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View Full Version : When protecting musa-stems for winter....


mrbungalow
08-31-2006, 03:24 AM
.....will filling the cage with pine-bark instead of straw be ok? This is the only material I have direct access to now, as the nearest farm is miles away from Bergen. Any other materials that someone would rate as exceptionally good for wrapping banana stems?

Erlend

mikevan
08-31-2006, 08:13 AM
I would think it'd be better than nothing. Is it finely shreaded or in chips?

Anyone want to comment on burlap and bubble-wrap? I'm thinking of using that here in Zone 8... I figure layering that once or twice would create a decent "jacket" for the stems - burlap on the layer closest to the stem to help prevent moisture buildup on the stem, I hope. It could also be used in addition to the cage of hay (or pine straw or shreaded pine-bark?) too, methinks, in very cold places too.

Be well,
Mike

.....will filling the cage with pine-bark instead of straw be ok? This is the only material I have direct access to now, as the nearest farm is miles away from Bergen. Any other materials that someone would rate as exceptionally good for wrapping banana stems?

Erlend

bigdog
08-31-2006, 09:01 PM
Dried leaves work best for me. I've never tried pine bark though, Erlend. There's only one way to find out - do it, and let us know :banana_ba ! As long as it is dry, I wouldn't see why it wouldn't work great.

Never used burlap or bubble wrap either, Mike. Others swear by bubble wrap though, and many folks use the burlap also.

mikevan
08-31-2006, 09:46 PM
Oops - I read "Never use burlap..." rather than "Never used burlap..." Had me scared there for a moment thinking I'd have to rethink the entire wrapping scheme. :)

Be well,
Mike

Old Message -->
What problems do you forsee with bubble-wrap and burlap? What alternatives would there be other than building a really tall cage and stuffing it with straw?

Thanks,
Mike

Dried leaves work best for me. I've never tried pine bark though, Erlend. There's only one way to find out - do it, and let us know :banana_ba ! As long as it is dry, I wouldn't see why it wouldn't work great.

Never used burlap or bubble wrap either, Mike. Others swear by bubble wrap though, and many folks use the burlap also.

mrbungalow
09-01-2006, 12:20 AM
There are some great ideas here! What I am generally interested in is the insulation properties of pine-bark. I guess Bigdog is right, only one way to find out and try it!

In England, at Kew gardens they use chimney-brick elements (You know, the pourous ones cemented from volcanic rocks?) And stack them on top of the pseudostem. In the cavity they fill up with isulation material. Over the root system they place boards of styrofoam and cover with soil.

Erlend

sandy0225
09-18-2006, 10:40 AM
I wonder how the styrofoam packing peanuts would do for insulation. They are made out of styrofoam and would have air spaces in between. I've never tried it though.

jeffreyp
09-18-2006, 10:50 AM
i've thought that a pipe heating cable, preferably thermostatically controlled, would be nice along with a fiberglass insulation wrap.

http://www.accentshopping.com/product.asp?P_ID=149925&strReturnUrl=

http://www.hardwarestore.com/media/product/291542_front200.jpg

mikevan
09-18-2006, 11:28 AM
Keep in mind that you'll have to clean this up in the Spring, and on a windy day, a bunch of peanuts could be troublesome. Not to mention the proliferation of peanuts that melt in water - if condensation gets on them, you could end up with an unprotected tree in a puddle of goop.

Be well,
Mike

I wonder how the styrofoam packing peanuts would do for insulation. They are made out of styrofoam and would have air spaces in between. I've never tried it though.

D'Andra
10-23-2006, 02:49 AM
Hi Erlend.

I'm sure you've got everything wrapped up already but I think anything that is mostly carbon and won't absorb & hold moisture would work. MikeVan had a good Q with how finely shredded is it? I don't (of course) know anything about pine bark.

If you tried bubble wrap did you use clear or black? I've heard of using pine straw. We can get it @ nurserys here but I've never used it either.

