View Full Version : Palms for zone 6
BananaLee
10-08-2009, 05:56 PM
Hey guys! I have a form on this with bananas you can check out! ( http://www.bananas.org/f15/bananas-zone-6-a-9892.html )This is a list of palms that have survived zone 6.
List
Nannorrhops ritchiana
Livistona chinensis
Washingtonia filifera
Trithrinax campestris
Chamaerops humilis
Chamaerops humilis 'cerifera'
Chamaerops humilis 'Vulcano'
Rhapidophyllum hystrix
Serenoa repens
Sabal x texensis 'Brazoria'
Sabal birmingham
Sabal louisiana
Sabal Minor
Sabal minor 'McCurtain'
Sabal Palmetto
Sabal tamaulipas
Trachycarpus manipur
Trachycarpus takil
Trachycarpus wagnerianus
Trachycarpus fortunei
Trachycarpus nanus
Trachycarpus latisectus
The McCurtain has survived -24F (-31C)!!!!! If you have any questions, I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability. Thanx! God Bless! BananaLee
Randy4ut
10-08-2009, 07:55 PM
Would love to see half of these growing in zone 6 for more than a few mild winters!!! Also, love to see more than maybe two on this list to grow in 6 long term. I grow or have grown many of the listed varieties above in my zone 7a/b, and only a handful will handle my area with minimal protection. But then again, if you build the necessary protection for just about any palm, you can grow them anywhere!!!
BananaLee
10-08-2009, 08:03 PM
Would love to see half of these growing in zone 6 for more than a few mild winters!!! Also, love to see more than maybe two on this list to grow in 6 long term. I grow or have grown many of the listed varieties above in my zone 7a/b, and only a handful will handle my area with minimal protection. But then again, if you build the necessary protection for just about any palm, you can grow them anywhere!!!
Very true! I'm not talking about glass protection but covering like a banana with straw, pine needles etc. and covering with burlap. Most of these are just with a little or a lot of mulch. God Bless! BananaLee:woohoonaner:
Randy4ut
10-08-2009, 08:12 PM
How long have you grown all these different types of palms in your area? Also, how large are they curtently and how large were they when you planted them out? Would love to see pics of your palms!!!!
Here is a link for some folks that are not that familiar with hardy palms. Hope this helps people that want to grow palms and are not discouraged when they encounter problems with some of the above choices. I just have a hard time imagining some of these palms surviving with just mulch in my 7 a/b, much less your 6!
A quick reference to hardy palms:
SPS Hardy Palms: A Quick Reference (http://www.sepalms.org/Hardy%20Palms/SPS_Hardy_Palms_A_Quick_Reference.htm)
More detailed info on hardy palms:
http://www.sepalms.org/Hardy%20Palms/The%20Palm%20Reader.pdf
saltydad
10-09-2009, 12:25 AM
I really want to add my skepticism in a friendly way. I'm also in 7a and have grown T. fortunei, R. hystrix, L. chinensis and S. mexicana and S. minor with success by covering with a thick mulch (I mean at least a foot or so over the plant height) of straw, and burlap for the bigger plants. But I have also lost a R. hystrix unprotected, and a B. eriospatha with protection. And my L. chinensis died this past winter even with protection, as did a S. minor McCurtain. These are not easy plants to overwinter in zone 6 or 7. A beginner would be well instructed to stay with T. fortunei and R. hystrix until a number of years experience, IMHO.
RobG7aChattTN
10-09-2009, 12:27 AM
I think if you changed that to zone 7 you would still be talking about surviving the occasional winter unprotected. You really would need a hot, dry climate to get most of those to survive a true zone 7 winter and even then probably not several zone 7 winters in a row. I'd say that unprotected you'd be lucky to get Sabal minor and R. hystrix to survive but they both need lots of summer heat to thrive in the long term. I think your protection methods would have to all include heated mini greenhouses. The furthest north I've seen the following palms survive without protection are:
Nannorhops ritchianna.........Anniston, AL z8a
Washingtonia filifera............Dallas, TX 8a
Sabal 'Birmingham'...............Tulsa, OK 7a
S. palmetto.........................really 8a without protection
S. louisiana..........................maybe 7a
S. 'Brazoria'..........................maybe 7a
S. ssp. 'Tamaulipas'................maybe 7a, probably less
Trachycarpus fortunei..........maybe 7a...maybe
T. wagnerianus....................maybe 7a
T. ukhrulensis (Manipur).........UNKNOWN
T. takil................................Rome, Italy
T. nanus.............................maybe 7a
T. princeps...........................UNKNOWN
Chamaerops humilis.................Atlanta, GA 8a
C. humilis 'Volcano'..................exact same as above
C. humilis 'Cerifera'..................probalby not much more cold hardy
Trithrinax campestris...............I don't know anyone who's had one long term
That being said, I'm trying all of them here in 7a as well as a few others. I expect to lose most of them and have to protect quite a few. In zone 6 you will really have a hard time. Palms don't go dormant like bananas. You can't just pile up the mulch. I don't want to be a bummer, but I want you to have realistic expectations.
Jack Daw
10-09-2009, 02:12 AM
Chamaerops humilis will definitely not survive 7a temperatures, as won't many other plants. Washingtonia too.
Nannorrhopses might be true, but you forgot to add that you shoudl be in a really dry and hot climate (at least in summer) for them to thrive. They hate wet climates and soils rich in minerals.
