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Gabe15
07-21-2008, 12:59 AM
with some help from a post made by the lorax awhile ago, and some improvisation, my banana paper turned out all right! for the first batch at least... its a bit uneven in spots, but i hope to get better with successive batches.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11563&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11563&ppuser=5)

harveyc
07-21-2008, 01:12 AM
Was an innocent Siam Ruby killed in the process of this experiment????

Gabe15
07-21-2008, 01:14 AM
Was an innocent Siam Ruby killed in the process of this experiment????

haha, no, i wouldn't do that. it was a left over pseudostem from my TC experiments.

paradisi
07-21-2008, 01:23 AM
interesting

so how do you make the banana paper???

Gabe15
07-21-2008, 01:39 AM
i cut up the pseudostem into about 1cm long sections and pressure cooked them for about 30min (easier than boiling but seemed to be effective). i put them into the blender and they all quickly turned into a fine pulp, i poured the pulp on a screen and tried to get it as even as possible, then i placed a piece of foil over it and a board with some bricks on top to flatten it as it dried. it was a light brown, but since i was in experimental mode, i bleached it which made it a lot lighter, and it stayed strong enough to run thru water and get out most of the bleach after it lightened up. i then put it in the toaster oven with a tray over it to quickly dry it out again. this is just a little piece, about 5in across, but its all i had since i was just using a little pseudostem. im actually surprised at how strong it is, it feels like a decent heavy piece of craft paper. next time i want to try to make a big sheet.

hersirsmiley
07-21-2008, 09:54 AM
does it have to be psuedostem or could you use the leaves as well. if you could use most of the plant to make paper you could create a paper industry in south america and other nations that have banana crops growing. think of the benefits for poor families that could sell their paper or at least have their own paper for use in education or for letters!

Gabe15
07-22-2008, 06:08 PM
does it have to be psuedostem or could you use the leaves as well.
Im not sure how well the leaves work, my guess would be they work fine, especially mixed in with pseudostem fiber. Im hoping to try out lots of different things as I get better at it.

And I am getting better at it! On my third run of this I seem to have created something that could pass as a real piece of paper.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11654&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11654)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11655&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11655)

austinl01
07-22-2008, 06:18 PM
Wow, Gabe. That sure does look like a real sheet of paper. Great job!

momoese
07-22-2008, 07:00 PM
Nice progress!

CookieCows
07-22-2008, 07:07 PM
Now this is really cool!

buzzwinder
07-22-2008, 07:32 PM
Gabe That is really neat, about how long from start to finnish does it take, I'ld like to give it a try with my childrens help but they have an attension span smaller than a ( well thats another story for a another time :) ):bananas_b

harveyc
07-22-2008, 07:53 PM
Looks good! What changes did you make to improve the quality of the paper?

Taylor
07-22-2008, 07:58 PM
This would be the ABSOLUTE BEST thing you could do with a pseudostem of a plant after you have harvested the fruit. Or else you end up 'wasting' a lot of stem in terms of paper production.

mskitty38583
07-22-2008, 08:20 PM
gabe that is great!!!! market it to the nana org and ill buy some!

island cassie
07-22-2008, 09:01 PM
That is so cool and looks good fun - thanks for sharing the process!!

Cassie (soon to have spare p-stem!!)

Gabe15
07-23-2008, 09:12 AM
Looks good! What changes did you make to improve the quality of the paper?

Mainly in the drying process. I went out and got a screen and built a frame to use, as opposed to a mesh metal trash bin I used for the first one. Also, I come up with some different ways to get the pulp much more thin and even before it dried. I'm not sure on the best or easiest way to do any of this, seeing as I've only done it 3 times so far I'll keep on improving it until I can get something consistently high quality and easy (or just easy to replicate) to produce. So far, I have just improvised and messed around with different ideas and tools until I found the results I was looking for, but I'm sure I'll find some efficient ways to keep it even thickness and thin (which seem to be the 2 hardest things to do, but with the right technique become easy).

Gabe That is really neat, about how long from start to finnish does it take, I'ld like to give it a try with my childrens help but they have an attension span smaller than a ( well thats another story for a another time :) ):bananas_b
It took me about 45min from harvesting raw material to pouring the pulp on the rack, but the drying process can take all day or more. Making the pulp from the plant is the easiest thing to do, but making it into paper takes a bit more concentration.

Gabe15
07-23-2008, 09:23 AM
I also want to look into how acidic this paper is, and if needed (and easily possible), correct it.

jpfloors
07-23-2008, 09:49 AM
I think it'd be fun to try doing this sometime!!!

Gabe15
07-23-2008, 10:14 AM
This product has been around a long time (various paper companies already make use of the agricultural waste from banana plantations), and it was really the lorax that wrote down the basic instructions and gave me the idea to try it myself, so thank her too!



Here's how I make banana paper.

It's fairly easy if you have a mulcher, and a bit more labour intensive if you don't.

Either way, you need to chop the fibre of the stalks and leaves up fairly fine - think pieces of 1" length or less. Then put this along with enough water to more than float the fibre into a cauldron (or at least a honking big pot) and bring it to a boil, stirring constantly. I like to do this outdoors, since the smell is not the world's most appetizing.

Once it's boiled for about half an hour, take it off the fire and go in there with eggbeaters and whip it good until all of the little fibres have separated. As it cools, you'll be able to go in with your hands and help this process along. At the end you should have a pulpy slurry.

