View Full Version : "Organic" Fertillizer
conejov
04-30-2009, 08:15 PM
Hey Guys I wanted to know if you guys use any type of natural fertillizer. Im currelty putting compost on all my plants naners and other fruit trees. I would like to stick to "organic" natural" fertillizers that will still help the trees to grow big and strong.
I have a few fruit trees that I've had for 2-3 yrs but they are scrawny, maybe Im being impatient but what can I use to help them grow alittle thicker.
The reason I would preffer to use "natural" fertillizers is because I am going to eat their fruits. (I was traumatized by Micheal Pollans book "the Omnivores Dilema")
Any suggestions will be appreccieated.
ron_mcb
04-30-2009, 11:00 PM
you can use free nitrogen method ..urinate in your flowering can and mix it with 8 to 10 parts water to dilute it..dont flush down all of that free fetilizer.dont store urine use it right away. the fresher the better. urine contains other minerals good for plants also.
for potassium if you have a fire place use the ashes collect them and use them around your plants only once a year because alkalinity can build up and remain long after the potassium has diluted. dont use this stuff around acid loving plants like azealias because it contains lots of lime.it contains phoshorus too
you can use the stalks of the bananas itself once the season is done cut up some of the stalks and leaves. its easier done while the stuff is still green.try to turn a lot of the garden greenage into compost.use any greenage from table scraps..avoid using meat products unless you want dogs and other carnivores in your yard.. remember the urine formula for every part urine use 8-10 parts water try pouring a little urine over your compost to speed up the decomposition...good luck going green.
Jack Daw
05-01-2009, 02:51 PM
Or you can use horse manure. I do and it never disappoints me. 10 litres of water to a small plate of horse excrements... Enjoy... I'm disgusting :D
conejov
05-01-2009, 05:47 PM
Just out of curiosity what type of Fertillizers would you guys recommend? I have different types Fruit Trees, I have Citrus, pear,Peach,mango,apple Trees and Naners.
i know they each require something different.
Does every one use Synthetic Fertillizers?
NotherNana
05-01-2009, 07:05 PM
I go organic too, with all of my vegetable and fruit crops. I use composting, urine method already mentioned, and rock minerals, powdered.
conejov
05-01-2009, 07:11 PM
you can use free nitrogen meothod ..urinate in your flowering can and mix it with 8 to 10 parts water to dilute it..dont flush down all of that free fetilizer.dont store urine use it right away. the fresher the better. urine contains other minerals good for plants also.
for potassium if you have a fire place use the ashes collect them and use them around your plants only once a year because alkalinity can build up and remain long after the potassium has diluted. dont use this stuff around acid loving plants like azealias because it contains lots of lime.it contains phoshorus too
you can use the stalks of the bananas itself once the season is done cut up some of the stalks and leaves. its easier done while the stuff is still green.try to turn a lot of the garden greenage into compost.use any greenage from table scraps..avoid using meat products unless you want dogs and other carnivores in your yard.. remember the urine formula for every part urine use 8-10 parts water try puring a little urine over your compost to speed ut the decomposition...good luck going green.
You know I have never heard of the Urine method Thats interesting .. Its crazy enough I just might try it.
Lagniappe
05-01-2009, 07:12 PM
Does every one use Synthetic Fertillizers?
I don't, I'm using coffee grounds, oak leaves, manure ,and molasses.
conejov
05-01-2009, 08:03 PM
I just happened to drive by the closest nursery just to look and see what they had, and saw somethings that I think are natural fertillizers:
Bone Meal
Blood Meal,
Fish Fertillizer
Bat guano.
However I dont know what work best for either of the trees. Any Suggestions?
NotherNana
05-01-2009, 10:15 PM
Actually human urine has uses other than fertilizer. Many people use it to 'mark off' and area that they want wildlife to stay out of. I.E.: Animals such as deer, rabbits or squirrels tend to stay away from the gardens marked off in such a way :) I have trouble with squirrels munching on some of my newer, (or even certain species) of plants, and it seems to work if replaced every couple of weeks or more often it we get a good rain...
PT DUffy
05-02-2009, 06:11 AM
I've found with Organic Commercial Fertilizers one formulated for Citrus is usually good enough for Fruit-bearing plants...
paula
05-02-2009, 09:20 AM
How much coffee grounds can you use on your garden? I have a pot of coffee
every day and spread the spent coffee in my flower beds . But I don't know if
you can put much in. I have noticed a lot more worms, which is good.
paula
05-02-2009, 09:29 AM
I thought this would be helpful. Besides I was curious .
Instructions
1.
Step 1
Collect urine daily. Keep a tight-lidded plastic container in the bathroom and use instead of flushing urine down the toilet. Fresh urine does not smell and does not carry bacteria. In fact, it is almost sterile. Keep the urine lidded tightly and change out containers frequently.
2.
Step 2
Use urine daily. As urine ages (more than about 24 hours), it begins to break down and create higher ammonia levels which are not good for plants and which make the urine smell bad. Fresh urine generally does not smell. Any odors from strong foods like garlic or asparagus will not harm the plants. Take the collected urine out of the house at least once per day to fertilize plants.
3.
Step 3
Mix urine in the ratio of one part urine to ten parts water. This dilutes the urine's nitrogen content enough to use on tender plants. Using urine full strength will burn tender plant leaves. Use the diluted urine on plants immediately and do not store, either full strength or diluted.
4.
Step 4
Water around the roots of plants with the diluted urine fertilizer. Fertilizer in general may burn tender plant leaves so try not to splash on leaves or fruits. The dilution will allow you to water daily and it can be used in container plants and hanging baskets as well. Water until the soil surrounding the plants' roots is saturated but do not allow plant roots to sit in puddled water.
5.
Step 5
Check the growth of the fertilized plants regularly. If the leaves begin to take on a yellowish tinge and the plant looks like it is struggling, dilute the urine fertilizer further to prevent the plant from receiving more nitrogen than it needs. If fruiting plants grow lush vegetation but no fruit, cut back on the amount of urine fertilizer they are receiving.
6.
Step 6
Use any leftover urine to keep predators out of your garden. This works especially well with male urine, which contains hormones that other animals take as being a signal to stay away. Pour small amounts of undiluted urine around the perimeter of the area to be protected. This will have to be repeated after every rain shower as the rain will dilute the urine.
paula
05-02-2009, 09:41 AM
I also found this for house plants.
How to use urine as fertilizer | Wonder How To (http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-use-urine-as-fertilizer-242815/view/)
CookieCows
05-02-2009, 10:08 AM
I'm sorry but I've got two things going on. First my gag reflex is kicking in and second I have visions of the marking thing. :ha: Won't the wild animals just come along and mark right after you, rendering your mark invalid?
I know people who will plant their gardens over their leach lines (my mother inlaw included) but I won't do it as I'm too afraid of contaminents with low lying things like melons. But I understand that you're only talking about urine so that is different I guess ... I'm just a gaggy person, I have trouble with the toothbrush too early in the morning. LOL
Am editing this as I forgot to mention what we use for fertilizer. We are on a farm so we use composted cow/horse manure and pond water. I'll add non organic fertilizer off and on as needed with the tropicals and flowers though.
Deb
turtile
05-02-2009, 01:47 PM
I use both. Organic fertilizer isn't any safer than chemical fertilizer. Placing organic material into the soil provides slow release fertilizer and also improves the soil while chemical fertilizers will provide a significant amount of nutrients when you feed the plants.
Plants can only take up non-organic forms of nutrients (with the exception of urea - only a small amount - urea also breaks down into ammonium and nitrate).
For example, ammonium nitrate has both plant available forms of nitrogen. If you provide horse manure, the nitrogen will break down into ammonium and nitrate.
ron_mcb
05-02-2009, 09:53 PM
I don't, I'm using coffee grounds, oak leaves, manure ,and molasses.
give this man an award.....i dont know why i forgot about the leaves..oak leaves and pecan leaves .those leaves are high in acid..bananas and azaleas love acid.. before i forget lay down a thin layer of newspaper between your banana stems like you would do with the landscaping fabric and pin it down..to a degree this prevents weeds from popping so fast and helps retain moisture,you can cut down on mulch and will be eventually broken down and become food too. i try to use a lot of organic fertilizer but i do use high potassium commercial fertilizer sparingly...this is the second year on the same small bag and im not half way thru it..also if you are adding worms to the soil to help you out..dont use so much of that commercial fert..it will prolly kill them.
paula
05-03-2009, 09:15 AM
Can you crush potassium pills up and put around your plants someone told me to use around my tomatoes, If so how much and what plants can I do this to?
