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natedogg1026
07-20-2008, 10:49 PM
Give me your take on water suckers. Do you chop em off or let em grow. Do you think there is a big difference in water as apposed to a sword. I've always just saved all the pups I can for me or to give away. I've never deliberately chopped one back but maybe I should. Do you think it really slows mama's growth rate? What's your thoughts?-Thanx N advance-Nate:03:

Richard
07-20-2008, 11:01 PM
What do they look like?

:pics: :D

natedogg1026
07-20-2008, 11:05 PM
I was just reading where they said to cut em off. I know what they look like, just wanna know if I should start choppin em off and not waste my time with them. Thanx-Nate

austinl01
07-20-2008, 11:06 PM
I wonder what the difference is between a water sucker and sword sucker? A pic showing the two would be very helpful for beginners learning about bananas.

natedogg1026
07-20-2008, 11:14 PM
A water sucker looks more like a midget plant and is said to be a small fruit bearer and a weak plant. A sword sucker has thin pointy leaves and is said to be what you should save for propagation or as a replacement for mom.

pitangadiego
07-20-2008, 11:20 PM
They tend to grow well and look nice as small plants because they get true leaves earlier than the sword suckers, but have less well developed root systems and seem to lack vigor throughout their life cycle, in my experience. Remove them and use as ornamentals, but not for fruit production. These are both about 6-8" tall - one obviously looks like a little banana plant (water sucker), and the other will be much taller before it has any true leaves (sword).

http://webebananas.com/bpix/BP950-68.jpg

thebes11
07-21-2008, 07:31 AM
Thanks for the pics! Now I know all the pups around my plants are swords and should be good for fruit. Now the dilemma of letting them just grow naturally and creating a thick banana patch, or relocating them to different places.

snc
07-22-2008, 02:31 PM
great question,

I was getting ready to discard the swords on my mysores, saba and basjoos. guess will wait till they are decent height and transplant.

do the suckers hinder the moms growth?

Dean W.
07-22-2008, 03:20 PM
Great thread, I would like to follow it.

heynow
07-22-2008, 05:30 PM
Praying Hands sword suckers:02:http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11653&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11653):woohoonaner::woohoonaner::woohoonaner :

Dean W.
07-22-2008, 05:33 PM
Awsome pups!:woohoonaner:

heynow
07-22-2008, 05:42 PM
Praying Hands sword suckers:02:http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11653&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11653):woohoonaner::woohoonaner::woohoonaner :

austinl01
07-22-2008, 05:55 PM
Thanks for the pictures, guys. That really helps distinguish between the two.

mskitty38583
07-22-2008, 08:11 PM
Praying Hands sword suckers:02:http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11653&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11653):woohoonaner::woohoonaner::woohoonaner :

what no corona? LOL!
nice looking nanas!

pitangadiego
07-26-2008, 11:51 PM
Here is an example of the huge difference in root development and corm size between water and sword suckers. Both are Goldfinger pups removed at the same time from the same parent plant.

http://webebananas.com/bpix/BP954-08.jpg

Dean W.
07-26-2008, 11:57 PM
Thanks for posting that.

Dean W.
07-26-2008, 11:59 PM
Is it possible to grow water suckers and have them form sword suckers?

bencelest
07-27-2008, 06:50 AM
Good question Dean. My dwarf Cav seems like all it gives are water suckers.

austinl01
07-27-2008, 07:08 AM
Wow, the difference is amazing. That picture really shows it all very well. Water suckers must be so weak.

natedogg1026
07-27-2008, 01:29 PM
Excellent pics Pitanga! Thanx for illustrating what I was trying to explain.

Taylor
07-27-2008, 01:44 PM
One of my Orinoco sends out all sword. The other (the mother died) sends out all water suckers. The thing is...why? I think with a healthy mom, the pups can be sent out with more vigor because of a healthy root system of the mom and lots of solar intake. Make sense?

natedogg1026
07-27-2008, 01:59 PM
Yea it does. Can't explain that T.

MediaHound
08-03-2008, 04:32 PM
Here's a couple pictures I just took of one sword pup and two water suckers on a stand of Jamaican Red that I have.
The water suckers are closer to where the last pseudostem was to bloom. I imagine they are attached to the remains of that pseudostem rather than this mother pseudostem that persists.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=12040&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=12040)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=12041&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=12041)

It's a strange angle to take a picture from, so you can't really tell, but the water suckers, or "umbrella pups", are only perhaps 8" tall while the sword is a couple feet already and still without a wide leaf.

Simply Bananas
08-03-2008, 05:49 PM
I guess they are called 'water' suckers for a reason.
Broad leaves have more surface area transpire more water, thus using(sucking) more water.

JCDerrick
09-15-2008, 10:01 AM
This thread has really taught me a lot about this subject, and the photo by pitangadiego was fantastic (and amazing to see the difference).

So I set out to try and ID my sword versus water suckers. And so far I'm having more trouble than I expected with IDing the sword leaves on all of my Basjoo; the Cavendish bananas are much easier. Some pups on the Basjoo are what appear to be obvious sword suckers, but others - like in this photo below - well I have no idea which are which. They are all so close to the parent they look like water suckers, but some resemble the sword leaves. What's the better indicated in basjoo? The shape of the leaves or of the p-stem itself? Help!

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=13266&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=13266&ppuser=4126)

JCDerrick
09-15-2008, 10:06 AM
Here's another, circled in red. At first glance I'd say it's sword. But I can't tell with the Basjoo pups.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=13267&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=13267&ppuser=4126)

bepah
09-15-2008, 10:07 AM
It seems to me that the 'water suckers' are suffering from a lack of nutrition rather than some aberrant behavior of the mother plant. I would guess that if the NPK balance was adjusted to enhance root development that the 'water sucker' problem would disappear.

For those of you who get them, how often do you fertilize, feed? Maybe there is a clue there. If you feed, what do you feed? If it is strictly a high nitrogen application, it makes sense (to me at least) that water suckers would be the result.

Just some thoughts.....

Bob
09-15-2008, 11:45 AM
Big thanks to all who posted here and especially the pics. Pitangadiego's were especially helpfull since they are showing the roots. Since I'm somewhat new at this I'd have assumed the water suckers were the better candidates for propagation. Thanks again to all.

momoese
09-15-2008, 12:09 PM
My water suckers generally emerge a greater distance from the mother than the sword pups, and like Jarred, I believe they may be coming from a plant that was cut down long time ago, not the current mother plant. I have a Pisang Klotek water sucker right now that's about 2 feet from the mother. It must be growing from something I cut down long ago. Does anyone get them on first generation plants? I don't think I have.

MSmith
05-04-2009, 09:24 PM
I suppose there is no way to know if that plant your buying from the store is a sword or water unless they mark the container?

sunfish
05-04-2009, 11:53 PM
Is it possible water suckers are developing of the root system,runners,and sword pups develop right off the corm.

Magilla Gorilla
05-04-2009, 11:58 PM
Excellent pics Pitanga! Thanx for illustrating what I was trying to explain.

Great thread. I thought I was the only one confused! This is just one example of how cool the forum is!

Thank you!

sunfish
05-05-2009, 12:26 AM
Sometimes suckers from old, deteriorating corms have broad leaves from the outset. These are called "water" suckers, are insubstantial, with very little vigor, and are not desirable propagating material. "

ArchAngeL01
05-07-2009, 09:36 PM
so whats a water sucker? the ones that grow off the mother corm? or the ones that shoot up from the roots and underground corm?

Jack Daw
05-09-2009, 08:53 AM
I was just curious, if I got a water sucker from my friend and wanted to have a banana plant, that would be primarily supposed just to give fruit...
Could I do it so:
Have the water pup from a little bit, then, if it has sword pups, remove sword pup to another pot/ground and let it grow...

Water pups can have sword pups, right?
Thanks...

sunfish
05-09-2009, 10:08 AM
From what I have read a water sucker will fruit. The thing with sward pups is they grow faster and will give a bigger bunch than water suckers. I don't see why a water sucker would not get sward pups. All the tc plants have broad leaves hardly any corm and they fruit and make sword suckers.

Jack Daw
05-09-2009, 10:10 AM
From what I have read a water sucker will fruit. The thing with sward pups is they grow faster and will give a bigger bunch than water suckers. I don't see why a water sucker would not get sward pups. All the tc plants have broad leaves hardly any corm and they fruit and make sword suckers.
Thought so, just wanted to make sure. Thanks to you, pal...

Tog Tan
05-09-2009, 11:37 AM
Layman's theory again; as most of these water suckers are from split or pieces of corms, I guess they tend to generate biggish leaves for photosynthesis from the start as an instinct to survival being not fed from the mother plant.

I have the bad habit of picking up these fellas as they look cute like a lil 'naner. I can always get it here after a fruiting plant has been cut off and no one cares for them. When I grow them, they will be very slow to start off. However once they have developed a good root system and are able to fend for themselves and with me giving them fert, they will grow like an ordinary pup. So far over here, it takes as least 7 mths or so for them to get the strength to grow well. In the meantime, they do pup like any normal plant after the 5 mth. I have yet to fruit any, but I let will let you guys know when they do.

