View Full Version : Banana Primer with Pix
pitangadiego
08-04-2008, 01:36 PM
http://webebananas.com/culture.html
I finally have my banana seminar from last year roughed in with the pictures from the presentation. I hope to add quite a bit of material this fall, after fig season is over. This was a 50 minute presentation, so couldn't get to in depth - thus the need to add some additional material when I get time.
Enjoy.
momoese
08-04-2008, 02:11 PM
Nice job Jon! Thanks for sharing that.
buzzwinder
08-04-2008, 02:21 PM
Thanks, Good Job, :bananas_b
stumpy4700
08-04-2008, 02:45 PM
Great presentation...Thanks:goteam:
Richard
08-04-2008, 03:51 PM
Jon, it just keeps on improving!
For those of you who haven't had the pleasure, Jon is an excellent conference speaker. His talk this year at the Festival of Fruit 2008 (http://festivaloffruit.org/) will be worth the price of admission.
Matt in SD
08-04-2008, 11:05 PM
Thanks for posting that. I like the "keep it simple" style. It's also nice to see some of the things I've learned myself confirmed by a very experienced grower...scissors for pruning, cutting pups with minimal digging around the parent.
I'm curious about propping. How often do you find plants fall over if they are not propped? I had a couple fall over before I figured out how to get the pups off without cutting the roots of the mother (narrow shovel, sever the attachment and pull it out). But since then none have actually fallen. Maybe because I don't get much wind? Is the prop just to prevent falling or does it improve the ripening time or something?
Matt
Chironex
08-05-2008, 01:43 AM
That was very interesting. Thank you for your contribution, I learned some things from it.
musa_monkey
08-05-2008, 04:38 AM
Excellent primer, many thanks for posting it.
CookieCows
08-05-2008, 06:35 AM
Thank you so much!
Deb
Dean W.
08-05-2008, 09:01 AM
Great!
pitangadiego
08-05-2008, 09:03 AM
Propping is from the realm of physics and structural engineering. Different plants have different thicknesses (some are very slender, some quite fat). Also depending on the style (mostly width) of the leaf stem (the part that forms the pseudostem) the truniks are stronger or weaker. When you take something long, and slender and subject it to wind, it can bend or break. The most extreme example is hurricane damage (even to thick and strong things). The other issue is hanging a large weight on the end of a long object (pole, etc.). Pickup a 10 lb sack of sugar with y9ur hands, and then pick it up on the end of a fishing pole. Big difference. So with bananas: when you hang a large weight on the end of a slender pole (trunk) you have tremendous leverage which will act to bend of break your pole (trunk). (Now put that weight on a long trunk and put it in the wind at the same time). The point of the prop is to carry the wieght of the bananas, rather than allowing the weak banana trunk to carry the weight. You are not propping the trunk, but the weight of the bananas. Sort of like you "helping" your small child to carry something. You are doing the work, and he is holding onto the handle, thinking that he is actually carrying the load.
Bananaman88
08-05-2008, 09:31 AM
Awesome, Jon! Great photos and lots of good information. Thanks for sharing.
mskitty38583
08-05-2008, 11:00 AM
10' from the plant...geesh im glad i didnt plant my nanas where i was going to! right next to my water meter. lol. that was awesome!!!! thank you for posting that it was great and i learned a lot too! btw im still looking out my window and i dont see any plant sale anywhere! LOL!!!
pitangadiego
08-05-2008, 10:22 PM
I'm looking out my window and definitely seeing a plant sale. Feel free to visit on Saturday. ;-))))
Taylor
08-05-2008, 10:24 PM
How do we order from you? (Been wondering for quite a while...guess I just ask via email?)
pitangadiego
08-06-2008, 01:36 PM
E-mail from Encanto Farms Nursery (http://encantofarms.com)
harveyc
08-06-2008, 02:19 PM
I suggest going in person. Jon's wife is also pleasant and a very supportive/understanding person of his passion for bananas (and figs, etc.). Jon has big pups!
mskitty38583
08-06-2008, 02:25 PM
E-mail from Encanto Farms Nursery (http://encantofarms.com)
you sell your nanas??????? ok i get it....or hopefully soon ill get it. lol! thank you for the question taylor! i was wondering back last winter and never stopped to ask. duh had a nana moment.:ha:would love to visit...i havent seen the big sd since 1985.
