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View Full Version : The best thing you can do for your garden!


Bob
08-22-2009, 04:01 PM
What if I told you I had a product that would fertilize your plants, improve the structure of your soil, add greatly to the amount of earth worms which in turn would gradually "till" the garden for you and benefit the roots of your plants due to the added microbial activity in the soil. How about if I added that it was completely environmentally sound and would decrease the amount of space used in landfills. How much would you pay? How about if it were absolutely free!!!!
I'm speaking of compost of course and you should be making it if you're not already. Compost piles are simple to create and can be adjusted to any rural suburban or even an urban setting.
Simply put compost is the result of decayed organic matter that turns in to a crumbly mix saavy gardeners view as "Black Gold". At home I make an open pile starting in the fall with leaves gathered from the lawn that would normally be carted off to the recycling center. I pile them up and have found that making a few passes over the pile with a lawnmower shreds them up better than a chipper. Rake up in to a small mound and start adding kitchen scraps, refuse from the vegetable garden( not if it has any signs of disease), grass clippings if you bag them. Any of your neighbors bagging their leaves or grass clippings? All those banana peels, onion ends, celery bottoms, spoiled fruit.....you get the idea, contain valuable nutrients as well as plenty of bulk organic matter that is beneficial to your plants. The trick is to add any dried brown material such as the leaves (straw or hay is great as well) with wet green materials(the kitchen scraps and grass clippings).If I have any left over commercial organic fertilizers these are added as well. Since I live near the ocean and fish during the fall I always gather trash bags full of seaweed washed up on the shores during storms. Seaweed is known to contain virtually all the trace elements known to man and adds bulk to the pile. If you don't have access to this bagged greensand , a mined mineral product that originated in ancient sea beds will do the same and since its not water soluble will benefit from the microbial activity in the pile. If you have access to horse stable sweepings or other manures these can be added as well. Many farmers (horse stables are a great source here) are more than happy to get rid of this "waste".There wont be much activity during the cold months but it will quickly resume with warmer spring weather. Not much work to do after this but if you're a bit ambitious turning the pile over with a pitchfork will increase the rate of decomposition. Sometime during late fall mornings the pile will actually be steaming from the internal heat generated from all the unseen "action" If you add enough kitchen scraps you'll probably discover the pile is filled with earthworms adding their own beneficial castings to the mix. Think of it as a "lasagne" the more different ingredients the better. Everyone has their own "recipe". If you're in an urban or other setting wher an open pile isn't appropriate a trash can with a few holes for aeration would work and there's always commercial compost bins that would serve well also. While compost is generally not viewed as a complete fertilizer ,experience has proved to me that its got to be pretty darn close if you're conscientious about adding various components.
When the compost is done you wont be able to recognize most of the ingredients. Simply apply as a top dressing or till shallowly in to the top layer of garden soil where the worms will till it in for you.
Get started now , you'll be glad you did.

Richard
08-22-2009, 04:12 PM
If you don't want to use chemical salts in your garden, then for heaven's sake don't use mulch, compost, or manure. There's 2% or more in every shovelful of the stuff !!

Bob
08-22-2009, 04:15 PM
Look at the picture of my plants. Even with the seaweed added the salts leach out. I've never had any trouble. My cooperative extension agent has been impressed by the results of my soil tests as well.

Richard
08-22-2009, 04:21 PM
Look at the picture of my plants. Even with the seaweed added the salts leach out. I've never had any trouble. My cooperative extension agent has been impressed by the results of my soil tests as well.

Bob, you are completely misunderstanding the word "salts". The nutrition in your compost, mulch, and seaweed is composed of salts!

Bob
08-22-2009, 04:31 PM
Fair enough, I don't have the credentials or full understanding but don't see how they are hurting my garden. I've been doing it this way for 20 years and gardening for 40. My successes over that span speak for themselves.

sbl
08-22-2009, 04:51 PM
I couldn't agree more Bob. I have been doing it for years and the combination of improved soil condition along with the commercial fertilizer has allowed me to grow plenty of veggies in a very small space here in the city.

As for the salt(s), it is like I said in another post--it is not the presence of salt(s) but the concentration (or everything here would be dead for miles inland due to salt spray when we have hurricanes).

BTW --just to make it clear, pretty much everything that plants take up are salts or ions--whether it is an ammonium ion, a nitrate ion, a potassium ion--it is part of a salt--they do not take up much in the way of non-ionic macro molecules although they do take up some.

