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View Full Version : The cold hardiness of Hajaray hybrid and hills bananas


asacomm
01-28-2009, 04:10 AM
It was my understanding from the sorts of advertisement and articles that
the cold hardiness of those bananas is -10C for Hajaray, -3C for Pahai kela
and Virupakshi.

However I have recently been informed by a member of this forum that a
banana grower in Southern California has failed the overwintering of Hajaray
and Pahari Kela and that his banana friend in Northern India had trouble with
Virupakshi in the temperature of +4.5C as it is considered to grow not colder
than +7C.

Now I have been astonished that Hajaray and Pahari Kela had already introduced
into US and tested for their hardiness. I have never known this fact.

If this is the case, the interest in these varieties more or less fades away
as there are some other candidates like Cal. Gold, Thousand Fingers. Orinoco,
Monkey Fingers and Brazilian which can easily be purchased and more hardy
than the Indian varieties.

What do you think?!

bigdog
01-28-2009, 11:52 AM
Well, I would be shocked if Musa 'Hajaray' had failed in Southern California! That would mean that he/she would have tried it LAST winter, and that it didn't come back last spring. Seems sort of unlikely, considering the newness of this hybrid. If it didn't make it, then I would have to believe that M. sikkimensis wasn't one of the parents. Who is the grower, and can your forum member friend post on here the exact details please? Call me skeptical...

Chironex
01-28-2009, 03:24 PM
I agree with 'Skeptical' (sorry Frank, had to). Interesting that it got in under the radar here. Where in southern California is the person growing it? I would like to hear more detail as well.

asacomm
01-28-2009, 06:13 PM
Hi Frank Bigdog and Scot Chironex,

Thanks for your comments. I also cannot undestand it all.
It is mentioned that the Hajaray and Pahari Kela have REPEATEDLY failed in
southern California, and then the fact is either they failed at least two winters,
or they faild the same winter in the plural places in southern California.
In any case, these varieties had already been introduced into the US at
least a year ago, and it is somehow weird as I understand these varieties
have been widely known quite recently.

Therefore I also want more informations.

Richard
01-28-2009, 11:22 PM
Here is what I know about these musas.
My colleague in north central India has tried growing the sacred banana Virupakshi at his home. The stock comes from near the temple farther south which is decidedly zone 11b. This plant fails at his home which is zone 10a. As for the "Virupakshi" introduced into the U.S., I have no idea if it is the same plant.
The Hajaray and Pahari Kela have failed for growers in Camarillo, California and Rancho Santa Fe (San Diego) California. In the latter case, the plants died right next to plats with Raja Puri and Namwa. They do not appear to be cold hardy to me. However, our local expert Jon (pitangadiego) may have more on the subject for us.

harveyc
01-29-2009, 11:35 AM
Thanks, Richard. Do you know if the Camarillo grower obtained the Pahari Kel from Dr. Parmar? Are these experiences reported somewhere online where we can read more?

Harvey

Jack Daw
01-29-2009, 06:56 PM
Yes, any more information on whether it's from dr Parmar? Can these issues be overcome or not?

Richard
01-30-2009, 12:40 AM
Thanks, Richard. Do you know if the Camarillo grower obtained the Pahari Kel from Dr. Parmar? Are these experiences reported somewhere online where we can read more?
Harvey

The Camarillo grower is someone I met at a horticultural meeting. I have no information about their source. The Rancho Santa Fe grower obtained theirs while visiting family in India. All of this came up about 1 year ago when I was researching hardy bananas to grow at my home.
Note: on 1/5/2008 I joined this site and was not growing any bananas. I then spent 3 to 5 months seriously researching varieties and began to focus on about six. I then spent about 6 months acquiring varieties as they came available. Most of these came from members here, including bencelest (thanks!), MsKitty (thanks!), and of course pitangadiego (thanks! thanks!).
Dr. Parmar and I have discussed many things over the years. We have mailed each other letters, computer disks, and of course his CD. But on three occasions he has sent seeds but they did not make it all the way here. So at least in this region packages from him might be on a watch-list.