Good luck & please keep me posted on how it goes.

mrbungalow
10-31-2006, 03:50 PM
Nothing is covered yet, as we have not had our first frost. Finally managed to get hold of hay, and I will go with this. The first frost is supposed to come on thursday, and I am going to cover tomorrow. As I said in a newer post, the stems will be cut to about 2 feet.

I am hoping the basjoos will grow better in the 2007 season. Only reached about maxiumum 5 feet this year from 30 cm potted specimens. The sikkimensis and helens grew huge. These will probably be more difficult to overwinter in this wet climate here.

Erlend

Mark Hall
10-31-2006, 04:58 PM
Erland here in the uk we also use large diameter drainage pipe over the top of the banana and then stuffed with straw or hay and if you can get it dry braken. Then a bin liner over the top to keep the rain out.


Mark

grammie
10-31-2006, 06:19 PM
something seems seriously wrong when Norway hasn't had frost yet, and I have in southern US. twice no less.

mrbungalow
11-01-2006, 01:17 AM
Grammie, it IS uncommon for frosts to come this late, but recognizing weather patterns here, I am expecting a very cold winter in Norway and a warm summer in 2007.

wim
11-02-2006, 05:54 PM
I've followed a thread on another forum about using bark chips to protect plants during winter. Here is how it's done:

Make a cage of fence wire around the pseudostem. Make it wide enough so there is air between the PS and the wire +- 20 cm. Cover the wire with "vliesdoek" (felt cloth ?) it protects the plant from wind and rain, and will keep the bark chips in). Make another cage around the first one, with the "felt cloth" on the inside, keep a distance of 20-30 cm from the first cage. Fill the space between the first and the second cage with bark chips. Cover the whole with two layers of bubble plastic.

The "felt cloth" will protect the bark from getting wet, prevents it from falling trough the holes in the fence wire and allows wind to move through, thereby preventing rot.

The advantage is that the bark chips can easily be spread along the plants in spring, whereas straw, and the leftovers, can be as mess, especially when it is windy. Straw will also rot when it is wet, and collapse. Even wet bark chips won't collapse and the air chamber between the bark and the PS will prevent the PS from rotting.

I guess you can use whatever you prefer to fill it up: dried leaves, straw, ...

mikevan
11-02-2006, 06:23 PM
that's a good plan. With the plastic covering it, I don't think there's a problem with the hay rotting - I use hay a lot here. Even if it rots some, it's just that much closer to becoming a very good mulch when you disassemble the setup - all of my nanners are mulched with hay already anyway. Leaves would be just as good, or both. Wood chips take longer to decompose so I avoid that in my mulch, personally.

Be well,
Mike

I've followed a thread on another forum about using bark chips to protect plants during winter. Here is how it's done:

Make a cage of fence wire around the pseudostem. Make it wide enough so there is air between the PS and the wire +- 20 cm. Cover the wire with "vliesdoek" (felt cloth ?) it protects the plant from wind and rain, and will keep the bark chips in). Make another cage around the first one, with the "felt cloth" on the inside, keep a distance of 20-30 cm from the first cage. Fill the space between the first and the second cage with bark chips. Cover the whole with two layers of bubble plastic.

The "felt cloth" will protect the bark from getting wet, prevents it from falling trough the holes in the fence wire and allows wind to move through, thereby preventing rot.

The advantage is that the bark chips can easily be spread along the plants in spring, whereas straw, and the leftovers, can be as mess, especially when it is windy. Straw will also rot when it is wet, and collapse. Even wet bark chips won't collapse and the air chamber between the bark and the PS will prevent the PS from rotting.

I guess you can use whatever you prefer to fill it up: dried leaves, straw, ...

wim
11-03-2006, 06:09 AM
The purpose of the bark chips on the ground is not to decompose, but to form a protective layer above the ground to prevent it from drying out and to prevent weeds from growing, thereby avoiding the need of frequent weeding (the main reason I use it). If you buy the more expensive kinds, it's also aesthetic.
On the negative side, during sumer, slugs and snails will make their home in it.

