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Old 01-26-2014, 10:45 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: What root rot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olafhenny View Post
Again I see no evidence, which suggests that root rot would occur under the conditions.
I specified I have in none of my posts denied, that root rot can occur, but none under
my conditions. However bananas seem specifically inured against root rot through
excessive moisture. See the photos evidence below.

And please no more URLs about root rot, unless you can show, that it occurs in bananas
due to over-watering. I believe, that I have supplied sufficient evidence, that it does not.
So now I want to see some real evidence to the contrary, not just a plethora of URLs,
which do not address the subject on hand.





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Old 01-26-2014, 12:04 PM   #42 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: What root rot?

The programme researched fungal diseases in three banana species (Gold
Finger, Kandarian, and Manzano) grown in Georgia, but makes no reference to the
causes of the diseases. Significant is, that in order to cause healthy plants to
become diseased, they inoculated them with the previously isolated fungus,
They did not immerse them in water to achieve that. Accordingly this is no
evidence, that the fungus was caused by excess watering. It certainly does not
contradict my claim, that pouring lots of water into pots with drain holes at the
bottom, containing plants with green leaves, cannot cause root rot.

But thanks, Tony, at least there was some rot in banana roots involved in that
research abstract.

Olaf





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Old 01-26-2014, 02:31 PM   #43 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: What root rot?

Thank you, KJ for posting that picture. The close proximity of the swamp grass to the
base of the Banana suggests to me, that the elevation of the soil around the banana
is very close to the water level. However I doubt, that the skeptics of the “root rot
advisory brigade” will see it the same way.

I have a couple of similar photos, but when back in Vietnam, I will try to get a more
definitive picture, showing that the roots are actually in the water. That won’t be
easy, because rice fields, where such plants at the water’s edge can usually be
found, are typically fenced off from the roadways and I would have to get the camera
quite close to the water level to show the height of the ground around the banana.

Best,
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Old 01-26-2014, 03:03 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: What root rot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olafhenny View Post
The programme researched fungal diseases in three banana species (Gold
Finger, Kandarian, and Manzano) grown in Georgia, but makes no reference to the
causes of the diseases. Significant is, that in order to cause healthy plants to
become diseased, they inoculated them with the previously isolated fungus,
They did not immerse them in water to achieve that. Accordingly this is no
evidence, that the fungus was caused by excess watering. It certainly does not
contradict my claim, that pouring lots of water into pots with drain holes at the
bottom, containing plants with green leaves, cannot cause root rot.

But thanks, Tony, at least there was some rot in banana roots involved in that
research abstract.

Olaf





The way I understand it is,of course I'm not an engineer,is the fungus is pretty much everywhere.To much water,lack of oxygen, weakens the plant allowing the root rot to take hold. Even a fish will die in oxygen depleted water.
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:15 PM   #45 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: What root rot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunfish View Post
The way I understand it is,of course I'm not an engineer,is the fungus is pretty much everywhere.To much water,lack of oxygen, weakens the plant allowing the root rot to take hold. Even a fish will die in oxygen depleted water.

First off, (civil) engineering has as much to do with biology as bread baking. The
only touch points, which come to mind quickly are the storage of top soil to keep
it bio-active for re-application and digestion of organic matter in sewage treatment.

The conditions for development and growth of fungi vary greatly, as do the fungi
from the mushroom in your burger over root rot through to mildew. The only
common thread is moisture (or humidity) and temperature. Usually (but not always)
warmth is required.

We know, that not all plants are susceptible to mildew - and oxygen deprivation
is obviously not part of that, - as not all plants are prone to develop root rot. The
discussion here is whether bananas are, and I maintain, that they are not due to
watering.

Olaf





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Old 01-26-2014, 04:24 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: What root rot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olafhenny View Post

First off, (civil) engineering has as much to do with biology as bread baking. The
only touch points, which come to mind quickly are the storage of top soil to keep
it bio-active for re-application and digestion of organic matter in sewage treatment.