I picked this ipod size corm flake which was embedded in about 2inches of soil. That was 3 weeks ago and now it is has put out many new leaves already. This is a DC aka Pisang Serendah.
<a href=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=16110><img src=http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=16678 border=0></a>

Worm_Farmer
05-09-2009, 04:14 PM
I think we should make this a sticky.

alexizhere19
06-13-2009, 11:08 PM
second the sticky

Gabe15
06-13-2009, 11:47 PM
Is it possible water suckers are developing of the root system,runners,and sword pups develop right off the corm.

Roots never form suckers, they only come from the corm.

As Tog pointed out, water suckers form from bits of corm and from chopped down plants because the shoots need to immediately start photosynthesizing themselves instead of acquiring photosynthate from the rest of the plant which has leaves. Water suckers can also form from old established mats, I suppose they occur from a complex coincidence of certain anatomical and environmental circumstances (such as how old the corm section its coming off of is, or how exposed to the sun it is etc..)

Keep in mind that whether or not a sucker is sword or water, they are genetically identical and one is not going to be overall better than another, there just may be some growth differences initially when young. Some studies have found differences in the first fruit bunch, and some have found none, I think it really depends on cultivar and environment, as do most results of this sort. TC plants are the ultimate water suckers, and they grow up just fine, in some cases outgrowing field separated suckers initially, but again, after the first generation is doesn't matter how they plant was propagated.

proletariatcsp
06-14-2009, 12:12 AM
I third the sticky.


I have a problem with the swords theories. The pictures seem to tell all, but I wonder if there is an exception to the rules now and again?

My first Ice Cream pup sprang out 6" in circumference and grew to over 7ft in just four months. I would say its a good sucker, but also because its 4th leaf was its first true one.

But then came the second pup, it emerged slower than the previous and its second leaf was its first true. Normally, my sword pups grow 4-5 sword leaves before the full leaf, so I thought this one was a water. But now it is already over 4ft tall and very thick.

The other questionable trait is in regard to the distance from the parent plant. I have a pup coming up now that is farthest from the parent by about 2ft. Its coming off the parent plant, I'm sure, but its 8" tall and still has no leaf. It is also twice the diameter of any pup that's grown before it.

I haven't given my nanner any fertilizer since late Feb or early March. That was an all purpose slow-release granular 8-4-8. I have put down sulfur and sprayed foliar nutritional w/ minors only. There are seven pups now and I believe they are all swords except, perhaps, the one I mentioned above.

Thanks for the thread and the great info!

proletariatcsp
06-14-2009, 12:15 AM
Roots never form suckers, they only come from the corm.

As Tog pointed out, water suckers form from bits of corm and from chopped down plants because the shoots need to immediately start photosynthesizing themselves instead of acquiring photosynthate from the rest of the plant which has leaves. Water suckers can also form from old established mats, I suppose they occur from a complex coincidence of certain anatomical and environmental circumstances (such as how old the corm section its coming off of is, or how exposed to the sun it is etc..)

Keep in mind that whether or not a sucker is sword or water, they are genetically identical and one is not going to be overall better than another, there just may be some growth differences initially when young. Some studies have found differences in the first fruit bunch, and some have found none, I think it really depends on cultivar and environment, as do most results of this sort. TC plants are the ultimate water suckers, and they grow up just fine, in some cases outgrowing field separated suckers initially, but again, after the first generation is doesn't matter how they plant was propagated.

Thanks for this excellent update Gabe! I thought so. I have watched a group of nanners for about a year now. I dont know what they are but at the time I first started watching them, there were about 10 plants on one mat. Last summer, there were 3 huge bunches growing at the same time. They eventually ripened but unfortunately the wind and the birds destroyed them. I think depending on the species, that even many pseudos on one mat can still produce large bunches?

alexizhere19
06-14-2009, 10:07 AM
Thanks for the sticky Gabe.

Alex

alexizhere19
06-24-2009, 12:51 PM
I just had a basjoo throw a sword sucker from a old corm. no leaves or any p-stem, it has produced water suckers like crazy off it but all of sudden here comes this nice looking sword sucker. Amazing.

alex

ewitte
07-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Roots never form suckers, they only come from the corm.


I think he means pulling the nutrients off the mother corm opposed to developing much on its own.

sirmoebly
07-11-2009, 07:53 PM
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=19205&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19205&ppuser=4702)

This was one of three water suckers stuck together I saved. It was a little chuck of corm about the size of a dime with little plants growing off of it. Now look at it after 5 months, the other 2 are in pots and growing fine.(sdc)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=19204&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=19204&ppuser=4702)

Now these are dc swords that are almost 2 months old and growing fast. I think both grow good. I have a monster corm of a Orinoco with a sword and it's as big as my two year old dc.... (mother corm makes a difference)

TommyMacLuckie
08-01-2009, 09:04 AM
For those of you who do not have the DVD they do show the difference but it's somewhat quick. This thread is considerably more informative in that, well, like the one of the two different suckers on the pavement, I can take my time to look and see the obviousness.

It's quite funny in a way. I've only ever removed suckers, period, that were in the way of something (path, building). I've often seen the sword suckers and thought that they were just some bizarreness going on.

Now I know the difference.

I can't remember if I've removed water suckers and planted them elsewhere. I'm quite sure I have. They all have grown the same as any other bananas.

But now that I know I will choose otherwise and put the water suckers on the periphery of the yard and swords where I want the best plants.

Also, just to be sure, is this the case for all suckering bananas or just the ones that make edible fruit? Anyone know?

Great thread. I swear I learn something here every day. Like how I thought, ha ha, Orinoco were possibly and probably cavendish ha ha ha ha....

TommyMacLuckie
08-01-2009, 11:07 AM
Took a short walk and noticed that all of the suckers on my bananas (ornata, bordelon, saba and orinoco - the zebrina doesn't have any yet) are all sword suckers.

Funny what a little bit of knowledge can do eh?! Now I know what to look for. And I guess I answered my own question of do they all do that? I'm leaning on the side of yes. Then I thought well why wouldn't they? Hey, you never know.

Ironically, in Bananas You Can Grow, they do talk about sword and water suckers but there is no visible example. So if you don't know what to look for...and this thread certainly helped with that, along with the DVD.

So I'll probably set up a run of water suckers eventually and plant the sword suckers, if I do remove them, where I want nice plants. This should eventually be an interesting experiment.

figafita
08-10-2009, 05:36 PM
Can somebody post a picture of a water sucker and a sword one for new folks to see ?
Thanks.

Jack Daw
08-10-2009, 05:59 PM
Can somebody post a picture of a water sucker and a sword one for new folks to see ?
Thanks.
It was on page 1 of this thread. ;)
http://www.bananas.org/f2/water-suckers-5285.html#post46506

adrift
08-10-2009, 06:04 PM
Can somebody post a picture of a water sucker and a sword one for new folks to see ?
Thanks.

You can look in my gallery, there are photos of both there.

or

You can see them posted in the other sucker thread: http://www.bananas.org/f311/removing-water-suckers-8716.html

adrift
08-10-2009, 06:06 PM
It was on page 1 of this thread. ;)
http://www.bananas.org/f2/water-suckers-5285.html#post46506

Or that!

TommyMacLuckie
08-12-2009, 10:59 AM
Since things are backwards here it's not on page one but the highest number being the 'first' page, so it's the last page.

Why is that anyway? That's very bizarre and confusing sometimes.

Jack Daw
08-12-2009, 03:00 PM
Since things are backwards here it's not on page one but the highest number being the 'first' page, so it's the last page.

Why is that anyway? That's very bizarre and confusing sometimes.
You know that you can set it to standard, first post fist page view? ;)

hilashes
08-17-2009, 11:11 PM
Thanks everyone for their input in this thread; amazing and informative! I can't believe how much I've learned in the last year on this forum and now I even know how to set first post first page view...thanks Jack! lol


Heidi :bananas_b

Richard
08-17-2009, 11:54 PM
Water suckers and sword suckers: after transplanting into a 5+ gallon pots and feeding them through irrigation for 3 months ... mine are indistiguishable. I am using 100ppm nitrogen, 25ppm phosphate, and 150ppm potash.

cvining
10-07-2009, 10:15 PM
Thank you for the post in this thread, they are very helpful.

fredos417
10-09-2009, 10:18 PM
Why do Banana Water Suckers Lack Vigor?

The key word of interest here is "vigor."

Is a sucker from a water sucker always a water sucker? Is a meristem clone from a sword / water sucker always a sword / water sucker? Does musa coccinea which naturally clumps like a canna have sword and water suckers?

From what I understand...

Water suckers have less vigor because they have a much smaller root system. Genetically, water suckers and sword leaf suckers are the same. Water suckers are generally suckers formed from the root system of a harvested or dead trunk. Sword leaf suckers are formed from the root system of an actively growing mother trunk. The mother trunk is able to supply the baby sucker with lots more energy that is used to grow a substantial root system.

A water sucker can be used to grow a perfectly normal plant, but a sword leaf sucker just has a big head start. Both will result in the same plant eventually. Sword leaf suckers are strongly preferred in commercial production because they establish much faster and much more reliably.

I don't know specifically about musa coccinea suckers, but don't see any reason they would be significantly different than

TommyMacLuckie
10-12-2009, 01:07 PM
You mean, by making it work differently, if there are three pages then page 3 is the most recent? I'll have to figure that one out.

Water suckers. Well, I think in the interest of growing, and we all love our bananas to grow as fast as possible, the sword suckers are the ones to put where you really want something.