Thanks Paula
turtile
05-03-2009, 01:34 PM
Can you crush potassium pills up and put around your plants someone told me to use around my tomatoes, If so how much and what plants can I do this to?
Thanks Paula
You could but you would be wasting your money. My multivitamins have potassium chloride in them which is the cheapest and most common form of potassium fertilizer used for plants.
I use potassium sulfate on my plants which contains both potassium and sulfur. Tomato plants need much more sulfur than chlorine. If you apply either potassium sulfate or potassium chloride on your tomatoes, you should apply an equal amount of magnesium sulfate (Epsom Salts) as the high potassium can cause a magnesium deficiency in the plants.
Also remember to apply calcium which is very important to prevent blossom end-rot. Gypsum is a good fertilizer to use. It must be incorporated into the soil since it doesn't move around much in the soil. Only the calcium present right around the root will be taken up. High nitrogen fertilizer should never be used while the plants are flower/fruiting.
paula
05-03-2009, 02:06 PM
Ok , can you tell me how much of each and how often?
Thank you
lorax
05-03-2009, 02:12 PM
I use horse manure, urine, mollasses, walnut leaves to inhibit weed growth, my own compost (from kitchen wastes), and once a year I go to Volcan Tungurahua, pick up a couple of buckets full of ash, and turn that into my soils before replanting. I also occasionally turn sardines or fish waste into the banana patch. Then again, I'm working with insanely rich soils to begin with; I've found that in some cases I don't have to do anything at all (as with my Papayas and Walnuts).
In serious situations with my oranges and limes I use a commercial citrus fert.
conejov
05-04-2009, 12:54 PM
Wow thank you, For the great input guys, Any of you tried making your own compost tea? is it necessary to use an aquarium bubble machine?
conejov
05-04-2009, 01:04 PM
Also has anyone used Bat guano. I understand that most of the ones Im mentioning are more of a soil additives.
ron_mcb
05-04-2009, 06:22 PM
Also has anyone used Bat guano. I understand that most of the ones Im mentioning are more of a soil additives.
bat guano is just bat droppings..bat guano basically has an n.p.k. value of 10-3-1 very high in nitrogen. n-nitrogen p-phosphorus k-potassium...there you go. you basically use the urine method (45% N) and save money rather than buy the bat guano. if you like the idea of using bat poop on your plants go ahead.
there are a lot of people who will argue about using natural methods and claim that they never use commercial chemicals..they probabaly do. i use both(usually potasium only). using manure is no safer than using commercial chemical fert..there is a possibilty that pathogens can be transmitted to your food from animal waste fertilizers if its not aged well or composted.
turtile
05-04-2009, 09:21 PM
Ok , can you tell me how much of each and how often?
Thank you
1 part urea | 1/3 phosphorus (supertriple phosphate) | 1 part potassium sulfate | 2/3 part Magnesium sulfate (epsom salts) | 2/3 part Gypsum
I would guess that your plants a pretty small right now. I would sprinkle some around the plants and incorporate it into the soil. Once they get bigger, add 2 to 3 teaspoons per plant every 1-2 weeks. Lower the urea to 2/3 part at the end of July.
NotherNana
05-05-2009, 05:11 AM
Last year Nicci and me did a veggie garden, and every book I could get my hands on mentioned how good compost tea is to use. So we did. It did seem to help. A great publishing company to buy books from that supports the use of 'going organic' is :'RODALES'. their books are very comprehensive, although they basically deal with canning, growing, etc. I have not seen a book they publish dealing with tropical plants such as bananas, but the information they supplies me was useful nonetheless. :)
Gino
conejov
05-05-2009, 11:12 AM
Last year Nicci and me did a veggie garden, and every book I could get my hands on mentioned how good compost tea is to use. So we did. It did seem to help. A great publishing company to buy books from that supports the use of 'going organic' is :'RODALES'. their books are very comprehensive, although they basically deal with canning, growing, etc. I have not seen a book they publish dealing with tropical plants such as bananas, but the information they supplies me was useful nonetheless. :)
Gino
Thanks for the suggestion I will look into them I think I have one of their books "the Frugal Gardner" which has lots of useful info.
organicprojim
05-23-2009, 04:12 PM
I have been growing verything with organics for a number of years now and find that I am getting very high quality fruit with all of the nutrients they are supposed to have. For fertilizer I have ended up using fish hydrolysate made from catfish by MegaGreen. Great stuff. I use it with a complete natural soil amendment called Truf & Garden Pro made by TurfPro USA along with kelp to complete the nutrient package with its high potassium content. Kelp is hard to get but much higher in potasium than the 'Sea Weed' products mostly find on the market. I mix it four parts fertilizer to 1 part soil amendment to 1/4 part kelp.
This fertilizer has amino acids in it bsides the N-P-K where the T & G Pro has many trace elements along with a great asortment of soil biology. Laboratory test have shown that it can inhibit fusarium wilt in the soil along with having nitrogen fixing biology. The kelp besides giving me my potasium adds more of the trace elements required for growth.
Several times a year I use the Turf & Garden Pro with Iron by itself as a foliar spray.
When planting new banana plants I mix in some Turf Pro dry fines to raise the biology count and to further protect against soil pathogens.
I have never had to use any pesticides or fungicides so my soil is very healthy and the bananas grow the way I want them.
Not for everyone but it makes me feel that I am helping to protect my family, the envirnment, my pets and wildlife.
NotherNana
05-24-2009, 09:12 AM
Jim,
I grow only organic too, and find it, like you; very important to environment. I have a lot more bug issues than you though...must be because further south in FL than you? So sometimes have to use the 'soap water' trick on them....other times the insects are actually going to become beautiful butterflies or even day moths and I have to sacrifice a few leaves so they can crysallize. :)
Gino
supermario
05-24-2009, 09:44 AM
I have never had to use any pesticides or fungicides so my soil is very healthy and the bananas grow the way I want them
Never used pesticides? You must not have any citrus trees! Other than bananas, what fruit trees do you have?..and what do you do to combat the insects?
I grow my veggies 100% organic. My fruits on the other hand, I resort to a 50/50 mix because it is easier on the wallet. I also spray Liquid Copper Fungicide... don't know if that is considered organic or not.. :lurk:
YAKUZA
05-24-2009, 09:52 AM
i use a chemical fertilizer, sorry.
the n.p.k is 15.15.15
works fine but improvemend is allways welkom. (bananas)
For vedgie i use natural fertilizers (biogrow,biobloom end topmax from biobizz)
organicprojim
05-25-2009, 11:12 AM
Gino, Yes, I am in the Orlando area. I would try the TurfPro USA products to see if they can naturally reduce your problem with with insects and pathogens. I started using it about four years ago on my bromeliad and orchid collections. I saw a presentation on they products at an orchid meeting and bought some to try to work with the fertilizer for better growth. So I sprayed it on my bromeliad to see if it would give me controlled growth of them.As with most growers I had been fighting scale for a long time. I look at them after about three treatment and found that the scale was gone. I have not had problems with scale since. I am careful of the amount I use on blooming orchids because it does stain them.
I was down your way not long ago and was at a nursey I thing was called Schrivners or something like and they had the Turf & Garden Pro in stock.
It is always great to talk to other organic growers.
Jim
supermario
05-25-2009, 12:40 PM
Gino, Yes, I am in the Orlando area. I would try the TurfPro USA products to see if they can naturally reduce your problem with with insects and pathogens. I started using it about four years ago on my bromeliad and orchid collections. I saw a presentation on they products at an orchid meeting and bought some to try to work with the fertilizer for better growth. So I sprayed it on my bromeliad to see if it would give me controlled growth of them.As with most growers I had been fighting scale for a long time. I look at them after about three treatment and found that the scale was gone. I have not had problems with scale since. I am careful of the amount I use on blooming orchids because it does stain them.
I was down your way not long ago and was at a nursey I thing was called Schrivners or something like and they had the Turf & Garden Pro in stock.