Yes, any more information on whether it's from dr Parmar? Can these issues be overcome or not?

You can't overcome the fact that most of India is a tropical climate. Even the Himalayan foothills are in zone 10 to 7,000 foot elevation.

:woohoonaner:

51st state
02-01-2009, 09:24 AM
USDA zones just dont work at this latitude.

see map of climate zones

File:India climatic zone map en.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:India_climatic_zone_map_en.svg)

plants from the Eastern Highlands moist deciduous forests, the Himalayan subtropical broadleaf forests North Western Ghats moist deciduous forests are all possible candidates for european and US (non florida) growers.

Pahari Kela from Uttaranchal Pradesh and Hajaray from around Kalimpong West Bengal may grow with protection in USDA zones 7/8. i guess it's a matter of trying these things.

I doubt if there is a hardier banana than Basjoo, but it may be possible to find a cultivar that will produce edible fruit. Only one way to find out.

I was aware the Dhusray and Malbhog but not Hajaray had been exported from India before. Anyone with info on Dhusray and Malbhog growing outside of India?

chong
02-01-2009, 01:12 PM
I was aware the Dhusray and Malbhog but not Hajaray had been exported from India before. Anyone with info on Dhusray and Malbhog growing outside of India?

Now you've opened another can of worms! Everyone will be scampering to find out how to get some of these!

51st state
02-01-2009, 06:33 PM
Now you've opened another can of worms! Everyone will be scampering to find out how to get some of these!

Due in snowy Wiltshire shortly :ha: distribution will commence once they've had a little rest and put out at least some roots, so I know they're growing. and before anyone starts hardiness is not completely known. however they all grow in the area around Kalimpong.

asacomm
02-01-2009, 08:39 PM
Hello Kev(51state),

In my place, Helen's hybrid can overwinter with very little damage completely
without any winter protection.
So it is not necessary for me to find out any species hardier than Basjoo,
and any species with the equivalent hardiness with Helen's hybrid will be ok.

What do you think the difference in the hardiness between Helen's hybrid and
these two species?

51st state
02-02-2009, 03:15 AM
Hello Kev(51state),

What do you think the difference in the hardiness between Helen's hybrid and
these two species?

No idea at all, although they are known to grow in the same area.

we shall see

Richard
02-02-2009, 12:16 PM
USDA zones just dont work at this latitude.


USDA hardiness zones work at any latitude because they are only concerned with average minimum low temperature.

Note that USDA zones are not climate zones. For that you need something more serious, such as the Sunset Garden zones.

Jack Daw
05-21-2009, 06:39 AM
USDA hardiness zones work at any latitude because they are only concerned with average minimum low temperature.

Note that USDA zones are not climate zones. For that you need something more serious, such as the Sunset Garden zones.
One more thing on this topic. Pahari Kela and others are Hill bananas. Meaning, that they need hill like conditions, not a lowland.. they won't perform well therefore in the lower based places.

Then if we should consider that India is Tropical or subtropical, we wouldn't be succesfully growing a variety of Trachycarpus palms all over the Europe (Even Scandinavia). Once you get from India to the region that has something to do with Himalaya, the conditions change a lot.

Even in my country - 10 km from Carpathian mountains oaks grow freely and widely, whereas the only small factor of 300 meters above the sea level in the hills seems to make such a big difference, that there are no oaks at all.

I now posses several Pahari Kela, I will give it a try and let you all know.

harveyc
05-21-2009, 09:00 AM
One more thing on this topic. Pahari Kela and others are Hill bananas. Meaning, that they need hill like conditions, not a lowland.. they won't perform well therefore in the lower based places.

Jack, where have you read that Pahari Kela will not perform in lowlands?

