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Jack Daw
06-26-2009, 05:35 PM
Hi there friends. Some time ago I was lucky enough to become one of really few people outside of India to have an opportunity and grow Musa 'Pahari Kela' or better known as Hill banana. The name Musa 'Pahari Kela' is not official, but considering the location and origin of this naner, I think that is sufficing to show the origin and in translation also growing conditions for this naner and I chose it to be my working term...

Some time ago we had an article here about Hill bananas, and back then I decided that I should try it out, mostly based on its reported hardiness. It's time to share with you, what I have gathered so far. But first, some intro:
Here's the article:

PAHARI KELA


http://www.fruitipedia.com/Image045.jpg


Family: Musaceae

Common name: Pahari kela

Hill banana is a plant of very common occurrence in the hills of North West India at elevations between 800 to 1500 m. This part has climate ranging between subtropical and temperate. The summer temperatures are around 30-32 C and the winter temperatures can go down upto -3 C. Many areas in this part also receive mild snow fall once or twice the season.

So hill banana is a very unusual banana. It is growing in this area which should not be a “banana area” considering the usual behavior of the common commercial banana varieties. It is certainly different in its behavior and has a trait of cold resistance.

Surprisingly, this banana is not known at all outside its habitat even in India.

Description:

The plants are of medium height banana plants and do not look different from the plants of commercial varieties so far as pseudostems and leaves are concerned. There is no apparent single distinguishing feature that might separate the hill banana from the commercial bananas.

http://www.fruitipedia.com/BunchEM.jpg http://www.fruitipedia.com/Sale.jpg

The fruits are thicker and larger sized than the common commercial cultivars like Poovan and Morataman. Bunches are, however, not very big. So this banana seems to be less productive. The reason for this difference may be the lack of care of plants. All the hill banana plants are growing just all by themselves and are not looked after at all. The productivity might improve if these plants are grown and looked after like cultivated plants.

The difference between a hill banana and commercial bananas, however, lies in pulp and fruit quality. The pulp of hill bananas is not as dry as that of commercial types. It is more watery and is less erect after peeling off the skin. It is somewhat leathery and does not break easily.

http://www.fruitipedia.com/Ripe%20fruits.jpg http://www.fruitipedia.com/Fruits%20open.jpg

Ripe fruits of hill banana

The taste is also slightly different. It is sweet but with a tinge of sourness.

There is feeling of heaviness in stomach after eating two fruits. So these bananas cannot be eaten as much as the commercial bananas.

Utilization:

The hill banana used to be the only banana available in the hills till 50 years ago when the other banana was not reaching there due to lack of roads and adequate goods transport facilities. So this was used like other bananas. Things changed drastically in India during the past 50 years and now the bananas from South and West India are available in the fruit shops of even every small village. So the hill banana is not in much demand now. Some fruits are still offered for sale at some places. This banana is also used for preparing a sweet vegetable curry eaten along with rice in the hills of the Indian state of Himachal Pradesh.

Cultivation:

Hill banana plants are still planted in the back yards of village homes. There are some important other uses of a banana tree besides food, especially in religious ceremonies. So this banana is going to stay in spite of the competition from commercial bananas from tropical parts.

This banana can be planted in the areas which are too cold for the commercial tropical banana varieties.

Hill banana is a valuable genetic resource and it should be utilized.


And so I contacted Dr. Parmar. He sent me the plants as soon as they started pupping up in May (of course, this was not fully legal, but because my country is not from tropics, there are NOT that restricting policies about tropical plant import, and what is not forbidden is allowed :D ).
The time of the year, when the plants started pupping - MAY - says for itself, that countries with late frosts, such as my own (where some frosts can appear as late as late April), could be very suitable for growing this naner.

I will put here as many information as I will be able to gather, thanks to sufficient freezing temperatures I might even go that far this year, that I would/could possibly try and prove, how hardy these naners actually are. I will also post here pics of my progress, troubleshooting... anything, that might be of any value to you and for the record about this banana's hardiness.

I also include the average temperature data from all those periods I briefly recorded to give you an estimate as to how fast they grow and when mostly. The temperatures weren't constant, but I state only the average MAX temperatures during the day and average MIN temperatures during the night. And to that the weather condition, rainfalls etc...


21.5.2009 [day/night 31°C (88°F)/12°C (54°F), sunny, hot and extremely dry weather with balanced humidity levels (around 55%)] I received 5 corms of Musa 'Pahari Kela' (ordered 4, but the one was due to mortality rate). They were sent sometime early May, and arrived after 3 weeks of travelling. I suspect our customs of one week hold up, because the package was at least once opened and examined.
This is what the plants looked like after unpacking from Dr. Parmar's shipment.


Corms with a semi-english lawn as a background
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090521/20090521-MusaPahariKela001.jpg

The whole shipment along with cloth it was wrapped in to compare the size of the plants
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090521/20090521-MusaPahariKela002.jpg


As I found out only later, after my initial happiness, most of the corms were in quite a bad shape. Of all the corms you see there, only 4 were showing any lifesigns and all the plant parts above the soil level were cut only a week after planting them to the garden.
I had to cut 4 of these 5 corms down to the living tissue (which was sometimes deeply below the soil level) and only after that replant them again.
I also put 2 of these plants for observation into the large plastic buckets, which were meant to protect the plants by warming up the soil from all the directions, not only the top level.
It was this plants planted in the bucket, that started to show the signs of growing as the first.
I offer you some pics below...


16.6.2009 [day/night from 25 to 30°C (77 to 85°F)/13°C (55°F), sunny, hot and dry weather with low humidity (<45%)] The small remains of once larger plants started to show initial growth, which was also the signal for me to put this small naner to the ground again.


