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JoeReal
08-10-2005, 07:15 PM
Musa ingens

See for yourself

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/mingens003.htm
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/mingens002.htm
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/mingens004.htm
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/mingens001.htm


And I have just found my shipment of 10 seeds of Musa ingens. I thought I lost them. I hope they are still viable.

So what's the best technique to germinate these mostly unknown seeds. Simulate the cold elevated rainforest conditions of PNG?

JoeReal
08-10-2005, 07:35 PM
Here's more info:


http://www.pacificbiological.org.au/projects/PBF_02_3/pbf_02_3.htm

http://uk.geocities.com/bananaswap/PlantPictures.htm


This is the largest and tallest of the bananas and, presumably, the largest non-woody plant in the world.

Simmonds notes that, like other montane species, it does not thrive in tropical Trinidad. Although tropical highlands are rather specialised habitats the poor growth of the plant in the lowland tropics suggests that it might grow in more temperate climes should it become available.

Placed in the newly created section Ingentimusa by Argent 1967 Musa ingens was transferred to section Musa 2 [Eumusa 2] by Simmonds & Weatherup 1990 despite its anomalous chromosome number. Following Jong & Argent 2001 the plant is returned to the Ingentimusa.

The full description from Simmonds 1960 is as follows:

Plants huge, the pseudostems 10-15 m. tall and 2 m. in girth at the base, sparsely suckering; juice watery; sheaths waxy below, tinged reddish brown above; petioles up to 60 cm. long, deeply channeled above with erect and slightly scarious margins; leaves up to 5 x 1 m.; inflorescence huge, pendulous borne on a massive glabrous peduncle 10 cm. in diameter; basal hands very numerous (ca. 20), each bearing 16-25 hermaphrodite flowers; hermaphrodite flowers, the ovary 5-6 x 1-2-1.4 cm., angular, slightly tapered above and below, trilocular with biseriate ovules, the compound tepal 4.5 cm. long, thickened at the back angles, and surmounted by 5 deep (2 cm.) lobes, the outermost pair of major lobes bearing awn-like processes 7 mm. long, the inner lobes shortly (2 mm.) apiculate, the free tepal about 3 cm. long, oblong, raggedly obtuse-mucronate at the apex, hardly tapered towards the base, somewhat thickened at the back and transversely wrinkled-corrugated in the upper two thirds of its length, the style massive, about 4 mm. thick surmounted by an irregularly shaped but not greatly swollen stigma, the stamens 5, somewhat shorter than the stigma; bracts of the basal hands deciduous, oblong, subobtuse, ca. 34 x 18 cm., somewhat fleshy-leathery, and apparently not so brittle as the male bracts; male axis massive, ca. 1 m. long at time of bunch maturity, with very prominent bract insertion scars; male bud massive, oblong to subglobose, the component bracts loosely packed and not imbricate at the tip; male bracts deciduous, very broadly ovate 21 x 17 cm., rounded at the apex, shallowly dish-shaped and slightly hooded at the tip, thin, leathery-brittle (not toughly fibrous) in texture, dull greyish-purple and shiny without, pale in colour within; male flowers 20-25 per bract, biseriate, each 7 cm. x 5-6 mm. overall, the abortive ovary 8 mm. long, the compound tepal 6 cm. long, strongly thickened along the two angles, deeply (4 mm.) 5 (i.e. 3 + 2)-toothed and tinged with orange-yellow at the apex, the free tepal 3 cm. long, oblanceolate, rounded and ragged-mucronate at the apex, tapered and slightly thickened at the back towards the base, the stamens 5, with anther 2.5 cm. long and filament 2 cm. long, elongating at anthesis; fruit-bunch massive, about 20 hands of 16-25 fruits each, very compact, estimated to weigh about 60 kg.; mature fruits massive, ca. 18 x 3-4 cm., largest towards the base of the bunch, tapering below into the short (2 cm.) pedicel, rounded or shortly and bluntly acuminate at the apex, devoid of floral remnants, lightly angled and somewhat flattened on the faces opposed to neighbours in development, pale in colour; seeds smoothly angular in outline, very variable in shape as a result of compression between neighbours, dark brown to black, ca. 7 mm. in mean diameter (4-10 mm.) with a deep (2 mm.) hilar cavity but lacking an umbo opposite the hilum; somatic chromosome number 2n = 14.

Gabe15
08-10-2005, 10:05 PM
Just to let you know, when seeds were collected on the 1989 PNG mission by INIBAP, they got 0% germination by traditional methods and another 0% after embryo rescue germination. Simmonds was extremely lucky to have only a very small amount come up and then they eventually died under the full tropical conditions at the Imperial College of Tropical Agriculture in Trinidad. Conclusion: I got 50 and we never know who will be the lucky one!