Jack Daw
05-21-2009, 09:53 AM
Jack, where have you read that Pahari Kela will not perform in lowlands?
Considering it's nature and descriptions. I haven't read that, it's just as with other fruits and vegetables. Conditions in higher elevations are significantly different, from wind, through precipitation, day-night temperatures difference. It's like trying to grow apples in tropical India. Unrealistic. Not because the conditions are bad, but becasue the apple tree needs certain amount of time to regenarate (winter time) and once the winter is weak or none at all, there's a problem and the apple trees will tire out, meaning, that it might die with any weak stress. And maybe that's why this banana grows only in the hills and mountainious India... ? Just guess... Will see...

harveyc
05-21-2009, 10:28 AM
I have assumed that this banana is only grown in the mountains is because it can survive in the mountains but there are better choices for the warmer climates. That's my guess but, as you say, we'll see. Once I get one, that is! ;)

Even among things that naturally only grow in the mountains, many do very well in the lowlands of many areas.

Jack Daw
05-21-2009, 10:30 AM
I have assumed that this banana is only grown in the mountains is because it can survive in the mountains but there are better choices for the warmer climates. That's my guess but, as you say, we'll see. Once I get one, that is! ;)

Even among things that naturally only grow in the mountains, many do very well in the lowlands of many areas.
When are your plants due to come? When did you pay/when were they send?

harveyc
05-21-2009, 10:45 AM
Chong is our USA organizer on this effort, so I'll leave it to him to post publicly about the status of this effort. I'm not holding my breath!

chong
05-21-2009, 07:38 PM
When are your plants due to come? When did you pay/when were they send?

Jack,
I sent the payment a month ago, but I've had email problems and so, Dr. Parmar's emails were not coming through, so I did not know that he was having problems with the Phyto-Certificate. It was only this last week that he decided to send the emails and listed Harvey on the cc block. Harvey has been forwarding Dr. Parmar's e-mails to me. So, it is only now I found out that Dr. Parmar cannot obtain a Phyto-Certificate, and therefore, our process is stalled. I have to convince the USDA of some alternate certification process if they will even listen.

I notice that your bananas arrived, finally. My, it has traveled over a month to get to you, it seems. But congratulations to you!

asacomm
05-22-2009, 01:51 AM
Hi Chong,
You wrote us an unwelcome info that Dr. Parmer cannot obtain a Phyto-
Certificate from the Government and thus your process shall be stalled.

Our Government of Japan strictly prohibits importations of banana pups
without the phyto-certificate from the government of its exportation.
So I am only at a loss what I could do to obtain these bananas.

chong
05-22-2009, 04:15 AM
Hello Asacomm,
Unfortunately, that may be true here also. I'm just making a last ditch effort to persuade the authorities here to accept alternate inspection from a foreign expert in the locality of the exporter, then have more rigorous inspection here, with the understanding that cost of any required treatment of the material, as necessary, will be compensated to them. If this fails, I will just have to ask Dr. Parmar to return my check, and try again under favorable conditions. I definitely will not by-pass the inspection process, at the risk of losing my permit. I already had a large shipment of seeds from Thailand confiscated and destroyed because one of the seed variety was banned from entry in the US. I was lucky that they did not cancel my permit.

Sorry to be the bearer of sad tidings. I am just as disappointed as you are.

asacomm
05-22-2009, 05:38 PM
Hello Chong again,

You are absolutely right in what you are thinking and doing, and I also have
no intention to do any tricky procesures regarding the import restrictions of
banana pups.

So in case you find regal effective procesures or something else, please do
tell me for my restart of this issue.

Jack Daw
05-22-2009, 05:53 PM
Jack,
I sent the payment a month ago, but I've had email problems and so, Dr. Parmar's emails were not coming through, so I did not know that he was having problems with the Phyto-Certificate. It was only this last week that he decided to send the emails and listed Harvey on the cc block. Harvey has been forwarding Dr. Parmar's e-mails to me. So, it is only now I found out that Dr. Parmar cannot obtain a Phyto-Certificate, and therefore, our process is stalled. I have to convince the USDA of some alternate certification process if they will even listen.

I notice that your bananas arrived, finally. My, it has traveled over a month to get to you, it seems. But congratulations to you!