Dean W.
08-06-2008, 02:29 PM
It would be great to visit. The closest I've been is LA.
pitangadiego
08-06-2008, 11:59 PM
mskitty, you are way overdue a visit.
It is pretty tough, having to live in San Diego, and all. My friends in the colder climates only have to garden six months of the year. And then they have six months off in the winter. Nobody in Michigan has to worry about watering plants in January, or even mowing the lawn (I don't have any, unless you count the sugar cane as a grass (it is), and you have a very big lawn mower).
San Diego has so many wonderful things to see, do, enjoy; an extremely varied commercial fruit, plant, and nursery industry (Cactus to Macadamias, Dragon Fruit to Figs, almost anything grown anywhere in the world).
Fall is a fabulous time to visit, when the weather is cooler, the Santa Ana winds make the sky sparkle, and rain almost never, ever spoils you ability to go, see and do anything your heart desires.
Did I mention the World Famous Zoo, Sea World, surfing, breweries, Quail Gardens, Miramar Air show...
Visitors are always welcome.
harveyc
08-07-2008, 12:36 AM
Abundant irrigation water??? ;)
I pumped about 29,000,000 gallons last week at a cost of about $340. :)
No, that was not for my banana patch!
mskitty38583
08-07-2008, 10:21 AM
my dad was stationed at coronado. we lived in military housing in murphy canyon. i could look out my bedroom window and see jack murphy stadium.( i remember when the beach boys played there) i know the area well. lol. been to sea world, and the san diego zoo....thats where i ment chester...he is mised dearly! knotts berry farm...and of course la jolla. if there is a beach in the world to miss its there. i went to school in east side s.d. cant remember the name of the school....balboa ave is one of the prettiest places ive seeen the euclaptist trees are just beautiful in the spring. oh so many memories....its the first place i ever ditched school at and the day i did the mcdonalds we were at ( and had just left) got hit by rival gangs. that showed me never to ditch school again. lol. but the think i thing i miss the most about s.d. is........ putt- putt. i love it!
microfarmer
08-07-2008, 06:35 PM
Thank you Jon. I like the K.I.S.S. format too. The pics are wonderful. It feels like I'm getting to walk through your gardens. I have a long way to go before I get to 100 varieties of bananas.
I would love to visit, but will have to wait for next year. I just blew my wad on a trip to the White Mountain High Altitude Research Station for their open house.
I'll have to start planning the trip to San Diego, and saving money for the bananas I'll be buying, now...
See you next year!:ha:
magicgreen
08-08-2008, 01:54 AM
That was GREAT Jon!!!
It was simple and sweet!
I don't know how I missed this post!:waving:
Really enjoyed it; and you "tweaked" some areas about the banana I needed to know!!
Thanks alot!!!! Lynn...
WOW! I'm a total newbie and that was AWESOME! I needed just that. I feel kinda banana smarter now. :)
Can I ask a ?...on your presentation please? It says...
4.
Flowering and Harvest
and then under this you have a close up picture of a flower with bananas the flower is red very red underneath and fuzzy on the top and more maroon color. That is an exact picture of my tree right now and I have no idea what kind it is. It is in my gallery.
What kind of banana tree is that???
pitangadiego
08-08-2008, 01:32 PM
Jen, I'd have to check. Most flowers look similar, but there are differences. The greater difference is in the male flowers, which come later, and which can be used to identify varieties sort of like the colors and feathers on birds.
Gotcha. I guess I will wait and see. Thanks. This is all totally new to me. I also sent an email to encanto farms...is that you? I am very close to San Diego and was wondering if they have an on site nursery or if it just online.
Thanks for the quick reply and the good info. I will wait for the flower to finish blooming and post some more pictures for you Banana gurus to figure out.