Bonheur
08-10-2005, 10:11 PM
What methods are you using to try to get these to germinate? When did you start?

Gabe15
08-10-2005, 10:26 PM
I started a few months ago. Im trying the normal, soak for 2 days and plant, but Im trying them in all sorts of locations around my house that vary in temperature.

sean
08-10-2005, 11:38 PM
Gabe - want me to test out a few seeds in south florida conditions? :)

Tropicallvr
08-11-2005, 01:22 AM
I have some seeds too, and am wondering what the temp fluctuation must be up there in those mountains.
So far not luck with my heat mat on fluctuating temps. I wonder how the guy you mentioned did it?
I bet once they sprouted they would do good here on the foggy coast.

bananalover
08-11-2005, 09:00 PM
You know I have no problem sprouting seeds. I have read a lot about the problems but just never encountered any. Most musa sprout within a couple weeks as long a I plant them in the middle of summer leading me to believe most sprout real well with 90's during the day and middle 70's at night.

JoeReal
08-12-2005, 06:17 PM
Thanks for the encouragement bananlover! If I were to guess about Musa ingens requirement, it might involve acidic stratification, with prolonged moisture and then sunlight exposure under humid environment and warm temperature.

Acidic, because most soils and decaying matter in the tropical forest with relatively high rainfall. Also the fruit pulps when being decayed away by molds or fungi may have some role, nevertheless, they also create acidic environments. Naturally for bananas, high moisture and warmer temperature are favorable for seed germination. The sunlight exposure may break down the inhibitors that would indicate a clearing that needs to be exploited and fast else other seeds would colonize faster, taking note that this banana is competing in an elevated tropical rainforest setting. Perhaps some very slight chilling stratification as well, that perhaps in the 55 to 65 deg F range or whatever fits the coolest temperature season to signal change in the monsoon rains.

Tropicallvr
08-13-2005, 02:07 AM
This year is my first trying outside planting(without heat mat fluctuations which seems to work good). So far nothing, but it's only been a couple weeks. Hopefully some of the straglers will come up.
Joe seems to be closing in on a good theory for the M.ingens, because I doubt it gets above 90 in the highlands.
If anyone get's some to sprout, do share your experience.

Tropicallvr
08-13-2005, 02:11 AM
OH yeah, some high altitude palms resent high night time temps and die, so maybe this is also the case with M.ingens plants.

Chironex
07-15-2008, 06:43 PM
Does anyone have a site to get M. Itinerans var. Gigantea/Xishuangbannaensis? I have been looking all over the net for them, but no luck yet. I must be a glutton for punishment because I am also seeking Ingens seed. I found some, but who knows how many will be needed to get just one plant?
PM me if you find a source, please!

proletariatcsp
07-15-2008, 08:03 PM
Ok I'm starting to understand the whole novelty of it, having a banana as tall as a tree. And knowing myself I'd probably have to grow it just to see if I could. Only, I worry that here in FL that thing wouldn't have the natural wind protection that it does in its habitat, and sadly it would just get ripped to shreds or uprooted. Then, of corse, there is the problem of fetching off the bananas from 40 feet up. That too is another thing I don't get about these herbs, I mean, its not like the nanners are any bigger you know? Well maybe the bunch is somewhat larger, and that epic 3ft inflorescense I mean come on. How could I bring myelf to orphan something in such terrible soil, knowing there is nothing but sand and dense muck only 6 inches down. This thing is gonna need at least 5ft of really nice black stuff. Anything less would just be torture to its roots. Trying to hold onto those enormous, 20ft beautiful green leaves. Way up there just bouncing on the air shading everything 3 stories beneath. Wow. . . *zzzzz*. . .huh? Ah heck, where can I get one of those for my yard???

:ha:

proletariatcsp
07-15-2008, 08:10 PM
Wait a sec,

Has anyone considered how much the water bill would be to feed that species? Whoa. I'd bet its close to filling the kiddie pool everynight! LOL

natedogg1026
07-15-2008, 10:13 PM
I stick with my Saba till Gabe TC's the Ingens. LOL!

Dean W.
07-24-2008, 08:23 PM
Nate, what's the picture of your avatar.

Ahava
07-24-2008, 08:37 PM
Just to let you know, when seeds were collected on the 1989 PNG mission by INIBAP, they got 0% germination by traditional methods and another 0% after embryo rescue germination. Simmonds was extremely lucky to have only a very small amount come up and then they eventually died under the full tropical conditions at the Imperial College of Tropical Agriculture in Trinidad. Conclusion: I got 50 and we never know who will be the lucky one!