Hi Chong,
You wrote us an unwelcome info that Dr. Parmer cannot obtain a Phyto-
Certificate from the Government and thus your process shall be stalled.

Our Government of Japan strictly prohibits importations of banana pups
without the phyto-certificate from the government of its exportation.
So I am only at a loss what I could do to obtain these bananas.

Hello Asacomm,
Unfortunately, that may be true here also. I'm just making a last ditch effort to persuade the authorities here to accept alternate inspection from a foreign expert in the locality of the exporter, then have more rigorous inspection here, with the understanding that cost of any required treatment of the material, as necessary, will be compensated to them. If this fails, I will just have to ask Dr. Parmar to return my check, and try again under favorable conditions. I definitely will not by-pass the inspection process, at the risk of losing my permit. I already had a large shipment of seeds from Thailand confiscated and destroyed because one of the seed variety was banned from entry in the US. I was lucky that they did not cancel my permit.

Sorry to be the bearer of sad tidings. I am just as disappointed as you are.

Hello Chong again,

You are absolutely right in what you are thinking and doing, and I also have
no intention to do any tricky procesures regarding the import restrictions of
banana pups.

So in case you find regal effective procesures or something else, please do
tell me for my restart of this issue.
Chong, it's no problem, if Dr. Parmar has some troubles. If you don't manage to get the plants from India and if and when my plants catch and grow well, I might be able to send you some pups to USA during the next spring (if I hav some by then), 'cause I promised some already. If I understand it well, the phytocertiphicates can be obtained from our national agricultural association for a reasonable amount of money, depending on the number of plants being certiphicated, no matter the type.
I will also do some hardiness experiment (frost is no problem in my region in winter, lots of it whenever I want :D ) to determine how long the plants may or may not survive and also maybe conduct some outside overwintering method os P-stem for zones 7b/8a this or the next year.

One of the plants I got is showing something that might be considered as growing, so we will see, it's only their 2nd day in the soil.

The plants wouldn't come through our customs as well, but the people there forgot to let me know and because they didnt want me to file official note in their records, they inspected the plants quickly and made basic bacterial decontamination. Lucky me... :D ;)

What is this permit of yours and how does it work in the USA with all these phytocertiphicates?

chong
05-22-2009, 06:45 PM
Thank you very much, Jack! Best of Luck to you with your banana plants!

Chong

chong
05-22-2009, 07:04 PM
Hello Chong again,

You are absolutely right in what you are thinking and doing, and I also have
no intention to do any tricky procesures regarding the import restrictions of
banana pups.

So in case you find regal effective procesures or something else, please do
tell me for my restart of this issue.

I will keep you posted. For the moment, though, I would have to hold off the importation of the plants. I just came back from the USDA office here, and spoke to three officers. They all told me that ONLY a government certificate is acceptable. However, they told me to contact the USDA office in Washington, DC, and request more information in regards to any alternate proposals. This would prolong the procedures, and possibly take months, if no years, to sort out.

I could potentially arrange to have them shipped to another intermediate country, then get it inspected there and obtain a phytosanitary certificate, and have them re-packaged and re-shipped here. But, realistically, even this will take months to achieve.

Many of the other scenarios that the senior officer discussed with require enormous amount of time and money to accomplish. With just the money involved, we could get 4 or 5 times the number of CA Gold or CA Hardy, for every Pahari Kela.

chong
05-22-2009, 07:31 PM
What is this permit of yours and how does it work in the USA with all these phytocertiphicates?

It is permit that is required by the USDA in order to import plants from other countries on a regular basis. A phytosanitary certificate is mandatory, whether you have a permit or not. The difference is that if you have a permit, you can order as many plants as you want at any one time. While without a permit, depending on your mode of transportation, you are limited to a maximum of twelve plants each time.

asacomm
05-22-2009, 09:50 PM
I think Jack Daw was quite lucky in any case as he actually received the pups
from India.