Alas, I have transplanted both. There is a difference for quite some time. The swords don't tend to bunch their fronds, they stay more spread out space wise on the p-stem. However, what's funny about the water suckers is they are, for lack of a better word, cute. They do grow a lot slower. I'm going to experiment with both though (shade, half sun and full sun) and will have more conclusive results by May or something of Twenty Ten. I'm sure this thread will still be going and if not, well, I'll do something.

jeffreyp
10-24-2009, 06:33 PM
I am wondering if some soil or weakened condition causes them to appear to begin with.
I'd be curious how the water suckers do if you plant them in ideal conditions with plenty good soil and fertilizer if they then regain whatever vigor was lost and become just as productive as swords..

TommyMacLuckie
11-11-2009, 10:22 AM
I've been pulling water suckers out, just popping them out with my hand, no shovel, and have planted several just to see what they'll do. I've got sword suckers all over the place and I've been moving some of those lately at various jobs.

sirmoebly
12-13-2009, 10:12 PM
here's my update..... all three came from michael andrew.... three little & can't say enough little plants the size of a dime.... on one chuck of growth.... Before I brought them in the house I chop the tops off, what you see is new growth... Michael if your reading I have a tall orinoco with your name on it........ Can't say enough of nice people on the org......... thank you all......SDC...........are awesome........

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=27707&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=27707&limit=recent)

TommyMacLuckie
10-06-2010, 10:17 AM
It's gotten quite easy to tell them apart as mature plants - swords and waters. All of the water suckers that have grown are quite thin, small and grow rather slow. They work fine as far as wanting to have something green, which is all I've kept them for in certain places where I want something to not get too tall quickly.

kelehawaii
10-11-2010, 10:50 PM
I am wondering if some soil or weakened condition causes them to appear to begin with.
I'd be curious how the water suckers do if you plant them in ideal conditions with plenty good soil and fertilizer if they then regain whatever vigor was lost and become just as productive as swords..

Jeff, my experience here is that tho the water sucker itself is a very dwarf plant and won't do what a sword will do at maturity, the babies that appear around the parent water sucker do a lot better provided that the original was planted deep enough.

A water sucker is nothing more than a pup that has developed close to the soil surface and reaches the light when it isn't quite ready to start growing up. The swords pop out of the corm at least 6 inches below the soil surface. The deeper the better.

I like the idea of planting the little tykes into a pot and keeping them as potted little things until they have put out at least 10 leaves then taking them out of the pot and putting them in ground.

Aloha to all from the 'Big Island' of Hawai'i.

Kele

PS - Tho the water sucker won't be producing and looking like a sword at first, its followers/ratoons, will be normal sized and produce a normal weight bunch for that particular variety.

tucsonplumeriaz
11-15-2010, 10:10 AM
very informational thread. thanks for posting pics for the newbies.

sunfish
07-02-2011, 10:55 AM
Water sucker and sword growing side by side

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=44022&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=44022&ppuser=2868)

Vickie H.
07-25-2011, 02:47 PM
I am a plant hog, so I keep all bananas. LOL

TrailGaiter
08-27-2011, 10:40 PM
Very interesting discussion! I got ALL excited about seeing pups, completely forgetting that there are different kinds of pups.... (the only pupping bananas I have are basjoos, I'm told maureliis don't pup unless you "force" them...which I don't plan on!)

So, looking at my pics....I have 5 pups now (from two plants) and the only two that have leaves now, looks like they're water suckers. The first one is obvious, the other one only has one little leaf, but certainly doesn't look like a sword.

http://www.bananas.org/f2/more-pups-14304.html

But since I am growing these strictly for ornamental value...am I correct in assuming that I shouldn't worry too much about pulling the water suckers out, unless I'm getting more than I'd like? Or, can they damage my (young, still growing) parent plant, so should I consider trying to get them potted while still small, or would there not be enough of a root system there?

Completely forgot about the different kinds of pups, until I read this....now I'll be watching them to see what the rest turn out to be.

sunfish
08-28-2011, 03:48 PM
Maybe it's best to wait till there bigger

caliboy1994
09-11-2011, 06:58 PM
I just know that when my plants get water suckers I'm going to get rid of them.

bananimal
09-11-2011, 07:05 PM
On my Goldfinger mat the third and fourth year old main pstem corms are producing water suckers. I dig them out for the compost pile. Waste of time to pot them.

kelehawaii
09-11-2011, 07:16 PM
If the sheer number of pups leads to your having too many of them, then, by all means, don't keep them. But if that doesn't matter and you are like me..the thicker the planting the better I like it as such a 'wall' makes for a good windbreak plus if you have neighbors who are noisy, it will cut down that noise and provide some see-through-proof privacy! Living in town now on a small houselot instead of on 20 acres makes it necessary to not be able to see adjoining homes. Don't get me wrong. I have great neighbors but I only want to see them when I WANT to see them! <grin>

Very interesting discussion! I got ALL excited about seeing pups, completely forgetting that there are different kinds of pups.... (the only pupping bananas I have are basjoos, I'm told maureliis don't pup unless you "force" them...which I don't plan on!)

So, looking at my pics....I have 5 pups now (from two plants) and the only two that have leaves now, looks like they're water suckers. The first one is obvious, the other one only has one little leaf, but certainly doesn't look like a sword.

http://www.bananas.org/f2/more-pups-14304.html

But since I am growing these strictly for ornamental value...am I correct in assuming that I shouldn't worry too much about pulling the water suckers out, unless I'm getting more than I'd like? Or, can they damage my (young, still growing) parent plant, so should I consider trying to get them potted while still small, or would there not be enough of a root system there?

Completely forgot about the different kinds of pups, until I read this....now I'll be watching them to see what the rest turn out to be.

kelehawaii
12-02-2011, 04:24 AM
I am wondering if some soil or weakened condition causes them to appear to begin with.
I'd be curious how the water suckers do if you plant them in ideal conditions with plenty good soil and fertilizer if they then regain whatever vigor was lost and become just as productive as swords..

I have just planted a Dwarf Cavendish water sucker in what one would describe as ideal conditions just outside my bedroom window. The leaves are laden with purple splotches and the plant is barely 8 inches in height. It will grow slowly, bear a relatively small bunch of fruit but the ratoons will be quite normal. I'll take a pic of it and put it into my own gallery here shortly.

Chance1945
12-02-2011, 11:10 AM
Nate, a great question. I haven't read any of the replies yet but I've often wondered the same thing. I'll follow this thread and probably learn a lot. Thanks again for this question.

Chance1945
12-02-2011, 11:35 AM
Thanks for the pics! Now I know all the pups around my plants are swords and should be good for fruit. Now the dilemma of letting them just grow naturally and creating a thick banana patch, or relocating them to different places.

May you could sell or give away those pups on BANANAS.

Chance1945
12-02-2011, 05:44 PM
Thanks for the pics! Now I know all the pups around my plants are swords and should be good for fruit. Now the dilemma of letting them just grow naturally and creating a thick banana patch, or relocating them to different places.

I don't know how I commented on a post from 2008, but I'm guilty. Anyway, it's a good post and I learned from it so maybe someone else will also.

robguz24
02-21-2012, 02:56 PM
Here are 3 pups I removed from my original A'e a'e. The first two were sword suckers, and the last is a water sucker. The water sucker happens to have more green, which might account for why it is the most healthy of the 3 about 6 months after being removed from the mother plant.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=47257&size=1
Pup 3, sword sucker.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=47259&size=1
Pup 2, sword sucker.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=47255&size=1
Pup 3, water sucker. Picture doesn't do it justice, looks the most healthy in person. Looks smaller here given the angle of the picture.

For my dwarf Brazillians and most other that I have too many of, I just break off the water suckers. But with the A'e a'e there was no way I was going to give up when it had such obviously variegated young leaves. The water sucker is already creating pups of its own, while the two sword suckers have not yet.

kelehawaii
02-21-2012, 03:07 PM
A beautiful plant to say the least! I'd give most anything to have one like it!

Here are 3 pups I removed from my original A'e a'e. The first two were sword suckers, and the last is a water sucker. The water sucker happens to have more green, which might account for why it is the most healthy of the 3 about 6 months after being removed from the mother plant.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=47257&size=1
Pup 3, sword sucker.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=47259&size=1
Pup 2, sword sucker.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=47255&size=1
Pup 3, water sucker. Picture doesn't do it justice, looks the most healthy in person. Looks smaller here given the angle of the picture.

For my dwarf Brazillians and most other that I have too many of, I just break off the water suckers. But with the A'e a'e there was no way I was going to give up when it had such obviously variegated young leaves. The water sucker is already creating pups of its own, while the two sword suckers have not yet.

paulorph
02-22-2012, 10:25 PM
I don't know how I commented on a post from 2008, but I'm guilty. Anyway, it's a good post and I learned from it so maybe someone else will also.
Actually,
does not matter because this is a great thread for people to see. Also, give people a chance to comment on their beliefs on the differences between the two. I agree that the plants are same b/c of dna should be the same (besides possibly AeAe and other genetic mutation). So differences should be related to root system. I also believe that water suckers probably are pulling nutients from parent plant. This does not force root system to form early on. Plant gets big and mother plant cannot provide for the pup. This slows down the pup. Then people cut pup off giving it more shock and slowing down its growth for a while. Water suckers are fighting from the beginning. They are not about to get water and nutrients from soil. So they develop a good root system before they develop the leaf (this is true with non-bananas grown from seed). Once a plant gets a good root system, the leaves will have necessary nutrients to photosynthesize. We cut this off and it has everything it needs. It is not shocked as much when we cut it "umbilical" cord. Next thing is to figure out what causes the difference. I wish I knew. Probably, it is due to limited nutrients from the mother plant. I do believe that a water sucker can be as vigorus as a sword. But they take more time and may fruit before the have the time to completely catch up. This would explain the difference in size of the bunches. This all being said, other argument is that mother plant giving sword lots of nutrients so thats why they dont get leaves (dont need them). This could be true. My problem is why does it force roots. The I just like the other theory more. I think it is more like a plant growing from a seed. Now I not sure myself lol. But think first theory is best in my mind. But this is a great thread.

kelehawaii
04-15-2012, 11:28 PM
I just know that when my plants get water suckers I'm going to get rid of them.

