View Full Version : Musa acuminata subsp truncata
Tog Tan
10-23-2008, 07:47 AM
Everyone knows about the Musa acuminata but the subspecies truncata is a little known form endemic to the highlands of Peninsular Malaysia.
I see the Musa acuminata subsp malaccensis everywhere I go and I was curious about the subsp truncata. Literature on it was scarce, so I took a drive to the western side of the Main Range and went up to almost 6,000ft asl. The following are my observations;
Range
They are found from about 2,500 ft asl upwards. The matured plants display a green/black pseudostem at a lower elevation. Plants from 4,000ft asl have totally black pseudostems and petioles. I know that reptiles tend to be darker in pigmentation in the highlands as to be able to absorb heat better, is it the same with this musa?
Size
The matured plants are about 12ft in pseudostem height with long narrow leaves.
Foliage
It is interesting that the subsp malaccensis have a slivery underleaf and green mid rib while the subsp truncata is a semi gloss green underneath with a red mid rib.
The young plants of the subsp truncata have very narrow and lanceolate leaf whereas the subsp malaccensis young have broad oval leaves. Interesting!
Note the red mid rib and glossy undersurface.
<a href=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14117><img src=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=14117&size=1 border=0></a>
Leaf upper surface is matte with very slight wax.
<a href=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14116><img src=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=14116&size=1 border=0></a>
A clump growing at 5,000+ft asl
<a href=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14101><img src=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=14101&size=1 border=0></a>
I had no luck in locating any flowering or fruiting plants. I will go again on another time as I want to get the seeds.
Please check my photo gallery for more pix of this plant.
Raules
10-23-2008, 08:24 PM
Hello Tog! Very interesting information. Musa acuminata happen: Musa acuminata ssp. acuminata Musa acuminata ssp. alasensis Musa acuminata ssp. banskii Musa acuminata ssp. bantamensis Musa acuminata ssp. breviformis Musa acuminata ssp. burmannicoides (= Calcutta 4: Referenz specie INIBAP) Musa acuminata ssp. burmannica Musa acuminata ssp. cerifera Musa acuminata ssp. errans Musa acuminata ssp. halabanensis Musa acuminata var. longepetiolata Musa acuminata ssp. malaccensis Musa acuminata ssp. microcarpa Musa acuminata ssp. microcarpa Borneo Musa acuminata var. nakaii Musa acuminata var. rutifiles Musa acuminata ssp. siamea Musa acuminata ssp. truncata Musa acuminata var. sumatrana Musa acuminata var. tomentosa Musa acuminata ssp. zebrina At me grow from seeds Musa acuminata ssp. siamea, but flowerings at them yet were not. Excellent photos Musa acuminata ssp. truncata, thanks Tog! It would be desirable to see flowering and fruits Musa acuminata ssp. truncata, you have such photos? Tog, I think to you it is necessary to place this information in Wiki, it very interesting with good photos.
Chironex
10-23-2008, 11:35 PM
Hello Tog! Very interesting information. Musa acuminata happen: Musa acuminata ssp. acuminata Musa acuminata ssp. alasensis Musa acuminata ssp. banskii Musa acuminata ssp. bantamensis Musa acuminata ssp. breviformis Musa acuminata ssp. burmannicoides (= Calcutta 4: Referenz specie INIBAP) Musa acuminata ssp. burmannica Musa acuminata ssp. cerifera Musa acuminata ssp. errans Musa acuminata ssp. halabanensis Musa acuminata var. longepetiolata Musa acuminata ssp. malaccensis Musa acuminata ssp. microcarpa Musa acuminata ssp. microcarpa Borneo Musa acuminata var. nakaii Musa acuminata var. rutifiles Musa acuminata ssp. siamea Musa acuminata ssp. truncata Musa acuminata var. sumatrana Musa acuminata var. tomentosa Musa acuminata ssp. zebrina At me grow from seeds Musa acuminata ssp. siamea, but flowerings at them yet were not. Excellent photos Musa acuminata ssp. truncata, thanks Tog! It would be desirable to see flowering and fruits Musa acuminata ssp. truncata, you have such photos? Tog, I think to you it is necessary to place this information in Wiki, it very interesting with good photos.