Jen
Rmplmnz
08-09-2008, 10:18 PM
Sounds awesome..if only I had known you before my brother retired from the Navy (last 4 years stationed at El Centro NAS).
Just curious..what do you do with all the fruit?
We sell Carambolas and a few other things to a local Asian market.
Bananas we usually dehydrate what we can not eat/give away fresh.
Figs are awesome (the FL nematodes love them as well..lol).
Chris
mskitty, you are way overdue a visit.
It is pretty tough, having to live in San Diego, and all. My friends in the colder climates only have to garden six months of the year. And then they have six months off in the winter. Nobody in Michigan has to worry about watering plants in January, or even mowing the lawn (I don't have any, unless you count the sugar cane as a grass (it is), and you have a very big lawn mower).
San Diego has so many wonderful things to see, do, enjoy; an extremely varied commercial fruit, plant, and nursery industry (Cactus to Macadamias, Dragon Fruit to Figs, almost anything grown anywhere in the world).
Fall is a fabulous time to visit, when the weather is cooler, the Santa Ana winds make the sky sparkle, and rain almost never, ever spoils you ability to go, see and do anything your heart desires.
Did I mention the World Famous Zoo, Sea World, surfing, breweries, Quail Gardens, Miramar Air show...
Visitors are always welcome.
harveyc
08-09-2008, 11:12 PM
I've sampled bananas each time I visited Jon. I think he gets lots of company! ;)
Sounds awesome..if only I had known you before my brother retired from the Navy (last 4 years stationed at El Centro NAS).
Just curious..what do you do with all the fruit?
We sell Carambolas and a few other things to a local Asian market.
Bananas we usually dehydrate what we can not eat/give away fresh.
Figs are awesome (the FL nematodes love them as well..lol).
Chris
pitangadiego
08-09-2008, 11:29 PM
Eat what you can, share the rest. There is banana bread, banan cream pie, banana splits, etc. when it is necessary to transcend peel and eat.
microfarmer
08-11-2008, 04:00 PM
Eat what you can, share the rest.
Eat what you can, and what you can't, you can...
(as in preserve :ha:).
mskitty38583
08-11-2008, 08:56 PM
slice the nanas dip them in honey and dehydrate for nana chips.
pitangadiego
08-12-2008, 01:12 PM
That sounds like more work than peel and eat.
harveyc
08-12-2008, 01:34 PM
Jon, when you find the time, I think it would be helpful to expand comments on pup removal. I'm especially having a problem what to do when a plant is starting to fruit and ends up with pups circling the entire plant with four or so pups. For instance, right now my Dwarf Brazilian has an older pup as tall as the main plant which bloomed 5-6 weeks ago and then three more pups which came up 4-8 weeks ago. I'd like to keep the older one and one of the new ones where they are at, but am afraid of disturbing the main plant too much and delaying maturation of the fruit. On the other hand, the fruit probably won't ripen until November and the pups will have slowed down by then and transplanting them into the ground in cooler weather could be risky. Is it better to just remove one pup now, let the roots of the main plant grow back for a few weeks, and then remove another?
My hesitation in pup removal has sometimes lead to a mess with a mat having way too many pups. When they are too large, am I better off just whacking (a term first used here by Jarred, if I'm not mistaken) them back.
Do pups provide any food for the main corm or does it just go the other direction? I know you've left old fruited plants in a mat for an extended period, figuring it provides food for the mat. I'm just wondering if there is any significant reason for not removing all pups if you want to (i.e., I'd like to get several mats of Dwarf Brazilian going).
Thanks,
Harvey
Rmplmnz
08-12-2008, 01:34 PM
That sounds like more work than peel and eat.
Ha ha..yep...peel and eat is always best.
When we have eaten/shared all we can we cut them in half length wise (mostly the smaller bananas..Saba, various lady finger, etc.,) and throw them in the dehydrator (fast and easy).
