fingers. The bananas on this plant do not look like the pictures of Praying Hands bananas I have seen on the .org. ...
My recollection is vague, but I recall that praying hand nana may not show the fussed fingers on the first year of flowering. You might recheck this, but don't throw that baby out with the wash water yet. .... May be some one else can clarify this.
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Old 07-07-2017, 12:28 PM   #29 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Maybe if online nurseries had it in bold red letters on their order page,

"You most likely will not receive the plant you request unless I feel like it or make a mistake and send the correct one."

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Varieties I supposedly bought: Manzano, Cavendish, Blue Java, Sweetheart, and Gros Michel.
What it seems I actually have: Brazilian, Cavendish, Namwah, Dwarf Red, Gros Michel, Pisang Ceylon, Veinte Cohol and SH 3640, and American Goldfinger. FHIA 1, Paggi and FHIA 17... Always room for one more.
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Old 07-07-2017, 05:48 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwmax View Post
My recollection is vague, but I recall that praying hand nana may not show the fussed fingers on the first year of flowering. You might recheck this, but don't throw that baby out with the wash water yet. .... May be some one else can clarify this.
That information is very encouraging. I think the plant is beautiful and the bananas look wonderful whatever kind it ends up being I hope it taste good.

Susan
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Old 07-07-2017, 09:47 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

I think your confusing double cavendish. It produces a single flower/bunch the first year then multiple the 2nd.

Praying Hands always produces fused hands. I'm pretty sure that is a fact. Gabe correct me if I am wrong.

Susan, post a pic of the flower/bunch on here we can tell for sure hopefully. I always enjoy your pictures anyway. Always beautiful plants!!
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Old 07-07-2017, 09:57 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

I posted pictures in the "Not Praying Hands" ID post.

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Old 07-08-2017, 05:23 AM   #33 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

That's not Praying Hands banana.
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:14 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: Ice Cream or Namwa?

There is a way to tell between between Blue Java and Nam Wah on medium sized trees. But it's only really useful if you have both trees in your collection. Blue Java doesn't have heavy blotches at the petiole base while Nam Wah does.
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