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louis14
04-03-2018, 07:19 AM
I thought I would keep the forum informed of our first trials at macro propagation.
We have built two wooden boxes in 2m x 1m
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62912 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62912&ppuser=26930)
and lined the bottom and sides with a sheet of black 300 micron LDPE, filled the box with 30 kgs of sawdust and positioned about 30 pared corms of Thai variety Kluai Hom (Gros Michel)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62910 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62910&ppuser=26930)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62911 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62911&ppuser=26930)

We started this 8 days ago. The sawdust is being kept nice and damp, initially given three watering cans H2O and this is the dosage we are giving every three days now. The boxes are covered with clear 150 micron PE sheet, tied down with string.
Yesterday, I checked the corms. It's nice and hot and damp in the boxes, outside afternoon temperature is 40C right now. A few had dominant buds growing which I promptly killed. Some have already developped new roots which are 5cm long and showing up on the surface of the sawdust.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62909 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62909&ppuser=26930)
We have built another two boxes now and will start the same process with Kluai Namwah as soon as the corms become available.
For both varieties, we are using large corms, about 15cm in diameter.
I'll will keep you updated on developments.

Akula
04-03-2018, 10:58 AM
Pardon my ignorance but what is the source of the corns? Are they from pups that you dug up or are they shaved off of a donor plant? Will you divide them again once they get established in the box and put out some roots?

Thanks for sharing your technique. Very interesting. Good luck!

louis14
04-03-2018, 11:27 AM
They are pared corms from pups we dig up in our plantation.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62855 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62749&ppuser=26930)
They are not to be divided. The dominant buds are killed and the roots are shaved when the corms are pared
If all works properly each corm should shoot up to a dozen new baby clones that will grow on the edges of the corm and that will later be detached from the corm and allowed to develop independently into fully functional banana plants.

edwmax
04-03-2018, 08:21 PM
Does the black LDPE allow excess water to drain from the bottom of the box ? Would you show us a picture of the prepared corm?

louis14
04-03-2018, 09:07 PM
Does the black LDPE allow excess water to drain from the bottom of the box ? Would you show us a picture of the prepared corm?

We did not include holes in the LDPE lining to drain excess water, there is a lot of sawdust in there, very absorbent. The watering is carefully done, I think holes would accelerate drying, I have no reason to wish to accelerate drying of the sawdust.

I'll make a photo of the next corm we prepare and post it. I am sure there are improvements to be made on that job.

:nanadrink:

MediaHound
04-04-2018, 03:43 PM
Great project! Wishing you the best of success! Looking forward to seeing and reading more of your posts.

louis14
04-06-2018, 05:15 AM
Here are a load of pics of the corms taken today (12 days in the boxes)

They are looking well!

Should I continue killing any dominant buds still pushing up?

There are white roots crawling all over the sawdust!

Any informed advice is most welcome

Tomorow, we will make a box of Namwah corms, so I will take photos of the pared corms and post them here.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62927&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62927&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62926&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62926&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62924&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62924&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62923&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62923&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62922&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62922&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62921&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62921&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62920 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62920&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62919 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62919&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62918 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62918&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62917 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62917&ppuser=26930)

edwmax
04-06-2018, 06:00 AM
Thanks for the update. ... I found his artificial article from the ECHO Community which gives in detail ( more then other references) how to prepare the corm. ... https://www.echocommunity.org/en/resources/691e1577-c4cb-4093-a72a-6c2bc23377c5/download ...

As for the water draining from the bottom of the humidity chamber, the above artificial does indicate the bottom should be well draining and the sawdust should only be damp. So be careful how much water is added to your chamber.

louis14
04-06-2018, 06:42 AM
Thanks for the update. ... I found his artificial from the ECHO Community which gives in detail ( more then other references) how to prepare the corm. ... https://www.echocommunity.org/en/resources/691e1577-c4cb-4093-a72a-6c2bc23377c5/download ...

As for the water draining from the bottom of the humidity chamber, the above artificial does indicate the bottom should be well draining and the sawdust should only be damp. So be careful how much water is added to your chamber.