Kinda reminds me of reading all of the "begats" in the Bible. :ukkibannana:
Tog Tan
10-24-2008, 04:42 AM
Kinda reminds me of reading all of the "begats" in the Bible. :ukkibannana:
Haha... Scot.. that's a good one!
Yep, Musa acuminanta is sure one heck of a complex. Some experts stop at 6 subsp but the list can go on depending on who's talking about what. Obviously Andrei is quite a serious follower of this group.
I did this checking because I was kinda frustrated that I do not know the wild Musa of M'sia. Since I started, I am not going to stop... Next, I am onto your current fav, Musa gracilis. It is a common plant on the East side of the peninsular and I have already made calls to get some specimens from different localities. I am just too lazy to drive some 300 miles to see it. The cousin to this is the Musa violascens which is on the West side where I am located. I called my collector and he said he will get me some specimens when the rain ease off. It's raining like hell here now. It's about 2hrs drive so I will probably go and get some photos ensitu and if luck would have it, seeds. These 2 are the lesser known Callimusa and not popular as they are not of food value to the locals. Scot, I will keep you updated of your fav. Maybe you want a M violascens to complete your collection? Haha..
Andrei, thank you for your comments. I will go back another time to get photos of the M a truncata in flower/fruit. The other M/a is the subsp siamea which is found in the extreme north.
I will also try to look for the natural hybrid of the M/a subsp malaccensisX M/a subsp truncata since their range overlap. It will be interesting to see which taxa has the better morphological influence.
Ok... I have to stop here as it can get very boring and confusing with all this "begatting..." as Scot calls it... Haha...
Raules
10-24-2008, 05:42 AM
Tog, thanks, I will necessarily watch a theme and to expect a photo of flowering of these wild versions. On the Internet there are not enough information and a photo of wild versions Musa acuminata, as well as Musa Itinerans. The new information on wild kinds will be very interesting for looking. Tog, we will expect a photo of a flower and fruit, whenever possible the big photos (size) and a photo in jungle. Good luck in researches!
Great post Tog. Interesting observation about the reptiles at higher altitude exhibiting darker color for heat retention. The photos in your gallery have me jealous in cold New Jersey about now. It would be nice to climb nearby mountains on a tropical botanic expidition whenever I had time.
Tog Tan
10-24-2008, 10:10 AM
Great post Tog. Interesting observation about the reptiles at higher altitude exhibiting darker color for heat retention. The photos in your gallery have me jealous in cold New Jersey about now. It would be nice to climb nearby mountains on a tropical botanic expidition whenever I had time.
Thanks Bob. About the reptiles, that used to be one of my main business in supplying live specimens to zoos and research. Quite a few species evolved to such a condition like the Boelon's python from PNG which is found at and above 10.000+ft asl. If you are ever in this region do come by and I can take you around looking at plants and such. Highlands are boring with basically, ferns, gingers and bamboos. Foothills are the greatest with high diversity especially in the southern region where it is generally wetter.
I wanted to highlight the Musa acuminata because it is the main progenitor of edible bananas and it looks like we have taken it for granted(especially me!). I will do another post soon of the Musa acuminata subsp malaccensis and show that it is actually quite a pretty plant which is worth cultivating. Though seeded, its fruits are very sweet and flavorful and the locals use it to make banana cakes. Will update soon.
Chironex
10-24-2008, 04:01 PM
Tog, I am always interested in rare forms of bananas. Especially wild bananas, Australimusa, Callimusa and Rhodochlamys - crosses, hybrids, whatever it is.
I want to find some of the rarer forms and TC them to find out what media works best. This will make them more available to our members and we can perpetuate the rare forms to help avoid extinction and perhaps make new crosses. Gabe is doing a lot of research on Eumusa-Rhodochlamys breeding and I would like to research crosses of Callimusa and Australimusa. Wish I could figure out how Eumusa crosses with Australimusa - mother nature has her secrets...