RobG7aChattTN
10-09-2009, 06:15 AM
That's true. I just re-read my post and realized that I did a poor job of explaining that filifera and humilis will not survive any true 7a temps without protection. I had a little blurb at the top about summer heat and dry winters, but didn't really put the info with the species. I am hopeful that Nannrohops ritchianna 'Kashmir' will prove more tolerant of winter moisture. I'd also like to point out that where I have put "UNKNOWN" I'm not just saying that I personally don't know but that absolutely no one knows. Even true takil has only that one palm in Rome as an example of cold hardiness. The true species is only recently in cultivation and has not been proven. Where I've said "maybe" I'm saying optimistically that is the coldest they might possibly make it. I don't mean to imply that I'm guessing and have no idea. My list is really optimistic as someone in 7a that hopes to grow palms. For me, being completely realistic means R. hystrix, S. minor, S. 'Birmingham', S. 'louisiana', and perhaps T. fortunei/wagnerianus (but without protection expect to lose some in cold winters). The others are experimental.
Jack Daw
10-09-2009, 06:40 AM
That's true. I just re-read my post and realized that I did a poor job of explaining that filifera and humilis will not survive any true 7a temps without protection. I had a little blurb at the top about summer heat and dry winters, but didn't really put the info with the species. I am hopeful that Nannrohops ritchianna 'Kashmir' will prove more tolerant of winter moisture. I'd also like to point out that where I have put "UNKNOWN" I'm not just saying that I personally don't know but that absolutely no one knows. Even true takil has only that one palm in Rome as an example of cold hardiness. The true species is only recently in cultivation and has not been proven. Where I've said "maybe" I'm saying optimistically that is the coldest they might possibly make it. I don't mean to imply that I'm guessing and have no idea. My list is really optimistic as someone in 7a that hopes to grow palms. For me, being completely realistic means R. hystrix, S. minor, S. 'Birmingham', S. 'louisiana', and perhaps T. fortunei/wagnerianus (but without protection expect to lose some in cold winters). The others are experimental.
Regarding the takil, there's a specimen about 60km from here to west, in Austria. It's a broderzone 7a/b and the palm is thriving there without any significant problems. To compare, Jubaea chilensis would have to be heated up to survive those temps. Takil is about 15 years old.
turtile
10-09-2009, 08:26 AM
Chamaerops humilis var cerifera is much more cold hardy than the normal one. Mine has survived 4.9F (reading from my weather station) with no protection (heavy burn). I planted it from as a 7 gallon plant 2 years ago. The first year it went through 14F with no protection and only lost the main growing point. This year, every growing point survived. I know someone growing a regular one nearby and he has to protect it below 20F.
The low of 4.9F really didn't do the damage but a late year snow storm. The snow stayed on the ground for five days along with heavy winds, completely clear sky (stronger sun) and sub-freezing daytime temperatures. I even had a 3 gallon Rhapidophyllum hystrix die (which I expected).
Weather data here:
Weather Station History : Weather Underground (http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KDELEWES2&graphspan=custom&month=1&day=1&year=2009&monthend=3&dayend=30&yearend=2009)
After 14F - first year - no protection:
http://naturefoto.org/data/555/humilis.jpg
After last winter - 5F - no pretection (2nd year in ground - the front portion somehow got weed wacked):
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4674/choct.jpg
Randy4ut
10-09-2009, 09:46 AM
Thanks for sharing your experiences on the Chamaerops humilis var cerifera. The problems we have in the southeast is not so much the cold as it is more the cold in combination with our normal wet winters. The cold doesn't actually kill it. It is more the moisture getting into the growth spear and then freezing. If one can keep a marginal palm dry in the winter, they are alot more likely to have success with it, in the southeast at least....
BananaLee
10-09-2009, 11:28 AM
People, these are just proven things, I don't mean to argue. I don't care if yours died or not (well acualy I do!) But it's your own mistake. Sorry about your palms dieing saltydad but that sounds incredible that they died. In Troy Michigan, it went down to -20F (-29C) and a man I know from there had his Rhapidophyllum Hystrix remain evergreen all year long. All but one of his palms died. But his Serenoa repens, Trachycarpus Fortunei's, And sabal Minor's survived. You guys in zone 7/8 I've notice always do the same thing, you think your fine and you don't protect anything (or not enough) and it dies. But not all of you guys do that which is good. Another problem is where you plant it. A needle palm can die on the north side of the house in zone 7 but survive the south or west side of the house in zone 5 (with mulch of course). Snow helps a lot. It keeps the plant insulated at 32F (0C) when the temps are in the low 20's (-7's) and high teens. A big tip is you want to keep them dry! Also the seasons. In Michigan, we have great weather for palms and bananas. It all has to do with the Great Lakes. Our summers get over 100F (38C) at times and we have very high humidity. One of the most important is our Autumns. This is when the Great Lakes come in handy. Our Autumns get gradually (and slowly) colder thus preparing the plants and giving them time to prepare and bundle up for the winter. We also get a lot of snow which, like I said before, helps a ton. Also, trachy palms defoliate most of the time here. So when a palm defoliates, don't think it's dead, 'cause it's not. Hope this gets you a better look at things. I appreciate your knowledge everybody. I appreciate the cool photo of the Chamaerops humilis var cerifera, I didn't know much about them, thanks! God Bless! BananaLee:drum:
BananaLee
10-09-2009, 11:38 AM
How long have you grown all these different types of palms in your area? Also, how large are they curtently and how large were they when you planted them out? Would love to see pics of your palms!!!!
Here is a link for some folks that are not that familiar with hardy palms. Hope this helps people that want to grow palms and are not discouraged when they encounter problems with some of the above choices. I just have a hard time imagining some of these palms surviving with just mulch in my 7 a/b, much less your 6!
A quick reference to hardy palms:
SPS Hardy Palms: A Quick Reference (http://www.sepalms.org/Hardy%20Palms/SPS_Hardy_Palms_A_Quick_Reference.htm)
More detailed info on hardy palms:
http://www.sepalms.org/Hardy%20Palms/The%20Palm%20Reader.pdf
Thanks Randy4tut! I really appreciate your knowledge! To tell you the truth, the palms listed are reported to grow here, but I am going to grow a lot of these! People from my area have palms as well as over some parts of southern Michigan (though I don't travel much but I here reports) Trachy palms here are usually 10-15ft tall i think. Mine just started to form 5in fan leaves!:ha: I did find in the garbage three livistona palms with two foot wide leaves! The funny thing is that I prayed to The Blessed Mother for three in a clump and a week later I GOT ONE!!! She always answers my prayers! :goteam:
BananaLee
10-09-2009, 11:44 AM
I'm going to try to plant Sabal Uresana, Sabal Louisiana,and I heard some where (I forgot! lol) that butia capitata may survive zone 6 so I'll give it a whirl!