Many thanks for the article, I have read it through twice. We are in line with what they recommend although they have more of a lab approach with some steps I find not so practical or useful when doing this in a large scale.
They also do not mention canceling already existing secondary buds on the corms while paring, when this is mentionned in other articles I have read.
Anyway, well noted and nice to get some confirmations
It would seems everything in proceeding nicely. :nanadrink:

edwmax
04-06-2018, 08:09 AM
This is interesting to me because I need to increase the numbers of a couple of my nana varieties this year. I was already making plans when you posted this thread. The procedure i had download and studied last year. ... However, I would be doing this on a smaller scale than yours using 2 or 3 corms in a nursery pot or smaller box as the humidity chamber and there would be no need of 2nd or 3rd cycles with the plantlets on my part. Just a few dozen plantlets from each corm is more than enough as i understand one corm can/may produce up to 100 plus plantlets.

Akula
04-06-2018, 10:43 AM
Thanks Louis14!

Very cool project! Please keep updating till you get to the end! So many times people post up a rather interesting situation, condition, or project and then they don't take the post to the end/conclusion so impossible to tell whether they were successful or not in their endeavor leaving everybody hanging.

Thanks!

louis14
04-06-2018, 10:57 AM
This is interesting to me because I need to increase the numbers of a couple of my nana varieties this year. I was already making plans when you posted this thread. The procedure i had download and studied last year. ... However, I would be doing this on a smaller scale than yours using 2 or 3 corms in a nursery pot or smaller box as the humidity chamber and there would be no need of 2nd or 3rd cycles with the plantlets on my part. Just a few dozen plantlets from each corm is more than enough as i understand one corm can/may produce up to 100 plus plantlets.

The second and third cycles tech seems to be really more adapted to pure nursery work. In our case we need to fill the remaining fields in our plantation with several thousand banana plants as quickly as possible so as to double the size of our crop. If we can get even only 10 plantlets per corm it will be great. We can always make more boxes which would allow me to experiment tweaking with auxin and other compounds. What is needed is to master the technique. This does not seem too difficult to achieve in view of our local climate and the extraordinary green power of bananas.

edwmax
04-06-2018, 11:09 AM
Here are a load of pics of the corms taken today (12 days in the boxes)

They are looking well!

Should I continue killing any dominant buds still pushing up?

There are white roots crawling all over the sawdust!

Any informed advice is most welcome

Tomorow, we will make a box of Namwah corms, so I will take photos of the pared corms and post them here.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62927&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62927&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62926&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62926&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62924&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62924&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62923&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62923&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62922&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62922&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62921&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62921&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62920 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62920&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62919 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62919&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62918 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62918&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62917 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62917&ppuser=26930)


Sorry I missed the question. ... YES ... my understanding is a growing meristem will inhibit the growth of new shoots/suckers. Look at Fig 5; 6; & 7 of the reference i linked above. Don't murder the center grow point by smashing. I think this encourages rot to form. Cut a cross as shown by the reference all the way down through the bottom leaf ring. ... I think this will now cause each cut section to act independently as if the corm was split into; and thus causing multiple shoots to grow.

I think some sawdust over the top of the corms (3 or 4 cm) will help the new shoots to grow and to grow roots also. The mother corm is dying and will rot away in 2 or 3 months so the new shoots need to start root growth.

louis14
04-07-2018, 02:56 AM
Today we made a new box with Namwah corms. Here are photos of the corms being pared, as promised

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62936&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62936&ppuser=26930)
Nice, healthy and freshly dug Namwah sword suckers

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62932&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62932&ppuser=26930)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62929&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62929&ppuser=26930)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62931&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62931&ppuser=26930)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62930&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62930&ppuser=26930)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62935&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62935&ppuser=26930)
Killed apical meristem

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62934&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62934&ppuser=26930)
Pared corms

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62933&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62933&ppuser=26930)
The leftovers

Gabe15
04-07-2018, 10:11 PM
I would recommend to put drainage holes in. As the top layer evaporates (where most of the roots are), you will water more and more, but the water will collect at the bottom layer and can get very soggy and start to rot out the corms and roots. This is easily solved by drainage holes. They will not make the sawdust dry out quickly, but will allow for more even moisture throughout the medium.