So, keep me posted as to what you find. Thank you!!!
Tog Tan
10-24-2008, 04:35 PM
Yo Scot, I will do what I can to fuel your fire... I am getting my collectors over East M'sia(Borneo) to get the new Callimusa spp there. There are quite a few new discoveries. The only problem here is, when I get them, I can only ID them by their locality until they flower. Personally, I tend to like the Callimusa's. I even got my chaps in Thailand to check out the new Rhodoclamys in the Indo Chine region. On top of this, I ordered the complete collection of cultivars and species from one of the university's propagation centre. Howzat for crazy? By the line 'collectors', there are two types used by me - the good guys, ie the academics, and the bad guys, you know bad guys! Haha.. I have been in the plant trade for rare stuff for quite a while now so it is quite easy to source stuff, all you gotta to is to pay! Sure, definitely I will keep you posted. See what the .org did to me... from a decent plant guy, I have gone truly Bananas!!! Jarred...you are to be held 100% responsible...
Thanks Tog, may take you up on that some day! Next trip is to Africa though. I want to hunt a cape buffalo before I get too old. (48 and aging fast!!!!) Looking forward to update , and pics.
bigdog
10-25-2008, 09:20 AM
Hey Tog, thanks for the pictures! I got to see lots of Musa acuminata supsp. siamea in Thailand (pics in my gallery), but that was about it for native species that I saw there. Interesting about the black pseudostems from higher elevations, and your theory makes sense. I listened to a talk from Dr. Sandy Echternacht, UT's herpetologist (well, he's a professor in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, but Herpetology is his field). He talked about black coloration on reptiles on some islands in the Carribean, and how it varied within the same species from island to island. I don't remember most of the seminar though...it was a seminar, lol. He has a bunch of articles published, I'm sure if someone was interested they could find them on Google Scholar or another scholarly search engine.
I know that there are some high elevation M. acuminata supsp. siamea in Northern Thailand somewhere, I saw it in a collection report on the INIBAP site once. I'd be interested if they had some exceptional cold-hardiness. Keep us updated! Thanks,
Frank
Tog Tan
10-25-2008, 10:24 AM
Yo Frank, coming back to the melanism of the pseudostem, I am very curious and interested in the following;
1. As they have been at a higher altitude, are they genectically 'fixed' in its coloration?
2. When they are being grown at almost at sea level will the seedlings I collected at 4,000 ft asl become greener?
3. Will the future pups in time revert to green?
I cannot find any literature on this subsp as it has hardly been experimented as a food cultivar since the indegenous people (aborigines) in M'sia are not found in the highlands. They populate the foothills and lowlands where M/a subsp malaccensis is abundant.
Regarding whether they can be cold hardy, the highlands here record at 60F or so but... extremely humid..that is wet! I didn't post any pix of them in their habitat as it was very misty and all my shots came out bad. It was quite a sight to see them grow amongst the tree ferns, Cyathea contaminans. So unless where you are is wet which is essential to them I think it may be a problem.
Since I got the plants back, I have been keeping them very moist by watering them at least 3 - 4 times a day. The smallest plant's leaves all dehydrated by the 2nd day even though my place is very humid. I will keep them with me for another month or so until they shoot new leaves and I will take them to my nursery which is in a conducive jungle like environment. Interesting, ha?
One thing I forgot to add, they are not stout plants like the M balbisiana or M itnerans, they are quite wily with a diameter of only about 12 in plus.
bigdog
10-26-2008, 07:23 PM
Tog, I wish I had some definitive answers to your questions, but I don't. I can only speculate! I would think that they would hold their color at lower elevations though, and that it probably is a genotype that is causing the black coloration, and not an environmental condition. Who knows though!
I didn't figure that the supsp. truncata would be cold-hardy...I was referring to the subsp. siamea in N. Thailand. You never know until you try it though. Some bananas from very warm places have more cold tolerance than one would think.