It is always great to talk to other organic growers.
Jim
SPAM ALERT!!
No wonder he didn't even bother responding to my question.. Turns out organicJim is actually a representative for TurfPro. Check out his fake review on DavesGarden Watchdog(Im so glad I found this site!)
The scoop on 'TurfPro USA' (http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/c/5673/)
I personally doubt anything with the word 'Turf' in it is any good for fruiting plants.
Rmplmnz
05-25-2009, 05:26 PM
Never used pesticides? You must not have any citrus trees! Other than bananas, what fruit trees do you have?..and what do you do to combat the insects?
I grow my veggies 100% organic. My fruits on the other hand, I resort to a 50/50 mix because it is easier on the wallet. I also spray Liquid Copper Fungicide... don't know if that is considered organic or not.. :lurk:
I have grown Citrus trees for over 20 years and never used pesticides on them.....no problemo..let the lady bugs eat the aphids or soapy water.
:02:
supermario
05-25-2009, 06:12 PM
I've heard of the soapy water trick, but never an exact ratio... How much soap to water should I use?
Rmplmnz
05-25-2009, 06:19 PM
It works great...dish soap....in the range of 5:1 o 10:1,,,
A quick Google search yielded this link:
Insect Control: Soaps and Detergents (http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/insect/05547.html)
botulismo
05-27-2009, 06:26 AM
Now my reply isn't going to be nearly as creative, but there's an organic fertilizer by the brand Kellogg's that's sold at most big box home improvement stores that is a 4-4-4 complete - they have a couple others in different balances - that is a blend of organic fertilizers and soil bacteria.
I've had pretty good luck with it, been using it this year on everything in the yard. It works in a pinch if you're feeling lazy.
I've always said that organic gardening will catch on once it's as easy to go organic as it is to garden normally, and I definitely think products like this have a place and are superior to chemical fertilizers. Now, organic purists may cry out that there are superior ways to do things (and I won't argue that) but this is a good second place alternative that I have found pretty helpful.
supermario
05-27-2009, 09:17 AM
Now my reply isn't going to be nearly as creative, but there's an organic fertilizer by the brand Kellogg's that's sold at most big box home improvement stores that is a 4-4-4 complete - they have a couple others in different balances - that is a blend of organic fertilizers and soil bacteria.
I've had pretty good luck with it, been using it this year on everything in the yard. It works in a pinch if you're feeling lazy.
I've always said that organic gardening will catch on once it's as easy to go organic as it is to garden normally, and I definitely think products like this have a place and are superior to chemical fertilizers. Now, organic purists may cry out that there are superior ways to do things (and I won't argue that) but this is a good second place alternative that I have found pretty helpful.
I have heard alot about kellogg's organic fertilizer lately. I have a few questions regarding their products. How much does it cost per lb? How much would you need to apply(and how often) to a full grown fruit tree?
I ask because I have more than 15 fruit trees. So, I usually have to buy 3, 50 lb bags of fertilizer for $20-$30/each. If I need 150lbs of 100% organic fertilizer, I'm scared to think what the cost would be...
bluesky
06-03-2009, 02:20 PM
I have a question about feeding nana trees, would Osmocote (the acidic one, purple label not the pink label) work for them?
conejov
06-03-2009, 03:13 PM
I've tried finding a Organic fertilizer with a High nitrogen & potassium but no luck any suggestions I've read that greensand and Kelp would be good but from what I can see they have usually a low Potassium.
turtile
06-03-2009, 11:44 PM
I've tried finding a Organic fertilizer with a High nitrogen & potassium but no luck any suggestions I've read that greensand and Kelp would be good but from what I can see they have usually a low Potassium.
There isn't an organic form of potassium. Just about all potassium used as fertilizer is mined. If you purchase "organic" foods, the potassium is the same as any other "non-organic" food. There really is not difference between greensand and any other fertilizer that contains potassium (except for the fact that greensand barely has any potassium).
Urea is a real organic form of nitrogen. It was actually the first organic chemical made synthetically (proved that it could be done).
conejov
06-27-2009, 12:32 AM
BUmp
Richard
06-27-2009, 11:00 AM
The word "organic" by itself is meaningless. You will need to be more specific for others to understand. Here is a list of several intended meanings and uses of "organic fertilizer": PTP_2008_09_Organic (http://www.plantsthatproduce.com/column/PTP_2008_09_Organic.htm)
conejov
06-27-2009, 01:53 PM
The word "organic" by itself is meaningless. You will need to be more specific for others to understand. Here is a list of several intended meanings and uses of "organic fertilizer": PTP_2008_09_Organic (http://www.plantsthatproduce.com/column/PTP_2008_09_Organic.htm)
Thanks for the link Richard.
conejov
06-27-2009, 02:01 PM
Organic Fertilizers derived from plant, animal or mineral resources combined with organic matter are ideal for enhancing soil fertility and stimulating plant growth in a sustainable and environmentally friendly way. Organic fertilizers add nutrients to the soil for uptake by plants and for use by the myriad of microorganisms that inhabit healthy, productive soil.
So would that be Earth Friendly?
Richard
06-27-2009, 05:48 PM
Organic Fertilizers derived from plant, animal or mineral resources combined with organic matter are ideal for enhancing soil fertility and stimulating plant growth in a sustainable and environmentally friendly way. Organic fertilizers add nutrients to the soil for uptake by plants and for use by the myriad of microorganisms that inhabit healthy, productive soil.
So would that be Earth Friendly?
I don't know, but "combined with organic matter" can mean "combined with sewage sludge" unless the label says "contains no sewage sludge".
Further, when we grow plants that are not native to the ecology of our local environment it is rarely environmentally friendly -- no matter what the source of nutrients and amendments we use.
supermario
07-03-2009, 08:37 AM
Further, when we grow plants that are not native to the ecology of our local environment it is rarely environmentally friendly -- no matter what the source of nutrients and amendments we use.
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean. Most fruit trees grown here in the United States, did not originate here. If a type of tree cannot be grown in a certain area, they are kept in potts. How is this hurting the environment?
Richard
07-03-2009, 09:26 AM
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean. Most fruit trees grown here in the United States, did not originate here. If a type of tree cannot be grown in a certain area, they are kept in potts. How is this hurting the environment?
Most fruit trees grown in the U.S. did not originate here and are not grown in pots. Even when they are, the runoff has a local effect.
Further, look at the ornamental plants plants in your yard. They have significantly perturbed the local ecology.
In general, when you increase the amount of water applied to an area of ground, or enhance the nutrients available to plants in the soil it is usually not "friendly" to the local ecology -- regardless of the source of the water or nutrients.
supermario
07-03-2009, 10:11 AM
Most fruit trees grown in the U.S. did not originate here and are not grown in pots. Even when they are, the runoff has a local effect.
Further, look at the ornamental plants plants in your yard. They have significantly perturbed the local ecology.
In general, when you increase the amount of water applied to an area of ground, or enhance the nutrients available to plants in the soil it is usually not "friendly" to the local ecology -- regardless of the source of the water or nutrients.
I still don't understand your point. It seems as though you are suggesting that we shouldn't water or feed our plants. Also, that we should not buy plants that are not native to our area. So, no bananas, mangos, citrus, avocados, etc etc. Is that what you are trying to say?
As for runoff from watering potted plants...that can be solved by placing a collection tray* under it. * don't know if that's the right name for it
Furthermore, please describe the negative effect you are referring too. I have all types of birds and insects that feed off fallen fruit. What is not eaten, decomposes into the soil. What is being hurt by this?
There have been specific cases where our ignorance of plant growth habits have hurt the local ecology. The same can be said of certain animals and insects brought in to control a specific problem only to cause more problems.
One example I can give is the Florida Citrus Quarantine. Citrus greening is threatening our industry, but California does not have this problem. So, Citrus may not be shipped in or out of Florida as of right now. If it were, the problem would likely spread. I think this example shows that we are a bit more educated on the subject and can feel safe growing any plant we wish.
conejov
07-03-2009, 10:31 AM
I think he means we are literally changing the local ecology by bring in a different species and non native soil, and or nutrients that weren't there before.
How ever we have been doing that for years with Agriculture. and even now with Genetically Modified Food.