The conditions for development and growth of fungi vary greatly, as do the fungi
from the mushroom in your burger over root rot through to mildew. The only
common thread is moisture (or humidity) and temperature. Usually (but not always)
warmth is required.

We know, that not all plants are susceptible to mildew - and oxygen deprivation
is obviously not part of that, - as not all plants are prone to develop root rot. The
discussion here is whether bananas are, and I maintain, that they are not due to
watering.

Olaf





Name a plant that will not get root rot.


But thanks, Tony, at least there was some rot in banana roots involved in that
research abstract
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:31 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: What root rot?

Water Lily - root rot
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:33 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: What root rot?

What causes water hyacinths to not flourish? « The Pond Clinic Water Garden Centre
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Old 01-26-2014, 05:29 PM   #49 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: What root rot?

I grow a lot of my bananas in water. Mostly in aquaponics. Some in hydroponics.

When it's warm enough, they're fine. When it's too cool, they rot. (There's pretty much always some rotting going on, it's just that when it's sufficiently warm the growth rate exceeds the rot rate.)

I don't find it the least bit surprising that bananas are growing in soggy soil next to a rice paddy, since it's probably sufficiently warm. I bet almost all of the roots are up above the water level, though, in order to get sufficient oxygen.
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Old 01-26-2014, 05:31 PM   #50 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: What root rot?

Hi Tony,

I kinda chuckled, when I read that.
I had my own experience with water hyacinths. They did well in the small pond,
which is now my “tropical planter” and in the tiny pond/basin in our gazebo, until
the grapevines covering it created too much shade.

But in the big pond, approximately the size of an Olympic swimming pool, They
shrivelled up and died. I blamed that on residues of a herbicide, which somebody
had dumped into the water years earlier, until I learned, that Koi (we have them in
that pond) love to chew off the roots of water hyacinths.

Thus I suspect, that, since all the plants around it that pond do well, this expert has
probably missed the most obvious cause: fish in the pond. Since goldfish are also
members of the carp family, I presume the love for hyacinth roots goes for them as
well.

That is just to show, that you should be guided by experts, but do not trust them
completely.

DSC03806

These water hyacinths had their roots protected by large perforated pots,
kept afloat with a Styrofoam collar and set adrift in a pond with koi carp.




DSC03805

As you can see, they are doing well

Best,
Olaf





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Old 01-26-2014, 05:48 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Default Re: What root rot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olafhenny View Post
Hi Tony,

I kinda chuckled, when I read that.
I had my own experience with water hyacinths. They did well in the small pond,
which is now my “tropical planter” and in the tiny pond/basin in our gazebo, until
the grapevines covering it created too much shade.

But in the big pond, approximately the size of an Olympic swimming pool, They
shrivelled up and died. I blamed that on residues of a herbicide, which somebody
had dumped into the water years earlier, until I learned, that Koi (we have them in


that pond) love to chew off the roots of water hyacinths.

Thus I suspect, that, since all the plants around it that pond do well, this expert has
probably missed the most obvious cause: fish in the pond. Since goldfish are also
members of the carp family, I presume the love for hyacinth roots goes for them as
well.

That is just to show, that you should be guided by experts, but do not trust them
completely.

DSC03806

These water hyacinths had their roots protected by large perforated pots,
kept afloat with a Styrofoam collar and set adrift in a pond with koi carp.




DSC03805

As you can see, they are doing well

Best,
Olaf





Well this expert is probably not a Tropical Botanist
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Old 08-18-2014, 07:39 PM   #52 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: What root rot?

Root rot shows itself through brown or black spots on the stems of the leaves.
Asia's tropical weather makes bananas grow at least twice as fast as anywhere in USA west coast. Perhaps the fast growth in Asia compensates for the water because the water is used so quickly. Banana plants in Asia grow upward from a foot each day....sometimes 3 feet a day.

I live in dry San Diego and am still trying to find the right soil mix, watering balance for the growth of my banana plants. I killed one of my recent transplanted pups by over watering it. I'm trying again using a soil with better drainage (lots of pumice and sand in the dirt).