Rmplmnz
08-12-2008, 01:36 PM
Jon, when you find the time, I think it would be helpful to expand comments on pup removal. I'm especially having a problem what to do when a plant is starting to fruit and ends up with pups circling the entire plant with four or so pups. For instance, right now my Dwarf Brazilian has an older pup as tall as the main plant which bloomed 5-6 weeks ago and then three more pups which came up 4-8 weeks ago. I'd like to keep the older one and one of the new ones where they are at, but am afraid of disturbing the main plant too much and delaying maturation of the fruit. On the other hand, the fruit probably won't ripen until November and the pups will have slowed down by then and transplanting them into the ground in cooler weather could be risky. Is it better to just remove one pup now, let the roots of the main plant grow back for a few weeks, and then remove another?
My hesitation in pup removal has sometimes lead to a mess with a mat having way too many pups. When they are too large, am I better off just whacking (a term first used here by Jarred, if I'm not mistaken) them back.
Do pups provide any food for the main corm or does it just go the other direction? I know you've left old fruited plants in a mat for an extended period, figuring it provides food for the mat. I'm just wondering if there is any significant reason for not removing all pups if you want to (i.e., I'd like to get several mats of Dwarf Brazilian going).
Thanks,
Harvey
I just cut the pups off right below ground level.
microfarmer
08-12-2008, 01:39 PM
That sounds like more work than peel and eat.
Yep, a middle step called processing....:ha:
mskitty38583
08-12-2008, 03:03 PM
it is a little work but it is well worth it! i made 4 loaves of nana bread last night and ohhhh it was so good.
Rmplmnz
08-12-2008, 03:21 PM
it is a little work but it is well worth it! i made 4 loaves of nana bread last night and ohhhh it was so good.
4 loaves..hmmnnnn..sounds like enough to share:woohoonaner::woohoonaner:
When is the party?
Anyone ever make banana wine (other than Chong...I am sure..lol)?
microfarmer
08-12-2008, 04:07 PM
4 loaves..hmmnnnn..sounds like enough to share
It sounds like she was planning to share when she made so many:03:
My bananas aren't ready for goodies yet, but I just picked the last of my peaches, and practiced my baking skills on a nice Piled High Peach Pie, Peach Cobbler, and Almond Peach Struesel Dessert. All 3 recipes are from Epicurious.com...in case your wondering...
Anyone ever make banana wine (other than Chong...I am sure..lol)?
JoeReal makes some wonderful banana wine, if I recall correctly.
pitangadiego
08-12-2008, 10:57 PM
Harvey,
Here are the criteria and issues to consider and balance. Some things reflect the biology of the banana plant, others the realities of our non-tropical climate.
1) Each variety is different, and responds to stress differently. Cavendish varieties seem to take it least well, in my experience. So you may need to experiment a little with your particular variety to see what is optimal or doable. "Your result may vary. Details in store"
2) Taking pups near, during, or just after flowering usually stresses the plant and reduces fruit quantity and/or size. Obviously, after flowering, quantity is already determined, but size and survivability are still issues. Fruit was the goal, in the first place, so doing something which upsets that is counterproductive.
3) Taking pups to late in the season, without sufficient warm weather for them to re-establish leads to a significantly higher death rate. Plants in pots seem to take cold less well than plants in ground. So, removing pups in the late Fall is generally not a good idea. Southern Florida may be a different story, but when I checked, Isleton wasn't down there. ;-)) If you plant is dormant, or significantly slowed in it's growth rate, it is slow to heal the cut surfaces and slow to heal broken/damaged roots, and slow to establish new roots. So overwatering becomes a very easy trap to fall into, and then you have a rotted corm/pup.
4) Plants/Pups left to over winter in the ground seem to use the time to grow roots, making them more difficult to dig in the Spring. I have had Goldfinger pups that weren't even 6" tall, that wouldn't fit n a 5 gallon pot, because of the root mass.
5) Banana roots can extend 10' or more, but generally seem to occupy about a 10-12' diameter circle. The more trunks/plants in the "mat" the more the root resources are shared. That translates into smaller/fewer fruit.