I know this may sound like an oddball thing everyone. Maybe I'm just spouting nonsense but I had a thought. Do you possibly think that perhaps the reason why they tend to be hard to germinate, and the ones that have died shortly thereafter could be because of the oxygen levels at the lower elevation. I know it sounds odd, but I do know that there are some collectors who grow alpine flowers, and some sub-alpine flowers, but some just won't make it at some lower elevations no matter what people do because of the difference in the air. Some plants seem to be more sensative to such conditions compared to others.

Gabe15
07-24-2008, 09:07 PM
I know this may sound like an oddball thing everyone. Maybe I'm just spouting nonsense but I had a thought. Do you possibly think that perhaps the reason why they tend to be hard to germinate, and the ones that have died shortly thereafter could be because of the oxygen levels at the lower elevation. I know it sounds odd, but I do know that there are some collectors who grow alpine flowers, and some sub-alpine flowers, but some just won't make it at some lower elevations no matter what people do because of the difference in the air. Some plants seem to be more sensative to such conditions compared to others.

I'm thinking for the case of M. ingens, it is a temperature related issue. I think this because during the original studies of them, they were able to germinate the (very fresh) seeds fine at sea level, but found they could only keep them alive by bringing potted plants into air conditioning at night. This plant will be introduced to tissue culture very soon (who knows if they will be able to easily grow it though), so maybe everyone can try it out and see where it will grow, because thats the only way we will know for sure.

Tropicallvr
07-24-2008, 09:10 PM
Usally with high elevation palms not surviving in the lower elevations it's due to the lack of night time tempature drop. But the germination part's really puzzeling
What elevation are they from anyways?

Ahava
07-24-2008, 09:13 PM
Thanks for the quick reply. It makes perfect sense. Although I wonder why the plants need to be brought in at night at cooler temperatures. In their natural climate is there a big temperature drop when the sun goes down because of the elevation? Anyhow the oxygen thing was something that was at the edge of my mind because I was recently looking into alpine plants, and alpine houses and such and was going on from what I happened to read there and that it might apply in other situations.

Gabe15
07-24-2008, 09:25 PM
I mis-remembered the article but just re-read it, it said the seeds germinated at sea level but did not establish, and suckers brought down from the highlands to sea level lived only if brought into air conditioning for at least the nights.

Gabe15
07-24-2008, 09:26 PM
Usally with high elevation palms not surviving in the lower elevations it's due to the lack of night time tempature drop. But the germination part's really puzzeling
What elevation are they from anyways?

1000-2100m with flowering seeming to be restricted to the 1000-1600m range. So I suppose seeds could germinate above 1600m, but plant vigor declined so much they could not flower.

Gabe15
07-24-2008, 09:29 PM
Thanks for the quick reply. It makes perfect sense. Although I wonder why the plants need to be brought in at night at cooler temperatures. In their natural climate is there a big temperature drop when the sun goes down because of the elevation? Anyhow the oxygen thing was something that was at the edge of my mind because I was recently looking into alpine plants, and alpine houses and such and was going on from what I happened to read there and that it might apply in other situations.

It doesn't matter where in the world you are, when you go up in elevation it can get cold!

Ahava
07-24-2008, 10:39 PM
Point well taken. Good luck to all who give it a good try.

Raules
07-25-2008, 11:05 PM
It will be interesting to observe growth of this plant. Very huge sizes for a grass, a unique plant.

Basjoofriend
07-26-2008, 07:04 AM
Hi,

I don't have success with seed of Musa ingens here. But I stored some seeds of Musa inges for years in my refrigerator at approx. 4°C and sent them last April to my housekeeper to Lucianópolis to Brazil. He sown them out, actually not germinated yet. But I will check them next month in Brazil. Also I ordered seeds of Musa itinerans ssp. giganteum syn. xishuangbannaensis and sent them last Monday to Helton of Frutas Raras. I sent him acuminata ssp. microcarpa Monkey Fingers, sikkimensis, sikkimensis "Red Flash", cheesmani, xishuangbannaensis, Daj Giant, Helen's Hybrid, Ensete superbum, one Ensete species from Thailand, Musa thomsonii and one another to Brazil on Monday and yesterday. He will germinate my seeds and give me the seedlings in January or February back to outplant in my yard in Lucianópolis. Are too many plants every species, then he can keep some. This solves the problem of exportation of new banana species to Brazil, Helton helps me. He also tries to get some pups of Musa basjoo. I will try to make Musa basjoo x xishuangbannaensis, one giant hardy banana and export the seed from Brazil.