BananaLee
10-09-2009, 11:48 AM
I really recommend Nearly Native Nursery ( Nearly Native Nursery - Nursery specializing in growing and selling southeastern native plants for all landscaping needs. (http://nearlynativenursery.com/) )
people are having more success with there palms because there pots are deep so the roots are strong. There the BEST in the US. ( The scoop on 'A Nearly Native Nursery ' (http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/c/759/) ) I would highly recommend them! Thanx! God Bless! BananaLee
Randy4ut
10-09-2009, 11:58 AM
All I am going to say to you, Lee, is that I wish you the best of luck and hope you learn and are willing to listen to folks that have been growing these plants for years!!! I would still love to see the pics of your palms that you say survive your climate with NO protection.
Here is a link to my backyard and when you have time, take a look and then share yours!!!
Most of the pics are located in subfolders listed on the lefthand side of the main page!!!
Pictures by randy4ut - Photobucket (http://s113.photobucket.com/albums/n225/randy4ut/)
BananaLee
10-09-2009, 12:06 PM
Thanks! I LOVE your pictures!! Next year (when I have more palms!:ha:) I'll post pics of my palms! Actually, I'm gonna take a pic of my livistona palm right now! I do appreciate everybody's advice! And don't get me wrong, in zone 6 you need protection on everything!!! Thanx! God Bless!!! BananaLee:bananarow::bananaflipflop::bananabeard::giveflowersnan a::pinwheelnaner::banananinja::blueskirtnaner::bungejumpnaner:
bigdog
10-09-2009, 05:07 PM
No one argue with me all right! These are PROVEN!!!
Mo one argue with you? LOL!!! You can't expect to put a list of palms up like that and NOT expect an argument. Personally, I think you are just trying to start an argument, because anyone who has grown palms in zone 7 for a few years and has experimented with those palms can tell you that none of them are reliably hardy to zone 7a, with the possible exceptions of Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor, and maybe S. sp. 'Birmingham', and that's only after being established for several years first. I have personally lost Rhapidophyllum (the main trunk) in a zone 7 winter due to cold. I would love to see some pictures, especially of the 10-15 feet tall Trachycarpus fortunei that are all over southern Michigan.
:pics:
Frank
BananaLee
10-09-2009, 05:47 PM
Please, I am not trying to start an argument here, I just wanted people to have a little hope who live in these cold climates. I have only one picture at the time of my trachy palm and when I get the chance I will post pics of large trachys. 10-15ft trachys are not common but they are planted in southern Michigan.
Abnshrek
10-09-2009, 05:52 PM
Sounds like you guys need some freez pruf, heat tapes or a heated greenhouse.. Pindo's do get a 2ft diameter trunk so don't plant to close to the house & such... good luck.
BananaLee
10-09-2009, 05:54 PM
Thank you! I hear of Freezpruf and were do I get it?
Randy4ut
10-09-2009, 06:28 PM
Sounds like you guys need some freez pruf, heat tapes or a heated greenhouse.. Pindo's do get a 2ft diameter trunk so don't plant to close to the house & such... good luck.
It will take alot more than Frezpruf to keep most of the palms on the above list from dying in Southern Michigan!!! I have 3 butias here in 7a/b and cover them with double layer of frost cloth and have a 150watt light bulb inside of the frost cloth for when temps drop into low teens, upper single digits, and still get some burn on the fronds...
saltydad
10-09-2009, 07:46 PM
Here is a pic of the protection I used on my larger T. fortunei. It's the fellow with the black plastic over burlap warap over straw mulch. The needle palm died because I stupidly decided not to protect it after 2 years of successful protection. The windmill died in spite of the protection you can see. Another windmill of the same size and with the same protection survived, albeit with leaf burn, 10 feet away. In 7a winters are tough, with an especially cold or wet one every so often that really wipes out most of the palms except for needles UNLESS heat is provided. (And you can see by the frozen pond this past winter was not too comfy.)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=24722&size=1
BananaLee
10-10-2009, 09:22 AM
Saltydad and Randy4ut, do you guys get a lot of snow or none, cause that makes a big difference. A Washingtonia filifera survived -11F with just snow for mulch. ( Floridata: Washingtonia filifera (http://www.floridata.com/ref/W/wash_fil.cfm) ) It was a mature specimen though. Palms Don't Grow Here book states with the right protection (like on the south side of the house and a foot or two of mulch) it can survive zone 6. When I say it can survive zone 6 I always mean with protection, any protection except for glass green house. I'm planing on growing Washingtonia Filifera next year and I'll tell you how it does.
BananaLee
10-10-2009, 09:27 AM
You can't just pile up the mulch. I don't want to be a bummer, but I want you to have realistic expectations. Yes you can actually. I don't mean all, just some. A Trachycarpus wagnerianus survived zone 6 with just a foot of pine mulch. ( an excellent palm for zone 6 - Trachycarpus Wagnerianus - Palms & Cycads Forum - GardenWeb (http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/palms/msg11120244598.html) ) The man in Troy told me if you have it on the south side (or south west, the warmest parts) all you have to protect it with is a foot or two with mulch. That's all he does. Don't worry, your not being a bummer! lol
BananaLee
10-10-2009, 09:37 AM
Sorry about your palms dieing saltydad, but that's ok, we all make mistakes.:o Do you guys plant it on the north or east side of your house or the south or west side. Never plant palms on the north or east sides of the house cause the arctic blast of wind will surely kill it. If your winters are wet, that's a big problem, you want to keep it as dry as possible. Trust me, (though you probably lost my trust by now lol!) you will have a lot more success.:goteam::ropingnaner:
Randy4ut
10-10-2009, 09:44 AM
Let me tell you something.... ALL my palms and subtropicals are on the south side of my house!!! For a 15 year old young man, you sure seem to know quite a bit, but experience is worth more than you could EVER imagine. Another thing, don't believe everything you read on the internet. Just grow it and let the proof show for itself!!!! When you have a few years experience with growing palms, you MAY be able to talk the talk!!! In the meantime, please don't give folks that read this have the misguided illustions of what can or can't be done. Someone might just take you seriously, and be EXTREMELY disappointed when their results are not what you claim!!!