Pahari Kela in the buckets (warming up from the sun day-long)
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090616%20-%20Erics%20shipment/20090616-Ericsshipment016.jpg
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090616%20-%20Erics%20shipment/20090616-Ericsshipment017.jpg


18.6.2009 [day/night 27°C (81°F)/13°C (55°F), sunny, hot and dry weather, low humidity] And now the same Pahari Kela plant in the ground, no damage to the root, the transplant took almost 10 seconds, no damage what-so-ever.

The growth is now quite obvious
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090618/20090618-GardenProgress018.jpg
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090618/20090618-GardenProgress019.jpg


19.6 - 25.6.2009 [day/night 23°C (73°F)/15°C (59°F), heavy rainfalls, almost no sun, calm, windy weather and extremely high humidity for the whole time (>85%)] Well, the cold spell really hit us, but PK doesn't seem to be set back or anythin like that. It's continuing with it's steady growth of 1cm a day, I think the situation will be much better, once the 1 leaf is out and the photosynthesis can do its magic. Anyways, the cold weather and heavy rainfalls seem to have given an impulse to the second pup, because the first new leafs of freshly sprouted naner are making their way to this world. This would make it 2/5 living naners so far. And there's some possible growth on the 3rd as well.

27.6.2009 [day/night 27 to 32°C (81 to 90°F)/15 to 18°C (59 to 64°F), the weather is slowly stabilizing from the cold spell that hit us a week ago, so the temps are high, yet the humidity levels remain above 75%, which could be, given the circumstances, quite tropical weather, sky's cloudy, so almost no direct sunlight for the better part of the day, when the sun comes out, the temps will fly to 32+°C (90+°F) very quickly] As I promised yesterday, more pics are available here. The cold front had left us before yestarday's heavy rainfall, so let's hope that it won't return, the temps are now slowly, but actively, going back to our summer normals. PK doesn't seem to mind weather changes and neither the drastic, cold spelled ones. Some other naners, like SDC planted in the soil just 5m of its poistion slowed down it's growth a little (yet obviously) when it hadn't seen the sun for a longer period. PK, on the contrary, hasn't slowed down a bit, but kept it's steady growth rate. However many other naners did as well, Dajiao, Grand Nain, Dwarf Brazilian, Raja Puri.... The only ones that rapidly slow down these days are basjoos, 'cause as I have observed before, they don't really like the hot weather that much and prefer the rainy and temperate days better.


See for yourself: did the cold spell any bad or not?
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090627%20-%20Pahari%20Kela%20wake%20up/20090627-PahariKela002.jpg
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090627%20-%20Pahari%20Kela%20wake%20up/20090627-PahariKela001.jpg

And now a big surprise, second PK is sprouting from the ground, there's only one leaf tip at the time, but it's starting...
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090627%20-%20Pahari%20Kela%20wake%20up/20090627-PahariKela003.jpg


1.7.2009 [day/night 29 to 33°C (84 to 93°F)/17°C (63°F), sunny, hot and extremely humid (50 ro more %) weather with very hot and sunny days and rain in the evening (about 15 minutes every day)] The weather has been wonderful, almost always at 30°C (86°F), sometimes above, sometimes very little below, almost constantly beautiful days. The pups are slowly growing and finally making progress fast enough to see it every day.
I offer you the pics of mu 2nd Pahari Kela pup and would like to hear your opinion about it. Is it a sword pup or not? Grows quite faster, much faster than the 1st Pahari Kela pup that woke up maybe a week and something earlier. Strange.


A pup in the morning
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090701/20090701-PahariKela002.jpg

The same pup in the evening
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090701/20090701-PahariKela003.jpg


2.7.2009 [day/night 32°C (90°F)/19°C (68°F), sunny, hot and dry weather (less than 35% humidity) during the day, in the evening traditionally a rain came and the humidity went above 85% with temps around 25°C for the good part of the night.]
It was very very dry day today, I was a little concerned for all the plants today, because I stopped watering them about month ago and the rain does its magic. Yet today was especially dry weather and the soil started to be dry even deeper than on the surface within few hours. Only few of the plants reacted badly to this, mostly vegetables, bananas don't mind these changes that much and neither does Pahari Kela.
What I presumed to be a sword pup, seems to really achieve the sword pup evaluation after today, it grew to 85% of its former height in something under 17 hours and will be much taller til the morning (See the pictures).
I also had to cut the overdeveloping leaf on the first pup (PK1) to sprout. That's because it started to lean real badly and the newly emerging leaf, still furled inside it, was damaged slightly, it's tip was broken off the rest of the leaf in the point (that top part in the picture, brown...), where the first petiole was leaning. So I cut the old petiole in precisely that point and it took this pup to go maybe 4cm out today. I think that this will be the first real leaf of all these pups are trying to make (just the tip will be missing).


Pahari Kela sword pup (probably, no-one confirmed it), see the day before and how much it grows - PK2
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090702%20-%20Pahari%20Kela/20090702-PahariKela003.jpg
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090702%20-%20Pahari%20Kela/20090702-PahariKela004.jpg

Newly emerging leaf from PK1
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090702%20-%20Pahari%20Kela/20090702-PahariKela001.jpg
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090702%20-%20Pahari%20Kela/20090702-PahariKela002.jpg


4.7.2009 [day/night 31°C (88°F)/17°C (63°F), sunny, hot and dry weather (less than 35% humidity) during the day, no rain today, I didn't water anything at all.]
Yep, it's here, the PK pup nr.2 has made the first official leaf in the European soil. Whohoaaa.
I watched it closely for a while and I think it's developing some pretty good coloring. Let's hope it's that fancy as I think, it should be more obvious (or obvious at all), when it catches some sunrays (unfurled only today).
It also seems that nr.3 is sprouting, but it's corm was from a good part eaten out by the ants. I've been having some discussions with the queen for the past 3 hours and I think that she understands now the need to relocate her nest much further to the grass. :D ;)
Anyways, the corm was hit pretty badly, but it also had lots of roots (many of them severed and eaten out by the ants) and there was a pup forming. Also a sprout number 4 might come soon as well, the pup seems to be growing below the surface, 'cause the soil that dries out on the surface than breaks with centre precisely where the corm was planted...
After getting rid of the ants, I put some fertilizer (really little) in there to help kick the growth of all the pups.
We might see in a week or so.