That's what we do as commercial producers. Depending on the variety, we only leave one or two sword pups per parent and remove the rest, including the water suckers by gouging them out to the growing point.

Nom
04-15-2012, 11:32 PM
With slow growing tropicals I keep, whenever basal shoots pop up, it never saps the mother's growth. In my opinion, it actually may help. The leaves of the suckers conduct photosynthesis too, it's not just growing all off the mother. While it may slow it initially, it will soon pick up speed again and all the growing points will be growing at the same fast rate. On one of my plants, the mother vine and the two shoots were timing their leaf openings so that they would open at different times, then once the shoots got big enough, all were opening at the same time. So basically, I believe it only saps energy initially and no more after that.

2woodensticks
04-24-2012, 05:56 PM
new to site not to growing bananas...arnt water suckers used by the mother plant to regulate water....dont water suckers act as water storage for mother plant????there if needed by mom incase of low water i.e less rain.. if not needed no problem???

bananafarmer
05-03-2012, 04:12 AM
Here I have a new photo of a nice sword sucker in my greenhouse

Directupload.net - g2k9iu9w.jpg (http://s14.directupload.net/file/d/2879/g2k9iu9w_jpg.htm)

http://s14.directupload.net/images/120503/g2k9iu9w.jpg (http://www.directupload.net)

caliboy1994
05-03-2012, 11:28 AM
I've noticed that some suckers tend to be intermediates between sword and water suckers. A sucker that came right off of an old Mysore corm started out a sword sucker but quickly developed into a water sucker, but it still grows very vigorously.

sunfish
05-03-2012, 12:07 PM
I've noticed that some suckers tend to be intermediates between sword and water suckers. A sucker that came right off of an old Mysore corm started out a sword sucker but quickly developed into a water sucker, but it still grows very vigorously.

That's a swater sucker

dkf85281
05-19-2012, 10:43 PM
I just bought two petri-cultured plants online. they and about 8" tall and have broad leaves already. Does this mean they are water suckers? Why would someone sell petri-cultured water suckers? I bought them from Aloha Tropicals online... did I make a bad choice?

Thanks!

sunfish
05-19-2012, 10:48 PM
I just bought two petri-cultured plants online. they and about 8" tall and have broad leaves already. Does this mean they are water suckers? Why would someone sell petri-cultured water suckers? I bought them from Aloha Tropicals online... did I make a bad choice?

Thanks!

No but you need to acclimate them.Keep them out of direct sun for now'

robguz24
05-20-2012, 02:59 AM
I just bought two petri-cultured plants online. they and about 8" tall and have broad leaves already. Does this mean they are water suckers? Why would someone sell petri-cultured water suckers? I bought them from Aloha Tropicals online... did I make a bad choice?

Thanks!

No I don't think so. All the TC plants I have gotten, all from Aloha Tropicals, have been this way. TCs I have bought locally are similar, maybe a little more thick, but nothing like a true pup. They are quite different from sword suckers, but not as broad leaved as water suckers. All have gone in full sun in Hawaii right away, so for me, I've never tried to acclimate them. Maybe 2 of 12 died--1 from corm weevils (my fault), 1 arrived in sad shape (fault of transit most likely) and was replaced for free. The replacement is doing great. I'm now first transplanting to bigger pots where they are corm weevil safe until they get a bit bigger.

That said, my water sucker A'e A'e from an original plant is my healthiest and happiest of 3 transplanted pups. So even if you bought a water sucker, while generally not the best, I would think in the right conditions it could thrive. Just realized I posted in this thread 3 months ago with pictures. Wow, have these 3 taken off since then! The water sucker has 5 pups so far, the other two 3 and 2, and the water sucker is by far the thickest and tallest, although still a bit more green than the others. That said, it is all alone with no other banana competition, with the house as a windbreak, and virgin "soil" (probably no corm weevils and less nematodes). Which I think adds to the idea that if treated right, in a good spot, a water sucker can do fine. And if you spent $ for it, try that before you give up.

sunfish
05-20-2012, 08:05 AM
You will have better luck with TC's if you plant first in small pots and let them get a good root system before you plant in ground.New TC plants exposed to direct sun will burn.

bananimal
05-20-2012, 06:54 PM
You will have better luck with TC's if you plant first in small pots and let them get a good root system before you plant in ground.New TC plants exposed to direct sun will burn.

Yeah, what he said! I started this banana thing with potted TC's picked up at Going Bananas in Homestead, Fl. They did great. Then I ordered more by mail and they were bareroot TCs. Half of them died quick. Learned to never order TCs during the winter. And I live in S Fla. Without a greenhouse they will damp off quick.

caliboy1994
07-17-2012, 12:38 PM
All my Ice Cream has produced so far are water suckers. They come straight off of the mother plant and are well-attached to it. Meanwhile, my unknown and my Mysore are busy producing sword suckers. What would cause this?

willholly2
08-14-2012, 06:07 PM
i feel so lost.. i hav3 always wanted a banana tree because i LOVE the looks of them. this year i moved to Florida and my son bought me some banana plants in gallon buckets from target. I replanted them and they are growing like crazy. One started to get yellow and look like it was dying and i noticed small plants popping up all around them. I decided to "google" it and i found this site and who would have known all this stuff. I just now feel lost and will try to re-read this thread to figure out what to do with the "babies" that could be many diff things!! i will be interested to see what this thread brings. any suggestions for basics for a beginner? THANKS in advance :)

Abnshrek
08-14-2012, 08:46 PM
All my pups have been swords since the water sucker on my R Iholena withered away.. it has a sword on now.. :^)

venturabananas
08-14-2012, 11:02 PM
i feel so lost.. i hav3 always wanted a banana tree because i LOVE the looks of them. this year i moved to Florida and my son bought me some banana plants in gallon buckets from target. I replanted them and they are growing like crazy. One started to get yellow and look like it was dying and i noticed small plants popping up all around them. I decided to "google" it and i found this site and who would have known all this stuff. I just now feel lost and will try to re-read this thread to figure out what to do with the "babies" that could be many diff things!! i will be interested to see what this thread brings. any suggestions for basics for a beginner? THANKS in advance :)

Leave the "babies" (suckers). Your plant produced them because the main stem was dying. Figure out why the main stem was giving up the ghost or the suckers will die, too.

Foreverlad
10-25-2012, 05:56 PM
Yeah, what he said! I started this banana thing with potted TC's picked up at Going Bananas in Homestead, Fl. They did great. Then I ordered more by mail and they were bareroot TCs. Half of them died quick. Learned to never order TCs during the winter. And I live in S Fla. Without a greenhouse they will damp off quick.

I purchased a number of TCs from Wellspring Gardens (in Central Florida). After contacting WSG about some initial problems I was having, Donovan, either an employee or the owner, told me their bananas are grown under 50% shade cloth.

Trying to expose newly acquired young plants to 100% sunlight will kill them right quick, especially with the thin strands of roots the plants are forced to work with.

Anyway, back on topic, I noticed that all my TCs resemble water suckers. Fortunately it only took about 3 weeks of 1g pot/dappled shade acclimation before they were tough enough to survive on their own in full sun with a bag of cheap box-store manure mixed into the florida sand.

3 months later, and the root systems aren't overly extensive, but the plants seem to be near-hybrids; not as tall as a bulbous-cormed nanas would be by now, but not as weak and susceptible to problems as a thin-rooted plant would lead you to believe.

Abnshrek
10-25-2012, 06:04 PM
I had an Ice Cream push up a Water sucker but since died after the flowering and death of the main plant.. The Sword pup from the main plant is pushing up a sword pup now.. :^)

caliboy1994
10-25-2012, 06:10 PM
Here's a nice sword sucker coming off of one of my unidentified plants.

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t464/musamaniac/Musa/2012-10-20104035_zps7853e23f.jpg

venturabananas
10-25-2012, 06:28 PM
I think TC plants always resemble water suckers when young. They don't really have corms to speak of -- no stored energy.

austinl01
10-25-2012, 08:28 PM
Here's a nice sword sucker coming off of one of my unidentified plants.

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t464/musamaniac/Musa/2012-10-20104035_zps7853e23f.jpg

That is a very nice illustration, Caliboy!

Johngoldcoast
01-24-2013, 08:47 PM
If you plant a water sucker and it grows will it produce its own sword suckers as it gets bigger? I think I may have been given water suckers and have planted those.

venturabananas
01-24-2013, 08:56 PM
If you plant a water sucker and it grows will it produce its own sword suckers as it gets bigger? I think I may have been given water suckers and have planted those.