I am THROUGH with this conversation!!!!
BananaLee
10-10-2009, 09:49 AM
Sorry sir, I didn't mean at all to upset you in any way possible. I know I can't believe every thing that's why I am going to try and plant some if I can afford it. I didn't mean to upset you. If this is bothering you you can delete this post if you want. I'm sorry. God Bless. BananaLee
turtile
10-10-2009, 01:26 PM
I planted most of palms on the SE to ESE side of my house. Too much sun during sub-zero day time highs or extended frozen ground isn't good since the plant can no longer take up water and the tender new growth is the first to go. The SE is also more protected from NW winds.
BananaLee
10-10-2009, 03:22 PM
Thank you for the info!
saltydad
10-10-2009, 03:26 PM
One of the problems with last winter was the paucity of snow. Normally we have a few (at least) real good snowstorms, and indeed the snow helps to insulate. Last winter, bupkis!
Let me tell you something.... ALL my palms and subtropicals are on the south side of my house!!! For a 15 year old young man, you sure seem to know quite a bit, but experience is worth more than you could EVER imagine. Another thing, don't believe everything you read on the internet. Just grow it and let the proof show for itself!!!! When you have a few years experience with growing palms, you MAY be able to talk the talk!!! In the meantime, please don't give folks that read this have the misguided illustions of what can or can't be done. Someone might just take you seriously, and be EXTREMELY disappointed when their results are not what you claim!!!
I am THROUGH with this conversation!!!!
:lurk:I know Zero about Palms
But I'd just like to break in for a min on a few points:
1. I'm 15. I've grown timber bamboos for 5 years now and I know from Experience that 10 year olds LUV jungles.... I did :) !! Totally forget English gardens, though :ha:, now way, not even now!
Both the Phyllostachys Viridis & Phyllostachys Rubromarginata are reported to be Marginal in my zone (7).
2. I'm 15. I've grown (by over-wintering (dormant)) Blue Javas (Ice Cream nanners) for 3 years now. I know from Experience just how to successfully keep them alive & healthy in my zone (7). I started with one, now I have 11 very healthy 7-14' Blue Javas.
BTW, I'm Very indebted to BIGDOG for valuable Over-wintering info I read in his posts, Thanx :) !!
3. My galleries are Loaded with around 500 photos that show the results of my work.
4. Randy4ut: I've read lots of good advice that you've offered in this thread But.... Patience.... Takes time for newbies to adjust & adapt. (And yes, I admit, especially young ones :o). I remember I was a pretty hard-case, myself, back in May when I first joined. But some members (that I'll care a lot about for the rest of my life) were kind enough to help me to fit in (without anger). I hope they realize how much that means to me.
5. Let's all try to keep in mind, the whole reason for a thread is NOT to read the thread-initiator's comments & just drop it there.
The purpose of a thread is so that members can see Lots of different view-points & decide for themselves what's best. Yes, newbies should NOT believe everything that they read on the internet.... but then neither should people reading a thread.... It's ALWAYS best to read a lot & then make a final, best-possible, decision.
Like I've said in lots of Intros, "It's a very friendly and informative forum. Frustration & anger ARE counter-productive.
Finally, Thanx guys :) !! I don't even grow palms & I've learned Tons about them just from reading this thread.... Dont see how anybody could mess up with all this great info!
Have been getting REAL interested in the Pindo Palm, though! Heard that it makes about 50 pounds of fruit that jelly can be made out of! If anyone has had any luck with it in zone-7, I'd totally LUV to hear about it. Thanx :) !
RobG7aChattTN
10-10-2009, 05:09 PM
Hey Eric, if you are in OKC and into palms you need to go over to Alligator Alley...the pet store. He's got quite a few palms there. His prices are a bit high. Literally a few paces down the road from that place is a guy named Don Moorhead. He's been into palms for something like 25 years or so. You'd be blown away by his place. He overwinters some W. robusta, but he totally wraps the trunks in insulation and plastic. Anyhow, he's got tons of different Sabals and he often has palms at good prices. Off of that same road is the campus of the OU school of agriculture. They have some nice S. minors (McCurtain) and they sell them out of their greenhouse for good prices.
RobG7aChattTN
10-10-2009, 05:21 PM
Please, I am not trying to start an argument here, I just wanted people to have a little hope who live in these cold climates. I have only one picture at the time of my trachy palm and when I get the chance I will post pics of large trachys. 10-15ft trachys are not common but they are planted in southern Michigan.
I remember living in Baltimore and seeing places with huge queen palms and mexican fan palms. I wondered what they did with them in the winter. Well, they just left them. They all died and in the spring they were replaced. They didn't survive. The just replaced them. I don't know how they justify the expense, but apparently they did. I think there is a chance that what you've seen are W. robusta and they just replace them every year. I seriously doubt that a T. fortunei without serious protection covering the ENTIRE palm could survive a single winter anywhere outside in Michigan.
RobG7aChattTN
10-10-2009, 05:26 PM
Regarding the takil, there's a specimen about 60km from here to west, in Austria. It's a broderzone 7a/b and the palm is thriving there without any significant problems. To compare, Jubaea chilensis would have to be heated up to survive those temps. Takil is about 15 years old.