Richard
07-03-2009, 10:43 AM
I still don't understand your point.
Not long ago in a place known as your yard, nature took its course and a many species of life came and went. When humans arrived on the scene, the local ecology was changed dramatically. Perhaps it changed for the better of humans and some species, but it can hardly be called "earth friendly".
In my own yard, I have been very unfriendly towards the native environment. The increased water distribution to the soil has caused the proliferation of imported wildflowers which have crowded out and all but eliminated the local grasses. I have waged war with iron phosphate against the dominant animal -- slugs. The increased plant nutrients I have introduced to the soil have caused the imported plant varieties to flourish and I have systematically removed all but a few of the native Sumac shrubs. There is definitely an abundance of wildlife that now visits my property -- birds, pollinators, etc. but my actions have been very unfriendly towards the original local ecology.
supermario
07-03-2009, 02:25 PM
Not long ago in a place known as your yard, nature took its course and a many species of life came and went. When humans arrived on the scene, the local ecology was changed dramatically. Perhaps it changed for the better of humans and some species, but it can hardly be called "earth friendly".
In my own yard, I have been very unfriendly towards the native environment. The increased water distribution to the soil has caused the proliferation of imported wildflowers which have crowded out and all but eliminated the local grasses. I have waged war with iron phosphate against the dominant animal -- slugs. The increased plant nutrients I have introduced to the soil have caused the imported plant varieties to flourish and I have systematically removed all but a few of the native Sumac shrubs. There is definitely an abundance of wildlife that now visits my property -- birds, pollinators, etc. but my actions have been very unfriendly towards the original local ecology.
Well stated and I agree with both of you. It just came across as if growing your favorite fruits is wrong. When you say we are hurting the environment, what comes to mind is illegal logging and poachers, but you are correct in saying that we all as individuals have changed our local ecology.
In genereal, I think us humans can be compared to parasites in the way we spread and completely disregard our "host". While some of us consume within our means, most of us overdo it.. Especially in this country, where we have the highest obesity rate. We need to produce bigger and more abundant crops in order to meet demand. Ergo, the hormone filled animals that we consume every day.
This is off the subject, but I can't help but remember that just a few days ago, I saw a 500lb man driving around in a scooter through a hotel. He had no problem walking around the poker room to see who was left, but wouldn't walk to the bathroom. He doesn't realize, much less care,that there are handicapped persons that genuinely need that transportation. It's a good example of some peoples general disregard for others and nature.
Again, doesn't directly relate to the "organic fertilizer" subject at all, but I feel it's relevant to the topic of us hurting our environment.
conejov
07-03-2009, 05:18 PM
I think the only way to not have dretamental impact on the enviroment in the big picture for fertilizer, we should all just make our compost. Is that not what your trying to say richard?
ewitte
07-03-2009, 07:02 PM
This is off the subject, but I can't help but remember that just a few days ago, I saw a 500lb man driving around in a scooter through a hotel. He had no problem walking around the poker room to see who was left, but wouldn't walk to the bathroom. He doesn't realize, much less care,that there are handicapped persons that genuinely need that transportation. It's a good example of some peoples general disregard for others and nature.
A good 80-90% of the people here with handicap stickers are overweight. Most of them have no other physical problems and actually NEED the extra excersize. They should give those people some marking on the vehicle that makes them park in the back provided its not raining or extremely hot.
Richard
07-03-2009, 07:14 PM
I think the only way to not have dretamental impact on the enviroment in the big picture for fertilizer, we should all just make our compost. Is that not what your trying to say richard?
Nope. I'm saying that cultivating the earth is not an "earth friendly" practice. All the talk about "organic" being earth friendly is bogus. Let's be honest. We are doing it for our own benefit. Of course, there are some practices that are more responsible than others. Ultimately, it is how something is applied that really matters.
supermario
07-04-2009, 12:13 AM
:lurk:
conejov
07-04-2009, 02:25 PM
Nope. I'm saying that cultivating the earth is not an "earth friendly" practice. All the talk about "organic" being earth friendly is bogus. Let's be honest. We are doing it for our own benefit. Of course, there are some practices that are more responsible than others. Ultimately, it is how something is applied that really matters.
I think I understand what your saying, So wouldnt Making compost and worm castings be "earth friendly" if you make it on your own.
And yeah we are doing it for our selves. I want to make sure that I am not consuming synthetic chemicals in my edibles.
So what I was looking for Originally was non synthetic, natural fertilizers (worm castings, compost, blood meal.. and so on, things that are not to the my environment, pets and family.
I might be rambling now, but thank you for setting it straight for me Richard.
Richard
07-04-2009, 04:40 PM
I think I understand what your saying, So wouldnt Making compost and worm castings be "earth friendly" if you make it on your own.
No. The earth-friendly thing to do is revert your property to the state it was in before any humans settled there. It is hypocritical to think of gardening as "earth friendly". Gardening is human-friendly at best.
turtile
07-04-2009, 04:47 PM
I think I understand what your saying, So wouldnt Making compost and worm castings be "earth friendly" if you make it on your own.
And yeah we are doing it for our selves. I want to make sure that I am not consuming synthetic chemicals in my edibles.
So what I was looking for Originally was non synthetic, natural fertilizers (worm castings, compost, blood meal.. and so on, things that are not to the my environment, pets and family.
I might be rambling now, but thank you for setting it straight for me Richard.
Making your own compost can be good and bad. Throwing leaves, pulled weeds, dead plants, lawn cuttings etc. in the garbage is a waste. Placing the material back to where it originated keeps replenishing nutrients.
If you stack a ton of this material in small space where water can drain through, it can potentially pollute the groundwater and nearby water ways with nutrients.
As for synthetic fertilizers, there is nothing different from synthetic nutrients and nutrients from organic sources. Anything we do will affect the environment. The fact is, you are changing the environment when you add any fertilizer regardless of the source. Improving the efficiency of our production is the best thing we can do.
ewitte
07-04-2009, 07:46 PM
Earth friendly doesn't have to be the state it was in before you got there. There is a big difference between tropical landscaping and a toxic waste dump. IMO when you start getting tons of wildlife moving in its pretty "earth friendly".
banfan
07-04-2009, 09:44 PM
Just my two cents, but I believe that the long term view of improving the efficiency of our production means that we practice natural, poison-free growing. The answer is using natural mulch, not feeding the soil salt and other chemical ingredients in fertilizers that are not organic, and not using any pesticides. Many non-organic ingredients kill earthworms and other beneficial soil life, and prevent the plant from growing naturally at its best; hence, I use only organic fertilizer and as a result have an abundance of beneficial activity in my soil. By mulching and improving the soil, we can grow better plants that are better able to resist attacks and produce much better fruit. I also know that I will not be ingesting deadly chemicals to the extent that others who choose to eat non-organically produced produce will, and as a bonus, the flavor of the organic produce is much better every time. Case in point is my local competitor who sells his nice looking, chemically treated produce for less than I do. At the end of a typical day he has to dump rotting produce whereas I have nearly sold out my inventory of organic, tasty, not so perfect looking produce to repeat customers.
Richard
07-04-2009, 09:45 PM
If you want to do something "earth friendly", then get involved with habitat restoration at a national or state park / preserve.
If you want to garden, go right ahead! But stop buying into the marketing hype that there are earth-friendly approaches. You might provide food for some local and many imported wild species, but in the process slay 100's more native species (e.g., beetles) and introduce unusual nutrients into the waterways.
Take heed of Winston Churchill's observation: Man shapes buildings and then buildings shape man.
supermario
07-05-2009, 01:24 AM
I understand your comments Richard and agree with you. No matter what we do, as long as we are doing things to please ourselves, that is who we are benefiting...ourselves. Not that it makes us terrible people..we just have to do things in moderation and with respect for our surroundings.
Organic...non-organic...just different results if you ask me. I've heard that some scientific studies suggest that using organic fertilizers is better because the ground will naturally sustain the trees in the long run. The studies do not, however, suggest that we are ingesting what we feed the trees. That is like saying we are eating cow manure because we till it into the soil.
I personally use compost for my veggies and man made fertilizers for my fruit trees. Why? It's simple. It's cheap for me to make a small amount of compost to feed my veggies. It is not cheap for me to make 100's of lbs of compost to feed my 18 fruit trees. Each tree is a different size, so some need more/less fertilizer more/less often. It's a matter of economics for me.