Yes, if it eventually grows a big, healthy corm. There is no genetic difference between sword and water suckers. They difference is the size of the corm and so the energy reserves. A water sucker may be slower to establish and produce a smaller bunch, but once the mat gets established, it'll be no different.

brod
02-03-2013, 09:35 PM
I have an interesting question re sword and water suckers.

Here are some photos of my Williams with a health sword on the left and a semi sword/water on the right.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/Brodklop/20130204_102321_zps3fccea8c.jpg

close up of water growing from old corm

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh219/Brodklop/20130204_102241_zpsa52c65f5.jpg

Notice the water has red blotches and the sword doesn't.

Has anyone noticed this with types that can produce red blotching on young leaves.

My Mysore and goldfinger TC plants have red blotching.

My dwarf Cavendish which I planted from a healthy sword sucker which was trimmed of most of the p-stem came up with red blotches on the leaves.

My Williams with the same treatment had no red on the leaves.

My question is, could this water sucker(?) be a dwarf sport . Do TC Williams have red blotches and do water suckers on Williams or any of the larger Caves have the red.

Do the large Caves produce dwarfs. Normally the large came from the dwarf.

frog7994
02-12-2013, 09:07 AM
What variety is that? Is it anew one that grows beer pups? I would like to buy one from ya. Name your price.

brod
02-12-2013, 06:41 PM
What variety is that? Is it anew one that grows beer pups? I would like to buy one from ya. Name your price.

This a common old Williams variety of Cavendish which would be available in your area.
What is a beer pup, never heard of that term.

Darkman
07-07-2013, 07:00 PM
Roots never form suckers, they only come from the corm.

As Tog pointed out, water suckers form from bits of corm and from chopped down plants because the shoots need to immediately start photosynthesizing themselves instead of acquiring photosynthate from the rest of the plant which has leaves. Water suckers can also form from old established mats, I suppose they occur from a complex coincidence of certain anatomical and environmental circumstances (such as how old the corm section its coming off of is, or how exposed to the sun it is etc..)

Keep in mind that whether or not a sucker is sword or water, they are genetically identical and one is not going to be overall better than another, there just may be some growth differences initially when young. Some studies have found differences in the first fruit bunch, and some have found none, I think it really depends on cultivar and environment, as do most results of this sort. TC plants are the ultimate water suckers, and they grow up just fine, in some cases outgrowing field separated suckers initially, but again, after the first generation is doesn't matter how they plant was propagated.

Water suckers and sword suckers: after transplanting into a 5+ gallon pots and feeding them through irrigation for 3 months ... mine are indistiguishable. I am using 100ppm nitrogen, 25ppm phosphate, and 150ppm potash.

After reading this post again, there are two posts that everyone needs to keep in mind. Others are realy good but I felt these two sum it up pretty well!

Gabes and Richards offer some excellent knowledge and these two should be given credibility and pulled up from where they were buried on page two.

Others are really good but I felt these two sum it up pretty well!

sunfish
07-07-2013, 07:36 PM
I like this one more.

What variety is that? Is it anew one that grows beer pups?

Abnshrek
07-07-2013, 07:45 PM
I like this one more.

What variety is that? Is it anew one that grows beer pups?

pop-a-top-o-pup.. :^)

SWAMPER
07-23-2013, 11:05 PM
Praying Hands sword suckers:02:http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11653&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11653):woohoonaner::woohoonaner::woohoonaner :

What kind of plant is that? Do you have one that grows Budweiser? :nanadrink:

KYpalmer
10-21-2013, 12:33 PM
If I guess properly would I be right if I said the two on the namwah are water suckers and the one on the Caligold is a Sword?

These are the pups that's on my dwarf namwah

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/egk0321/bananas/dnamwahpup1_zpsb246a259.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/egk0321/bananas/dnamwahpup2_zpse8ae0eab.jpg

This is the one on the Caligold:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/egk0321/bananas/caligoldpup1_zps3f18402b.jpg

wolfyhound
10-21-2013, 05:44 PM
Since my main p-stems died off due a freeze last winter and most/all of what came up in the spring were water instead of swords, would it be better to separate them and plant separately, leave them as is or cut all but the largest water down on each?

Love the pictures that make the difference so clear between the two, thank you to all!

sunfish
10-21-2013, 05:51 PM
If I guess properly would I be right if I said the two on the namwah are water suckers and the one on the Caligold is a Sword?

These are the pups that's on my dwarf namwah

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/egk0321/bananas/dnamwahpup1_zpsb246a259.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/egk0321/bananas/dnamwahpup2_zpse8ae0eab.jpg

This is the one on the Caligold:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/egk0321/bananas/caligoldpup1_zps3f18402b.jpg

I think the middle pic is a beer pup

sunfish
10-21-2013, 05:52 PM
Since my main p-stems died off due a freeze last winter and most/all of what came up in the spring were water instead of swords, would it be better to separate them and plant separately, leave them as is or cut all but the largest water down on each?

Love the pictures that make the difference so clear between the two, thank you to all!

Doesn't matter either way

at2wooden
11-20-2013, 01:10 PM
Very helpful thread. The pictures really tell the tale.

eddiemunozep
12-19-2013, 03:43 PM
They tend to grow well and look nice as small plants because they get true leaves earlier than the sword suckers, but have less well developed root systems and seem to lack vigor throughout their life cycle, in my experience. Remove them and use as ornamentals, but not for fruit production. These are both about 6-8" tall - one obviously looks like a little banana plant (water sucker), and the other will be much taller before it has any true leaves (sword).

http://webebananas.com/bpix/BP950-68.jpg

Do all varieties have the same looking water suckers and sword suckers?

Abnshrek
12-19-2013, 04:21 PM
Do all varieties have the same looking water suckers and sword suckers?

Pretty much, some Swords I've seen can get close to 3' or more before they get a real leaf whereas the Water suckers starts out leafy.. :^)

eddiemunozep
12-19-2013, 04:28 PM
Just Just wondering since my orinoco, Rajapuri, gran nain, and dwarf red are putting out pups. If they are water suckers then I plan to remove. Do water suckers after removal and transplanting produce sword suckers?

sunfish
12-19-2013, 04:32 PM
Yes

Abnshrek
12-19-2013, 04:32 PM
Just Just wondering since my orinoco, Rajapuri, gran nain, and dwarf red are putting out pups. If they are water suckers then I plan to remove. Do water suckers after removal and transplanting produce sword suckers?

Water suckers for me just take longer to get growth but once they get big there isn't much difference.. I think KJ has a thread or an entry in a thread doing a comparison over time.. So once a water sucker gets big it can produce either kind of pup.. :^)

bananimal
12-20-2013, 12:41 AM
Yes

No.

eddiemunozep
12-20-2013, 01:20 AM
Yes or no oh well, I will try both and see what happens in a couple of years...God willing.

sunfish
12-20-2013, 10:56 AM
Yes or no oh well, I will try both and see what happens in a couple of years...God willing.

I'm not sure if he is in a club but


http://www.bananas.org/f2/water-suckers-5285-3.html#post79971

jbyrd88888
07-17-2014, 04:17 PM
http://i59.tinypic.com/2ngbpkl.jpg
Baby naners!!! This is my D. Puerto Rican Plantain, currently sending up it's sixth pup. My basjoo is pupping like is just ate a huge meal but none of my other bananas are doing much besides shooting leafs. I figured this is the result of my last few leafs getting stuck as the new leaf was being sent up but the last leaf unrolled fine.
I don't think a sword is anywhere in my near future.

Hammocked Banana
07-17-2014, 05:06 PM
Funny, bc those all look more sword than water suckers to me.

ifnull
11-06-2014, 01:37 AM
Funny, bc those all look more sword than water suckers to me.

I was thinking the same thing.

ifnull
11-06-2014, 01:46 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what these red things are. These are Dwarf Namwahs. I have had them for 4 yrs and never seen anything like this.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7468/15102621044_7f7e32d8ec.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/p1yT51)

jbyrd88888
11-06-2014, 01:50 AM
Indeed they Are swords... as a matter of fact: Surprisingly to me all my my cultivars with a "A" Genotype produced swordsssssss... I'm just hoping winter will not surprise me again...

Just figured I should post a pic since the last post was on 12-20-2013, 10:56 AM yada yada :)

Your red thingys are super swords from my research ;).. well they seem stronger and faster IMO. Heavy fertilized maybe awhile ago?

ifnull
11-06-2014, 02:00 AM
Indeed they Are swords... as a matter of fact: Surprisingly to me all my my cultivars with a "A" Genotype produced swordsssssss... I'm just hoping winter will not surprise me again...

Just figured I should post a pic since the last post was on 12-20-2013, 10:56 AM yada yada :)

Your red thingys are super swords from my research ;).. well they seem stronger and faster IMO. Heavy fertilized maybe awhile ago?

Yup. I over fertilized a couple months ago. :)

Snarkie
06-08-2015, 07:50 AM
It would appear that all of my pups are water suckers, but being ornamental anyway, it's no really big deal then.

Very informative thread. Thanks for stickying!

xeriscape8321
07-01-2015, 04:50 PM
Great thread...pictures speak a thousand words...learned a lot here, Thanks!

Zeebie
02-21-2016, 01:31 AM
I learned quite a bit.