I would also recommend to do a hot water bath treatment (54°C for 20min), you can fit a lot of corms in a steel drum and do relatively large batches at a time, you can also keep reheating the water and do more batches back to back. Just put the drum over a propane burner or fire and check temperature. Since you are going through all of the work to clean and pare the corms, it would be wise to ensure against corm weevils and nematodes at the same time. The paring alone does not necessarily kill all of the nematodes or weevil eggs which can be burrowed into the corm itself.

Tytaylor77
04-09-2018, 12:24 AM
Awesome work Louis! I also recommend the dipping in hot water!

I take the small plantlets and re-initiate the larger/thicker ones. Even if the small ones only have 1-2 roots they will keep rooting just repot them in sawdust. I always break off any side roots I see! If they are on or close to the top I will leave them. After 3 generations of re-initiating you will have a lot of small plantlets!

As always you can contact me anytime!
Ty

louis14
04-09-2018, 01:00 AM
Many thanks to all for the much appreciated comments.

1/This is a plantation, we aim to make a profit, no just spend and spend. The 300 micron LDPE lining, if pierced will become unusable for any other project when it is guaranteed to last 25 years, so it would be an expensive misuse to pierce it. Much simpler for us to prod into the sawdust, without moving the corms and check humidity levels before and after watering.
I have miles and miles of irrigation pipes, that has taught me that the way to save large amounts of cash is to re-use, recycle, which requires planning and non destructive practices/uses when possible.
2/ We are 100% off the grid, so boiling water, only over a fire! Not so practical! That is why we use either bleach or KMnO4, which we used on all the corms in the first three boxes.
3/ We learn by trial and error but we are not in laboratory conditions. If all first three boxes fail in one month or two, we will revise and improve our method.

(I used to pick, weigh and count nematodes from a Kg of sand kept in formalin to evaluate biomass. It was done using a binocular microscope. Precise marine lab work it was, were it not for the fact that the samples had been dredged in a less than scientific manner).

edwmax
04-09-2018, 07:35 AM
Many thanks to all for the much appreciated comments.

1/This is a plantation, we aim to make a profit, no just spend and spend. The 300 micron LDPE lining, if pierced will become unusable for any other project when it is guaranteed to last 25 years, so it would be an expensive misuse to pierce it. Much simpler for us to prod into the sawdust, without moving the corms and check humidity levels before and after watering.
....

What you could do is lay the bottom boards of the box with a spaces about 1/2 the width of you hand and cover with newspaper or thin cardboard, old fiber sacks cut open, or hardware cloth (3 6mm). Then drape the sides with the LDPE or black polyethylene plastic (cheaper). But here if the side were boarded about 1/2 way up the box, then the plastic only needs to cover the top and partway down the side.

I also think clear plastic would be a more useful for this since the boxes are under a roof and there is no direct sunlight. I don't think you need total blackout in the box. ... But I do understand you are using materials that are on hand, so I'm not criticizing. With the clear plastic you can inspect the boxes without opening the plastic. To check the humidity, you only need to see water collecting on the plastic in the early mornings and add water if there is little or no water.

I build smaller propagation boxes for use in my greenhouse. It's the same. Some plant cuttings needed to be covered for higher humidity; some don't.

Keep the pictures and updates coming! :bananas_b

edwmax
04-09-2018, 09:19 AM
oh ... here is a thought ... use banana leaves in the bottom of the propagation box ... there is plenty on hand and the cost is nought.

Tytaylor77
04-09-2018, 02:14 PM
Awesome ideas Ed. He is using clear plastic on top. The black plastic is only on bottom.

Louis I know you said you had trouble finding sawdust. Can’t remember if I told you but try rice hulls if they are easier to get! I hear they work about as good. Personally I just love playing in the sawdust haha.