Quite similar to the USA, Japan is considered to be one of the most strict
countries as to the importation of plants, especially musa pups.
It is mandantory to furnish the Customs the phtosanitary certificate and
the nematode-fee certificate both authorized by the government of the
export countries. Without these certificates, there is no room to negotiate
import of the musas. No other way is possible.

harveyc
05-22-2009, 11:30 PM
I don't think Jack was particularly "lucky" as there are many countries which don't have strict importation laws, especially if they don't have major agricultural industries. Even with shipping plants within the USA we find great differences between the requirements set by different states. Based on casual observations, it seems that countries and states with colder climates seem less concerned with the importation of insects and diseases.

I had passed information on to Chong previously from a friend of mine who is working on a USDA project in India right now. He was hoping to import some items back to the USA and I was hoping to get him to possibly ship some banana plants (especially since he is going to visit a friend with something like 390 different types), but he reported he had been told a phytosanitary certificate would cost about US$400 to obtain. This made me wonder how Dr. Parmar could ship plants to us in the USA for so much less and when I received his e-mail (addressed to Chong) explaining he could not obtain a phytosanitary certificate, it explained the lower cost. While Dr. Parmar did not indicate the cost for the phytosanitary certificate, he did say it would require considerable travel and take more than one day.

If Jack is able to get a phytosanitary certificate from his government authorities for a modest fee, it may be best for us USA folks wanting to try the Hill Banana to get a group order shipped from Jack next year (unless he kills them all with his experiments with abundant frost!). Since states such as California require certificates that plants shipped from certain warm states (i.e., the deep south) are free of nematodes, it would still probably be best that the plants be shipped to a place like Chong in Washington since they can then be forwarded to others easily. I'm in no hurry to try the Hill Banana, so I don't care if I get one in the first round or not.

This sort of reminds me of another more difficult importation project I have been involved in. As many of you know, I grow chestnuts on my farm (among other things) and in late 2001 I decided I wanted to import some chestnuts from various sources. There are Federal restrictions which indicate that chestnuts can only be imported to a USDA station and held in quarantine for 3 years due to concerns with the blight virus. Then there are California regulations that also are concerned the blight virus as well as an oak wilt virus. The USDA indicated they would probably go along with whatever the California Department of Agriculture authorities decided. The CDFA staff told me that they would want the material quarantined for 5 years in a greenhouse and that they might want to require that it be located in the desert far away from any potential hosts. This was discouraging so I contacted someone I knew at a high level in a university and she got things moving quickly. An industry agency agreed to take care of importing the material and the quarantine. For this, they would charge $1,000 per cultivar. Fortunately, a nursery trade group agreed to fund the project and a meeting was held and various people submitted proposals for cultivars to be imported. These materials were released to me and a friend earlier this year and everyone else besides one other friend has forgotten about them. It amazes me to think that some of my recent grafts cost well over $100 each!!! Still, this shows that very difficult obstacles can still be overcome.

Unfortunately, I don't believe we can get any nursery group interested in sponsoring the importation of expensive bananas. It does look like Jack could be a good source next year, though.

Thanks for trying, Chong!

Harvey

Jack Daw
05-23-2009, 04:33 AM
It is permit that is required by the USDA in order to import plants from other countries on a regular basis. A phytosanitary certificate is mandatory, whether you have a permit or not. The difference is that if you have a permit, you can order as many plants as you want at any one time. While without a permit, depending on your mode of transportation, you are limited to a maximum of twelve plants each time.
So it means you can ship whatever amounts of whatever with certiphicate for whatever purposes?