I can tell you right now. The peppers in my yard taste no different than the ones sold at the grocery store.My peppers are generally not as large and uniform as the ones at the grocery, but again, the flavor is identical. I think that If there is any difference in taste, it is in the mind of the taster. One feels a great sense of achievement producing their own produce, so that attributes to the "tastes better" phenomenon.
As for my fruits, they are better than the ones at the grocer.. not because of what I feed them, but because I am lucky enough to have varieties that aren't available on a commercial scale... much like the heirloom tomatoes I grow. :nanadrink:
Richard
07-05-2009, 05:22 AM
Mario,
Those are pretty much my sentiments. I would caution you about the word "organic":
I've heard that some scientific studies suggest that using organic fertilizers is better because the ground will naturally sustain the trees in the long run.
"Organic" has no legally binding meaning and thus any scientific study would be more specific about what kind of organic they are talking about. In particular, "certified organic" has to do with the effects on the local environment and does not prohibit synthetic fertilizers -- unless of course they have an adverse effect. It is a common misconception that "certified organic" means "non-synthetic". Potassium Citrate is an example of a compound made by ionic chemistry which is perfectly acceptable for USDA "certified organic" growing.
Another bizarre misconception (perpetrated by seed sellers) is the meaning of "heirloom". This word does have a legally binding meaning. Any seeds sold as heirloom must be (1) off-patent, and (2) reproduce true to form. So as it turns out, nearly all tomato seeds sold on the market today meet the definition of heirloom, including most of A. Burpee's hybrids and several GMO strains from universities as well.
turtile
07-05-2009, 06:03 PM
Just my two cents, but I believe that the long term view of improving the efficiency of our production means that we practice natural, poison-free growing. The answer is using natural mulch, not feeding the soil salt and other chemical ingredients in fertilizers that are not organic, and not using any pesticides. Many non-organic ingredients kill earthworms and other beneficial soil life, and prevent the plant from growing naturally at its best; hence, I use only organic fertilizer and as a result have an abundance of beneficial activity in my soil. By mulching and improving the soil, we can grow better plants that are better able to resist attacks and produce much better fruit. I also know that I will not be ingesting deadly chemicals to the extent that others who choose to eat non-organically produced produce will, and as a bonus, the flavor of the organic produce is much better every time. Case in point is my local competitor who sells his nice looking, chemically treated produce for less than I do. At the end of a typical day he has to dump rotting produce whereas I have nearly sold out my inventory of organic, tasty, not so perfect looking produce to repeat customers.
Applying only organic material to soil would be a disaster for the environment. Since plants will be limited by one nutrient, enormous amounts of organic material may be needed to meet the demands of one nutrient while applying excessive amounts of other nutrients. You must also ask yourself, where are we going to get all of this organic material from? Destroy all life on earth? Shipping highly concentrated fertilizer is much more efficient.
A mix of both organic and non-organic fertilizers provides for the best crop production. Ammonium, nitrate, copper, magnesium etc. are the same no matter where they came from. The same amount of nutrients will be needed in each case. Pure organic material will need at least 20x the amount in weight, mess up the pH, lock up copper, and of course is not available.
Pesticides are good and bad. When properly managed, they greatly improve the production of crops while having a minimal effect on the environment. Most chemical companies are working on genetically modifying crops in order to give plants resistance to pests instead of spending a countless time breeding plants (and changing not one gene but countless others) to acquire disease resistance.
Mario,
It is a common misconception that "certified organic" means "non-synthetic".
Exactly, the fertilizer used on certified organic is almost always the same as anything else you may find at the store. Most people don't realize that our crop production is only at the current level due to synthetic processes such as Haber-Bosch (N).
Richard
07-05-2009, 09:09 PM
the fertilizer used on certified organic is almost always the same as anything else you may find at the store.
This was true in many states -- especially the east coast, until earlier this year with the passing of the omnibus agriculture bill. Previously, states could choose to adopt standards for "certified organic" but most did not. Now all states are subject to enforcing the new Federal standard which is very close to the definition we had here in the state of California.
Both the old California standard and the new Federal standard are based on the definition that "certified organic farming" involves methods that "do not significantly impact the local environment". Note that this definition says nothing about whether the materials are synthetic or not.
The new Federal standard is implemented by a formulary list. To be "certified organic", you must only use methods and materials that are on the approved list. It turns out that many natural and synthetic forms of nitrogen can and do have a significant local effect. A "certified organic" farmer has few choices for nitrogen sources. Otherwise, Turtile (http://www.bananas.org/member-turtile.html) is right on the money. For example, nutrients extracted from mineral salts by ionic chemistry and then suspended in human-made citric acid are permitted. Several synthetic pesticides are permitted as well, for example: synthetic pyrethrins.
Personally I have no objections to the Federal standard except for the limitation on nitrogen sources. I could understand limiting the amount that is applied but perhaps that is difficult to implement. Basically, blood meal with a 12% nitrogen content is no different in impact of total nitrogen than a nitrate compound extracted from minerals in 12% concentration (of total nitrogen). Chemically, they are identical. In fact, the blood meal contains some worrisome secondary compounds whereas the nitrogen salt has none.
Note: growers should not confuse the prior California State standards with the private "organic" standards organization CCOF (http://www.ccof.org/).
OrganicBananac
08-10-2009, 03:45 PM
Applying only organic material to soil would be a disaster for the environment. Since plants will be limited by one nutrient, enormous amounts of organic material may be needed to meet the demands of one nutrient while applying excessive amounts of other nutrients. You must also ask yourself, where are we going to get all of this organic material from? Destroy all life on earth? Shipping highly concentrated fertilizer is much more efficient.
A mix of both organic and non-organic fertilizers provides for the best crop production. Ammonium, nitrate, copper, magnesium etc. are the same no matter where they came from. The same amount of nutrients will be needed in each case. Pure organic material will need at least 20x the amount in weight, mess up the pH, lock up copper, and of course is not available.
Pesticides are good and bad. When properly managed, they greatly improve the production of crops while having a minimal effect on the environment. Most chemical companies are working on genetically modifying crops in order to give plants resistance to pests instead of spending a countless time breeding plants (and changing not one gene but countless others) to acquire disease resistance.
Exactly, the fertilizer used on certified organic is almost always the same as anything else you may find at the store. Most people don't realize that our crop production is only at the current level due to synthetic processes such as Haber-Bosch (N).
I strongly suggest to you some reading at Soil Foodweb, Inc. (http://www.soilfoodweb.com)
or the book "Teaming With Microbes" by Jeff Lowenfels.
I can not begin to address the misunderstandings in what you posted.
Applying only organic material to soil would be a disaster for the environment. Since plants will be limited by one nutrient, enormous amounts of organic material may be needed to meet the demands of one nutrient while applying excessive amounts of other nutrients. You must also ask yourself, where are we going to get all of this organic material from? Destroy all life on earth? Shipping highly concentrated fertilizer is much more efficient.
A mix of both organic and non-organic fertilizers provides for the best crop production. Ammonium, nitrate, copper, magnesium etc. are the same no matter where they came from. The same amount of nutrients will be needed in each case. Pure organic material will need at least 20x the amount in weight, mess up the pH, lock up copper, and of course is not available.
Pesticides are good and bad. When properly managed, they greatly improve the production of crops while having a minimal effect on the environment. Most chemical companies are working on genetically modifying crops in order to give plants resistance to pests instead of spending a countless time breeding plants (and changing not one gene but countless others) to acquire disease resistance.
Exactly, the fertilizer used on certified organic is almost always the same as anything else you may find at the store. Most people don't realize that our crop production is only at the current level due to synthetic processes such as Haber-Bosch (N).
I agree whole heartily--the best is a mix of organic and non-organic fertilizers. Organic materials greatly improve soil conditions, but it would be impossible to maintain food production necessary to feed our population with organic only methods. Sewage is far more toxic than "chemical" fertilizers with heavy metals, hormones, and all kinds of toxins, even animal waste is often loaded with hormones, anti-biotics, and salts. I love my compost pile--it makes my garden soil much more productive, but without additional N my garden would be far less productive--what is wrong with N fertilizer that is made from air with a little natural gas and electricity?