Great job my friend!

edwmax
04-09-2018, 03:41 PM
oops ... your right ... it look black because of the black under the clear plastic.

louis14
04-09-2018, 08:15 PM
Awesome ideas Ed. He is using clear plastic on top. The black plastic is only on bottom.

Louis I know you said you had trouble finding sawdust. Can’t remember if I told you but try rice hulls if they are easier to get! I hear they work about as good. Personally I just love playing in the sawdust haha.

Great job my friend!

I solved the sawdust problem Ty :-), easily available now at a negligeable price from a friend who runs an organic mushroom farm. We have also started using the mix they make for their mushroom beds as soil for transplanting sword suckers into the 50 % green shade polytunnel. We mix it half and half with local soil. They seem to be doing fine. We also installed the plastic roof/sheet over the shading net last week as it has started to rain pretty hard some evenings.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62937&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62937&ppuser=26930)

louis14
04-10-2018, 12:42 AM
I suppose I should create a new post, but anyway, here is a nice example of "build it and they will come!"
One of our best day-workers, who had been off work for nearly a year as he had broken a leg, is now back in the team.
He knows a few things about preparing banana pups for transplanting and was doing his thing this morning; impressive work! :08::08::08:

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62941&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62941&ppuser=26930)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62939&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62939&ppuser=26930)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62940&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62940&ppuser=26930)

These are going into the polytunnel of course!

louis14
04-15-2018, 08:12 AM
Two of the macro propagation boxes have just finished their third week and things seem to be progressing nicely. I also think I have understood the whole process. It is quite straightforward and the next lots should be even better.
One of the corms has three well separated buds shooting out of the sawdust, a very pleasing sight indeed!

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62956&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62956)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62957&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62957)

louis14
04-21-2018, 02:34 AM
End of fourth week and this project is looking good! Today we sprayed the boxes with some light pesticide and fungicide mixed with folear NPK 20-20-20 for the first time.
Here are some pics taken today with my good macro lens

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62965&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62965)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62966&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62966)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62967&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62967)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62968&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62968)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62969&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62969)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62970&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62970)

edwmax
04-21-2018, 07:34 AM
@Louis

I see these last picture show the corms fully covered and the multiple plantlets that appear to be on the same corm. ... Are these now responding better than the first corms? And, since these were cut with a cross, has the problem of the main meristem regrowing lessened?

louis14
04-21-2018, 07:47 AM
@Louis

I see these last picture show the corms fully covered and the multiple plantlets that appear to be on the same corm. ... Are these now responding better than the first corms? And, since these were cut with a cross, has the problem of the main meristem regrowing lessened?

This is the first box, the first corms. I just covered them with more sawdust after your helping comment.

The third box, which are Namwa, all cut with a large and deep cross only are only in since 7th April, no visible growth out of the sawdust yet :nanadrink:

benzion72
04-23-2018, 07:48 AM
Well done, what is your final conclusion about the macro propagation, how many plantlet were you able to produce from each sucker. And what is the ease of rooting plantlet without root.

louis14
04-23-2018, 08:21 AM
Well done, what is your final conclusion about the macro propagation, how many plantlet were you able to produce from each sucker. And what is the ease of rooting plantlet without root.

Thanks but we cannot draw any conclusions yet as it has only been four weeks. Another four and things will decant once we have started separating plantlets. I will also inform once the third box, the Namwa start shooting up. :birthdaynana:

louis14
04-25-2018, 10:16 AM
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62977&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62977&ppuser=26930)

Week five and all is well!

Akula
04-25-2018, 12:17 PM
Looking good!

Very interesting to see the inside operations of a commercial startup operation's problems encountered, solutions, etc.

Thanks!

Tytaylor77
04-28-2018, 09:45 AM
I’ve created a monster!!

Hahaha. Looking amazing! Great Job!

louis14
04-29-2018, 07:30 PM
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62998&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62998)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62997&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62997)

We have started separating plantlets from the first box. The corms have been in the box for five weeks and many plantlets are already over a foot in size.
We cut out a chunk of corm around the base of the stem, going down the corm, catching roots when possible, if no roots available, we just take a chunk of corm. About 25 plantlets were harvested this first time round, all potted in bags and housed in the 50% green shade tent. The corms look incredibly healthy, they are hard, smell good, are full of long roots. Green power!

edwmax
04-30-2018, 06:27 AM
They look Great ....