Jack Daw
08-22-2009, 05:17 PM
Haha, Bob, I've gone vermicomposting quite a short while ago. And vermicomposting I am. Almost anything that can be vermicomposted. :woohoonaner:
The greatest advantage is the time I gain (the pile you would compost 2 years is finished within weeks here) and also the outcome is very similar, if not directly in favor of vermicompost.
Also one big advantage: Virtually little or no smell, cascading is more than useful (not too much space) and also the lovely feling, that there's an army of 500 mouths (so far) waiting for you to feed them! Buhahaahaa

Dalmatiansoap
08-22-2009, 05:44 PM
Great thread Bob!
Way to go!
Hmm, I still have a lot to learn:ha::ha::ha:
:woohoonaner:

Richard
08-22-2009, 06:00 PM
Bob,
I did not mean to imply that you are hurting your plants or doing anything wrong. I was "trolling" for misunderstanding of "chemical salts" and found it.

I applaud what you are doing with your garden (for free!) and think more people should do it with their ornamental plants. The materials you are using initially supply about 400ppm (parts per million) of major nutrients to the plants at the first watering, then decreasing geometrically to near zero in 1 to 3 months. The nutrients contained in your materials are in the form of chemical salts. The remaining mass is about 95% fiber plus compounds ignored by plants.

Your materials are insufficient for my fruiting plants. I supply my subtropicals with about 100ppm of Nitrogen and 66ppm of Potash in the water supply, along with the other minor- and micro-nutrients found in your materials. These all come from naturally occuring compounds that have been concentrated into water-soluble salts. I use them because (1) the proportion of nutrients is known (2) they are not harmful to me or the environment as a whole when used responsibly (3) I don't have to deal with a cubic yard of fiber per plant -- which I would using your materials to obtain the desired dosage.

Jack Daw
08-22-2009, 06:02 PM
Great thread Bob!
Way to go!
Hmm, I still have a lot to learn:ha::ha::ha:
:woohoonaner:
Large pile of compost in hot and dry Croatia = smell in half the Europe. :ha:

Dalmatiansoap
08-22-2009, 06:03 PM
large pile of compost in hot and dry Croatia = smell in half the Europe. :ha:

haha, dont talk about dry days. Still nothing :(.
:woohoonaner:

Bob
08-22-2009, 06:04 PM
Thanks Richard and all. I enjoy hearing all the points of view and coming to some reasonable conclusion.,,,,,,,,,,and learned something along the way, thats what its all about.

Jack Daw
08-22-2009, 06:26 PM
Richard, how do you calculate that ppm factor for the fertilizers and composts? Do you think it is wiser to make various solutions (rich mineral water, like we have here everywhere, mixed with compost/vermicompost/fertilizer) and used for irrigation instead of plain water? What is the best way of continuous mineral and nutrient delivery to the plants without cascading decrease of nutrient values?

Richard
08-22-2009, 06:49 PM
Richard, how do you calculate that ppm factor for the fertilizers and composts?

For the fertilizers, I know what rate I want (100ppm N in most cases). I use a published chart that gives how much weight of the fertilizer to use per gallon of water to achieve various delivered concentrations.

For the composts, I am relying on university publications.

Do you think it is wiser to make various solutions (rich mineral water, like we have here everywhere, mixed with compost/vermicompost/fertilizer) and used for irrigation instead of plain water?

1st decide what your nutrition needs are, then determine the most environmentally responsible and economically prudent method.

What is the best way of continuous mineral and nutrient delivery to the plants without cascading decrease of nutrient values?

Buffered water soluble fertilizers containing micronutients and other biotics.

Patty in Wisc
08-25-2009, 06:46 PM
I do the exact same thing here & my garden is about the best around here. I keep a bucket in the kitchen for coffe grounds, potato peelings etc & dump it in a garbage cart with holes drilled in it. I bungee the lid down & roll it around to mix. When I dump it in garden I see it steaming in fall.
Well written Bob, but then to be followed with THIS! Hope no one is discouraged from using compost or manure. It IS black gold.

If you don't want to use chemical salts in your garden, then for heaven's sake don't use mulch, compost, or manure. There's 2% or more in every shovelful of the stuff !!

damaclese
08-25-2009, 07:37 PM
i dig a hole and place the scraps in that so i don't have a big pile of stuff in my already over crowded garden i have found it holds the water in better i have problims with dehydration of my compost so it taks longer to brake down

Bob
08-25-2009, 07:47 PM
i dig a hole and place the scraps in that so i don't have a big pile of stuff in my already over crowded garden i have found it holds the water in better i have problims with dehydration of my compost so it taks longer to brake down

That sums up the point better than I could Pauly, every thing you do to make your garden even 1% better has to add up. If you were only going to throw it out , why not let it benefit the garden? Your adapting it to your own situation is how it should be done for everyone since all of our living situations and conditions are not the same.

hammer
08-25-2009, 07:48 PM
Im with you Bob on the compost its the best and all of the crap i can get i dont know anything about seaweed.