I don't think Jack was particularly "lucky" as there are many countries which don't have strict importation laws, especially if they don't have major agricultural industries. Even with shipping plants within the USA we find great differences between the requirements set by different states. Based on casual observations, it seems that countries and states with colder climates seem less concerned with the importation of insects and diseases.
...
Harvey, I would just like to correct some information. Slovakia is an agricultural superpower in Europe. Along with Ukraine we supplied almost all the food crops and water to the whole Eastern block. Not only that, but we had so much left that we send about 1/2 of what we harvested to African countries (Eastern block + many African countries) for consumption as "harvest unable to be stocked dut o lack of space!".
In the souther Slovakia, lots of subtropical plants can be grown with adequate winter protection.
The mere fact that we don't do anything right now is, that we are obligated not to grow anything by EU. They firstly donated us with money to agriculture, but then, after we took it, forbade us to grow anything, but what they dictate (and so the only growing there is in Slovakia is made by individual farmers and in the gardens). And we import bad tomatoes from Spain (half of them rotts even before it gets to us) and other plant materials from other EU countries, that have more powerful votes in EU.
At least the soil rests for now. To conclude, we have one fo the best yieldieng soils in the world (Chernozem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem)).

More to that, the package from Dr. Parmar was labelled "not for commercial use" and people at the CLO ZOLL thought it would be for my personal collection in my greenhouse (not grown outdoors). ;)
Except for that, they kept it in various solutios to kill all the possible insects and bacteria. Tropical diseases are no problem in this part of region, because humidity and highest temperatures don't allow them to evolve, so no prob there:birthdaynana:. Howver there are parasites particularily in this region, which could be devastating in more tropcical conditions.

If Jack is able to get a phytosanitary certificate from his government authorities for a modest fee, it may be best for us USA folks wanting to try the Hill Banana to get a group order shipped from Jack next year (unless he kills them all with his experiments with abundant frost!). Since states such as California require certificates that plants shipped from certain warm states (i.e., the deep south) are free of nematodes, it would still probably be best that the plants be shipped to a place like Chong in Washington since they can then be forwarded to others easily. I'm in no hurry to try the Hill Banana, so I don't care if I get one in the first round or not.
The phytosanitary certiphicate shouldn't be a problem, I just have to go to our Agricultural association and they will make all the necessary testing for reasonable price hopefully. Anyways, I wanted to maybe try TCing of my own, so I will see, if I have enough spare time during summer to study and autumn to try something out..

chong
05-23-2009, 05:25 AM
So it means you can ship whatever amounts of whatever with certiphicate for whatever purposes?

With a permit and phytosanitary certificate, you can import any amount of plant materials that are not prohibited and within the size limitations. Examples of prohibited materials are seed plants of: Ipomoea aquatica, cannabis(marijuana), Papaver somniferum (opium poppy), Erythroxylum coca, certain GMO plants, bamboo, etc. You cannot import a very large tree.

The nice thing about it is that only one certificate is required per shipment. So, if you have a shipping containerful of plants, as long as each plant is properly identified on the permit and the certificate, only one certificate is required.

Jack Daw
05-23-2009, 05:36 AM
With a permit and phytosanitary certificate, you can import any amount of plant materials that are not prohibited and within the size limitations. Examples of prohibited materials are seed plants of: Ipomoea aquatica, cannabis(marijuana), Papaver somniferum (opium poppy), Erythroxylum coca, certain GMO plants, bamboo, etc. You cannot import a very large tree.

The nice thing about it is that only one certificate is required per shipment. So, if you have a shipping containerful of plants, as long as each plant is properly identified on the permit and the certificate, only one certificate is required.
That's very interesting. Did you have to pay for it once, or do you pay annualy?
Papaver somniferum grows like a weed here, even though it's forbidden and illegal to grow in a large scale, it grows all over the place, at the roads, in the parks, it's very vigorous in here, don't know why though.

chong
05-23-2009, 06:32 AM
That's very interesting. Did you have to pay for it once, or do you pay annualy?
Papaver somniferum grows like a weed here, even though it's forbidden and illegal to grow in a large scale, it grows all over the place, at the roads, in the parks, it's very vigorous in here, don't know why though.

I believe that here in the US and in the Philippines, you pay for each overseas shipment because they do have to inspect each shipment. Local larger companies shipping plant materials domestically may have the option of paying an annual fee.