If you've never had root rot in your bananas then you must have a super power and can be "Musa Man", superhero of banana plants. You are welcome to come and save my banana plants when they need a rescue.
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Old 08-18-2014, 09:50 PM   #53 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: What root rot?

Hi Skiarun,

Are you sure, that over-watering caused the demise of your plants?

I live just north of the northern tip of the Sonoran Desert, HZ 6, annual rainfall 14". Thus
we are here even further removed from the balmy tropical climate than San Diego, which
is not as dry as we are here. I start the automatic irrigation system sometime in April and
leave it on until late October, right through our rainiest month of the year, June.

My plants get during all that time enough water for the dry months of July and August.
That means, that they get thoroughly soaked in June, when the ground water also rises.
We are located on top of an old river bed, which connects two lakes. so I can assure you,
that the corms get thoroughly soaked during the 5 to 6 weeks starting in the second half
of May and ending late June. No root rot ever.

I spend a couple of months almost annually somewhere in the Tropics. I have seen no sign
of bananas growing there any faster than here in my yard during summer, let alone 1 to 3
feet a day. Oh a new leaf may shoot out 12 inches a day (?), but the PS will grow only a
few inches in height per leaf.

Best,
Olaf




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Old 08-19-2014, 12:43 AM   #54 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: What root rot?

Well, I think you just have a special talent for growing bananas.

It could be the root rot is a result of soil conditions (aggravated by the water)....so, yes, it is possible it is something other than root rot alone.

I lived in Asia for 4 years (Hong Kong, Thailand, Philippines, India, etc.) and nearly lived on bananas.
Yes, I really did find that the banana trees grew at lightning speed.
Then again, they have a sort of fertilizer there that is rarely used in the United States...raw sewage.

I value your banana wisdom and look forward to more from you and I would really like to see your banana photos too if you have them.
My camera is in a coma, but I also hope to one day share pics of my humble potted orchard.
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Old 08-19-2014, 08:09 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Default Re: What root rot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olafhenny View Post
Are you sure, that over-watering caused the demise of your plants?

I live just north of the northern tip of the Sonoran Desert, HZ 6....
Well, you lost me Olaf... I thought that desert was zone 9? What about Canada?

Got a lil' experiment proving something to me... My temp at night has not fallen but a couple degrees below 70°F since I planted them more than a month ago.
I have water hyacinth too
Both are basjoo I separated at the same time when they were identical in height .
The water planted one has showed ugly growth.
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Old 08-19-2014, 02:20 PM   #56 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: What root rot?

Hi Justin,

interesting post. Let us first get the desert out of the way: Areas, with 250 mm annual
rainfall (precipitation) or less are classified as desert. That includes most, if not all of
the Antarctica. I let you figure out which hardiness zone that is.

Here in Penticton temperatures up to 105^F have been measured. We reach 100^F
most years. In Osoyoos, 40 miles south of here and still within the Sonoran Desert
temperatures of 109^F have been measured. But that is not the hottest place in
Canada. Lytton, BC, in the Frazer Canon, temperatures have gone as high as 112^F,
although it is not located within any desert. Some define ‘desert’ by vegetation. By that
measure the Sonoran is creeping northward. Antelope brush (also grease wood) has
now reached the south shore of Skaha Lake, just 8 miles south from my home, one of
the two lakes, which squeeze Penticton from north and south, thereby mitigating some
of the climate extremes, which are inherent to desert and semi-arid regions.

Hardiness zones on the other hand are governed by the expected min. temperatures
(here 5^F)

Now to the bananas with roots in water:
Your photo appears to corroborate, pending your confirmation, a quiet theory of mine,
that the rot in waterlogged banana roots has a lot more to do with oxygen content of the
water than with temperatures or growth rates. Look at the photo, with which I started
this thread: Lots of water surface exposed to rain and its oxygen enhancing splashing.

Vicky here my water bananas has constantly or often water
running through her pond (?), keeping up the oxygen levels. Vicky, please help me out
on this one.

The pond here: Growing a banana tree in a pond has a relatively large water
surface, onto which rain can splash and it may even be augmented by something else
creating a bit of turbulence.