http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090704%20-%20Pahari%20Kela/20090704-PahariKela001.jpg
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090704%20-%20Pahari%20Kela/20090704-PahariKela003.jpg

13.7.2009 [day/night 30°C (86°F)/14°C (58°F), we were hit by a cold spell and the day temperatures very resembled those of the night for a day or so, we went all the way back to 18°C (64°F) day max one day and then continued to grow back to our nice temperatures again, up to 30s°C (85°F and more), the only change is in the night temps, which radically fell down by maybe 5°C - the work of the coldspell.]
Well what to add, nanas are growing even despite cold spell for a while and they actively produce about a leaf/week (or 5 to 6 days). It's a nice go actually, we'll see when they stop growing as we will be reaching 37°C (100°F) for a day maybe. Anyways, very high, so I wonder if they'll grow or stop for a while.
Here are of course some progress pics...

PK-1 on the first pic and PK-2 on the second pic...
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090712%20-%2020090731%20-%20Pahari%20Kela/20090713-PahariKela001.jpg
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090712%20-%2020090731%20-%20Pahari%20Kela/20090713-PahariKela002.jpg


13.7.2009 to 17.7.2009 [day/night 31 to 33°C (88 to 92°F)/19 to 21°C (66 to 70°F), all right, the hot wave's here again, it si very dry out and hot.]
What to add. Idle temps, idle growth, idle rest during the night, if it wasn't for the low humidity, the climatical conditions couldn't be better.


18.7.2009 [day/night 17°C (63°F)/12°C (54°F), traditionally, after the hotwave a coldwave comes. But this time it is much stronger than it used to be last 20 years or so. We are going for our summer minimums today, as the humidity rises to 95+%, wind blows at 60mph and heavy rainfalls pour from the sky. Literally, this seems more like late autumn weather, than mid July.]
Almost all the bananas stopped their growth for a day, not a leaf, not anything moved, but PKs continued with unfurling its newest leaf. Short term coldspell doesn't seem to have made such a change for this plant at all. Dwarf Brazilian also seemed quite fit with Raja Puri, whereas SDCs and DCs planted outside or in the pots started to choke that day, hteir leaves were torn and they had been recovering the next 3 days.


19.7.2009 to 23.7.2009 [day/night 31 to 35°C (88 to °F)/20 to 23°C (68 to 74°F), after the nightmarish one day of extreme lows, the humidity started to go down somewhere to 55% and the skies started to clear up. Temperatures rised the next day to 26°C and from that day on as I mentioned above... 31 to 35°C].
Reaching the highest peak of the day, 35°C, I noticed, that during the whole day, PK hasn't moved the leaf any further than it was in the morning. These temps are obviously too much for it to take and so the nana waited for the night to start growing again. To compare, DB, RP, DC, SDC were growing quite well, although a bit slowlier and basjoo stopped at almost the same time as PK.
From this I think it's almost conclusive, that any climate with summers hotter than 35°C (95°F) for longer periods of time isn't suitable for growing this naner (deserts, praires, tropical climates...).
Also, the PK 3 is starting to do some movement. This is the one, that I will force to make many pups in the winter, so the more roots it has, the better.

Musa 'Pahari Kela' 1
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090723-Bannyacitrusy005.jpg

Musa 'Pahari Kela' 2
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090723-Bannyacitrusy006.jpg

Musa 'Pahari Kela' 3
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090723-Bannyacitrusy004.jpg

Musa 'Pahari Kela' 3
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090723-Bannyacitrusy003.jpg



24.7.2009to 29.7.2009 [day/night 31 to 34°C (88 to 95°F)/18 to 22°C (64 to 71°F), very low humidity (less than 30% during the day, high only in the night) and very dry, warm days with cool, windiless nights. By the end of 29.7 it was getting somewhat strange and dark, and the new cold front was about to march in.]

30.7.2009 to 3.8.2009 [day/night 26 to 30°C (79 to 86°F)/18 to 20°C (65 to 68°F), the storms came in, winds of 60kmph or (45mph) were not rare many nights. Average day temperatures were quite high for a cold front, but rather windy. Humidity climbed to skies (75+% almost constantly).]
Some leaves were torn, mostly on older plants, PK had no thorn leaves, but small holes from very fast and cold rain drops.

4.8.2009 to 9.8.2009 [day/night 30°C (86°F)/20 (68), surpirsingly unifor and constatn weather came in, humidity in high 50s%, calm winds and pleasant, not very intensive sun.]
Both PK grew the most in this period, but then, as the new cold front comes in, almost instinctively slowed their growth. It would almost seem, that they grow in phases and its growth is dependant from the cold/hot period.
As if they knew that the cold wave was coming.
None ofthe bananas reacts before the cold front comes, so I don't understand it. DC and other take it surprisingly well.

Windy day, sorry...
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090810/20090810-Progresspics015.jpg
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090810/20090810-Progresspics016.jpg

Also a P-stem detail for fanatics. Those spots you can see there are not from insects, they are all over the p-stem and seem to be like a mark of a variety.
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090810/20090810-Progresspics018.jpg

OK, so I decided not to write each week a new temperature, but show here the official temps for my region. Add to each temperature roughly 3°C (day and night temps) to get the temperature at my place (microclimate with some lakes around and the temps are measured close to the Carpathian mountain region 10km north from me, whereas I live in a plain countryside).