Papaver somniferum is the source of opium which is processed into heroine. There are vegetable and ornamental poppies. The poppy seeds are used in pastries. With some companies here in the US, they have mandatory drug testing of new employees. The instruction sheet they give you, for preparations before the testing, says not consume anything with poppy seeds several days, or weeks, before the test. This is because those poppy seeds contain opium-like substances in them, and will trigger the sensor if you ate poppy seeds prior to the test.

harveyc
05-23-2009, 10:58 AM
Harvey, I would just like to correct some information. Slovakia is an agricultural superpower in Europe. Along with Ukraine we supplied almost all the food crops and water to the whole Eastern block.

Jack, I tried to word my comment carefully but I guess I was not careful enough. I did not intend to imply that Slovakia does not have a significant agricultural industry. I just said that many countries to not have strict import laws, especially if they do not have major agricultural industries. I don't know why Slovakia is less strict on import restrictions. I know that someone was able to import chestnuts into Greenland without any troubles at all, though getting them to grow was more of a challenge.

bigdog
05-23-2009, 11:43 AM
I also have a permit from USDA. I actually have 2 of them; one is the "Small Lots of Seeds" permit, which allows you to import up to 50 packets of seeds, 50 seeds per packet, as long as it isn't a prohibited species, without a phyto. The other permit is the one that chong has (PPQ 587). The permit is good for 3 years, and is free. It was not difficult to obtain.

I haven't imported anything from India yet, but from what I am told by contacts in India, it isn't that difficult or expensive to obtain a phyto. Perhaps Dr. Parmar just needs to go to a nursery to facilitate this! Good luck with it. I'd like to try this banana also!

Frank

asacomm
05-23-2009, 06:37 PM
Hello Jack Daw,

As I wrote some days ago, it is absoluely impossible to import any musa
pups into my country Japan without the phytosanitary certificate and the
nematode-free certificate both authorised by the government of exportation.

And now I do understood the difficult situation of obtaining these certificates
in India from the cost and timing point of view, and I should admit a direct
import of the pups from India is thus almost impossible.

So if you don't mind, could please list my mane on the indirect import planing
that the US banana friends are talking about?
Thanks.

harveyc
05-23-2009, 07:13 PM
Slovakia, the new banana import/export capital of the world! :ha:

51st state
05-24-2009, 02:42 AM
Phyto certs in India are not expensive and (for export driven nurseries at least) are easy to obtain. When importing Musa into the EU there are certain additional declarations which must be added to the standard Phyto, best to check with your own country's Min. of Agri. and customs, prior to placing any orders.

Jack Daw
05-24-2009, 02:51 AM
Jack, I tried to word my comment carefully but I guess I was not careful enough. I did not intend to imply that Slovakia does not have a significant agricultural industry. I just said that many countries to not have strict import laws, especially if they do not have major agricultural industries. I don't know why Slovakia is less strict on import restrictions. I know that someone was able to import chestnuts into Greenland without any troubles at all, though getting them to grow was more of a challenge.

No, it wasn't offensive, I just felt like explaining our situation to someone out of the Europe. We are just a shade of what we were. The real problem is, that only the oldest of us can remember the traditional way of gardening and growing in the Slovakia. And there's only a small group of young people, that feels the need to learn it. :( That's what bothers me. If it goes like this for another 20 years, we might never get to being that agriculturaly develped, as before. 1300 years of agriculture in this region and away for what. For some donations by EU? Well thank ou very much.
So this is what I hate about EU, it just makes certain decisions, that are in favor of more populated countries. Fortunatelly, not only our people are beginning to notice that. We just have to preserve our knowledge and once we will be needing it again, in much larger scale.

Hello Jack Daw,

As I wrote some days ago, it is absoluely impossible to import any musa
pups into my country Japan without the phytosanitary certificate and the
nematode-free certificate both authorised by the government of exportation.

And now I do understood the difficult situation of obtaining these certificates
in India from the cost and timing point of view, and I should admit a direct
import of the pups from India is thus almost impossible.

So if you don't mind, could please list my mane on the indirect import planing
that the US banana friends are talking about?
Thanks.