There are only two real T. takil in cultivation older than maybe 3 years old. There is one in the Rome Botanical Garden and one in the garden of Beccari in Florence. The palm was lost until the guys from rarepalmseeds went to Nainital and collected seeds. The sold them all over the world and they are really big palms now. Unfortunately they are not true takil (and Gibbons and Spanner of rarepalmseeds have admitted their mistake). Those palms are basically fortunei, but more robust and perhaps more cold hardy. True T. takil is untested except for those two specimens I listed. They may turn out to be more cold hardy, but no one knows for sure.
Hey Eric, if you are in OKC and into palms you need to go over to Alligator Alley...the pet store. He's got quite a few palms there. His prices are a bit high. Literally a few paces down the road from that place is a guy named Don Moorhead. He's been into palms for something like 25 years or so. You'd be blown away by his place. He overwinters some W. robusta, but he totally wraps the trunks in insulation and plastic. Anyhow, he's got tons of different Sabals and he often has palms at good prices. Off of that same road is the campus of the OU school of agriculture. They have some nice S. minors (McCurtain) and they sell them out of their greenhouse for good prices.
First, Levi: Go ahead & give it a shot :) !! They told me my Robert Young bamboo would never survive Oklahoma & it has for 5 years now!! Would Luv to see how your Palms do up there :) !!
Totally Thanx, Rob :) !! I will Def check those out, yay!! BTW, do ya know if any of those places carry a Pindo Palm? Would really Luv one of those, Yes!!
BYE
RobG7aChattTN
10-10-2009, 05:38 PM
[QUOTE=BananaLee;102331]Saltydad and Randy4ut, do you guys get a lot of snow or none, cause that makes a big difference. A Washingtonia filifera survived -11F with just snow for mulch. (
I'm afraid you are the victim of a bad conversion. The website says -11F (-11.7C) Well, -11.7C is 10.94F or basically +11F. That is pretty amazing for a well established filifera, even if for only a short period. -11F will kill any unprotected filifera in a normal weather situation.
Jack Daw
10-10-2009, 06:01 PM
There are only two real T. takil in cultivation older than maybe 3 years old. There is one in the Rome Botanical Garden and one in the garden of Beccari in Florence. The palm was lost until the guys from rarepalmseeds went to Nainital and collected seeds. The sold them all over the world and they are really big palms now. Unfortunately they are not true takil (and Gibbons and Spanner of rarepalmseeds have admitted their mistake). Those palms are basically fortunei, but more robust and perhaps more cold hardy. True T. takil is untested except for those two specimens I listed. They may turn out to be more cold hardy, but no one knows for sure.
Indeed it is a takil. And it is from the seed collected in Rome Botanical Garden. So possibly a takil cross. The man collected the seeds personally.
RobG7aChattTN
10-11-2009, 07:32 AM
Well, that does change things. In fact, it could be a full takil in that case. Sometimes they have hermaphroditic flowers (although more usually on medium sized trees). The shorter trees tend to be male, with more hermaphroditic flowers as they transition to female as they mature. The one in Rome is very old and less likely to have hermaphroditic flowers. I personally don't know if it is reported to be male or female but I do believe there are fortunei planted nearby. I wonder if it is a hybrid or an errant fortunei seed he found. I always wondered if anyone ever got seeds off of the one in Rome but I've never heard of anyone doing so.
Jack Daw
10-11-2009, 09:24 AM
Well, that does change things. In fact, it could be a full takil in that case. Sometimes they have hermaphroditic flowers (although more usually on medium sized trees). The shorter trees tend to be male, with more hermaphroditic flowers as they transition to female as they mature. The one in Rome is very old and less likely to have hermaphroditic flowers. I personally don't know if it is reported to be male or female but I do believe there are fortunei planted nearby. I wonder if it is a hybrid or an errant fortunei seed he found. I always wondered if anyone ever got seeds off of the one in Rome but I've never heard of anyone doing so.
I think there are much more of takils in Europe, than many people are led to believe, because I know of about 5 that are more than 10 years old and 100% originate from Rome takil. I don't know about the line purity though.
BananaLee
10-11-2009, 01:19 PM
Winters coming, I have a trachycarpus fortunei and a livistona chinensis and well see how it goes. Wish me luck guys!
BananaLee
10-11-2009, 01:22 PM
I does sound strange that a washingtonia filifera will survive zone 6. I'm a little concerned myself, so when a find one, I'll plant one and we will see what happens! I luv pushing the limits!
RobG7aChattTN
10-11-2009, 02:58 PM
Indeed it is a takil. And it is from the seed collected in Rome Botanical Garden. So possibly a takil cross. The man collected the seeds personally.
The only mention I could locate stated that the Rome takil is male. That might not be right, but there are other Trachys planted around so the seeds could be from one of them. The Rome takil is so tall that even if it is female seeds found on the ground would be hard to attribute to that palm alone.
BananaLee
11-27-2009, 05:26 PM
I remember living in Baltimore and seeing places with huge queen palms and mexican fan palms. I wondered what they did with them in the winter. Well, they just left them. They all died and in the spring they were replaced. They didn't survive. The just replaced them. I don't know how they justify the expense, but apparently they did. I think there is a chance that what you've seen are W. robusta and they just replace them every year. I seriously doubt that a T. fortunei without serious protection covering the ENTIRE palm could survive a single winter anywhere outside in Michigan.