August

10.8.2009 to 1.10.2009 (sorry, having university classes... so don't have much of any time now...)
Although I can't really explain this volatilitility, I discovered rather puzzling fact about these bananas. When our temps reached temps close to 30°C and the nights were quite warm, PK stopped growing for a few days. It is not temperature related, because each of them had different resting periods, with different intensity. In general, when one wasn't growing, the other one was. And when the first started, the second stopped.
The biggest surprise was, when PK pushed out an extremely long leaf after a regular one, which seemed as if the leaf tired the plant out for another 5 days.
Don't really know how to make heads or tails out of this situation. Dwarf Brazilian, Raja Puri, Dajiao... all of them have been growing nicely. Without any periodic stopping.
I also add some temp. tables. Add about 1-3°C to each temperature to see the temp at my place.

Pics are maybe week or so old, I didn't have time to take new recently.

August 2009
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Other/Temps/7bbb5443.png

September 2009
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Other/Temps/9ae0efc8.png

Pictures (PK1):
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090927/c736f500.jpg
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090927/521df4f9.jpg

Pictures (PK2):
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20090927/b13b373e.jpg




More PICS, PROGRESS and INFO WILL COME SOON
I CONTINUOSLY UPGRADE THIS FIRST POST, SO ANY AND ALL CHANGES WILL BE MADE IN A FORM OF date-based LOG ENTRIES.

Here's also the official list that I've been supposed to keep but as I found out today, I must have lost it. :D
So I'm sorry. A long shot of names that bump in my head are (according to the date I got PM). If you are not there from some reason, please, let me know, I will correct it:

1. Ante (Dalmatiansoap)
2. Chong (I will probably send with his shipment - certiphicates etc. also to people listed below)

Bob
winsorw
permaculturekidd
3. carlosfv
4. YAKUZA
5. CESAR

Bob
06-26-2009, 06:23 PM
Congratulations on your success and thanks for documenting this.

Dalmatiansoap
06-27-2009, 12:43 AM
Great report Jack. Im glad to see them growing :).
Well done and keep us posted.
:woohoonaner:

Jack Daw
07-01-2009, 11:24 AM
Thanks guys, just want to share my experience with you b4 I forget them. ;) :D

27th June 2009 - Added new pictures, weather description for these few days and some minor observations.
1st July 2009 - Added 2 pictures and a short weather description of the recent few days. Also a question included. ;)

griphuz
07-02-2009, 04:02 AM
Great initiative Jack,
I think this would be a great candidate for TC, so that the species becomes at least a little more available for naner-nuts like us!
Maybe it would also be interesting to try to find out what species it really is, scientifically speaking...
Kind regards,
Remko.

chong
07-02-2009, 04:17 AM
Thanks guys, just want to share my experience with you b4 I forget them. ;) :D

27th June 2009 - Added new pictures, weather description for these few days and some minor observations.
1st July 2009 - Added 2 pictures and a short weather description of the recent few days. Also a question included. ;)

Hello Jack,
Where do you post your pictures? When I click your gallery, I only get one picture - the one of Musa Paradisiaca sliced in half lengthwise.

Thanks.

Dalmatiansoap
07-02-2009, 06:09 AM
Hello Jack,
Where do you post your pictures? When I click your gallery, I only get one picture - the one of Musa Paradisiaca sliced in half lengthwise.

Thanks.

In 1st post. He just updates post.
:woohoonaner:

Jack Daw
07-02-2009, 07:29 AM
Firstly, also question for another nana growers: Does it seem to be a sword pup or not. It has no real leaves, it just grows to a cetain height and then makes a small tip to the side and goes again to the height in the other direction.

Hello Jack,
Where do you post your pictures? When I click your gallery, I only get one picture - the one of Musa Paradisiaca sliced in half lengthwise.

Thanks.
The pictures are uploaded always on Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket (http://www.photobucket.com) and from there it is pasted into this thread. This gives me an option to work with the pictures, resize, crop them after I see that they don't fit well for smaller screens etc.


In 1st post. He just updates post.
:woohoonaner:
Yep, Ante's right, I always update the 1st post. I made it easier to watch what's new by labelling the sections with the date they were written in (the first entry). The weather described in the brackets "[something]" briefly describes the overall and average weather of that period (few days before up to the date).
Summers here don't change that rapidly, so the rainfall and humidity are one of the most important factors there.
Also, when I add something new I also make a new post informing about the changes I made to the first post and what I actually added there. You don't really have to watch the thread, but as soon as I make a change, it sends you an e-mail with information. If you have it enabled that is.
It's a whole system. :D

Jack Daw
07-02-2009, 11:22 AM
2nd July 2009 - Added new pictures, weather description for this day and of course progress evaluation. I also had to cut one petiole back, but read on...

Jack Daw
07-04-2009, 04:21 PM
4th July 2009 - Added new pictures, the first real leaf, hoooray...!

Dalmatiansoap
07-04-2009, 05:19 PM
Bravo! It is going to be some Rock and Roll now!:ha::ha::ha:
:woohoonaner:

Bob
07-04-2009, 06:42 PM
No holding them back now. Just don't step on them like I did to one of mine today.

Jack Daw
07-05-2009, 02:07 AM
No holding them back now. Just don't step on them like I did to one of mine today.
Ou, I am really careful about this, especially when I tend to my tomatoes in the back. :D
I stepped on my Sakhalin basjoo about 5 days ago and it broke in the middle. I do not understand, how it recovered, but it's nicely erect now again with no damage at all.

momoese
07-05-2009, 01:31 PM
I don't follow the cold hardy threads so this is my first time seeing this. Very exciting for all those in cool zones! Like Remko said, you should think about TC'ing these after you get pups. Maybe even set up your own TC station and give it a shot.

harveyc
07-05-2009, 01:38 PM
Congrats, Jack! I somehow missed this thread and got to read about all of the progress all at once. Looks like you've had some success there. Hope you can get them into TC and send over here!

I'd say the pup in the 1st July photos is a sword sucker but I'm not too sure about the photo from 4th July.

Jack Daw
07-05-2009, 03:11 PM
Congrats, Jack! I somehow missed this thread and got to read about all of the progress all at once. Looks like you've had some success there. Hope you can get them into TC and send over here!