HMelendez
05-01-2018, 05:32 AM
Louis,




Looking good!.....You are doing an awesome job!....




:2723::bananarow::2723:

louis14
05-05-2018, 04:43 AM
Another 40 plantlets collected today, on their way to the hardening tent

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=63046&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=63046&ppuser=26930)

Tytaylor77
05-07-2018, 01:08 AM
Great job Louis!

beam2050
05-07-2018, 10:32 AM
Another 40 plantlets collected today, on their way to the hardening tent

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=63046&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=63046&ppuser=26930)
luv the cart. lightweight and functional. missing the pin on the left hand side of the gate. funny someone didn't cut a greenstick or bamboo for a pin. electrical conduit? the fenders are what grab me. make it easier to load from the side.

louis14
05-10-2018, 04:25 AM
luv the cart. lightweight and functional. missing the pin on the left hand side of the gate. funny someone didn't cut a greenstick or bamboo for a pin. electrical conduit? the fenders are what grab me. make it easier to load from the side.

This one is only two years old, bought new. They do wear them down pretty quick. Locally made!

louis14
05-10-2018, 04:30 AM
Here are the first plantlets, separated five and ten days ago. The lots are sorted per bag size, not separation date. They don't look as well right now as they have. Anything wrong? Or just the normal process of acclimatization?
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=63051 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=63051&ppuser=26930)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=63052 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=63052&ppuser=26930)

They are in mixed soil/compost bags under 50% green shade, it's hot in the tent in the afternoon, around 38 C.

edwmax
05-10-2018, 06:05 AM
38°C is a bit hot for the plants and may slow growth. Your best results would be between 27°C to 32°C. ... Is the outside temp cooler than in the shade house? If so then fans can be used and possibly fine water mist (depends on humidity) to cool the inside.

I just moved my nana plants out of my greenhouse this week since night time temps are above 15°C (60°F) and I can no longer keep temps below 38°C during the day.

louis14
05-10-2018, 07:32 AM
38°C is a bit hot for the plants and may slow growth. Your best results would be between 27°C to 32°C. ... Is the outside temp cooler than in the shade house? If so then fans can be used and possibly fine water mist (depends on humidity) to cool the inside.

I just moved my nana plants out of my greenhouse this week since night time temps are above 15°C (60°F) and I can no longer keep temps below 38°C during the day.


Thanks for the suggestions :bananas_b
These are local varieties and I suppose they have to be used to these temperatures. I will open the vertical wall shading tomorow anyway to allow them to get some more breeze, just in case. Current temperature max-min are 37.4°C and 23.7°C. Current RH is in the 70% and can reach 90% if its raining.
Another factor is that these first 70 plantlets come from the experimental boxes that were basically positionned in the shade of our field shed, under a corrugated cement roof therefore. The plants are probably having to adapt to the 50% green shaded full sunshine which is basically providing more light than the plantlets received during their first couple of weeks in the boxes. New leaves need to grow, in the darker green colour to cope, I assume. I am not too worried right now as they also have to developp their root system and of course, some had more roots than others. The auxiliary buds have basically no roots at all. They have all been treated with IAA to assist with root development.
I have over a thousand pups under the same conditions in another tent and they are thriving right now.
We have built new boxes already, under the same light and temperature conditions (50% green shade, plastic HDPE roof) so I suppose the new plantlets will come out already more prepared. Interesting to note that the temperature in the new boxes is monitored 24H and reaches 45°C in the afternoon. Still OK, as according to my readings, in the C.A.R., they aim for an ideal 50°C in the box, for optimum macro-propagation.
We will be installing a water misting system in the new boxes but still need to build the frame for the solar cell as we are off the grid. Plenty to do...Not enough hands...:ha:

edwmax
05-10-2018, 11:10 AM
I find with the banana varieties I grow, that when the air temp is 32-38°C (90°'s F) misting with water several times during the day & insuring the soil is not dry the plant grows fine. But ... when the air temp is above 38°C (100%deg;F) the leaves will fold up regardless of water. The plant goes into a self preservation mode (dormant??) to retain water. ... So I just don't see air temp over 38°C desirable for bananas nor the 50%deg;C (122%deg;F) in the propagation boxes ... Can you please post a link to the C.A.R. reference?