As for pesticides, nature makes chemicals that are far more toxic than anything that man has ever made--botulin, afflatoxin, ricin just to name a few. The worst things that man made were persistient pesticide--but most modern pesticides are far less persistient than DDT. There are many good pesticides with low toxicity and short half-lives both man made and natural.
turtile
08-10-2009, 06:33 PM
I strongly suggest to you some reading at Soil Foodweb, Inc. (http://www.soilfoodweb.com)
or the book "Teaming With Microbes" by Jeff Lowenfels.
I can not begin to address the misunderstandings in what you posted.
Please explain what any of that has to do with what I wrote and how it contradicts what I said.
Point out one thing that I've misunderstood.
OrganicBananac
08-10-2009, 09:53 PM
Ok..?
I pick...."Applying only organic material to soil would be a disaster for the environment."
Yea, that one.
turtile
08-10-2009, 10:43 PM
Ok..?
I pick...."Applying only organic material to soil would be a disaster for the environment."
Yea, that one.
Where are you going to get all of this organic material from? How are you going to provide the right amount of elements without applying 10x the amount of some other nutrient causing harm to the environment? Why would you ship around something that weighs around 20x the amount? How would you correct the pH?
permaculturekidd
08-11-2009, 12:11 AM
What ever happened to just watering it every so often; to throwing a carp or a fish head under some roots or focusing more intensively over a smaller area then spreading yourself thin?
I say this constantly; learn to grow different food! Get plants that are completely self-reliant like tree crops, perennial vegetables, and fruit shrubs. Things that with enough intercropping and time will completely grow up fruitfully and healthy.
I live in old orchard country; acres of old abandoned trees fruiting every year produce bountiful harvests ('cept the crazy branch growth caused by pruning is a problem getting them). Brambles of black berries taking over the creeks in the spring, summer, and fall; Oak trees decades old producing more and more as time goes by; doing just fine without people.
Why not tap into those resources ?
Won't it leave meadows for grains and grazing; maybe grow a few bananas for personal or occasional market use but not a plantation. Get acid loving, drought tolerant/resistant, self fertilizing, native, and/or frost tolerant resistant plants which will feed generations with limited input and great output.
Three sisters in the hot dry infertile Arizona desert has does just fine for centuries; no need for compost, fish meal, or seaweed emulsion. Good ole' nitrogen fixing beans and an active amount of microbes and fungi working with the roots and soil to create some of the best produce ever (or so I've heard from a good friend who lived in the Southwest for some time)
Lagniappe
08-11-2009, 12:17 AM
I'm seeing 'real growth' in my bananas now that I've ignored them for three years. It seems that they all want to bloom too.
Richard
08-11-2009, 12:56 AM
Get acid loving, drought tolerant/resistant, self fertilizing, native, and/or frost tolerant resistant plants which will feed generations with limited input and great output.
In my locality, acid-loving plants left to the elements will perish and the native plants are fruitless, in fact somewhat toxic to mammals. However, on my half-acre I grow a few hundred varieties of edible plants for myself and hundreds more in containers for my nursery business. I use less water per month than the each of my neighbors and utilize responsible water-soluble fertilizers to boost production for my family use. The county department of Agriculture was here today on a quarterly inspection and have decided my property is a wildlife refuge.
"Organic" is a religion. If you want to talk about responsible gardening you'll need to be more specific with your terminology: http://www.plantsthatproduce.com/column/PTP_2008_09_Organic.htm
permaculturekidd
08-11-2009, 01:47 AM
In my locality, acid-loving plants left to the elements will perish and the native plants are fruitless, in fact somewhat toxic to mammals. However, on my half-acre I grow a few hundred varieties of edible plants for myself and hundreds more in containers for my nursery business. I use less water per month than the each of my neighbors and utilize responsible water-soluble fertilizers to boost production for my family use. The county department of Agriculture was here today on a quarterly inspection and have decided my property is a wildlife refuge.
"Organic" is a religion. If you want to talk about responsible gardening you'll need to be more specific with your terminology: http://www.plantsthatproduce.com/column/PTP_2008_09_Organic.htm
The acid-loving part was just something to say instead of buying mineral powders to the soil which in some cases is needed. But Oak, Pine, blackberry many tropicals, etc... love acidic or slightly acidic soils.
I am abit more localized in my growing beliefs since I do not want to fertilize with anything farther than 50 miles away. Though for me is relatively easy I have rivers, marshes, lakes, oceans, forests, pasture and savanna to comb for fertilizer if need be.
So I wouldn't be focusing my mineral need on one place and with alittle management thousands of people could get the fertilizers needed outside of intercropping and simply throwing plant waste in piles around or near what ever plant your growing.
I personally don't like Organic; to broad even those other types of organic seem to broad. I just believe in using the growing materials around you to utilize.
Richard
08-11-2009, 10:36 AM
Lee, you are fortunate that your environment supports the plants you mentioned. They would perish here without amendments and constant attention to pH.
I am also localized in my approach ... the Grow More (http://www.growmore.com/pages/productservices.html) factory is within an hour drive from here :D
OrganicBananac
08-11-2009, 01:25 PM
Every answer to these questions can be found by taking the advice that was already given... im just saying. Read up.
Key topics- microbes, soil food web, nutrient cycling...
Richard
08-11-2009, 02:03 PM
Every answer to these questions can be found by taking the advice that was already given... im just saying. Read up.
Key topics- microbes, soil food web, nutrient cycling...
Matt, there are no perpetual motion machines. Instead there is conservation of matter, conservation of energy, and entropy. You appear to be a victim of lifestyle marketing.
OrganicBananac
08-11-2009, 03:29 PM
Ah, personal attacks.
That ALL you got?:waving:
supermario
08-11-2009, 04:57 PM
You appear to be a victim of lifestyle marketing.
LOL never heard that one before... makes perfect sense though.
OrganicBananac
08-11-2009, 05:33 PM
:)
banfan
08-11-2009, 10:05 PM
There have been many interesting posts on this topic. The more I read about chemical fertilizers, the more I realize how the chemical companies have contributed to the world's health problems and soil destruction. There is no way that one can make a legitimate argument for using chemical fertilizers...they are not needed and never existed until the chemical companies had to dump their destructive ammo making chemicals on the unsuspecting public as plant food. What a perfect scam! Plants don't need food from bags or bins. The nutrients that plants need are produced by microbial life that is present in well cared for soil. Now that the land has been raped and fed these chemicals by big ag so that they can produce food and fuel for the masses, all sits well for the uninformed. Folks, please wake up to the fact that this practice is all deadly wrong and destructive to the good soil life.....each handful of chemical salt destroys the nutrient producing life in the soil. Today there are still farmers in the world who farm the old fashioned organic way and they out produce big ag and live healthier, longer lives as do the consumers of their produce. What more proof do you need? Stop believing that the current chemical application status quo is a beneficial method just because it's all you know or you depend on it for your livelihood.....it never was and never could be beneficial. Go natural and live the difference, if not for your sake, for your grandchildren's sake and the sake of the earth. When you convert, there will be a time lag while your soil recovers and your pocketbook will be hurt; however, in the long run everyone will benefit. Isn't that what this life is all about?
Richard
08-11-2009, 10:46 PM
Ah, personal attacks.
That ALL you got?:waving:
Nope. I am talking about your opinion which is comprised of over-generalizations. It would be great to get down to specifics instead of sweeping everything under the rugs of "chemical fertilizers" and "the soil food web".
turtile
08-11-2009, 11:08 PM
Every answer to these questions can be found by taking the advice that was already given... im just saying. Read up.
Key topics- microbes, soil food web, nutrient cycling...
My reading material doesn't consist of advertisements.
OrganicBananac
08-12-2009, 11:42 PM
Educational material should not consist of ignorant comments either. Thanks for doing your part.
OrganicBananac
08-13-2009, 12:14 AM
Specifics are salts kill microbes, so do pesticides, herbicides and fungicides...
Patty in Wisc
08-13-2009, 12:38 AM
Holy cow! All this talk about chemicals and ...... I'm getting lost here! Someone mentioned how bad it is for us to eat our veggies grown with chemical ferts. What about the boxed dinners alot of you buy? I use miracle grow & banana fuel ferts which you may say is bad, but I also make my own macaroni & cheese, tomato sauce, jellies, pasta & much more, from scratch. Do you know how many chemicals & preservitives they use in them? I have my compost bin & dump in the garden, but I also use the water soluble ferts - good & bad.