I'd say the pup in the 1st July photos is a sword sucker but I'm not too sure about the photo from 4th July.
Thanks, I hope to propagate them this winter and the next summer in somewhat different ways than TC, letting them "mutate" (no cloning probably, I will use some Central American propagating techniques, if the plants are big enough). I will also start making US generation ASAP to trade with someone in US, who has permits to distribute it to all of you.
Phyto shouldn't be a problem as long as I know which phytos are necessary for US customs. But that's a lot of time 'til then.

I thought so, that the PK-2 was a sword pup, but that leaf just got me. I think that swords are going like that, but don't form the leaf so quickly... but I've only seen the sword pups of large plants like IC or Saba. This one "only" reaches something above 3m if I recall well.

Also the leaves are unlike anything I've touched before. My Cavendishes, Grand Nains, basjoo, Dajiaos... they all have their leafs much much much softer than this plant (well, basjoo is the closest of all those touch feelings I had :D ). It also has small brown variegation unlike any Cavendish type so I'm really waiting for it to show some cool variegation with the latter leaves. Or maybe it was just the dried out soil after watering. :D

Anyways, it's quite cool, none of the nanas is so promising as this one so I really hope it will live to its Indian reputation.

cowboyup4christ
07-06-2009, 09:34 AM
Wow would love to get my hands on a couple of those, Here in NC US zone 8 they should do well, hope someone here starts growing them.
Jim

Eric
07-08-2009, 06:14 PM
Great write-up, Jack! Work of art!
Hey cowpoke, Euro zones & US zones are always much the same; might wanna check with a Koppen vegitation map, first :) (Just to be safe). Jack can tell ya more about those.

cowboyup4christ
07-08-2009, 08:09 PM
North Carolina is a strange state North Carolina is located in a warm temperate zone, its diverse regions can experience a great variety of weather conditions. While locations in the mountains may see average temperatures of 30 degrees Fahrenheit in January and 65 degrees Fahrenheit in August, locations in the coastal plains can often experience January averages in the mid 40's and August averages in the 90's. The state averages 44 inches of rainfall each year, and 5 inches of snow.

Eric
07-08-2009, 11:42 PM
Hey cowpoke, good shooting! In OK it's sand, dust, salt, and some signs of life in the east. Can see ya know your stuff; will be watching your posts to see how Pahari Kela fares in the liveable parts of the U.S.A.! :drum:

cowboyup4christ
07-09-2009, 06:22 AM
If I can find one. I have found two other Indian banana though that are suppose to be from the same region I might try to see how they do. they are Lal Kela and the Pisang Ceylon.
:nanertank:
Operation Banana



interesting article
http://www.themulch.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=134&id=662&catid=395&func=fb_pdf

Eric
07-09-2009, 11:18 AM
Hey cowpoke (wanna call ya Jim but I'd think I was talking to myself) :), in my quest for the perfect seed-type nanner, if I run across a Pahari Kela, up for grabs, I'll pm & let ya know. BTW, thanx for the extra info on SW India! Knew the northern coasts of the Adriatic sea were very similar; never gave India much thought, till now!

Jack Daw
07-09-2009, 03:58 PM
If I can find one. I have found two other Indian banana though that are suppose to be from the same region I might try to see how they do. they are Lal Kela and the Pisang Ceylon.
:nanertank:
Operation Banana



interesting article
http://www.themulch.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=134&id=662&catid=395&func=fb_pdf
Pisang Ceylon seems to be an improved Musa 'Mysore'. Resembling with it's hardiness as well.
I haven't heard about Lal Kela, could you elaborate please? The doc says it only has red fruit. :D But it's hardiness should resemble that of Pahari Kela.

But from this article it seems like if it was the Musa 'Red' we know:
Banana (http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/banana.html)

Dunno. Any more info?

Hey cowpoke (wanna call ya Jim but I'd think I was talking to myself) :), in my quest for the perfect seed-type nanner, if I run across a Pahari Kela, up for grabs, I'll pm & let ya know. BTW, thanx for the extra info on SW India! Knew the northern coasts of the Adriatic sea were very similar; never gave India much thought, till now!
Pahari Kela isn't seeded, it's edible, see the pics in the article... (I will look into flower removal as mentioned here as well)
Pahari Kela and Virupakshi (or Virupaksha) are two different species known in India as "Hill bananas" and thus considered to be the same, yet they differ in stature and fruit (and the article seems to be talking about Virupakshi).

Eric
07-09-2009, 04:12 PM
Guess I should've worded that better; In my quest for seed-nanners, I'll Also be checking out seedless ones, as well. Sorry about that :o. BTW, saw the pics when I read the thread.

Jack Daw
07-09-2009, 04:17 PM
Guess I should've worded that better; In my quest for seed-nanners, I'll Also be checking out seedless ones, as well. Sorry about that :o. BTW, saw the pics when I read the thread.
Still I wonder if it is right about that male flower things.

Jack Daw
07-09-2009, 04:27 PM
This is what I was told, when I by mistake said that I would get Virupakshi :D
Jack,
Are you getting both Pahari Kela AND Virupakshi varieties? Virupakshi is a hill banana also, but they are from South India.

Thanks.

Pahari Kela is from northern India, Virupakshi from the south India

Eric
07-09-2009, 04:32 PM
Still I wonder if it is right about that male flower things.

Ya lost me... What "male flower" thing?

Jack Daw
07-09-2009, 04:35 PM
Ya lost me... What "male flower" thing?
The article cowboy sent us, said this:

Musa spp. Pahari Kela (Hill Banana, Virupaksha). Sacred fruit of Virupaksha temple and ceremonies. Pahari means: of the mountain. Hardy to 25 deg-F. Fruit will have large, hard seeds unless male flowers (pollen) removed from plant and vicinity. Taste is more acidic than Chiquita banana, and has higher moisture content in fruit. Very susceptible to Fusarium wilt, import restrictions. Safely propagated by tissue culture.
I wonder, if I should remove male flowers or this is only the Virupakshi issue. :D

Eric
07-09-2009, 04:44 PM
The article cowboy sent us, said this:

I wonder, if I should remove male flowers or this is only the Virupakshi issue. :D

Seeds :) !! Now ya got my interest, again... in Virupakshi, anyway. Wouldn't want to torture the other with Oklahoma weather But, who knows, might be worth a greenhouse for the Virupakshi.
Didn't have time to read cowboy's article (been busy organizing info for a bamboo project). Think I'll read it, tonight.