Just watch the banana leaves when the temps are high. Open, the plant transpiration is good. Closed & folded leaves indicates transpiration has stopped and the plant is over-heating.

louis14
05-10-2018, 12:01 PM
This is a link to the PDF, it is in French, and mentioning the 50 degrees C in the propagators.
Not C.A.R. actually, New Caledonia.
I find there is more complete first hand information written in French language.


https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.arbofruits.nc/images/pdf/documents_techniques/guide_de_production_de_pif_aout_2012.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi8gsDEzvvaAhVJQY8KHdsECh0QFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3FDtjELXQpZDKJ8P86v02A

edwmax
05-10-2018, 12:43 PM
Thanks for the link. I just learned French ...:08:...

or how to google a translation anyways.

From the 10 FAQ of your link: The first two questions.

* A quoi sert l’ombrière au dessus du germoir : Elle permet d’éviter d’avoir des températu-re trop chaudes (dépassant les 50°C). Sinon, à de telles températures, les tissus de la plan-te commenceront à mourir par brûlure ou par cuisson.

English:
What is the use of the shade above the germoir: It avoids having temperature too hot (exceeding 50 ° C). Otherwise, at such temperatures, the tissues of the plant start to die by burning or cooking.


* Pourquoi la fourchette de température 25-50°C comme objectif de température ? La technique du PIF résulte de travaux de recherche effectués en Afrique de l’Ouest sur « Bananier Plantain » par le docteur KWA (CARBAP) et qui a abouti à un mode opératoire précis qui a été reproduit avec succès par l’IAC Pocquereux en conditions locales . La four-chette 25-50°C résulte des enregistrements effectués sur le dispositif testé à Pocque-reux. Monter à 50°C dans la journée sous la cloche plastique permet de ne pas redescendre les 25 ° C la nuit et de maintenir la température dans la sciure autour de 25 °C ce qui est la température de croissance optimale du bananier

English:
Why is the temperature range 25-50 ° C as a temperature target? The PIF results from research carried out in West Africa on Plantain Banana Plant" by Dr. KWA (CARBAP) and which resulted in a modus operandi which has been successfully reproduced by IAC Pocquereux in local conditions. The fork 25-50 ° C results from the recordings made on the device tested at Pocquereux. Up to 50 ° C in the day under the plastic bell can not go down the 25 ° C at night and keep the temperature in the sawdust around 25 ° C which is the optimal growth temperature of banana

I don't see this as being any different from what I have already stated. Over 50° C temps is not good for the Banana plant or corm.While 50°C is shown as the upper range limit, you really don't want to be that high. 25°C to 38 33°C is better. Over 38°C the plant stops growing; over 50°C the plant starts dying.

louis14
05-10-2018, 01:57 PM
The text clearly refers to the fact that work should be done in the morning so the propagator can reach the "target" 50 degrees in the afternoon and heat up the sawdust enough so it does not go "under" (that word is missing in the text) 25 degrees at night. "Monter à 50°C dans la journée sous la cloche plastique permet de ne pas redescendre (sous) les 25 ° C la nuit".

This does not alter the fact that our Kluai Hom Tong plantlets grow out of the sawdust, into the 45 degree air of the propagator, developing 3-4 leaves and reaching 30-40cm height within a couple of weeks, looking as healthy as can be. Of course this temperature is not constant, but putting up with such a high temperature during 4-5 hours of the day does not seem to affect plantlet development in any way.
Once more, this is based on effective growing, in natural conditions, on a functioning plantation. Any need for fans, artificial cooling of any kind would be economically unsound for this simple propagation technique which is promoted to help low income farmers.
Finally, April and May are our two hottest months, things will cool down a little after that.
I'll post a progress report on our new propagation boxes in a week or so, I am waiting for them to look good.