Bob
08-25-2009, 07:52 PM
Shannon, that's just me using what I have available, you probably have different things that are good that I wouldn't find here..just the nature of it .

Simply Bananas
08-25-2009, 08:16 PM
Twice a year(spring and fall) I gather grass clippings and feed them to the banana plants. I use big free bags from around the neighborhood. The banana roots actually grow up through the old grass sometimes. I also add kitchen vegetable/coffee/eggshell/shrimp peel/ fish head surplus to the bananas directly. No complaints.

I learned this early on(20 years before I grew bananas) when my anthropoply professor told me in that his Caribean country, household bananas plants were ' garbage disposals' for kitchen kitchen scraps.

sbl
08-25-2009, 08:26 PM
I do the exact same thing here & my garden is about the best around here. I keep a bucket in the kitchen for coffe grounds, potato peelings etc & dump it in a garbage cart with holes drilled in it. I bungee the lid down & roll it around to mix. When I dump it in garden I see it steaming in fall.
Well written Bob, but then to be followed with THIS! Hope no one is discouraged from using compost or manure. It IS black gold.

I don't think anyone has said that compost and manure is bad--and not to put words in Richard's mouth, but what I think he was trying to do is point out the falacy of those that believe that chemical salts are "evil". The same chemical salts that are found in fertilizer are in or are created as compost or manure breaks down. There can be harmful chemical in manures--depending on where and when you get it, but I would just advise to be aware and be careful of your source (if you are trying to totally avoid harmful chemicals).

Me--I would take any manure if it were available free and convenient--most of the chemicals that might be there would breakdown in the process of composting.

Patty in Wisc
08-25-2009, 08:38 PM
Oh yeah, crushed egg shells, fish guts & heads, shrimp peels.

Bob
08-25-2009, 08:45 PM
Oh yeah, crushed egg shells, fish guts & heads, shrimp peels.

I thought you were from Wisconsin?..... you don't use the crushed egg shells for ice fishing attractant chum? Perch find them kind of fascinating:ha:

sbl
08-25-2009, 08:56 PM
Oh yeah, crushed egg shells, fish guts & heads, shrimp peels.

I bury that stuff next to the fruit trees--egg shells do go to the compost pile.

Patty in Wisc
08-25-2009, 09:05 PM
SBL, I didn't hear anyone say they didn't want chemical salts in the garden.

"If you don't want to use chemical salts in your garden, then for heaven's sake don't use mulch, compost, or manure. There's 2% or more in every shovelful of the stuff !!"
That sounds to me like Richard is saying chemical salts are a bad thing.

I thought you were from Wisconsin?..... you don't use the crushed egg shells for ice fishing attractant chum? Perch find them kind of fascinating:ha:

Ice fishing??? No way, unless I'm in 75 degree temps. But then the ice would break & I'd drown.

Richard
08-25-2009, 11:31 PM
"If you don't want to use chemical salts in your garden, then for heaven's sake don't use mulch, compost, or manure. There's 2% or more in every shovelful of the stuff !!"
That sounds to me like Richard is saying chemical salts are a bad thing.

Nope, you probably missed this earlier post: post92354 (http://www.bananas.org/f312/best-thing-you-can-do-your-9244.html#post92354)

Kim
08-26-2009, 07:23 PM
Great thread here. If anyone is still in question, do your own research because it will always come down to personal preference.

sbl
08-26-2009, 08:14 PM
SBL, I didn't hear anyone say they didn't want chemical salts in the garden.

"If you don't want to use chemical salts in your garden, then for heaven's sake don't use mulch, compost, or manure. There's 2% or more in every shovelful of the stuff !!"
That sounds to me like Richard is saying chemical salts are a bad thing.



Ice fishing??? No way, unless I'm in 75 degree temps. But then the ice would break & I'd drown.

I really should let Richard speak for himself.

For me I don't want chemicals salts that are harmful in my garden --things like lead, arsenic and mercury salts and are often found in municipal sewage. But let's be clear, the chemical salts that are in commercial fertilizers --even man made nitrogen salts-- are the same chemical salts you get from organic materials as they breakdown--primarialy ammonium and nitrate salts. Phosphate and potassium cannot be man made (except in a nuclear reactor), they can only be mined, refined, or recycled.

sbl
08-27-2009, 03:14 PM
Twice a year(spring and fall) I gather grass clippings and feed them to the banana plants. I use big free bags from around the neighborhood. The banana roots actually grow up through the old grass sometimes. I also add kitchen vegetable/coffee/eggshell/shrimp peel/ fish head surplus to the bananas directly. No complaints.