Tog Tan
10-27-2008, 04:51 AM
Hi Frank,
Tog, I wish I had some definitive answers to your questions, but I don't. I can only speculate! I would think that they would hold their color at lower elevations though, and that it probably is a genotype that is causing the black coloration, and not an environmental condition. Who knows though!
On the genotype part, it should hold the melanism but... if you refer to my initial post, plants found at 2,500 ft asl are not solid black. To me, 'why not'?? Higher altitude, solid black. Hmmm... This was what I was getting at. Are we having a chameleon here? Haha..
Gabe, I am sure you are watching from the sidelines, any input guru?
I didn't figure that the supsp. truncata would be cold-hardy...I was referring to the subsp. siamea in N. Thailand. You never know until you try it though. Some bananas from very warm places have more cold tolerance than one would think.
Sorry for my bad phrasing, I was refering the M/a 's condition being similar to N Thailand. Thai mountains are cold though, still moist and their winter rains are much worse than here. Probably, the M/a subsp siamea is more tolerant to a range of conditions since they are found at the Northern edge of Thailand and all the way to Northern M'sia.
Simply Bananas
10-27-2008, 06:42 AM
I took these pics last summer in the lowlands of Caribbean Costa Rica(near Manzanillo).
These are not likely M. acuminata, however the owner of an organic farm said that he got the plants from the high Mountains of central CR.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/porkpi/BlackWideshot.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y274/porkpi/Blackpstems.jpg
Tog Tan
10-27-2008, 12:17 PM
Thanks porkpi, for the interesting pix, highland plants, black pseudostems... hmm... you got me here...
Being I am from the other side of the world, where is CR?
Tog
Simply Bananas
10-27-2008, 01:09 PM
CR=Costa Rica--central America--
Chironex
10-27-2008, 03:20 PM
Anyone have any ideas about what type these may be from Costa Rica? The coloration is stunning.
Raules
10-27-2008, 11:39 PM
I am very surprised! These plants are outwardly very similar. Beautiful plants! It seems to me, a unique way to learn Musa acuminata ssp. truncata it or not to wait flowerings of plants. And then to compare inflorescences and fruit.
Mark Hall
12-03-2008, 04:45 AM
I have just taken 2 variegated pups from my variegated Acuminata SSp.
Not sure what type of SSp it is as it was a Thai Ebay Plant. The parent has lost most of the variegation now. I was supprised to get the first two pups off and have them both be variegated:woohoonaner:
A few pictures of the little fellas are in my Gallery .
Tog Tan
12-03-2008, 05:39 AM
Hi Mark,
Man, first, it's Frank getting the variegated seedling from Thailand and now it's you. You guys sure know how to make me jealous!:ha:
His seed source was from Thailand too. I think it is probably the M/a subsp siamea cos the M/a subsp malaccensis don't get as far as Bkk. It is found throughout M'sia to Southern Thailand.
I went to South Thailand last month to look for the M/a subsp siamea but found only the M/a subsp malaccensis. The only difference between the Thai and the M'sian form is the color of the flower when I checked with Frank. The M'sian form is crimson in color whereas the Thai is bright red.:drum:
Mark Hall
12-03-2008, 06:03 AM
Tog, I have had the plant for just under a year now. I did wonder if it was Siamea. When it came it had a couple of eyes just showing on the corm. Never had many roots either and I was worried that along with a few other Thai bananas that i had bought it would end up in the great banana plantation in the sky.
Tog Tan
12-03-2008, 06:36 AM
Mark,
I think the only way to figure it out is to wait for it to flower. The M/a subsp siamea has a purplish flower with a yellowish tip. The M'sian form is crimson in color without the yellow tip. Frank has some nice pix of it in his earlier post. If we try to be smart and look at the physical aspect of the plant we are only kidding ourselves cos this guy is so darn variable. Up till today I am still amazed by the different forms of the M/a subsp malaccensis in the jungle and countryside. By the way, this species is so common here that it is even found right in the centre of the city growing without a care to the traffic around them! This is because the Malays here are very fond of 'naners and that the govt officials tolerate it as long as it is not untidy.:drum:
Mark Hall
12-03-2008, 09:03 AM
Tog, We will be in for a long wait for mine to flower with the temps we get here.