Tytaylor77
05-11-2018, 02:03 PM
Mine have gotten very hot in the past and it didn’t bother them. I wouldn’t recommend an exhaust or exaust fan. It could lower humidity which needs to be as high as possible.

All great ideas though!

edwmax
05-11-2018, 04:59 PM
Mine have gotten very hot in the past and it didn’t bother them. I wouldn’t recommend an exhaust or exaust fan. It could lower humidity which needs to be as high as possible.

All great ideas though!

In my greenhouse I use this MistyMate Twist & Mist Personal Misting System (http://www.hotheadz.net/misty-mate-twist-mist.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw_tTXBRBsEiwArqXyMuP_cXqMhoyKeGezfmMVAe9L fHZC_O7Xfn2fub373M4MCgdI5Jz8SRoC2gIQAvD_BwE)
in front of the blower. Also, these are available https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fan-Mister-for-outdoor-Cooling/179856735

As well as one could make his own. The micro-misters can be obtained.
.... The mister only buys me a few weeks before I have to shut down the greenhouse due to excessive heat (120° plus).

I wasn't suggesting to ventilate the propagation boxes. That's another issue as there is no way I would allow the temperature inside those boxes to be 122°F (50°C). The thermodynamics does not work that way as implied by the referenced guide. The guide clearly states in a couple of places that 25°C (77°F) is the optimum working temperature.

benzion72
05-17-2018, 12:16 PM
Awesome work Louis! I also recommend the dipping in hot water!

I take the small plantlets and re-initiate the larger/thicker ones. Even if the small ones only have 1-2 roots they will keep rooting just repot them in sawdust. I always break off any side roots I see! If they are on or close to the top I will leave them. After 3 generations of re-initiating you will have a lot of small plantlets!

As always you can contact me anytime!
Ty

Thanks TY for sharing. Please do you have any reference on Macro propagation, the last time i tried it, I had problem with rooting, the root are not just forthcoming :goteam:

louis14
05-21-2018, 03:36 PM
Just under two months since we placed twenty corms in each of the first two experimental boxes and we have now retrieved a total of 150 plantlets with another fifty still in there, too small to separate. The plantlets are cut away from the corm, including the roots or the closest root cluster of root even if this includes a chunk of corm. If there aren't any roots, I include a chunk of corm. The roots and lower stems are then soaked in water containing rooting hormone at the appropriate concentration. The plantlets are then replanted in sawdust for another couple of weeks to let then developp more roots. I have seen some grow a three inch long root overnight. I give them a lot of water at this time, keeping the sawdust nice and damp and they are doing well. The heat is intense and I do not cover them and they are kept in the shade of course.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=63072&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=63072&ppuser=26930)

Akula
05-21-2018, 04:01 PM
Is the original corn used up at this point and requires replacement with a fresh one or does it just keep producing?

Thanks! Really cool!

louis14
05-21-2018, 07:33 PM
Is the original corn used up at this point and requires replacement with a fresh one or does it just keep producing?

Thanks! Really cool!

The original corms are still producing. I have not added any new corms to these two boxes. Some of the corms are now just bits as the apical meristem kept producing and I had enough and retrieved the shoot with some corm by chopping the corm into two or more pieces. Never mind, the bits that are left, as long as there is a visible bud will still produce.
Next week, once the last fifty or so plantlets have been retrieved, I will empty the boxes out. It's important to properly kill the apical bud. :0517:

benzion72
05-22-2018, 01:48 AM
Great job I learnt somewhere you can produce up to 100 plantlets from one corm. Can you kindly show the picture of how you are cutting the plantlet from the corm and the size of corm to be cut with the plantlet. Thanks

louis14
05-22-2018, 08:35 AM
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62998&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62998)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62997&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62997)

These photos of detached plantlets are further up the thread

benzion72
05-23-2018, 09:32 AM
End of fourth week and this project is looking good! Today we sprayed the boxes with some light pesticide and fungicide mixed with folear NPK 20-20-20 for the first time.
Here are some pics taken today with my good macro lens

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62965&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62965)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62966&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62966)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62967&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62967)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62968&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62968)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62969&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62969)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62970&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62970)


Did you try reactivation of any strong plantlet as advised by some literature

louis14
05-23-2018, 01:27 PM
We did not, we look for rapid results, big plantlets quickly and we are not short of corms.