BTW, Thanks :) ! Knew if anyone could lead me to a really interesting banan, you could!

cowboyup4christ
07-10-2009, 05:44 PM
here is another place or two for you Jim
Rare Seed Source: Musa cheesmani CHEESMAN'S COLD HARDY BANANA, Bananas, cheesman (http://rareseedsource.com/proddetail.php?prod=cheesman)
Rare Seed Source: Bananas (http://rareseedsource.com/products.php?cat=12)
Banana Seeds in retail packets for the home gardener (http://www.seedman.com/banana.htm)
Seeds From NextHarvest.com (http://www.nextharvest.com/banana.htm)
:nanertank:Operation Naner:parachutenanner: Chiles and naner? good on everything else why not:2126:

Jack Daw
07-13-2009, 08:12 AM
13th July 2009 - Added some info, weather description and of course progress pics. Enjoy. :D

Jack Daw
07-23-2009, 03:44 PM
13th to 23rd July 2009 - Added new pictures, weather descriptions for these few days etc...

Bob
07-23-2009, 04:15 PM
They are looking great Jack. I had to wonder about their fate since they didn't look so good upon arrival. Thanks for the update.

Jack Daw
07-23-2009, 04:18 PM
They are looking great Jack. I had to wonder about their fate since they didn't look so good upon arrival. Thanks for the update.
Just as I finished writting the Edit, thunderstorm began. Winds of 70mph and almsot no rain. Just cloudy sky, lots of thunders, bolts... everything but rain. The weather is terrible, when I find the nanas' leaves shredded tomorrow I think I'm gonna seriously think about erecting a anti-hail/wind-damage fence. :(

harveyc
07-23-2009, 04:35 PM
Thanks for the update. So you don't think they'd like the 100F+ temps I had last week, eh???

Too bad on the wind, but make sure your wind screen is sturdy so the wind doesn't topple it over onto your plants.

cowboyup4christ
07-23-2009, 08:35 PM
Jack I must be missing something can't find the pictures?

harveyc
07-24-2009, 12:52 AM
Jim, Jack adds them as an edit to his original post at the top of page 1....

Jack Daw
07-24-2009, 02:39 AM
Thanks for the update. So you don't think they'd like the 100F+ temps I had last week, eh???

Too bad on the wind, but make sure your wind screen is sturdy so the wind doesn't topple it over onto your plants.
Don't think might be too strong now, ey? I doubt they would like it. They like longer periods at 90°F, but anything above 95°F seems to be rather contraproductive. They would start in the night again, but if your night minimums are 86, they won't even get the chance to grow properly... :D
This temperature issue and the fact that it is more suited to colder summer climates is only good, because it perfectly follows the characteristics given by Dr. Parmar even in a completely different climate.

No windscreen in my garden. :D No need. It's just a seasonal wind, one of few.

harveyc
07-24-2009, 01:17 PM
My summer nights usually range from 58F-72F. It's very rare that we need to use our air conditioning after 9pm.

Jack Daw
07-24-2009, 01:20 PM
My summer nights usually range from 58F-72F. It's very rare that we need to use our air conditioning after 9pm.
Well those are perfect temperatures in the night.
Dunno. I never go above 95°F, which is an extreme here, one or few days only. :D Some summers yes, we do to 103 or more, but those are historical records...
Btw. Almost everyday teh temps here are above 30°C, yet there's no air-conditioning anywhere. :D

Btw Harvey, your weather sticker is broken or something... it always shows the strangest temperatures for your region. ;)

harveyc
07-24-2009, 01:41 PM
My weather banner is not broken. It is sometimes off a few degrees due to a delay in the reporting station and the location of that station is usually a bit cooler during the day than my place. The banner presently shows 71F but I am actually 75F. A cooler day than normal, but I'm not complaining!

Jack Daw
08-10-2009, 05:30 AM
24th July to 9th August added.

Eric
08-10-2009, 11:18 AM
Hi Jack :). Just took time to go back through the thread. Been Very busy with new stuff here. PK-3 seems to have some pretty good roots despite the ant attack. Didn't see pics of the top, though. Has it leafed any, yet?
BTW: Congratulations on an outstanding thread :) ! It's been a real education, so far!
And PK-2 & PK-1 are looking awesome, great work!
Haven't seen recent pics for PK-4. Did it make it?

Jack Daw
08-10-2009, 11:25 AM
Hi Jack :). Just took time to go back through the thread. Been Very busy with new stuff here. PK-3 seems to have some pretty good roots despite the ant attack. Didn't see pics of the top, though. Has it leafed any, yet?
BTW: Congratulations on an outstanding thread :) ! It's been a real education, so far!
And PK-2 & PK-1 are looking awesome, great work!
Haven't seen recent pics for PK-4. Did it make it?
PK-3 is in the greenhouse, it had no top and so I decided to try one propagation technique on it. We'll see, how it works, in the worst case, nothing bad will happen.
PK-4 rotted. :(

Eric
08-10-2009, 11:37 AM
PK-3 is in the greenhouse, it had no top and so I decided to try one propagation technique on it. We'll see, how it works, in the worst case, nothing bad will happen.
PK-4 rotted. :(

Sorry to hear about PK-4 :(. But for the condition the corms were in upon arrival, I'd say you've done an incredible job :drum: :) !! Best of luck on PK-3. Never realized ants could be so destructive to a nanner & we've got lots of ants here.... If I see any, think I'll use your diplomatic method for rapid relocations ;) !