They feed & inject chemicals into chickens, turkeys, cows etc, to make them bigger, & we EAT them. But, I'd rather buy that & make my own home made soups than buy a can of Campbells soup. Ooooh, and the SODIUM & preservatives in it!
I guess we just can't win in this chemical world :(
I might just go smoke a joint now -- chemical free LOL.
Sorry for my ignorance here on this subject of 'organic'---just my 2 cents worth :)
I'm really allergic to pot :)
Richard
08-13-2009, 02:11 AM
Specifics are salts kill microbes, so do pesticides, herbicides and fungicides...
You are over-generalizing. There are many salts that do not kill microbes, among them several thousand that are used in water-soluble fertilizers. Pesticide is a legal term in every state, meaning any substance labeled to kill a pest. Borax is an example of a pesticide which applied to the surface in moderate dosages kills ants but has no effect on microbes. And so on. For more information on attributes of chemicals on microbes and the environment, please see PAN Pesticide Database (http://www.pesticideinfo.org)
Richard
08-13-2009, 03:59 PM
All of the fertilizer samples in the image below contain chemicals: some non-synthetic, some synthetic.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=21153&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=21153)
From the left:
Granular "Triple-15". In the fertilizer industry, granular refers to a nutrient that is cast on the ground, typically where the irrigation water will hit it. In this particular case, several university studies have demonstrated that soil biology is adversely affected when triple-15 (and some similar products) are applied directly to bare soil. However, when applied to a thick layer of mulch the results range from negative to positive depending upon (a) the underlying soil, (b) the nature of the mulch, and (c) the leaf-fall from surrounding plants.
Pelletized "Pure-N-Natural". pelletized means that a combination of materials were pressed or baked into a solid, then crushed or pelletized, and sometimes coated (e.g., osmocote). These again are intended to be applied directly to the soil. This particular product contains nutrient chemicals -- both major and minor, non-nutrient chemicals -- e.g., humic acids, plus mycorrhizae and beneficial bacteria all coexisting in the same compound. It is one of several excellent soil conditioners and inoculants on the market. Note that once you inoculate your soil -- you need not do it again for many years if ever ... especially if the soil is maintained with a top layer of mulch. Five to seven years ago I inoculated my orchard soils with this product and since then annual soil tests have shown that no further biotics need be added.
Water Soluble 20-5-5. water soluble means that the product was designed to be dissolved in water before applying to plants. If you were to apply them directly to the ground, a large percentage of the nutrients would simply escape to the atmosphere. Most agricultural water solubles (including this one) are beneficial to organisms in the soil -- in fact the water solubles often count on microbes to process some of the minerals into a form useful by plants.
Neem Seed Meal. A meal is a ground or shredded plant material. In this case, Neem Seed Meal is comprised of seed casings and fibers left over after Neem Seed Oil is pressed from the seeds. The meal is high in nitrogen for a plant material (~ 5-1-1) and has been used in south Asia for centuries. It is not a significant insecticide but the strong odor will drive away some varieties of insects, bugs, and most teenagers.
OrganicBananac
08-13-2009, 05:27 PM
I think you over-generalized Richard.
This thread is titled "Organic" fertilizer.
Please discuss the topic (ORGANIC) or move on to another thread.
gadget
08-13-2009, 08:11 PM
This is my over generalized opinion.
Salts kill microbes makes no sense to me.
I think if an area is hit hard with fert or salt, sure it will kill what it touches. But with this death, does this not make food for other things and make it a spot for growth of more microbes. I think with proper application there is no way to hurt the microbe community to a point of collapse. I am with you on everything else just not the fert. I chose not to use any pesticides or herbicides at my house. I have a good population of birds, lizards, bugs, worms, and microbes in my yard. I just do not see the ill effects in using synthetic fertilizer. My soil and tap water are salty; I bet the microbes in my soil are probably salt lovers to begin with.
I also am using all my urine in my yard because of this thread. Free fertilizer and saves water
some good reading
Alternative Soil Amendments (Summary) (http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/summaries/altsoilamend.html)
turtile
08-13-2009, 09:04 PM
Educational material should not consist of ignorant comments either. Thanks for doing your part.
Where are my ignorant comments?
I posted the reasons why purely organic material would be a disaster for the environment. Read here (http://www.bananas.org/f312/organic-fertillizer-7785-4.html#post83110)
You replied by saying that I'm wrong and you have yet to show any factual evidence. You provided links that have nothing to do with commercial agriculture or using purely organic material.
You further stated that I need to "read up" however I've already studied soil science. If you would like comments that are on topic, you can start by providing a counter point instead of posting random links and attacks.
conejov
08-13-2009, 09:30 PM
This thread is getting out of hand. Everyone just agree to disagree. Mods please feel free to close this.
supermario
08-13-2009, 09:33 PM
:lurk:
Richard
08-13-2009, 11:14 PM
Please discuss the topic (ORGANIC) or move on to another thread.
Three out of the four listed (here (http://www.bananas.org/f312/organic-fertillizer-7785.html#post90984)) are organic, and two of those meet the ultra-stringent requirements of CCOF (www.ccof.org).
supermario
08-14-2009, 07:45 AM
Three out of the four listed (here (http://www.bananas.org/f312/organic-fertillizer-7785.html#post90984)) are organic, and two of those meet the ultra-stringent requirements of CCOF (www.ccof.org).
You shouldn't have wasted your time Richard. It's obvious that you are educated on the subject and this guy is in his own world.
Organicbananac.. any point you were trying to make was lost waaaay back when you made a comment about SUV's. Your rants come across as nothing more than hippy logic. On top of that, your poor attempts at witt make you come across as a jerk. You cannot force your beliefs on others. Don't get me wrong though... it has provided me with a good laugh from time to time.. so, feel free to give me your worst.
:0517:
Heated debates are the best ones, but don't resort to insults and sarcastic remarks just because others don't agree with you. You even refused to introduce yourself in the introduction section.. why? Do you also show up to local gatherings with a mask on??
djmb74
08-14-2009, 08:14 PM
I grow because its fun and I have 6 kids that love to eat! The only thing I am doing for the earth is having the kids pick up waste from the neighbors for my compost pile to keep it out of landfills! hehe Oh ya and half of my 5 acres is totally left untouched...
Back on topic...
For those of you that do not want to pee in a cup. We collect hair from when we get our haircuts and put it in the compost. Adds tons of nitrogen! I have a friend that owns a salon and every once in a while I get a bag of hair to add to the pile!
OrganicBananac
08-15-2009, 01:24 AM
For all with fear of going to websites, Soil Food Web Inc. is the authority in testing microbiology in soil. They have a nice safe website loaded with information, they ARE a lab. Studying many of their methods have led me to the information i know, AND continue to learn. I can understand when some people don't understand simple facts are, simple. But that is sometimes the beauty of working with nature, it is easier and continues to reward the worker by only becoming better and better. The reason why many people do not understand this type of soil comprehension, is also because it is relatively new. It was not until the 1990's that scientists even understood what mychorrizal fungi even did. They knew it was there, but not what the purpose was. Myc. fungi are just one of the pieces that fit in to the whole cycle of life, known as the "soil food web". Do some reading, learning, and thinking and find out why there is such an importance with AACT,fungi,bacteria,nematodes,protozoa,worms and all other aspects of nature that we can and cannot see. It is this biology that is doing the work.
Ripped from Wiki direct: Osmosis
"Suppose an animal or a plant cell is placed in a solution of sugar or salt in water.
If the medium is hypotonic a dilute solution, with a higher water concentration than the cell the cell will gain water through osmosis.
If the medium is isotonic a solution with exactly the same water concentration as the cell there will be no net movement of water across the cell membrane.
If the medium is hypertonic a concentrated solution, with a lower water concentration than the cell the cell will lose water by osmosis.
Essentially, this means that if a cell is put in a solution which is has a solute concentration higher than its own, then it will shrivel up, and if it is put in a solution with a lesser solute concentration than its own, the cell will expand and burst."