If I promised any more pup, I would be lying. One is going to my friend, who so kindly gave me another pups long time ago, one is to my friend in Croatia... If I am lucky, and I hope I will be, all the plants (5) will put out an offshot eventually. But of these, 3 have already it's owners. Therefore, the first available pups, that will be, will probably be sent to US, for TCing. If you don't get your hands on one and/or it would take long to get you one from US, I will gladly give it to you, but guys, im Zone 7b/8a, there's a limit to my weather as to what I can do. :D

Slovakia, the new banana import/export capital of the world! :ha:
Nay, just might have been too lucky this time. :D

BB73
08-23-2010, 04:31 PM
Is there any update on this nanners? It's been a year now and there might have been some freezing in Slovakia since then :-)

51st state
08-24-2010, 03:59 AM
The update from the UK would be this; I would rate the Indian hybrids I grow in the following order

1/ Helens Hybrid (lots of Sikkimensis in this one)
2/ Malbhog (grows well in a wet summer)
3/ Chini Champa
4/ Dhusray (slow to return)
5/ Hajaray (needs a fair amount of heat to kick in to growth)

At the end of the day a realistic assessment is that the growing season in Northern Europe (even with overwintering in a frost free (min 8C) polytunnel) is too short to get these to produce fruit. You may just about get flowers but fruit I just can't see it.

I think the way forward is to enjoy the plants for what they are, growing specimens with many different characteristics. Maybe one day I'll get to open a banana sanctuary in the Canary Islands for instance, much as Joachim is doing down in Brazil.:ha:

Dalmatiansoap
08-24-2010, 04:14 AM
In my case this would be:
1. Dhusray
2. Hajray
3. Helens

BB73
08-24-2010, 04:46 AM
It's still two weeks untill my Hajaray will arrive, but today I received my Dhusray and Malbhog. Two healthy and small pups.
(along with it came my Basjoo Sapporo)...
We'll see how they do here in my climate!

51st state
09-06-2010, 12:48 PM
"the less sikkimensis inside, the more heat will be needed"

exactly...

Chini Champa and Helens Hybrid both made it through last winter under very heavy (150mm) mulch.

By the way if you're editing the English language version of Joachim's book the photo of mine used says I'm in the USA, however thankfully I'm still in the U.K. :ha:

BB73
09-06-2010, 01:30 PM
By the way if you're editing the English language version of Joachim's book the photo of mine used says I'm in the USA, however thankfully I'm still in the U.K. :ha:

I'm editing the German version, but I think he'll have translated afterwards. I'll tell Joachim to check the picture credits.

I hope my newly arrived hill bananas will like the heat in the summer. Somewhere I read, that they can stop growing with high temperatures. Maybe, I have to buy a plot on the mountains here to grow them :-)

Richard
09-06-2010, 01:42 PM
I hope my newly arrived hill bananas will like the heat in the summer. Somewhere I read, that they can stop growing with high temperatures. Maybe, I have to buy a plot on the mountains here to grow them :-)

Keep in mind that the hills bananas of India come from an area where the record low temperature is 7.5 C (45.5 F).

BB73
09-06-2010, 01:56 PM
Keep in mind that the hills bananas of India come from an area where the record low temperature is 7.5 C (45.5 F).

I thought the low temps in that area were below freezing not above! That's what I read...?

Jack Daw
09-06-2010, 03:16 PM
I thought the low temps in that area were below freezing not above! That's what I read...?
For instance Hajaray Hybrid is said to withstand weak frosts... that's what I've read. Cesar from French south grows it too and it fruits there, even though the last winter was one of the worst.

Richard
09-06-2010, 04:40 PM
For instance Hajaray Hybrid is said to withstand weak frosts...

"Frost" is formed by sublimation at temperatures above freezing, typically in the mid to high 30's F (2 to 4 C).

The Himalayan foothills where the hills banana and Chiranjit Parmar are located is in a near tropical latitude. Dr. Parmar, in numerous conversations about plants of the area has told me that the record low temperature there at 1500 meters elevation is 45.5 F (7.5 C). The snow line is much higher, about 2100 meters.