Today i did pull a water sucker off one of my plants (its leaves where three times larger and boarder than the other suckers of its size)
However the root system in it was huge and i saw previously in the thread that they are meant to have a small root system?

I should probably mention i got all sword suckers off plants that where in full sun and the water sucker off a plant that was in a half-sun area.

Richard
02-22-2016, 03:25 AM
Water suckers do not occur on plants grown with sufficient resources.

Mroberts45
08-27-2016, 08:25 PM
I have a dwarf California banana and the main plant just wilted and all,of its leaves look like they got burnt, but the what from the discussion above appears to be a water sucker. The question is if it continues to grow will it ever produce fruit? Or will it just grow? It is an attractive plant.

venturabananas
08-27-2016, 08:33 PM
... appears to be a water sucker. The question is if it continues to grow will it ever produce fruit? Or will it just grow? It is an attractive plant.

Yes. Water suckers are genetically identical to sword suckers. They might make less fruit or take longer to fruit, but they will fruit.

Raineman
10-15-2016, 01:18 AM
Alright, so I've read through this start to finish (and just went through it again looking for a specific term...that I couldn't find :/) and I have a few questions now:

1) I just separated/repotted (and put indoors) a ice cream water sucker that I waited to let grow to ~3ft tall...and then I was watching youtube videos and saw something I hadn't seen before where a guy swore by the need to let the pup's cut corm "heal" before planting it....I did not do this obviously. Anyone heard of this? Do you do it?

2) That term I was looking for started with an "R" and I think it's another word for a pup or a mat?!

3) I saw someone mention the ability to "force" a healthy plant to throw out pups...how does one do that?

4) another poster mentioned, with quite an air of finality I might add, that they only throw off pups when they're distressed....which seems to go against everything else I've read and watched?

5) those "super pups".....whoa....that's just from "over-fertilising?"

6) I live in vegas...winter isn't terrible here...maybe 10-15 nights below freezing...should I "winterize" my plants, and how far? I've seen people take it down to just the p-stem, some leave the cigar leaf (or part of it), and some leave it all and just put up the mulch/fencing. Thoughts? Also, they're currently all in containers - my thought because I'm a-cheap and b-lazy is just to stop watering them when it gets cold and put them in my garage...?

Thanks ahead of time!

Mroberts45
10-15-2016, 06:03 AM
Hopefully someone with more experience can answer. I just moved all of mine under a gazebo and wrapped the gazebo in a plastic sheet tarp, made a door and gave them a grow light on a timer and a heater to keep the temperature fairly normal. But I live in Maryland and later in the season we will have fairly extreme temperatures.

venturabananas
10-15-2016, 11:37 AM
1) I just separated/repotted (and put indoors) a ice cream water sucker that I waited to let grow to ~3ft tall...and then I was watching youtube videos and saw something I hadn't seen before where a guy swore by the need to let the pup's cut corm "heal" before planting it....I did not do this obviously. Anyone heard of this? Do you do it?

3) I saw someone mention the ability to "force" a healthy plant to throw out pups...how does one do that?

4) another poster mentioned, with quite an air of finality I might add, that they only throw off pups when they're distressed....which seems to go against everything else I've read and watched?


1) The idea here is that a fresh wound is potential site of infection, etc. I suspect whether this matters depends on a lot of things, climate, local diseases and pests, etc. Personally, I split the line: I plant freshly separated pups in only slightly moist soil or potting mix as quickly as possible, and wait until the next day to thoroughly water them in. I'm trying to keep live roots alive and yet give the wound a chance to heal a bit. I'm not saying that is the definitive way to do it, but that's what I do. I also don't live in the tropics where there are corm weevils, nematodes, etc.

3) You can sometimes force pupping by crowding a banana plant in a container or providing less than optimal conditions; or sometimes chopping the top off a plant will do it; or destroy the meristem.

4) A distressed plant where something bad has happened to the meristem (the growth point at the top of the corm) will often respond by sending up pups from around the outside of the corm. Unless it's gone too far and the entire corm is dying. Happy plants will obviously pup, but for some varieties you will have to wait a long time because they are genetically programmed to pup late in their growth cycle (i.e., close to flowering). And some varieties pup much less than others, and distressing them could make them produce more pups than they otherwise would, at a cost to the "mother" plant.

Zombie Dave
11-05-2016, 10:57 PM
Here is an example of the huge difference in root development and corm size between water and sword suckers. Both are Goldfinger pups removed at the same time from the same parent plant.

http://webebananas.com/bpix/BP954-08.jpg

So when buying a plant that's been potted from a Nursery or individual is there a way to tell which one you received?

Dalmatiansoap
11-06-2016, 06:24 AM
Most of potted nursery plants are TC and they are IMO much better choice. Course, thats if you dont know the seller in person, becouse the best plants comes from members here.
:woohoonaner:

Zombie Dave
11-06-2016, 07:59 AM
That's what I need to purchase! I really want several but I'd like to know what I'm getting and my first two I have no clue what I have.

Juicy Bananas
11-07-2016, 12:21 AM
Often times when I have water suckers coming up something is wrong. My Ice Cream, which was several years old, was sending out keiki very quickly. After digging it up & cutting into the corm did I find the problem. Weevils.

This year I may have the same issue. The eldest mat now, Dwarf Chinese, is sending out numerous water suckers. Time to dig it up & salvage what is available. It is better to find nanners that are resistant to these things.

Zombie Dave
11-07-2016, 11:09 AM
I've got a lot to learn. I'm writing down these terms to learn what they mean. Good info though for sure.

MarySue
11-12-2016, 04:41 PM
Here is an example of the huge difference in root development and corm size between water and sword suckers. Both are Goldfinger pups removed at the same time from the same parent plant.

http://webebananas.com/bpix/BP954-08.jpg

Please forgive my ignorance but I am assuming the sword sucker in the picture is on the right? I have a number of these on my basjoo and I want to know when I should separate them from the mom. I want to be able to eventually transplant them when the time is appropriate. I live in southern Illinois, zone 6a, no frost or freezing yet but will soon. I plan to leave my moms in the ground after cutting down to 12" and mulching heavily.

Do I separate the pups now or do I wait until spring? I would like to transplant them directly in the ground in the spring if it is advisable. Thanks so much for any info...oh yea, exactly what is a pstem?

sputinc7
11-12-2016, 06:00 PM
A Pstem is short for pseudostem, it's your banana plant's stalk.
Unless they are musa basjoo, forget leaving them in the ground as they will most likely never make it thru an Illinois winter...(Although in Central Illinois several years ago I did have a few unprotected gladiolus make it thru a winter there. It was a very mild winter, though.)

MarySue
11-12-2016, 07:56 PM
A Pstem is short for pseudostem, it's your banana plant's stalk.
Unless they are musa basjoo, forget leaving them in the ground as they will most likely never make it thru an Illinois winter...(Although in Central Illinois several years ago I did have a few unprotected gladiolus make it thru a winter there. It was a very mild winter, though.)

My plants are musa basjoo. Planning on using mulch, straw and Styrofoam box. When should I separate the pups tho? Thanks

Snarkie
11-13-2016, 07:26 AM
I would think that if you whack them off now, it will stress the plant over the winter, particularly the pups, but I could be wrong. I'm going to leave all of mine in place over the winter and separate next spring.

PR-Giants
11-13-2016, 08:53 AM
Wow.... some great info in this thread!!!:woohoonaner:

Pups from most cultivars can be removed successfully regardless of size, with roots or without when given the proper care and conditions.

:08:
Hopefully the Manini on top will be as beautiful as the photo below it.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=56199 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=56199)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=52654 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=52654)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=56200 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=56200)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=56201 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=56201)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=52875 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=52875)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=53019 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=53019)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=53020 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=53020)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50779 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50779)

PR-Giants
11-19-2016, 06:03 PM
Some vigorous suckers

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=52283 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=52283)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=51704 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=51704)

Mark Dragt
11-20-2016, 12:06 AM
Like always Keith, your pictures are amazing!
:nanadrink:

PR-Giants
11-20-2016, 07:53 AM
I've grown thousands of Water Suckers and have always had great success with them. Most of the largest plant crop bunches I've grown were produced by Water Suckers and they consistently produce heavier bunches than the large Sword Suckers do. About the only thing that might be considered negative is that they do need to be potted up and grown out a little before planting in the field.


My largest Manini bunch and fruit were produced by Water Suckers.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=57078 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=57078)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=57152 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=57152)

My largest African Rhino Horn bunch and fruit were also produced by Water Suckers.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=51246&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=51246)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=57176 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=57176)

Snarkie
11-20-2016, 08:41 AM
Forget the corms. I want those Halves! Are you a stacker?

I've got the Walking Liberty, Kennedy and the one with the moon/Liberty Bell.

HMelendez
11-20-2016, 10:38 AM
Thank you Keith for the amazing eye candy pictures!....

JBijl
11-20-2016, 11:31 AM
Nice African Rhino Horn one of the musa i am looking for.
Thanks for the nice pics

Mark Dragt
11-20-2016, 06:04 PM
Nice African Rhino Horn one of the musa i am looking for.
Thanks for the nice pics

I bet PR-Giants can hook you up with a African Rhino Horn. Send Keith a pm.
:woohoonaner:

Snarkie
11-21-2016, 08:26 AM
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=57152 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=57152)



vvv This is my collection. :D vvv

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=60899 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=60899&ppuser=19953)

JBijl
11-21-2016, 12:21 PM
I bet PR-Giants can hook you up with a African Rhino Horn. Send Keith a pm.
:woohoonaner:

Hello Mark
I have alredy askt some persons here for musa's.
But du to Internationale rule they will not ship to me.