If Helton do have success of germinate xishuangbannaensis, then it will be the Brazilian sensation with xishuangbannaensis in the height of 12 or more metres and very thick pseudotrunks of about 50 cm, more than "Saba" or so like.

I feel, that "Saba" is the biggest fruit banana all over the world! Although it is also one must for my yard in Brazil, but I may not import pups of "Saba" to Brazil unfortunately, there is a Brazilian law of import prohibition from 17th May 2005.

I think, Musa xishuangbannaensis and "Saba" are easier than ingens.

Best wishes
Joachim

Tropicallvr
07-27-2008, 04:11 PM
You should have good luck with the Musa initerans sprouting as I have had great luck with them in tropical weather.
The only thing is that if I'm not mistaken, the seeds being sold as Musa initerans gigantea are actually Musa yunnaninsis which is alot smaller plant, but quite cold hardy, but would also make a great basjoo cross if possible.

Chironex
07-28-2008, 01:00 AM
depending upon how many Ingens seeds I get, I plan to try several different methods to attempt to germinate them. Here are some of the methods I am considering:
All will begin with efforts to sterilize the seed first with bleach solution or hydrogen peroxide.

1) 2 week soak, then place them on a heat mat with fluctuating temps.
2) Soak in saliva overnight maintained at 37 degrees C., then fluctuating temps as above in #1
3) Soak in orange juice, guava, pineapple or similar acidic fruit juice, then as above (already tried Gibberellic acid soak in the past with no discernable difference in germination of other Musa seeds)
4) Was thinking of growing them directly in composted horse manure. Fresh might be more effective, but just nasty to think about. Has anyone ever thought of banana compost?
5) Pauly was suggesting alternating moist/dry/moist/dry cycles to simulate their indigenous environment.
6) Cold stratification followed by warm stratification.

Please feel free to chime in with your thoughts, hypotheses, etc. I may also look for a microclimate on a mountainside near here that maintains the right altitude and temperature range. Will mark it with a GPS.

Chironex
09-09-2008, 02:04 PM
Just got some Ingens seeds - about 15 are all that were available, so half are going into soil, the other half into sterile soil. Looking for them to germinate within 2 years - by then they will be in TC for $5.95 I imagine.
<sigh>

pharazon
09-09-2008, 05:18 PM
Let me know where to sign to get on the waiting list. :bananas_b

chong
09-09-2008, 05:33 PM
Scot,
Have you considered soaking some of the seeds in Cape Seed Germination Primer? I have had great success with difficult seeds with it. Although, I know that there are a few in this forum that have different opinions on it.

Chong

Tropicallvr
09-09-2008, 05:56 PM
Just got some Ingens seeds - about 15 are all that were available, so half are going into soil, the other half into sterile soil. Looking for them to germinate within 2 years - by then they will be in TC for $5.95 I imagine.
<sigh>

I wish you luck! Since you have a hand in the tissue culture scene, have you considered the embryo rescue route for getting those buggers to germinate?

lt_eggbeater
09-09-2008, 09:33 PM
Has anyone gotten any of these to grow out of it's native habitat. I don't suppose pups are available at any price?

Chironex
10-04-2008, 05:55 PM
No one I have heard of has one growing except one of our members who has been able to grow one or two from seed. Since he/she has not announced this on the forum, it would be inappropriate for me to disclose. I have heard rumors of possible TC on them, but not confirmed.
We will just have to wait and see what develops.

Chironex
10-04-2008, 05:58 PM
I wish you luck! Since you have a hand in the tissue culture scene, have you considered the embryo rescue route for getting those buggers to germinate?

Working on that, but as Gabe said before, most of the seeds out there have been in sopil at least once and are heavily contaminated.

I am still working on getting some fresh seed from PNG.

Chironex
10-04-2008, 06:08 PM
Scot,
Have you considered soaking some of the seeds in Cape Seed Germination Primer? I have had great success with difficult seeds with it. Although, I know that there are a few in this forum that have different opinions on it.

Chong

I considered doing it, but have not ordered any. I made a post about it shortly after joining here and everyone thought it wouldn't add anything significant to the germination process for banana seeds.

I might give it a go if someone has an extra sheet of it they could send. I can't see buying a whole packet of the stuff for just a few seeds one time.

chong
10-04-2008, 06:11 PM
I considered doing it, but have not ordered any. I made a post about it shortly after joining here and everyone thought it wouldn't add anything significant to the germination process for banana seeds.

I might give it a go if someone has an extra sheet of it they could send. I can't see buying a whole packet of the stuff for just a few seeds one time.

PM me your mailing address. I'll send you a couple. For a few seeds, you'll only need a third of a sheet, anyway.

Chong