I learned this early on(20 years before I grew bananas) when my anthropoply professor told me in that his Caribean country, household bananas plants were ' garbage disposals' for kitchen kitchen scraps.

Grass clippings are better than manure--they are manure without all the good stuff taken out and none of the bad stuff added. I can't believe more people do not use them on their plants.

Bob
08-27-2009, 03:18 PM
I used to use them all the time in the garden and they were great as a weed block and an extra nutrient source. Now a days I use a mulching mower and leave them on the lawn. I was told this was better for the lawn. I haven't noticed any difference really though. Any opinions?

sbl
08-27-2009, 03:23 PM
I prefer using them on my other plants. I still occasionally dump a bag on some of the shrubs, but most go through my compost pile. It may be good for the grass, but I can see it causing problems with bugs and fungus as well down here.

momoese
08-27-2009, 03:24 PM
Grass clippings are better than manure--they are manure without all the good stuff taken out and none of the bad stuff added. I can't believe more people do not use them on their plants.

I use them as compost and at times for light top mulch when I have nothing else to use, like right now. Nice thing is that I know they are organically grown because I grew them! I'm curious as to your method of composting them. Are you doing this solo with just grass clippings or combined with some brown stuff. Are you using any starters? Also what are you using to compost, a pile or composter?

sbl
08-27-2009, 03:31 PM
My compost pile is just a large pile of stuff--leaves, pine straw, grass, kitchen scraps. It is about 4ftx8ft.

rscotth
09-05-2009, 07:18 AM
Great post Bob, as you know I have been recently inspired to start composting.
Much like yourself I am also an avid fisherman and we are getting to the time of year that all "your" bluefish finally start arriving in our area. Along with the "runs" of various game fish the Sargasso Sea Weed hits the shore in good volume. Not sure if it the same "weed" you guys have up there.

Nature Report by Colley's Fins to Feathers - Sargasso Seaweed (http://www.spadre.com/naturereportseaweed.htm)

My question is what do you do to prep it for your compost pile?

There is another thread.
http://www.bananas.org/f312/compost-materials-9336.html

"supermario" posted a huge list with NPK values and it listed dried seaweed.
"Seaweed (dried): 1.1-1.5/0.75/4.9 (Seaweed is loaded with micronutrients including: Boron, Iodine, Magnesium and so on.)"

Do you rinse it with fresh water then dry it before it goes in the pile?

supermario
09-05-2009, 08:20 AM
My question is what do you do to prep it for your compost pile?

There is another thread.
http://www.bananas.org/f312/compost-materials-9336.html

"supermario" posted a huge list with NPK values and it listed dried seaweed.
"Seaweed (dried): 1.1-1.5/0.75/4.9 (Seaweed is loaded with micronutrients including: Boron, Iodine, Magnesium and so on.)"

Do you rinse it with fresh water then dry it before it goes in the pile?

I believe the information I posted had the seaweed listed as dried because that's how it is sold in stores. If you have access to fresh seaweed, I don't see why you can't just rinse it(to get salt and tiny critters out) and then toss it in the compost pile like you would kitchen scraps. Someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...especially since I'm thinking of heading to South Miami beach with a garbage bag! :)

Richard
09-05-2009, 09:06 AM
For fresh seaweed:
Soak several hours, rinse, repeat.

Bob
09-05-2009, 09:13 AM
Bob and Mario, basically when I go down to surf fish in the fall I load up mostly on eel grass and what we call "Cabbage". I have a secret spot on Barnegat bay where the prevailing winds blow it up in huge clumps (along with all sorts of debris mixed in, I even found a giant sponge the size of my head once. I usually can fill five or six large trash bags . When I get home I pull it out and remove all the trash........yup welcome to New Jersey! Then I rinse the remaining pile with fresh water from the hose. I used to add it to the compost pile but now just throw it on top of the garden bed and let it sit over winter. In spring I just till in shallowly. Adding to the compost works just as well but since I get it in the fall it wouldn't decompose much anyway. In a warmer area it would break down quickly and might be a better option. Four or five trips doing this and you can add a whole load of free organic matter to the garden with no effort. In the main bed I can stick my whole forearm in what was pure clay when I got here ten years ago.