Mark Dragt
11-21-2016, 03:47 PM
Hello Mark
I have alredy askt some persons here for musa's.
But du to Internationale rule they will not ship to me.

Sorry about that. I hope you find one.
:nanadrink:

Snarkie
11-21-2016, 04:40 PM
Hello Mark
I have alredy askt some persons here for musa's.
But du to Internationale rule they will not ship to me.Stupid UN. Where are you?

bananimal
11-23-2016, 08:59 AM
I bet PR-Giants can hook you up with a African Rhino Horn. Send Keith a pm.
:woohoonaner:

So can Home Despot. Earlier this year I spotted a 1 ft tall pup at the HD in Ft Pierce. Printed ID tag and all. It's growing out in a Jackpot now.

Been checking - no more since then.

Dan

Kat2
11-23-2016, 03:11 PM
Now I'm jealous because I have never had a water sucker! Apparently I'm doing this musa thing all wrong.

Hammocked Banana
11-23-2016, 03:15 PM
....or apparently you're doing things all right!

PR-Giants
11-27-2016, 07:34 AM
....or apparently you're doing things all right!

...it depends on what you're trying to do.

If you wanted to produce hundreds of pups from a single plant, it's quicker and easier to do with water suckers.

If you wanted to walk across a Continent or paddle across an Ocean then a sword sucker would be better.

:woohoonaner:

What's great about water pups is that you can create as many as you want, here's a 5 pup litter I made.

And the single connection point to the mother plant for all 5 pups is smaller than a dime.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=51797 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=51797)

PR-Giants
04-23-2017, 09:59 AM
With so many members growing tetraploids when I ran across a water sucker I made sure to save it. This past week it put up it's paddle leaf so we should know soon if this one bears fruit. :ha:

:woohoonaner:

PR-Giants
04-24-2017, 08:48 AM
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=51705 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=51705)

PR-Giants
04-25-2017, 08:58 AM
3 Hands so far... :woohoonaner:

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=56968 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=56968)

PR-Giants
04-26-2017, 07:47 AM
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=52616 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=52616)

PR-Giants
04-26-2017, 03:45 PM
WoW top hand about 30 fingers... this bunch is going way over 100 pounds. :08:

Water pups are kinda like shelter puppies, provide them a home and care, they'll aim to please. :waving:

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50576 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50576)

PR-Giants
04-28-2017, 08:18 AM
13 hands so far :woohoonaner:

For members that have difficulties counting here's an easy tip.

Start at the bract where the next hand should be, that will be zero.

Hands are aligned in three parallel spirals so it is only necessary to count one of the spirals

So starting at zero go up one level and move a little to the left, that will be three, one for each spiral.

The next will be six then nine and twelve.

In the photo you can be sure of twelve hands but are unable to see the top had which is not in view and in this case makes thirteen.


http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=51992 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=51992)

PR-Giants
04-28-2017, 08:50 AM
A common way of increasing yield is to use offshoots from highly productive plants so if there are any members that are interested in a sword pup from this highly productive giant water sucker banana plant I can do some type of contest and give away a free sword pup.

:woohoonaner:

PR-Giants
04-28-2017, 02:44 PM
14 hands :woohoonaner:

Danounet
04-29-2017, 02:35 PM
A common way of increasing yield is to use offshoots from highly productive plants so if there are any members that are interested in a sword pup from this highly productive giant water sucker banana plant I can do some type of contest and give away a free sword pup.

:woohoonaner:

What kind of Banana is that?

nice bunch :ha:

aruzinsky
08-21-2017, 10:14 AM
There is no genetic difference between sword and water suckers.

True, but there is a phenomenon called "epigenetics" that could explain long term differences between water and sword suckers. See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

I only mention this because it contradicts common sense.

venturabananas
08-21-2017, 10:40 AM
True, but there is a phenomenon called "epigenetics" that could explain long term differences between water and sword suckers. See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

I only mention this because it contradicts common sense.

Good point. But from everything I've read and seen, that is not the case with water suckers -- plants propagated from them eventually do just as well, though it might take until the next ratoon until any initial differences disappear.

Tytaylor77
08-22-2017, 06:40 AM
I have noticed no difference. If there is a genetic change in the clone then why does the water sucker grow up to produce sword suckers? Wouldn't it's DNA be changed and make all water suckers?

I agree water suckers grow way slower than swords but end up being a good plant. I only get water suckers from very young plants and under fertilized plants.

Akula
08-30-2017, 09:22 PM
Do suckers (water or sword) inherit the root structure of the parent if not separated from the parent and the parent Pstem dies after fruiting?

Richard
08-30-2017, 09:54 PM
As I've said several times in this thread, "water suckers" are the result of horticulture practice and have no bearing on the quality of the plant. Instead, they represent poor practices of the gardener.

aruzinsky
08-31-2017, 08:28 AM
As I've said several times in this thread, "water suckers" are the result of horticulture practice and have no bearing on the quality of the plant. Instead, they represent poor practices of the gardener.

If the aforementioned "poor practices" produce equal "quality of the plant," why are they poor?

venturabananas
08-31-2017, 10:00 AM
Do suckers (water or sword) inherit the root structure of the parent if not separated from the parent and the parent Pstem dies after fruiting?

From what I've seen in digging plants up, no, not really, at least once the sucker is an adult size plant. Prior to that, yes, the suckers are getting nutrients and water from the mother corm, plus their own roots. Maybe someone with more formal training on how banana plants work could chime in, like Gabe. By the time a sucker is approaching fruiting size, often the mother corm it is attached to is already dead or dying.

venturabananas
08-31-2017, 10:04 AM
If the aforementioned "poor practices" produce equal "quality of the plant," why are they poor?

In short, a banana mat that is not growing well will produce more water suckers than will one that is growing well. On mats that are growing well, you seldom see water suckers, and those are usually on small bits of corm that somehow got isolated from the rest of the corm and root system -- e.g., by removing pups in between the main portion of the plant and a small piece of corm beyond it.

aruzinsky
08-31-2017, 12:13 PM
In short, a banana mat that is not growing well will produce more water suckers than will one that is growing well. On mats that are growing well, you seldom see water suckers, and those are usually on small bits of corm that somehow got isolated from the rest of the corm and root system -- e.g., by removing pups in between the main portion of the plant and a small piece of corm beyond it.

Is the total number of suckers affected? If the growing practice that causes water suckers produces more suckers than the practice that produces sword suckers and the objective is to reproduce as many plants as possible, then the prior growing practice is preferable.

venturabananas
08-31-2017, 10:47 PM
Is the total number of suckers affected? If the growing practice that causes water suckers produces more suckers than the practice that produces sword suckers and the objective is to reproduce as many plants as possible, then the prior growing practice is preferable.

I should have said proportionally more -- of those produced, more will be water suckers on an unhappy mat than on a happy one. Overall, more suckers will be produced on a well cared for mat than an unhappy one, in my experience.

Tytaylor77
09-01-2017, 04:47 AM
I agree with Mark (Venturabananas) 100%. In my experience he is correct!

Richard is also 100% correct!

I will add one thing! If you have a new plant, when it first produces pups they will usually be small/slow growing water suckers. It has nothing to do with growing conditions. It's just a small mother plant and that's what they do. Once the mother plant gets a little larger it will/should produce all sword suckers. And usually the more mature the mom/mat gets it should produce better quality sword suckers.

aruzinsky
09-01-2017, 01:03 PM
Let's back up. Are we talking about Musa, in general, or only about descendants of Musa acuminate and/or Musa balbisiana? Although I never paid much attention to the appearance of suckers, I don't remember ever seeing sword suckers on other species.

In this photo, left to right, are suckers on my potted M. Basjoo, M. 'Little Prince' and M. 'Truly Tiny':

http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/SuckersBasjooLittlePrinceTrulyTiny9-1-17.jpg

As you can see, the Basjoo has a water sucker whereas 'Little Prince' and 'Truly Tiny' have sword suckers. All were given the same growing conditions.

aruzinsky
09-03-2017, 10:28 AM
I was wrong about M. Basjoo not producing sword suckers. Yesterday, I found sword suckers on a M. Bajoo in Proksa Park, Berwyn, Illinois:

http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/SwordSuckersMBajooProksaPark8-1-17.jpg

http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/MBajooProksaPark8-1-17.jpg

But, I submit that the water sucker on my M. Basjoo is the result of my plant being either genetically or epigentically defective rather than growth practice. Most likely, I was sold a genetically defective runt out of a group of seedlings. This is the second M. Basjoo plant that I purchased and the first was a more vigorous grower. The first survived three years outdoors (zone 5). Sorry, I don't remember where I purchased the plants. I remember that one seller was Stokes Tropicals but I don't remember whether I bought the first or second Basjoo from them.

Regarding the possibility that my present plant is epigeneticaly defective, my present plant is a water sucker of a water sucker of a water sucker of a water sucker ....

mkweekley
10-21-2017, 01:08 AM
Banana Gallery - Nanas in Atlanta (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62539&size=big&cat=)

Just an example.