Bark will decomposes, though slower, so it does add a bit to the nutrient and humus level of the soil. If that's your main concern, hay is indeed definitely better.

With the plastic covering it, I don't think there's a problem with the hay rotting - I use hay a lot here. Even if it rots some, it's just that much closer to becoming a very good mulch when you disassemble the setup - all of my nanners are mulched with hay already anyway. Leaves would be just as good, or both. Wood chips take longer to decompose so I avoid that in my mulch, personally.

Gard
11-03-2006, 09:06 AM
Grammie, it IS uncommon for frosts to come this late, but recognizing weather patterns here, I am expecting a very cold winter in Norway and a warm summer in 2007.

Here we've had our first frost, temps down at 20°F, we've even had snow, not enough to cover anything, but it WAS snow. There are holes in the road with frozen water. :0493:

Gard

mikevan
11-03-2006, 09:10 AM
Semantical differences, methinks. My organic perspective has that mulch should both insulate the soil against the drying effect and feed the soil too - as the leaves and hay break down rapidly in a moist environment they form a humus layer that the nanners feed from. Critters have predators if predators are allowed and I've never personally had a problem. But for those that don't do organic, I can see where bark would be preferred.

Be well,
Mike

The purpose of the bark chips on the ground is not to decompose, but to form a protective layer above the ground to prevent it from drying out and to prevent weeds from growing, thereby avoiding the need of frequent weeding (the main reason I use it). If you buy the more expensive kinds, it's also aesthetic.
On the negative side, during sumer, slugs and snails will make their home in it.

Bark will decomposes, though slower, so it does add a bit to the nutrient and humus level of the soil. If that's your main concern, hay is indeed definitely better.

mrbungalow
11-03-2006, 11:57 AM
Well, the cages are up and filled with hay now. Maybe I'll try bark next year! That is if they survive! First frost didn't touch my one unprotected basjoo. Still green with minor foliar burn.

:07:

wim
11-03-2006, 05:10 PM
Mike,

I grow my vegetables organic. For them I use mowed grass, it keeps weeds away, protects the soil from the sun, the rain and it composes and gives nutrients to my plants.

Normally I don't have enough grass to cover everything. A few years ago I had to stop halfway when mulching my celery plants. A few days later it rained very heavy and the unprotected soil compacted, after that we had a warm sunny period. The unprotected soil dried out. When I checked, the mulched soil wasn't compacted nor dry and the plants grew considerably better.
It convinced me to continue with mulching.

Just be selective what vegetables to mulch, if you mulch chervil or parsley with grass, the grass clings to the leaves and at the end I ended up eating more grass then vegetable.

zinniasjm
11-30-2006, 10:59 PM
Keep us posted on how the hay does over the winter. I've been debating this for some time. Bark seems to hold air spaces throughout the winter which might have more insulation. I used to put bark over my agave outside and it did fine for two winters. Then I forgot to do it and it froze. I live in zone 5. I wanted something that wouldn't hold a lot of water. The large bark chips seemed to let a lot of water run off.

chong
12-01-2006, 12:35 AM
Keep us posted on how the hay does over the winter. I've been debating this for some time. Bark seems to hold air spaces throughout the winter which might have more insulation. I used to put bark over my agave outside and it did fine for two winters. Then I forgot to do it and it froze. I live in zone 5. I wanted something that wouldn't hold a lot of water. The large bark chips seemed to let a lot of water run off.

bark chips pack when they get wet, too. why not try styrofoam peanuts? they're great insulators. the ones used for filling packages. just don't use the tubular kind - they shrink when they get wet and get sticky. use the one that's kinda s-curvy shaped with peanut shell texture on them. mostly, they're white, but comes in green and pink, also. they don't have any weight to them so they won't crush your leaves, if you want to keep them. and they are re-useable.

wim
12-01-2006, 03:20 AM
Some people stopped using styrofoam pellets because of the mess when cleaning the whole thing up in spring. Your garden can be littered with hundreds of those chips when it is windy the day you remove them form the plant (or put them around it in autumn).