Now on the scale of microbes, chloramine is added in water as a disinfectant chemical, but when brewing an aerated compost tea, this chemical is very bad for the brew. You are killing the life you are attempting to brew. Shooting yourself in your foot, literally. The same goes for nutrient salts, as stated on the wiki quote above because remember the aspect of exactly what those salts are, concentrated. And,
"If the medium is hypertonic a concentrated solution, with a lower water concentration than the cell the cell will lose water by osmosis."
Now moisture in soil has an effect on concentration of salts as well. Think of an evaporating cup of salt water.
One step forward, two backwards is not a good "system".
The bottom line in the distinction of organic & inorganic is really, are you doing the work (manually feeding and dosing) or are you allowing the microbiology to do the work for you (using added materials to give what the plants need, when the plants need it). The biology does this work for you. Let me remind everyone biology is as small as bacteria to as large as birds and other critters. Everything has its part, whether we like it or not, and our part as gardeners is to tend, not micromanage. There are no bailouts or golden bananas.
For Richards picture.
1. NOPE
2. I tend to enjoy not paying for someone's repackaging of ingredients, suspect till viewing of ingredient list, then may be proven not guilty.
3. NOPE neon organic,eh?
4. Good stuff, but again there are better less costly alternatives.
Next time we talk about INERT ingredients. ;) (Legally, you have the right, to not know!!)
Richard
08-15-2009, 09:47 AM
For Richards picture.
1. NOPE
2. I tend to enjoy not paying for someone's repackaging of ingredients, suspect till viewing of ingredient list, then may be proven not guilty.
3. NOPE neon organic,eh?
4. Good stuff, but again there are better less costly alternatives.
My picture (http://www.bananas.org/f312/organic-fertillizer-7785.html#post90984) was to point that (a) there are chemicals in every fertilizer and (b) it is incorrect that "chemicals kill microbial life".
As for OrganicBananac (http://www.bananas.org/member-organicbananac.html)'s analysis of the picture:
Inorganic and a poor choice for my soils.
100% organic -- you can view the ingredients online with a little effort
100% organic -- depending on your definition (http://www.plantsthatproduce.com/column/PTP_2008_09_Organic.htm)
100% organic -- the cost to consumers varies a lot depending upon location and supplier.
For calculating the true cost of fertilizers, please see this thread: http://www.bananas.org/f312/economics-fertilizer-numbers-9122.html
... The same goes for nutrient salts, as stated on the wiki quote above because remember the aspect of exactly what those salts are, concentrated. And, "If the medium is hypertonic a concentrated solution, with a lower water concentration than the cell the cell will lose water by osmosis."
Nutrient salts such as #3 are never applied in concentrated solution. Dosages range from 100ppm to 1000ppm. At this rate, the nutrients are beneficial to both the plant and soil life.
supermario
08-15-2009, 10:01 AM
For all with fear of going to websites, Soil Food Web Inc. is the authority in testing microbiology in soil. They have a nice safe website loaded with information, they ARE a lab. Studying many of their methods have led me to the information i know, AND continue to learn. I can understand when some people don't understand simple facts are, simple. But that is sometimes the beauty of working with nature, it is easier and continues to reward the worker by only becoming better and better. The reason why many people do not understand this type of soil comprehension, is also because it is relatively new. It was not until the 1990's that scientists even understood what mychorrizal fungi even did. They knew it was there, but not what the purpose was. Myc. fungi are just one of the pieces that fit in to the whole cycle of life, known as the "soil food web". Do some reading, learning, and thinking and find out why there is such an importance with AACT,fungi,bacteria,nematodes,protozoa,worms and all other aspects of nature that we can and cannot see. It is this biology that is doing the work.
Ripped from Wiki direct: Osmosis
"Suppose an animal or a plant cell is placed in a solution of sugar or salt in water.
If the medium is hypotonic a dilute solution, with a higher water concentration than the cell the cell will gain water through osmosis.
If the medium is isotonic a solution with exactly the same water concentration as the cell there will be no net movement of water across the cell membrane.
If the medium is hypertonic a concentrated solution, with a lower water concentration than the cell the cell will lose water by osmosis.
Essentially, this means that if a cell is put in a solution which is has a solute concentration higher than its own, then it will shrivel up, and if it is put in a solution with a lesser solute concentration than its own, the cell will expand and burst."
Now on the scale of microbes, chloramine is added in water as a disinfectant chemical, but when brewing an aerated compost tea, this chemical is very bad for the brew. You are killing the life you are attempting to brew. Shooting yourself in your foot, literally. The same goes for nutrient salts, as stated on the wiki quote above because remember the aspect of exactly what those salts are, concentrated. And,
"If the medium is hypertonic a concentrated solution, with a lower water concentration than the cell the cell will lose water by osmosis."
Now moisture in soil has an effect on concentration of salts as well. Think of an evaporating cup of salt water.
One step forward, two backwards is not a good "system".
The bottom line in the distinction of organic & inorganic is really, are you doing the work (manually feeding and dosing) or are you allowing the microbiology to do the work for you (using added materials to give what the plants need, when the plants need it). The biology does this work for you. Let me remind everyone biology is as small as bacteria to as large as birds and other critters. Everything has its part, whether we like it or not, and our part as gardeners is to tend, not micromanage. There are no bailouts or golden bananas.
For Richards picture.
1. NOPE
2. I tend to enjoy not paying for someone's repackaging of ingredients, suspect till viewing of ingredient list, then may be proven not guilty.
3. NOPE neon organic,eh?
4. Good stuff, but again there are better less costly alternatives.
Next time we talk about INERT ingredients. ;) (Legally, you have the right, to not know!!)
There ya go friend! See how much more civilized you come across when you simply state your point without personal attacks? :)
Now, let's say I stop buying fertilizer.. I have several trees, but we'll use my most demanding tree as an example. My Persian Lime tree is about 5 ft tall and wide. I planted it roughly two years ago. It is constantly under attack by insects and will quickly show signs of nutrient deficiency. So, if I wanted to use only certified organic methods.. what would I need to add?.. how much?.. and how often?
For calculating the true cost of fertilizers, please see this thread: http://www.bananas.org/f312/economics-fertilizer-numbers-9122.html
Execellent thread! Thanks!
There ya go friend! See how much more civilized you come across when you simply state your point without personal attacks? :)
Now, let's say I stop buying fertilizer.. I have several trees, but we'll use my most demanding tree as an example. My Persian Lime tree is about 5 ft tall and wide. I planted it roughly two years ago. It is constantly under attack by insects and will quickly show signs of nutrient deficiency. So, if I wanted to use only certified organic methods.. what would I need to add?.. how much?.. and how often?
For citrus trees, don't go organic--it can kill your tree. I mulch most of my fruit trees and shrubs, but I lost several citrus trees to root rot before I found out that mulching citrus promotes root rot. I now keep the soil bare under my citrus trees and apply 2-4 cups a month of "Chemical" fertilizer--they are loaded with fruit!
Richard
08-15-2009, 12:13 PM
If you want to use less or zero toxins in your fertilizers, then don't rely on the terms "organic" or "certified organic". These labels usually mean something different than the purveyor would have you believe.
Farming is an un-natural made-made discipline. If you want to do something natural, then participate in habitat restoration. If you live in the southwestern U.S., then these folks have lots of non-subjective information to get you started: Tree Of Life (http://www.californianativeplants.com).
Sbl, you are correct that mulching is a poor choice for citrus in your climate and soil. In my less-humid environment here, it is a necessity but of course soil drainage is also needed.
OrganicBananac
08-15-2009, 12:39 PM
Mario,
Your tree sounds like it is in stress, there are many other variables other than food i would suggest checking out first. Water and drainage off the top of my head can make citrus finicky. Lets start there.
SBL,
Now this is where people like ...
Moderator: OrganicBananac (http://www.bananas.org/../member-organicbananac.html), I don't think that insulting any member here is the right course of action. Therefore I deleted the second part of the post and kept only the advice you see above.
Also, please note that we are here to exchange the knowledge, not trying to point out what others presumably don't know and harass them.
Please, read the rules once again and this time more carefully - here (http://www.bananas.org/rules.php). Especially #1 and #3.
Randy4ut
08-15-2009, 03:54 PM
Post Closed!!!!!
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