Gabe15
12-27-2017, 12:41 PM
Here is another example photo I took the other day to show some differences between sword suckers and water suckers. This is the same cultivar, and the shoots are approximately the same age and size. The one on the left is a standard "sword sucker" preferred for direct transplanting in the field, and on the right is more of "water sucker", however, other water suckers can be even more slender with less of a corm than this one has, so maybe it is somewhere else on the spectrum, but closer to a classic "water sucker". As you can see, the corm on the sword sucker is much more developed which suits it better for instantly replanting somewhere else in the ground, whereas the water sucker has a much smaller corm. However, in my experience water suckers really have no disadvantages if they are potted and rooted in the nursery prior to field planting, and I believe the notion that they are inferior planting material comes from the old plantation days when everything was planted from field dug suckers and even holes in the field were filled with suckers from other mats, and because of the lack of modern irrigation practices and the competition between plants, smaller water suckers would no establish and compete as well. However, you only need to look at tissue cultured plantlets to see that they are the ultimate weak and puny water suckers, and with proper care before outplanting, they do just fine and are now industry standard.

As Keith mentioned earlier in this thread, any size sucker can be separated and rooted and grown into healthy plants, they just require proper care. If given the choice, I normally prefer to propagate from the smallest suckers I can find because they are easy to separate and clean, and when you root them in the nursery you have total control over their health from a very young age, and by the time you plant them out in the field they are well rooted and ready to explode in growth. Especially if I am collecting new varieties when traveling, I look for water suckers as they take up so much less bulk during transit.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c4IzGK6iqJYuZYm0YA3X1a91ISbucocj6kJ2mu4_HxxaSZIMlnipBHbNx2P5iP0s Lg3LhNDTTojn0YAEQMxITSDjZnIwpQ0pRhliIL__UjjY_iAvcfniMBFJCAUJDDr4 LE4pXRZeM6LNwtkBQfk-aC7tWb5exC4mVSLrzBjbdSEOcwmGBAWFKOTV94pXsAdnx0RiNIB-hezH1zFrqtjlsAP_azCLEuGwi-BlmID66ZD0y3OzhzKx69FtNXpCMvDUNCk6IOyafIzJAhZEx2oUqvmegkij2XhUb0 aOZf70GbgJtScTVoSs_OxZWwYMB2UrihNHHJRWt1Kt2uUGf9unbEc6YVO5i_8Evn 58xho71jlQU0HoxHjasulAY6dIichs-pmG0FkEKzgeQHC33sQWB1V1PyjVlWElHv8USPZx_-NQk-qfWzg2ang__1YIT6kSXq0e4nE2-qb1c6CjX6nxjer9xdS14hKGNSoyVeawvhdY-k_mfiGnEcdE3ZpK_xkurvrtUlNjItfmyj9w9b1Zm38tuJ97WKeFrR2fBQ_IOThGO pWgR-4d9QKOpEgIvBeoYKxN3qZEvOVsfM7BF75En7j6bO1xc88xU0SKudA=w525-h699-no

Kanana
12-31-2017, 03:51 PM
Gabe15, pics do not work.

Stonefox
01-09-2018, 03:47 AM
I always let the water pups grow and pulled out the sword pups because they looked different, no wonder I am struggling to get bunches!

pjkfarm
02-02-2019, 11:05 AM
Snc asked a question as to whether the sword or water suckers (either or both) would reduce the growth of the momma? Does it make a difference if one leaves them to form a patch or transplant? We have like 5 suckers (all sword) on one plant and I would think that as they are all squished together, they would have limited nutrition if left.

pjkfarm
02-02-2019, 11:07 AM
Snc had a question I have as well - do the suckers, either sword or water, or both, reduce growth of mom? We have one plant with 5 big swords and they are all squished together - seems like nutrition for mom (and swords) would be less if all left together.

venturabananas
02-02-2019, 01:34 PM
Snc had a question I have as well - do the suckers, either sword or water, or both, reduce growth of mom? We have one plant with 5 big swords and they are all squished together - seems like nutrition for mom (and swords) would be less if all left together.

With that many suckers, sword or water, yes, growth of mom is likely going to be slowed. Slowed growth will result from insufficient light (shading by the suckers when the get older), water, or nutrients for mom. You can solve the water and nutrient limitation by pouring them on, but shading can only be solved by removing or topping the suckers. But keep in mind that not everyone cares about maximum growth or production of the mother plant. You might want the production spread among multiple pseudostems to ensure a more consistent production of bananas rather than a glut and then a drought of bananas. And a mat with multiple pseudostems generally stands up to wind and other bad weather better than a single pseudostem.

Akula
02-02-2019, 01:49 PM
Snc had a question I have as well - do the suckers, either sword or water, or both, reduce growth of mom? We have one plant with 5 big swords and they are all squished together - seems like nutrition for mom (and swords) would be less if all left together.

Yes. Pups draw off resources from the mother. If your goal is to obtain fruit then its advised to maintain only one fruiting plant each season and one pup which will be the fruiting plant in the next season. This is a high maintenance system (constant removal of suckers i.e. "suck the energy from the fruiting plant") that works for many of us in marginal areas including myself.

pjkfarm
02-06-2019, 10:04 AM
GAbe - great description. Our banana person (has a plantation in Mexico - commercial small scale farming) - looked at our suckers and rejected even the sword suckers based on their relatively small pseudostems at ground level - he will be transplanting them for foliage plants, but says we need to take better care of momma to get "good" swords.w of the water suckers vs sword suckers was pretty much the same in that he was looking at the stem at grorund level and if not big and bulging, was not happy with it. I need to ask again. He is also planting our dug up corms which have dried all winter - he will be chopping off all the pups but not the bulges which are future pups (on the Aroids if we want something really big, we even chop off the "bulges" to limit the number of pjups it puts out.)

pjkfarm
02-06-2019, 10:23 AM
GAbe - great description. Our banana person (has a plantation in Mexico - commercial small scale farming) - looked at our suckers and rejected even the sword suckers based on their relatively small pseudostems at ground level - he will be transplanting them for foliage plants, but says we need to take better care of momma to get "good" swords.w of the water suckers vs sword suckers was pretty much the same in that he was looking at the stem at ground level and if not big and bulging, was not happy with it. I need to ask again. He is also planting our dug up corms which have dried all winter - he will be chopping off all the pups but not the bulges which are future pups (on the Aroids if we want something really big, we even chop off the "bulges" to limit the number of pups it puts out.)

PR-Giants
05-21-2019, 02:05 PM
There's a lot of misinformation in this thread. :lurk:

It would have been nice to see one of the junior experts realize this without Gabe having to point this out.




However, in my experience water suckers really have no disadvantages ...


As Keith mentioned earlier in this thread, any size sucker can be separated and rooted and grown into healthy plants, they just require proper care.



This is important to understand and it also explains some of the misinformation in this thread



I normally prefer to propagate from the smallest suckers I can find ...

you have total control over their health from a very young age, and by the time you plant them out in the field they are well rooted and ready to explode in growth.

For experienced growers having "total control over their health from a very young age" is a good thing.

For less experienced growers having "total control over their health from a very young age" could be a bad thing which then leads to all these nonsense posts about water suckers being inferior.

If you do not properly care for the water suckers because you believe them to be inferior, then they will not perform well but that is a self-fullfilling prophecy.


:woohoonaner:


I also prefer to propagate from the smallest suckers I can find and that includes water suckers because they produce larger bunches than large sword suckers.

:08: Here's an easy example to understand and you'll see that this small water sucker produced a bunch more than 3 times larger than what the local United States Tropical Research Station averages. This water sucker produced a plant that was shorter than what the research station averages but the pseudostem was more than twice as fat. Most of our bunches are larger than the local research station and that's mainly because they rely on chemical fertilizers and we do not. We rely solely on top mulch for feeding our bananas.

A friend sent me this large Dwarf Orinoco sword sucker after I specifically asked for a small sucker. I waited for large sword sucker to produced an offshoot which turned out to be the water sucker with the red arrow pointed at it and that is the banana I grew. I removed all of the following suckers and when it was developed enough the mother plant was removed.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=51007 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=51007)

Huge suckers are low quality planting material and produce small bunches compared to what a small sucker would produce under proper growing conditions. This is my first time growing an Orinoco and wanted the first bunch to be very large so I decided to grow the water sucker in the photo with the red arrow.

I got this huge Dwarf Orinoco on a trade and planted it on the ground today. :woohoonaner:

Can't wait to make some traditional alcapurria. :08:

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50467 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50467)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=52225 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=52225)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=51171 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=51171)

venturabananas
05-21-2019, 02:21 PM
Keith, do you directly plant in the field any of the suckers you harvest right after removing them? Or do you pot them up and grow them out for a while before transplanting to the field?

PR-Giants
08-11-2019, 11:59 AM
Keith, do you directly plant in the field any of the suckers you harvest right after removing them? Or do you pot them up and grow them out for a while before transplanting to the field?

Sometimes we'll plant directly in the field and sometimes we pot them up. What is important is that they receive proper care regardless of where they are planted.

Here is a photo of a couple variegated Manini nubs/seeds, their health is dependent upon receiving proper care not on where they are planted. They can do just as well planted directly in the field as they can do in a pot.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=53095 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=53095)

cincinnana
08-15-2019, 06:33 PM
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