Jack Daw
08-10-2009, 01:13 PM
Sorry to hear about PK-4 :(. But for the condition the corms were in upon arrival, I'd say you've done an incredible job :drum: :) !! Best of luck on PK-3. Never realized ants could be so destructive to a nanner & we've got lots of ants here.... If I see any, think I'll use your diplomatic method for rapid relocations ;) !
Oh yeah, I never gave nr.4 that much of a chance, but I hoped for the best. It had no roots and dare I say it no corm. It was bound to die sooner or later. Now I just have to make sure that the PK-3 won't rot either, as it is now wide open and kept in humid environment.

Bob
08-10-2009, 03:24 PM
Thanks for the update, I look forward to see how they do. If I were you I'd work out a future trade with marenmar for the "holy grail". (assuming you guys can ship to each other).

Jack Daw
08-10-2009, 03:35 PM
Thanks for the update, I look forward to see how they do. If I were you I'd work out a future trade with marenmar for the "holy grail". (assuming you guys can ship to each other).
Everything was taken care of. :D Marguerite also has some other grails. ;) It is cool how everyone of us from Europe has something unique and different, we can swap and swap and swap all over again. :D And the only thing we won't have are those cultivars grown abroad (Californias, FHIAs...)

Bob
08-10-2009, 03:51 PM
oh good, I'll have to take some pics tonight (just hit 100F on thermometer in dappled shade here, this is always hottest part of the day. Have all the Ca.'s, as well as FHIA 1 " Goldfinger" and a couple if FHIA 23's their attempt at a Gros Michel type. I might not need both of those in a week or so, more on that later.:waving:

Jack Daw
08-10-2009, 03:54 PM
oh good, I'll have to take some pics tonight (just hit 100F on thermometer in dappled shade here, this is always hottest part of the day. Have all the Ca.'s, as well as FHIA 1 " Goldfinger" and a couple if FHIA 23's their attempt at a Gros Michel type. I might not need both of those in a week or so, more on that later.:waving:
I've heard (from tropical growers), that FHIA bananas are inferior to any plantain grown widely in the topic, because they have high yields despite good quality of fruit and therefore local pantains are much more preferred by the locals. Not only because of superior taste. Dunno.

Bob
08-10-2009, 04:09 PM
The two I mentioned aren't plantains goldfinger is a finger banana and the other the GM imitation. Both are highly touted . I'll know when I get fruit.

Jack Daw
08-10-2009, 04:11 PM
The two I mentioned aren't plantains goldfinger is a finger banana and the other the GM imitation. Both are highly touted . I'll know when I get fruit.
I believe that any homegrown banana will test exquisitelly. :D But in general this is what most of the people from tropical market say. Except Hundurans of course. ;)

permaculturekidd
10-02-2009, 09:24 PM
*bump*

Picture Update ?! :bunchonanas:

:-D

Jack Daw
10-03-2009, 02:19 AM
OK, update there, sorry guys, I don't have much time these days. :(

Eric
10-03-2009, 07:58 AM
I know youre Very busy so Thanx for the update :) !! That's some great growth for one summer! Didnt see PK-3 though. Is it still alive? Although, shouldn't matter much with 2 plants as big & healthy as PK-1 & PK-2 are. You've done an outstanding job :) !!
You seemed concerned with growth stopping. A similar thing happens with Gingko Biloba trees. It's normal for them to put on a lot of new growth, one year, then no growth the next year - even under identical growing conditions. Nobody has found an explanation for that, either. Gingkos have been around since the Jurassic period. Strange how some plants act.
I'd say good luck But what you got was more from skill & experience. Super job, hope the weather & stuff works out great for you!!

Jack Daw
10-03-2009, 08:01 AM
I know youre Very busy so Thanx for the update :) !! That's some great growth for one summer! Didnt see PK-3 though. Is it still alive? Although, shouldn't matter much with 2 plants as big & healthy as PK-1 & PK-2 are. You've done an outstanding job :) !!
You seemed concerned with growth stopping. A similar thing happens with Gingko Biloba trees. It's normal for them to put on a lot of new growth, one year, then no growth the next year - even under identical growing conditions. Nobody has found an explanation for that, either. Gingkos have been around since the Jurassic period. Strange how some plants act.
I'd say good luck But what you got was more from skill & experience. Super job, hope the weather & stuff works out great for you!!
Thanks Eric, I hope so too, but nights are getting chilly already, just like yours, so it's one race til I get enough pots. It owuld be maybe foolish to try and overwinter them like this, what is your opinion? PK3 rotted and died, I pulled it out to save the baby, but the rot was there already and removing infected tissue didn't help. :(

Eric
10-03-2009, 08:30 AM
Thanks Eric, I hope so too, but nights are getting chilly already, just like yours, so it's one race til I get enough pots. It owuld be maybe foolish to try and overwinter them like this, what is your opinion? PK3 rotted and died, I pulled it out to save the baby, but the rot was there already and removing infected tissue didn't help. :(

Well, at least that's 2 super healthy ones out of 3 :) !! I'd say "out of 4" but PK-4 didnt stand a chance without roots & about no corm.
If those 2 healthy PKs were mine, I'd probably over-react - I'd pot them up, bring them in, & put them under bright lights in a sunny, warm window. As far as cutting off leaves & over-wintering dormant, I wouldn't be willing to take that chance. I've noticed, from experience, that even in a cool room (10-20 degrees C), potted dormant bananas may lose leaves by spring but seem to have a better chance at re-starting as the weather warms up. Also, unless, the leaves start looking bad, I dont water them cause they're growing slow and I dont wanna risk corm-rot.
I'm no expert but I would (if they were mine) pot them, give them as much light as I possibly could, keep them warm, and give them Very Little water or food till spring. I never risk "dormant" with plants that small.
Btw, I know all about that "Race" :(. Been running my a*s off too :eek: !! Saved my Australian Fern tree, last night, but it had already lost 2 fronds - still has 4 huge healthy ones, though, yay! Will have to rush to save Diefenbachias, nanners, elephant ears, etc.... Got some colder weather moving in :(. Good thing i've got lots of plastic pots!