Your pond, on the other hand, appears, judging form your photo to be quite serene and
have many other plants competing for oxygen crowding the surface. Again, Justin, I
have to ask you to help me out and tell me, if this is the case. If it is, a solution might be,
to add any water to the pond from some height to create some splash.

Best,
Olaf
PS I will ask Vicky now by PM, to tell us more about the conditions in her pond






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Old 08-19-2014, 06:29 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Red face Re: What root rot?

Sorry you kinda influenced me you live in Arizona or Cali>>>
Same desert I'm thinking of??? Sonoran Desert (I and familiar with the definition of a desert )



Nah, you are correct that I only run my water fountain and other water features about once a week so, not much oxygenation is going on with the root system. but but but
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olafhenny View Post
"If your banana has green
leaves and your pot has drain holes at the bottom, you are not getting root rot, no
matter how much you water......while you have green leaves on your plants your only worry about too much water should be leaching all the nutrients out of your soil."
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Old 08-19-2014, 07:59 PM   #58 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: What root rot?

My water bananas are in my ponds and not the ponds with filters or pumps. All but one has been in water since 2008 the other was in water since 2007. They are under water about 3 or 4 inches above the pots. They are planted in yard dirt in pots with holes. In winter they are in my basement setting in 3 inches of water up the side of the pots. In a south window. The basement has 50* at the coldest and 60* at the warmest all winter. And this is the first winter I lost one since 2007. My big bananas are in pots outside of the pond and some are in pots with feed tubs under them and setting in a few inches of water when it is real hot and dry. Sometime my husband dumps the water if they look wilted from too much water too long.

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Old 08-19-2014, 09:43 PM   #59 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: What root rot?

It looks, that I have fallen victim of some 'me tooism' I received my injection of false
information, while briefly retiring to Osoyoos, before ending up here in Penticton.
It turns out, that the good people of Osoyoos were so proud of their arid region,
that they stretched the definition a bit from 250mm to 300mm precip. and I fell for it.
See the article here:
About Osoyoos - South Okanagan - British Columbia
EXCERPT:
Osoyoos, An Oasis in The Desert.
Canada's only desert extends past Osoyoos Lake to Skaha Lake, and west up
the Similkameen Valley towards Keremeos, approximately 24 km. (15 miles).
This area receives an average rainfall of less than 12 inches per year. The
desert plants and animals of this area are found nowhere else in Canada.
The "Osoyoos Arid Biotic Zone" is a continuation of the Sonoran Desert that
extends from Mexico right up to the Okanagan Valley. While irrigation has made
Osoyoos a lush green oasis, it is interesting to note that the desert continues
undisturbed where there is no water.


It appears we here in BC were not the only ones with the desire to call a bit of
'desert’ our own. Our neighbours down south seem to have similar aspirations.
Deserts in Eastern Washington | USA Today
Desert or Steppe?

EXCERPT:
Technically, most of eastern Washington outside of foothills and mountains is semi-arid
steppe, or plain, not true desert. It all depends, however, on what criteria you’re using
to define a desert.

And...
Mountaineers Books: Best Desert Hikes: Washington

EXCERPT:
If you're used to tight, tree-lined trails through (often-dripping) evergreens, it's time
for a guidebook to an entirely different world: the high desert of central and eastern
Washington. It's desert, yes -- but not the Lawrence of Arabia kind. This landscape
of sagebrush and rimrock canyons is starkly beautiful and rich in plant and animal life.
It offers mild temperatures in fall, prime wildlife viewing in winter, and an explosion of
wildflowers in spring.


Thus, if I have misled anybody, I apologize and offer the excuse, that I have been
misled myself


Best,
Olaf





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Old 08-19-2014, 09:55 PM   #60 (permalink)
 
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Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada
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Name: Olaf
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Default Re: What root rot?

Hi Vicky,

I was hoping you would tell us about the water in your pond, i.e, is there anything,
which would add or renew the oxygen therein, such as water flowing through, a
fountain or anything else, which would agitate the water and thereby add oxygen?


Thanks,
Olaf





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