You can also use these pellets under in the pot to keep the drainage holes free of dirt. But you must never use the colored styrofoam chips. They are colored with a dye that is poisonous to plants. I found this out the hard way with some expensive carnivorous plants. After being transplanted, they would grow just fine for one or two years and then all of a sudden rot and die. I never could find the cause. Until I heard of the poisonous dyes. I checked the plants and the plants that grew healthy had only white chips at the bottom or their roots hadn't penetrated the colored chips yet. The dying plants all had roots that were penetrating colored chips. The poison does not seem to seep out of the chips just like that, the roots first had to penetrate it.

Since I only use the white chips, I haven't lost a single plant.

chong
12-01-2006, 04:27 AM
Some people stopped using styrofoam pellets because of the mess when cleaning the whole thing up in spring. Your garden can be littered with hundreds of those chips when it is windy the day you remove them form the plant (or put them around it in autumn).

You can also use these pellets under in the pot to keep the drainage holes free of dirt. But you must never use the colored styrofoam chips. They are colored with a dye that is poisonous to plants. I found this out the hard way with some expensive carnivorous plants. After being transplanted, they would grow just fine for one or two years and then all of a sudden rot and die. I never could find the cause. Until I heard of the poisonous dyes. I checked the plants and the plants that grew healthy had only white chips at the bottom or their roots hadn't penetrated the colored chips yet. The dying plants all had roots that were penetrating colored chips. The poison does not seem to seep out of the chips just like that, the roots first had to penetrate it.

Since I only use the white chips, I haven't lost a single plant.

Thanks WIM,
'Tho I don't think I've ever had a problem with colored styrofoam chips at the bottom of the pots, I will not use those again based on your explanation. No need to take any risks. Besides, the whites cost the same anyway. I will observe any differences in those I have that have color vs. the whites, as far as growth. I know that the tubular foam "pellets" do shrink and become very sticky when they get wet. So they must have some chemical that will be released when this happens.

For removing the foam peanuts, I use a shop vacuum cleaner lined with a clean plastic bag to suck them all up. Then I collect them into a larger bag for storage and future use. I think ithey're a lot less messy than bark or straw, myself. And a lot cheaper and more convenient because they're lighter. When filling up the plant's protective cover in the fall, I just open the storage bag a little and push the opening down as far as i can into the cover until the bag is empty, or the cover is full. then I close the cover. When it's too windy, common sense will dictate whether to proceed or not depending on how strong the wind is.

Thanks again for the tip.

Chong

zinniasjm
12-01-2006, 08:50 PM
Great tips and very informative. Thanks!

Naughty Bit's
04-28-2013, 01:03 PM
I started (20 years ago) using Bark Mulch, in stucco wire cages lined with plastic. Of everything I've tried it has been by far the best. I live near the end of a valley that is prone to hellish high winter winds that can create some serious Wind Chill. I have found this to be the only sure fire method here in zone 6.
However, I stopped doing it years ago because I was spending over two solid days protecting them. 10 'high missile silos way a ton when full and need to be staked well or else gravity takes over. Filling them takes forever as it involves many trips up and down the ladder with a shovel or bucket. I tried using Hay one year( Nightmare clean up ).

I protected 26 Bananas last year (my most to date) using two systems. All Bananas under 6 feet I dig up and stack like cord wood at the side of my house buried under 1 yard of Bark Mulch. Bananas come out looking pristine and the bonus is you can re plant them where you want to.

Everything bigger gets a waxed cardboard tube (Used for cement forming) lined with plastic thrown over my burlap wrapped Bananas. Before capping the tube with a bucket I stuff balled up newspaper in both ends and throw a tarp over the works. Hope this helps someone .........