Yo, Michigan's not as cold as most think. and I'm not dumb, I know what a trachy looks like. I know someone who has some tall trachys and plants them on the south side of his house and just mulches it. Since we're in continental climate, were more like zone 6/7. Just to give you a better insight on the climate here. We might have cold winters but we also have hot summers (record hot was 112F {44C }) Maybe what you thought was dead washingtonias was probably defoliated ones, you never know! :)
RobG7aChattTN
11-27-2009, 06:32 PM
Yo, Michigan's not as cold as most think. and I'm not dumb, I know what a trachy looks like. I know someone who has some tall trachys and plants them on the south side of his house and just mulches it. Since we're in continental climate, were more like zone 6/7. Just to give you a better insight on the climate here. We might have cold winters but we also have hot summers (record hot was 112F {44C }) Maybe what you thought was dead washingtonias was probably defoliated ones, you never know! :)
Well, one thing I do know is that an unprotected Washingtonia (or any queen palm) will never survive a single winter in Baltimore. There are a few long term Trachies...but just a few. Now, I do know that Michigan has a few warm areas (right up on the lake) but even a borderline 6/7 is not considered long term unprotected Trachie territory. I'd really like to know what temps your friend's Trachies have endured. I can't imagine his luck will hold out for many more winters. I've had spear pull on most of mine the last few winters down here in 7a/b! Mulch only protects the roots...not the crown which is where the growth bud is. Once that dies the whole palm is doomed. As far as the Baltimore Washingtonias are concerned, I did talk to a guy who overwintered his by cutting all the fronds off, wrapping them in insulation and then black plastic. He had kept them alive for quite a few winters that way. He was also on the much milder eastern shore. I also know of some in Oklahoma City that have lived for quite a few years with that level of protection, but that guy killed a lot of Washingtonias before he found a few that were more cold hardy than average.
BananaLee
11-27-2009, 09:03 PM
Well, one thing I do know is that an unprotected Washingtonia (or any queen palm) will never survive a single winter in Baltimore. There are a few long term Trachies...but just a few. Now, I do know that Michigan has a few warm areas (right up on the lake) but even a borderline 6/7 is not considered long term unprotected Trachie territory. I'd really like to know what temps your friend's Trachies have endured. I can't imagine his luck will hold out for many more winters. I've had spear pull on most of mine the last few winters down here in 7a/b! Mulch only protects the roots...not the crown which is where the growth bud is. Once that dies the whole palm is doomed. As far as the Baltimore Washingtonias are concerned, I did talk to a guy who overwintered his by cutting all the fronds off, wrapping them in insulation and then black plastic. He had kept them alive for quite a few winters that way. He was also on the much milder eastern shore. I also know of some in Oklahoma City that have lived for quite a few years with that level of protection, but that guy killed a lot of Washingtonias before he found a few that were more cold hardy than average. First, I never said unprotected, in zone 6/7 you always need protection :). But first of all, we had a record cold winter of -20F and his trachys survived, only one of his palms died. He a professional tropical expert so I think he knows what he's doing, his luck held tight! Oh and on the other thing about the washingtonia surviving and the site said -11F (-11C) well, I read a book and they had the exact same thing saying that washingtonias survived -11F but in brackets it said (-24C) so it did survive -11F. And I WILL takes pics in the winter and we will see how my palms will do!! I'm Done!!!!
Abnshrek
11-27-2009, 09:08 PM
Anyone can do anything where-ever they live if they invest enough time or $$ to a project.. Oh I'm a tropical expert too lmao...
BananaLee
11-27-2009, 09:26 PM
Anyone can do anything where-ever they live if they invest enough time or $$ to a project.. Oh I'm a tropical expert too lmao... Very true! Glad your a tropical expert too! I am too! (but most likely not as much as most of you guys!) :)
jwmahloch
11-27-2009, 10:33 PM
I had sucess overwintering 2 windmill palms (T Fortunei) on the east side of my house in St Louis MO last winter using leaf cages. I did have to cut back all the leaves in the spring. By the end of the summer each palm grew 6 new leaves. I planted a CA Fan palm on the south side of my house this spring and I have the truck wraped with pipe heating cables and wraped with burlap. I plan on cutting back the leaves when they get cold damage and then enclosing it in a leaf cage and covering with plastic to keep it dry. - Jeremy
RobG7aChattTN
11-27-2009, 10:47 PM
First, I never said unprotected, in zone 6/7 you always need protection :). But first of all, we had a record cold winter of -20F and his trachys survived, only one of his palms died. He a professional tropical expert so I think he knows what he's doing, his luck held tight! Oh and on the other thing about the washingtonia surviving and the site said -11F (-11C) well, I read a book and they had the exact same thing saying that washingtonias survived -11F but in brackets it said (-24C) so it did survive -11F. And I WILL takes pics in the winter and we will see how my palms will do!! I'm Done!!!!
I've read a lot of bad information in both books and on the internet. Many of the books were well written and had good endorsements and still had incorrect information. Unprotected I don't believe any full size filifera could survive -11*F (unless you stuck one in a deep freeze for a few minutes). If your friend had Trachies survive -20*F with only mulch then he's got the most cold hardy Trachies on the planet. Even the Bulgarian Trachies that allegedly survived -26*F were in an extremely sheltered place that certainly didn't actually get that cold. If your friend ever gets seed on those palms he can get top dollar for them. The parents of the 'Taylor Form' Trachies survived when Raleigh got down to -16*F (and it is speculated that the actual palms never saw that) and the F2 plants still get top dollar today. I sure can't wait for early summer to see how your palms have fared...as well as those of your friend. I really hope you can get winter photos as well so we can see the palms out in the elements. With faith like that I'm surprised you haven't tried to overwinter a 'Siam Ruby' outside with a little mulch. I guess what I should say is that anyone can easily overwinter 'Siam Ruby' outside in zone 5 with a little mulch. Now it has been said on the internet and must be true!