I started to look through Franks Galley again but it just Depresses me:ha: He has so many plants that I want.
Chironex
12-03-2008, 04:41 PM
Yo Tog, Talk about making someone jealous...I just saw your 96 corms and 50 more coming....Sheesh!!!!
I have banana envy real bad.
bigdog
12-03-2008, 07:29 PM
I started to look through Franks Galley again but it just Depresses me:ha: He has so many plants that I want.
That's funny, Mark...I think the same thing when I look through your gallery, LOL!
:bananas_b
Raules
12-04-2008, 12:24 AM
Hi Tog! You can show photos wild M/a subsp malaccensis, it would be desirable to look. Tell this beautiful small plant which gives many fruit. It is good that bananas grow at you in a city, it is very beautiful.:bananas_b:0517:
Tog Tan
12-04-2008, 02:59 AM
Hi Andrei,
I am still waiting for some of the M/a subsp malaccensis photos to be done. After that I will post a new thread on this with as many photos as I can. Yes, it has many slim fruits which is nothing but seeds. I counted about 110 sds in each fruit.
By the way one of the M/a subsp truncata seedlings I have taken back has red mottling on all its new leaves. It is very beautiful now and I hope the color will stay!:ha:
Raules
12-04-2008, 09:40 PM
Perfectly Tog! :drum:I will watch attentively all threads. Very interesting theme, I like wild versions.:0517:
Tog Tan
12-12-2008, 05:30 AM
<a href=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14101><img src=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=14783 border=0></a>
Since I got this seedling late Oct, it has been putting out leaves with heavy red mottling. I wonder if it is the change from the cooler highland temp to warmer lowland temp that's making this happen. The other 2 seedlings remained the same. Whatever, I just hope the color stays!:drum:
Chironex
12-12-2008, 07:09 PM
Nice looking banana, of course, now I have to get one.
MediaHound
12-12-2008, 07:19 PM
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=14783 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14101)
Since I got this seedling late Oct, it has been putting out leaves with heavy red mottling. I wonder if it is the change from the cooler highland temp to warmer lowland temp that's making this happen. The other 2 seedlings remained the same. Whatever, I just hope the color stays!:drum:
Hope it stays like that but... :)
:waving:
Whats the underside look like?
MediaHound
12-12-2008, 07:21 PM
Nevermind, found it in your gallery! This is it, yes?
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=14117&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14117&ppuser=3823)
Link to the album:
Banana Gallery - Tog Tan Album (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=1059&ppuser=3823)
Tog Tan
12-13-2008, 03:14 AM
Yep Jarred, that's the underside of the leaf. How come you ask this question?
The interesting thing is that the underside of the M/a ssp truncata is totally different from the M/a ssp malaccensis.
Underside Leaf differences
M/a ssp truncata - Semi-gloss with red mid rib
M/a ssp malaccensis - Glaucous waxy with yellowish mid rib
I think the M/a ssp truncata is hardly found in cultivation because it is endemic to the Central highlands of Peninsular M'sia. Also, as far as I have checked it hasn't been used in the cultivar program. Another thing is, it is genetically different from the M/a ssp malaccensis. The M/a ssp microcarpa and even the M/a ssp sumatrana/zebrina were used in cultivar development but not this one. It seems like a poorly neglected living thing!
Cheers:0517:
Tog Tan
12-19-2008, 10:53 AM
Since my initial posting of this thread, I was real curious in photographing the M/a ssp truncata with fruits and bud. I finally did it today by taking a 3 hr drive to the Northern part of the central highlands. Here the plants are much darker in pigmentation. I found 3 plts with fruits and only shown one as they are all the same. Apparently according to the locals, this plant only fruit when it is big - 10+ft - p/stem height.
I am so suprised that the color of the bud is so dark. Its lowland ssp malaccensis is a beautiful carmine red.