Now comes the part where you actually form up the sheets. You need screens to do this; I used to use old silkscreens, but you can just buy fine mesh and encase it in wooden frames. I make fairly large sheets all at once; if you make your own screens you can control the size of the finished paper.

Now for the really messy part - be sure to do this outdoors. Take a ladle and gently ladle the pulpy mixture onto the screens, spreading lightly and trying to make sure that you get a consistent thickness of pulp, no more than 1 milimeter (1/16th of an inch) across the entire screen. Allow this to drip off flat. I have a special table that I've made, which is just edges that I can rest the screens on, and no flat surface. My paper drips out onto the ground below it. Once it's half dry, I take fitted blocks of super-smooth wood, slot them into the screens one to each side, and press the paper under large heavy rocks. This creates a smooth and a toothed surface to the paper. It's not a necessary step, but since I use the paper for painting and sketching I like the finish.

In South Ecuador, it's so dry and windy that paper dries in one day, in the North it takes two if it doesn't rain. Once it's most of the way dry, gently peel it off of the screens and hang it by clothespins on a line to finish the drying process.

If you press, one side of your finished paper will be very smooth, and the other will have a mild tooth. If you don't press, both sides will have tooth (roughness.)


http://www.bananas.org/f9/banana-paper-2634.html

Bananaman88
07-23-2008, 12:17 PM
Cool, Gabe! And just so you know, that's Ms. Lorax! I made the same mistake a few weeks back and she kindly corrected me. I was a bit embarassed!

Gabe15
07-23-2008, 12:19 PM
Cool, Gabe! And just so you know, that's Ms. Lorax! I made the same mistake a few weeks back and she kindly corrected me. I was a bit embarassed!
fixed ;)

thebes11
07-23-2008, 01:19 PM
What a great thread! Thanks so much for posting. I'd love to see pictures of the various steps, especially what the fibers look like after cutting, but before boiling.

Gabe15
07-23-2008, 02:08 PM
What a great thread! Thanks so much for posting. I'd love to see pictures of the various steps, especially what the fibers look like after cutting, but before boiling.

just looks like pseudostem discs, but next time i do it i'll get lots of pics during the process.

island cassie
09-30-2008, 01:04 PM
Hey Gabe, Lorax - I have been wrestling with paper-making for 2 days now, and am finding it quite hard. I sliced up an orinoco pstem into thin discs and then boiled it for an hour or so. The liquid was quite a dark red - so I poured that off, cubed the slices as they were still quite whole, added clean water and boiled for another hour. When I came to use the blender, the fibres were resistant enough to keep jamming the blades. The first attempt is now drying, but I couldn't get a smooth pulp and the fibres were quite long. Has anyone tried with petioles or leaves? I had to come and post this out of frustration and impatience!! lol.

island cassie
09-30-2008, 01:11 PM
Just been for another look at it, and it is more like felt than paper! Perhaps it will be better when it dries(hopefully).

scwritinglady
09-30-2008, 10:44 PM
Wow, this is really cool. If/when one of our bananas flowers I want to give this a try. I made paper back in the day in high school and it was a lot of fun. Nice looking banana paper!

Gabe15
10-01-2008, 12:29 AM
Hey Gabe, Lorax - I have been wrestling with paper-making for 2 days now, and am finding it quite hard. I sliced up an orinoco pstem into thin discs and then boiled it for an hour or so. The liquid was quite a dark red - so I poured that off, cubed the slices as they were still quite whole, added clean water and boiled for another hour. When I came to use the blender, the fibres were resistant enough to keep jamming the blades. The first attempt is now drying, but I couldn't get a smooth pulp and the fibres were quite long. Has anyone tried with petioles or leaves? I had to come and post this out of frustration and impatience!! lol.

When using the blender, I only used a rather small amount of pulp per batch, and lots of water too keep it from jamming. Also, I don't know if it matters, but I always used the water I boiled it in as well. I would add new water, but still always used the boiled water too. I was talking with a professor and he thought that perhaps the water held some of the starches and other things which may help to hold the paper together better, I don't know how much truth is in this but its a possibility that it might be better to keep all of the boiled water in your pulp. There are some fiber processing methods which include fermenting the starches out, leaving pure fiber which does not stick together well and then can be used more efficiently in textile work. Its very likely that the combination of boiling and replacing the water removes much of the starch and may prevent the paper from holding together nicely, and you may get very different results. Again, none of this is tested, just the thoughts of a bunch of guys sitting around and talking about theoretical paper making.

Also, the more water you add, the easier it is to pour the pulp, and since almost all of the water immediately drains, its of no consequence to add more water to your pulp just before pouring to achieve a desired consistency. And as for flattening and pressing the pulp, I would spread it thin with the narrow end of a ruler (in long overlapping passes, much like if you were going to paint a canvas one color with a brush, if that makes sense), and then after that, when my board was in place, I would flip the whole unit over so that the board was on the ground and pressing against the screen. I would then use a dough roller to further flatten and even out the pulp which was at that point pressed in between the board and the screen. I wish I had more time on my hands, I could then experiment with it more and finish my paper-making manual I was working on, unfortunately I have been rather busy with school, work and prior commitments to get much done in regards to my (many and varied) side projects.