Dalmatiansoap
04-04-2010, 04:25 AM
BUMP Jack!
:lurk:
any updates, new pics?

Jack Daw
04-04-2010, 04:28 AM
BUMP Jack!
:lurk:
any updates, new pics?
Soon. :D THey're breaking the dormancy outside. So far, 0°C has been the lowest low but I dare for more this year. Without any significant problems of course...

Jack Daw
08-02-2010, 10:46 AM
So, breaking the dormancy... well, time for the update, ay?

First of all, let me apologize to all who have been PMing me and anxiously awaiting any and all progress. I've been a busy bee these past months and had only little time to work in the garden... thus fell ashamed of showing the "progress" my plants've achieved.

Let me however start by some observations:
In April, when the soil was still kinda cold (it wasn't warm at all, bad winter of 2010 in Europe), I was sort of willing to conduct a first test. Hoping for and seeing some low temps in the morning (-3°C ~ 25°F) and highs of 4-6°C or 38-42°F I decided to plant the smaller, weaker, more stunned PK.
Unfortunatelly, during planting, I found out that it's roots were dried up from maybe 65%. Regardless of that I planted the naner in theground and let it grow. Following warm week forced the pup into putting out a new leaf.
However than the horror came. Cold front literally tore the leaf apart and the rest was finished by 2 consecutive days below 0°C or 32°F. I was let the pup be and it came back 1 month later. The P-stem was somewhat mushy, but it wan't rotting (to my surprise). However the plant was so stunned by what I exposed it to, that it grows at snail's pace even today. Still not having sufficient root structure.

Then there are other veggies growing all over the place now, taking necessary nutrients.

Pix will follow, when I clean up the place a lil bit.

And then about the other pup:
It grew strongly in April (kept it inside for nights and during the cold streak even the days) and in May it was planted in front of a south-north wall, facing the south side, along with raspberries.

It's grown nicely up until the heat wave of July came (95+°F). These temps caused PK to stop growing at all and restart the growth once the temps have been cooler.

This leads me to believing, that it's not very suitable to hot summer and cold winter climates.


Pic: (its height can be estimated from those blue things hanging on the wall at 180cm~70in).
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20100802/DSC00052.jpg
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20100802/DSC00048.jpg
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq201/Jackob_Daw/Exotika%20-%20banany/20100802/DSC00047.jpg



No pups. Neither plant has brought any pup, so this limits my experiments a lot. :(

DaveE
08-02-2010, 11:09 AM
Thanks for the update!

Dean W.
08-02-2010, 02:40 PM
Yeah, thanks for the update and nice too.:0519:

Dalmatiansoap
02-20-2011, 02:52 PM
BUUUUMP!!!
let us know whats with it Jack

Bob
02-22-2011, 05:29 PM
BUUUUMP!!!
let us know whats with it Jack


Yeah!.............and what do you want in trade?:ha:

SAPL
05-24-2012, 02:18 AM
Your Excellent photographs and detailed observations really impressed me!!! Have the banana started fruiting?

Dalmatiansoap
10-29-2012, 02:45 PM
BUUUUMP!!!
let us know whats with it Jack

:woohoonaner:

brothertom2020
10-29-2012, 04:40 PM
Yo Cowboy: If those temple nanners, will grow in zone 7a, I would love to get some seed, or a corm to try out. Thanks so much Stay Sfe, Pray for our members on the east coast, they are gonna catch hell!

Tom Portland, OR.

Hammocked Banana
11-27-2012, 06:28 PM
How did this banana work out for u jack?

banana13
01-15-2013, 07:03 PM
Yes, have they fruited yet?

banana13
01-20-2013, 02:08 PM
I wonder if perhaps the pseudo stem can survive a (US) zone 5 winter. If the banana is really grown in areas where the temperature can become so low, maybe the banana is like Basjoo and will survive a hard freeze if mulched. That would mean that we would have an edible version of basjoo for the north!:woohoonaner:

designshark
01-21-2013, 09:18 AM
I wonder if perhaps the pseudo stem can survive a (US) zone 5 winter. If the banana is really grown in areas where the temperature can become so low, maybe the banana is like Basjoo and will survive a hard freeze if mulched. That would mean that we would have an edible version of basjoo for the north!:woohoonaner:

Wouldn't that be awesome. One could possibly find a micro climate like against a house foundation or something. :woohoonaner:

banana13
03-27-2013, 11:06 AM
bump

banana13
07-19-2013, 09:00 PM
Ok, here i go:

BUMP!!!!

I really want to know what's up! HOws it doin for ya?

lpatelski
07-20-2013, 07:34 AM
PLEASE GIVE US AN UPDATE. I am interested in the natural, edible, cold hardy bananas; as is everyone from up North in the States. This is an amazing cultivar.:bananajoy:

harveyc
07-20-2013, 12:08 PM
Jack hasn't visited the org since Octrober 2012 and his last post was August 2012 so I don't believe bumping this thread will get his attention. I imagine if he had good news to report he would have posted about that a long time ago.

Yuri Barros
07-21-2013, 07:07 AM
Nice thread................:08:

banana13
08-02-2013, 02:16 PM
Jack hasn't visited the org since Octrober 2012 and his last post was August 2012 so I don't believe bumping this thread will get his attention. I imagine if he had good news to report he would have posted about that a long time ago.


Wierd. I wanted to know what's up.

dana mastro
11-06-2013, 09:25 AM
I would love to hybridize this hill banana with a veinte cohol or a gold finger let me know if you have any pups for sale next year ill definitely be cross breeding it!

Hammocked Banana
11-06-2013, 02:25 PM
In Idaho??? Good luck with that...