<a href=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14849><img src=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=14850 border=0></a>
This pix is typical of the plants found here. Practically solid black semi gloss p/stem and petioles.
<a href=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14849><img src=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=14849&size=1 border=0></a>
bigdog
12-19-2008, 03:44 PM
Wow! What a beautiful plant, Tog! That ones' a keeper. :0517:
Raules
12-20-2008, 02:46 AM
Greetings Tog! Thanks for beautiful photos! Very interesting and beautiful version, completely black Psudostem and set of fruit. It seems to me the highest version from Musa acuminata. Tog and Musa acuminata ssp. microcarpa and Musa acuminata ssp. malaccensis have flowering this hour?
Tog Tan
12-20-2008, 03:18 AM
Hi Andrei,
As far as I know M/a ssp malaccensis flower all year round. I don't know about the M/a ssp microcarpa as it is not from my area. I suppose it only flowers when it gets real big like the M/a ssp truncata. I figure due to the cold, the highland subsp take a longer time grow. This was confirmed by the people at the Central highlands that M/a ssp truncata grows very big and takes a long time to flower.
Here, at the lowlands, M/a ssp malaccensis can even flower at about 7ft p/stem height and a diameter of even 4-5 inches.
Cheers.:drum:
Raules
12-20-2008, 11:40 PM
Greetings Tog! I simply thought that these kinds grow in your district. On the Internet there is not enough photo of the given kinds, and as the information on them. About M/a ssp truncata I have learnt and have seen from your theme. It seems to me at you there is a possibility to receive a new kind of a banana, crossing for example M/a ssp truncata and Musa balbisiana or to any other kind. How you think of it? It seems to me it is the big work. Tog, and you have photo of a beautiful site of a rainforest or a landscape in which wild bananas and palm trees, trees are visible. It would be desirable to put such on a desktop, for the computer. All the best! Andrey.:03:
lorax
12-26-2008, 10:17 AM
...melanism of the pseudostem, I am very curious and interested in the following;
1. As they have been at a higher altitude, are they genectically 'fixed' in its coloration?
2. When they are being grown at almost at sea level will the seedlings I collected at 4,000 ft asl become greener?
3. Will the future pups in time revert to green?
Tog, I can't speak to the M. acuminata situation, but here's what I've noticed with Ensete ventricosum.
I'll remind you that I live at about 10,000 feet asl. Here, E. ventricosum gets slightly stunted by the altitude and has an almost black psuedotrunk on the outer layer. I took pups off of an impressive mother plant and traded them for a new cultivar of red plantains, with a friend who lives on the beach, let's say 0 feet asl. The pups appeared to have the melanism when I separated them. They've grown up now, and they're almost solid green on the trunks; additionally they're not stunted the way that the mother was.
So I'd conclude that for Ensete at least, the melanism is a reaction to conditions.
Tog Tan
12-26-2008, 10:44 AM
Lorax, thanks for the input. One more situation I would like to add is that I visited a wild orchid collector friend who lives at 6,000 asl and he has a clump of Musa gracilis which he collected from about 1,000 ft asl and kept for about 6 yrs. Know what? Their p-stem were also black! SO, this in a way adds weight to my theory about 'naners turning melanistic to conserve heat. Hope some super expert can verify this.
The M/a ssp truncata pups which I took down to my home which is almost sea level hasn't gone back black on their p-stem.
By the way, pups on your E-v? Did it pup naturally or was it the threat of the cold made it pup? Can you post pix of the mother plant in black p-stem and with pups? This I gotta see.
Thanks:02:
lorax
12-26-2008, 11:00 AM
It was threat of cold, I think... We had a stretch of nights where it went down to about 5 C, and when it warmed up again, pups started. I'll see if I still have photos of the black-stemmed mother and pups; I lost a lot in a computer crash right after that time, and I can't remember if I had archived them or not...
HOWEVER. If I did lose my pics of the black ventricosum, I can go to the Quito Botanical Gardens and take pics of theirs. Mine was a seedling of one of their gate plants.
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