Tytaylor77
05-24-2018, 03:59 AM
Amazing job Louis! I see some mushrooms hahhaa! I checked mine one morning and they were everywhere! In every box! Hahaha. All of my stuff is sterile like yours is I’m sure. I guess the spores just blow in when the top is off. It’s pretty amazing! Lol

sddarkman619
07-14-2018, 02:13 PM
Louis and Ty, are either of you using any nutrients/fertilizer for growth aside from rooting hormones? any nitrogen added or anything? and at what point?

louis14
07-14-2018, 06:53 PM
Once the boxes are in a producing cycle, that is after the first month or so. We give them folear feeding spray of NPK 20-20-20 every fifteen days including a dose of MgSO4 and a cocktail of trace elements and calcium (liquid form). They do fine with that.

benzion72
07-23-2018, 05:52 AM
Here are the first plantlets, separated five and ten days ago. The lots are sorted per bag size, not separation date. They don't look as well right now as they have. Anything wrong? Or just the normal process of acclimatization?
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=63051 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=63051&ppuser=26930)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=63052 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=63052&ppuser=26930)

They are in mixed soil/compost bags under 50% green shade, it's hot in the tent in the afternoon, around 38 C.


Do they picked up after you observation of not looking well as they were before

benzion72
07-23-2018, 05:58 AM
Well done, Is the harvested plantlets ready for transplanting to the field now. Kindly give updates

louis14
07-23-2018, 06:03 AM
They totally pick up in the 50% shade hardening tent after a few weeks of care. After some testing we now only use 4 x 8 inch bags. I would say we have 99% success right now.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=63292&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=63292&ppuser=26930)

We have also expanded our operations in view of the successful tests

benzion72
07-24-2018, 01:34 AM
Thank you so much, you are doing a great job.

sddarkman619
09-04-2018, 03:16 PM
I have 2 types of sawdust, hardwood and softwood.
Which are you using Louis? Does it really matter?

What's the smallest corm you've been able to do this with?

louis14
09-04-2018, 09:08 PM
I have 2 types of sawdust, hardwood and softwood.
Which are you using Louis? Does it really matter?

What's the smallest corm you've been able to do this with?

We have used rubber tree sawdust successfully and red hardwood sawdust successfully. Both work for us. I would not use a corm smaller than four inches in diameter once pared.

Good luck, post some photos here of your progress if you like

sddarkman619
09-04-2018, 10:02 PM
Good luck, post some photos here of your progress if you like


So far I have 2 large corms in soil and one is putting out shoots, the other one I just did the center drilling to "kill" the merristem. My other corms in sawdust are pretty small, and are not showing any signs at all of putting anything out. I'm keeping them above 73°F. Ty said to use the biggest corms I could get and I didn't want to destroy all my stocks so some I planted to put out new plants just for experimenting.

I have 1 small bins on heating mat with sawdust, 3 corms in that bin. I have 1 pot with sawdust and 1 corm in that. All the rest are in soil. The ones in soil seem to be producing better and faster.

Some I soaked in a solution of BAP water. Some I soaked in Coconut water, a natural alternative to BAP.

So we shall see. I'm wondering if the small corms I pared them down too small.

If I remember I'll post some photos tomorrow.

sddarkman619
09-05-2018, 03:20 PM
Louis here is a post with photos as promised:
First Macropropagation experiments - Sddarkman619 - Bananas.org (http://www.bananas.org/showthread.php?p=318210#post318210)

Wish me luck.
If you see something I could do better please send me a PM.