Patty in Wisc
09-05-2009, 09:33 AM
It takes years to get good soil when it starts out being junk. Mikes garden soil is clay so this was first year. I threw in what was available. Bags of peat, pine needles, some leaves, horse poop, & soon to get (finally) bags of grass clippings from his neighbors. Next year will be better.
You have a good head start on me Bob. I s'pose I could go to my lakefront & bag up some mossy seaweed if it's still there. Wonder what the diff would be other than no salt(?)
Forgot to say that my garden is so much better than Mike's. I have been composting for years...lots of grass clippings, composted manure, & stuff from my compost.

Bob
09-05-2009, 10:02 AM
Hey Patty you have a lot of lakes in your part of the country right? I would find an area where they have a weed problem and are using harvesters to remove the weed, usually near boating or swimming tourist type areas. Let them do the work for you and just bag whatever you can. They have to be full of nutrients and provide some bulk.

Richard
09-05-2009, 10:28 AM
Hey Patty you have a lot of lakes in your part of the country right? I would find an area where they have a weed problem and are using harvesters to remove the weed, usually near boating or swimming tourist type areas. Let them do the work for you and just bag whatever you can. They have to be full of nutrients and provide some bulk.

And just for your own health, check with the city/county about metal content in the lake. Some lakes are great, others have runoff from long abandoned mines.

Nicolas Naranja
09-05-2009, 03:47 PM
If you have a heavy clay soil the best thing you can do is put lots of gypsum and lots of organic matter in it. This will change the structure of the soil and will improve drainage and workability.

rscotth
09-06-2009, 04:20 PM
So we made a day of the beach and I gathered some seaweed. This sargasso weed has little berries all over it so being paranoid about the salt content and taking "Richards" advise I sprayed it off real good then let it soak in a bucket for an hour then rinsed again and now letting it soak overnight then to the ole composter it goes.
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z242/slowdriftn/IMG_0172.jpg
It was real fun taking the little one to the beach since it turned into a mini marine biology lesson for him with the little crabs and fishing to boot. I try to expose them to all aspects of the outdoors and instill good ethical habits as stewards of the outdoors. Andrew (4yo) is a Florida lifetime "sportsmans gold" license holder. So when we found a crab that stowed away he insisted we take him back to the beach. So off to the beach we went and found some more seaweed and let the little guy go. Was that pointless......maybe but atleast he cares about his impact and I couldn't be happier.
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z242/slowdriftn/IMG_0175.jpg

Bob
09-06-2009, 05:20 PM
Very cool Dad. Sportsmen are dwindling in numbers so every one we add counts and that's the age you learn to enjoy all things outdoors.................of course a crab that size is bait but, time to learn that one later! Well done.

jimhardy
09-25-2009, 10:14 AM
Great thread Bob,
I remember when me and a friend of mine planted our Sequoia trees,she added some compost into the hole.I planted mine and watered it and fertilized over the summer.Of the 15 or so(total)Sequoias planted in all,hers grew the fastest,almost twice as big as the others.Compost really gets it done!

Richard
09-25-2009, 10:23 AM
My neighbor is famous for growing cauliflower heads 24" to 30" across (snow white variety). In addition to regular feeding, he tills mushroom compost into the soil 18" deep every 5 to 7 years.

cat9ramos
09-25-2009, 02:54 PM
Twice a year(spring and fall) I gather grass clippings and feed them to the banana plants. I use big free bags from around the neighborhood. The banana roots actually grow up through the old grass sometimes. I also add kitchen vegetable/coffee/eggshell/shrimp peel/ fish head surplus to the bananas directly. No complaints.

I learned this early on(20 years before I grew bananas) when my anthropoply professor told me in that his Caribean country, household bananas plants were ' garbage disposals' for kitchen kitchen scraps.
I would LOVE to compost EXCEPT it takes an ENORMOUS amount of effort, a "herd" of cats, several dogs, and insect baits just to keep insects and rodents out of a hygienic house in which ALL food and garbage is stored in air-tight containers. I shudder to think what a compost heap in the outdoors would attract. But for 3 separate "herds" of cats in the same neighbourhood, we only just got rid of most of the field rats and mice!

sbl
09-26-2009, 12:41 PM
If you have an active compost pile that is working as it should, you will not have any animals in it as the temperatures will be well over 100. There are a few bugs that inhabit the outer layers like sow bugs, but until it is ready to be used, even earthworms stay out. I do keep a small pile of compost that is ready to be used and the worms do like that pile.

Richard
09-26-2009, 01:20 PM
When I pick up humic compost from the greenery facility in Oceanside CA, my temperature probe reads 150 F to 170 F. You will see smoke if you expose the inner core to air!

cat9ramos
09-26-2009, 02:37 PM
Bob,

Thank you for your response. Haven't decided yet, but at least now I'll consider it.