6) Killing extra pups by cutting them flush with the ground, and maybe even digging out the growing point (can't remember the name for that - maybe meristem?) is a doable strategy, if necessary to thin the "mat" without disturbing the roots.
7) Some plants NEED pups for stability. Monthan rapidly looses root mass after flowering, and if not anchored by a couple pups, will just fall over.
8) Some varieties pup when the parent plant is still quite short. 3" pups on African Rhino Horn already had pups and "grandpups" (pups on the pups) on them, when removed.
9) Some varieties, such as African Rhino Horn and Popo'ulu have many pups (my first ARH had 50+) but they do not really get much above a few inches tall, until the parent flowers, and then there are many pups all at once. That makes staggered removal difficult.
10) Staggering pup removal over several weeks probably helps. My EleEle died, taking 6 pups with it within a few weeks of removing 2 pups. Don't know that pup removal was the issue, but it was a little coincidental.
11) If you can keep a selection of pups that are about 6-9 months apart, you should have good harvests, well spread, so that you only have one bunch hanging at a time, or one almost ripe, and one just flowering. However, with "dormancy" or drastically slowed growth rates in cooler weather (called winter), it is often hard to space them that way because they may only have 6-8 months of growing weather. Part of why this is an art, not a science.
12) I leave old plants (after fruit ripens) in the mat as long as they have green leaves. My thinking is that they are not using energy to produce leaves or flowers, so all that solar panel surface (leaves) must be contributing to other plants in the "mat". I have had plants hold leaves for a year (Misi Luki, for example), while other varieties often have no leaves left, and maybe not even a viable trunk by the time the fruit ripens (Cavendish varieties in particular). Older trunks/corms also can send up pups for a couple years, depending on how well the corm lasts. My Belle has a half dozen pups on a 2 generation old corm.
13) I do not know if pups feed the parent plant, or vice versa. Obviously the parent plant feeds the pup until it develops some independent roots, but they remain connected throughout their lifespan, so there may well be a complex interaction and sharing of resources.
14) If you want to establish several mats, removing a lot of pups, knowing that it will adversely affect the parent plant is fine. You will probably defer the gratification of tasting that first bunch by 12-18 months, but in the end, you have more bananas. I have no problem with that strategy - as long as there is "informed" consent - soft the pages of small print listing all the possible bad outcomes of a surgical procedure.
15) Anything adverse - lack of water, fertilizer, sun, warmth, etc., disturbance of roots, damage to leaves, crowding, etc. affect performance (size and quantity of fruit), and this seems to be exacerbated by our temperate climate where bananas spend a significant amount of time being dormant. Continued active growth, 12 months of the year, covers a multitude of sins
harveyc
08-12-2008, 11:43 PM
Thanks a bunch, Jon! (pun intended)
That's a lengthy response and I appreciate you taking the time to explain your thoughts on the matter.
I am anxious to also taste my Dwarf Brazilian so I don't really want to damage it significantly since it did bloom at a relatively good time of year for my climate (early July). One of the newer pups is on the side of an older pup opposite of the main plant so I can probably remove it now with little impact to the current fruit since the old pup is already somewhat of a barrier. I'm hoping the old pup will flower early next summer or late next spring so it should have time to recover. By then, I can probably remove those other two pups.
My soil is fairly heavy (a silty clay loam) and I only work compost into the soil in about a three foot circle and I have not seen roots extend out anywhere near as far as what you've described. On the other hand, there are a lot of nutrients in my mineral soil so my plants still due relatively fine.
Thanks again,
Harvey
pitangadiego
08-13-2008, 10:35 PM
Seems like a reasonable strategy.
Greenie
08-14-2008, 07:07 PM
great!
DisneyButterfly1
09-24-2016, 05:39 PM
Thanks so much for all of the Super info. Fantastic Primer Jon!! Thank you for posting it!! I am very new at this so I truly appreciate your info & photos!!
DisneyButterfly1
09-24-2016, 05:43 PM
Harvey, Thanks for all the detail in your post! That is a lot of info I needed to know, since I am a beginner.
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