RobG7aChattTN
11-27-2009, 11:17 PM
Please go to //members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/ (put http: in front...it won't post when I do it here) to read lots of stuff about palms. To join email hardypalmadmins@gmail.com so you can join the discussions. This is a site that mostly involves cold hardy palms, but also bananas, citrus, bamboo, eucalyptus and just about any other cold hardy tropicals. Please, don't just take my advice but join a community specifically related to growing cold hardy palms.
damaclese
11-28-2009, 11:39 AM
I've read a lot of bad information in both books and on the internet. Many of the books were well written and had good endorsements and still had incorrect information. Unprotected I don't believe any full size filifera could survive -11*F (unless you stuck one in a deep freeze for a few minutes). If your friend had Trachies survive -20*F with only mulch then he's got the most cold hardy Trachies on the planet. Even the Bulgarian Trachies that allegedly survived -26*F were in an extremely sheltered place that certainly didn't actually get that cold. If your friend ever gets seed on those palms he can get top dollar for them. The parents of the 'Taylor Form' Trachies survived when Raleigh got down to -16*F (and it is speculated that the actual palms never saw that) and the F2 plants still get top dollar today. I sure can't wait for early summer to see how your palms have fared...as well as those of your friend. I really hope you can get winter photos as well so we can see the palms out in the elements. With faith like that I'm surprised you haven't tried to overwinter a 'Siam Ruby' outside with a little mulch. I guess what I should say is that anyone can easily overwinter 'Siam Ruby' outside in zone 5 with a little mulch. Now it has been said on the internet and must be true!
i live in zone 9 and i don't leave my Siam Ruby out side i spouse i could but it doesn't look like a good idea to me thees plants have demonstrated to me that they prefer a vary high temp even for a banana not really growing well until 90f so I'm thinking that yes they may survive but I'm sure they would go in to shock and take many months to recover in the spring
BananaLee
11-28-2009, 12:12 PM
I've read a lot of bad information in both books and on the internet. Many of the books were well written and had good endorsements and still had incorrect information. Unprotected I don't believe any full size filifera could survive -11*F (unless you stuck one in a deep freeze for a few minutes). If your friend had Trachies survive -20*F with only mulch then he's got the most cold hardy Trachies on the planet. Even the Bulgarian Trachies that allegedly survived -26*F were in an extremely sheltered place that certainly didn't actually get that cold. If your friend ever gets seed on those palms he can get top dollar for them. The parents of the 'Taylor Form' Trachies survived when Raleigh got down to -16*F (and it is speculated that the actual palms never saw that) and the F2 plants still get top dollar today. I sure can't wait for early summer to see how your palms have fared...as well as those of your friend. I really hope you can get winter photos as well so we can see the palms out in the elements. With faith like that I'm surprised you haven't tried to overwinter a 'Siam Ruby' outside with a little mulch. I guess what I should say is that anyone can easily overwinter 'Siam Ruby' outside in zone 5 with a little mulch. Now it has been said on the internet and must be true!
Here's what I'm going to say about this, my friends palms are usually just mulched but for the record cold winter, he might have wrapped his, I'll go ask him, and I WILL take pics in the winter and we will see how it goes! OK!? And with your Siam Ruby crap, are you trying to get me angry or something!? I don't believe everything one the internet!!! Internet shows a lot of freikn' crap! I know that!!! The book with the washingtonia is recommended and it's based of of someones experience! Read it yourself and find out!!! My work and my friends work is all experience!!!!! I WILL SHOW PICS IN THE WINTER WHEN I GET THE CHANCE, ALRIGHT!!!!!! If you don't believe me, fine! You can keep on arguing with your smart remarks but it's not gonna stop me from doing what I do best!! And no smart guy is gonna get in my way! I don't wanna argue anymore, you don't have to take my advise! Have you had experience in cold weather places?! It sounds like you haven't!!! If you had, good for you! I don't wanna get worked up on such a stupid little thing!! It seems to me that you want proof. You want proof I'll give you proof!!! Just be patient, winter hasn't come yet, don't worry, you'll get real proof! I'm done!
RobG7aChattTN
11-28-2009, 01:17 PM
i live in zone 9 and i don't leave my Siam Ruby out side i spouse i could but it doesn't look like a good idea to me thees plants have demonstrated to me that they prefer a vary high temp even for a banana not really growing well until 90f so I'm thinking that yes they may survive but I'm sure they would go in to shock and take many months to recover in the spring
That's exactly my point.
RobG7aChattTN
11-28-2009, 01:25 PM
... it's not gonna stop me from doing what I do best!! And no smart guy is gonna get in my way!
It does seem that what you do best is not listen to smart people. Also worth mentioning is that all arguments sound better when the spelling and grammar is correct.
RobG7aChattTN
11-28-2009, 09:14 PM
I really don't know much about bamboo...I just like it a lot. I've got both the regular P. negra and the 'Daikokuchiku' (guessing at the spelling). There are a few others, but basically if it gets over 2" in diameter it is 'Daikokuchiku' and although it is supposed to turn black faster than the regular...not by much and I think there are some varieties that turn black faster but stay the smaller size. I also have 'Robert Young' and although it has grown very few shoots, for a small clump the culms are really very large. I have P. vivax 'auriocallus' and it is very similar but eventually should get much bigger. So far it is smaller, but sends up a lot more culms. I've had trouble with my moso...it always loses the first round of culms to late freezes and sends up a smaller second round. I've heard that it outgrows this trait and the guy that I bought mine from lives not too far away and his does wonderfully (but also lives at slight elevation while I live in a slight bowl that collects cold air). Anyhow, as far as the above stuff I do need to drop it. I'll be interested to see any follow up in spring but I really should have done what Randy4UT and BigDog did which is just leave it alone. Some folks prefer to learn the hard way and that is just a sad fact. I should have referred him to John in Colorado who grows Trachies in zone 5...with protection but much less than I'd expect. He has the advantage of dry cold, but does not have the advantage of hot wet summers. He has a lot of info that could probably be found with a google search. His place is called 2Lazy2P Ranch...there can't be too many hits with that in the search engine.
Jack Daw
11-29-2009, 03:48 AM
Well, I would only like to correct one information: Washingtonia filifera dies very quickly at -11 to -12°C (12-10°F). And this is pretty much what I can prove. Just last year about 100 of my seedlings died to fros and cold, temp was -9°C (the lowest temperature of that winter, just for a few hours one night).
Older specimens are little bit tougher. I think that Washingtonia is not even a zone 7 palm, let alone zone 6. I would rather turn to slowlier growing Trachycarpuses or Sabals, they are hardier and not so fragile in wet cold climates.
But Washingtonia grows pretty fast so there's lots of space for experiments.
RobG7aChattTN
11-29-2009, 08:15 AM
As far as Washingtonias are concerned, I've actually had difficulty getting them to survive the winter in my unheated greenhouse...which easily overwinters some of the hardier citrus hybrids. Now, this is with one gallon or smaller palms and tons of seedlings so a larger palm would probably do much better. They tend to defoliate by late winter and rarely recover in the spring. As far as seedlings are concerned robusta die the fastest. Last winter I had some filifera and some xfilibusta seedlings which outlasted the one gallon robustas. The xfilibusta did much better than the pure filifera...but still all died by spring. This year I have some filifera from the Truth or Consequences palm (which may be xfilibusta) and I'll give them a try in my new greenhouse which should be a bit warmer due to new, more clear plastic.
RobG7aChattTN
12-07-2009, 02:52 PM
Here's a video that John in z5b Colorado did on Trachies.
YouTube - Trachycarpus Snow Palms.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhYQYGfAyqM)
Some good info and helps to visualize the protection methods.
saltydad
12-07-2009, 06:32 PM
Thanks for posting the video...fascinating. I lost one windmill last winter. It had a 'straight' trunk. The other windmill, bought from the same place and planted 15 feet away and with the same mulch, straw and plastic protection, survived...it had what the video calls a 'sideways' trunk. Never would have thought of that.
RobG7aChattTN
12-07-2009, 07:06 PM
He is the first one I've ever seen to describe it and test the cold hardiness of the "Frost Shift Heave" or "FSH" trait (or was it FHS?) Anyway, it does seem to have a correlation. He's also done testing that involves measuring the carbohydrate to water ratio of palms. There apparently is also a correlation there as well. The argument being that the higher the concentration of sugar the less likely the plant's tissues are to get freeze damage. When the liquid in plant tissues freezes, the expansion causes the cell walls to break. When the plant warms, the liquid melts out of these cracks and makes the damage evident. That is part of why palms do better in the winter on the dry side (more sugar, less water). Also with Musa that is why they seem to "melt" after cold damage.
Randy4ut
12-07-2009, 07:16 PM
Thanks for the information, Rob. I still do have my doubts about the FSH/FHS. As you know I have several Trachys around the yard at different stages of growth. I have one with a very pronounced FSH that has been planted in the ground for 3 years now from a 5 gallon container. It is the first Trachy in my yard that shows damage and has had spear pull every winter so far. It does regrow almost all of its fronds, but still shows damage before any of my others. Is interesting info nonetheless!!!
RobG7aChattTN
12-07-2009, 09:42 PM
My 'Taylor form' has the greatest SFH trait and had MASSIVE spear pull last spring (spear and 5 fronds)! Still, it has re-grown and looks awesome right now. I've heard that they get spear pull easy but grow it out fast. Meanwhile, my 'Bulgaria' rarely get spear pull, but grow so slow that they have difficulty recovering if they do get spear pull. I've lost a few of those. I haven't noticed the SFH trait on any of them.
turtile
12-08-2009, 12:25 PM
\I should have referred him to John in Colorado who grows Trachies in zone 5...with protection but much less than I'd expect. He has the advantage of dry cold, but does not have the advantage of hot wet summers. He has a lot of info that could probably be found with a google search. His place is called 2Lazy2P Ranch...there can't be too many hits with that in the search engine.'
His website is no longer online but you can find it in the web archives here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041210092102/hometown.aol.com/fitzroya/VascularFluidData.html
He is the first one I've ever seen to describe it and test the cold hardiness of the "Frost Shift Heave" or "FSH" trait (or was it FHS?) Anyway, it does seem to have a correlation. He's also done testing that involves measuring the carbohydrate to water ratio of palms. There apparently is also a correlation there as well. The argument being that the higher the concentration of sugar the less likely the plant's tissues are to get freeze damage. When the liquid in plant tissues freezes, the expansion causes the cell walls to break. When the plant warms, the liquid melts out of these cracks and makes the damage evident. That is part of why palms do better in the winter on the dry side (more sugar, less water). Also with Musa that is why they seem to "melt" after cold damage.
It's SFH (Slope Frost Heave):
SFH Factor in Trachycarpus pictures from flowers photos on webshots (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/562263965zSvGXm)
When you add carbohydrates to water, it lowers the freezing point of the water. The higher the concentration, the lower the freezing point becomes. There are also many other advantages to having a higher amount of carbohydrates since they serve as a reserve of energy for the palm during stressful conditions.
Thanks for the information, Rob. I still do have my doubts about the FSH/FHS. As you know I have several Trachys around the yard at different stages of growth. I have one with a very pronounced FSH that has been planted in the ground for 3 years now from a 5 gallon container. It is the first Trachy in my yard that shows damage and has had spear pull every winter so far. It does regrow almost all of its fronds, but still shows damage before any of my others. Is interesting info nonetheless!!!
The SFH trait does not make the actual plant tissue more resistant to cold. The trait protects the growing point since it is against the ground and well insulated. If you look at Rhapidophyllum hystrix, you'll notice that the pups are less likely to die from cold than the main growing point. This is due to the fact that they grow sideways. (also the same with Chamaerops humilis)
D_&_T
12-08-2009, 09:56 PM
Well I'm going to test hardiness of Sabal Minor 'Cape Hatteras' thanks to Randy in passing some seeds out to friends here on the org! Hopefully get several to sprout, will grow them in pots to get some size before planting in the ground.
Thanks Randy
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