View Full Version : Lowering transplanted sucker failure ratio
louis14
12-15-2017, 07:36 AM
https://imgur.com/a/N96ue
https://imgur.com/a/XTr17
Hello to all and thank you for accepting me on this forum. We are creating a banana plantation in northern Thailand and have already got quite a few fields on the way with 2000 plus plants in the ground, the first field already starting to fruit.
I would like to discuss how to improve the failure ratio of transplanted banana suckers of the namwa variety. For instance, we planted a new field with 400 suckers, in holes filled with a mix of our sandy soil and cow dung, the holes are spaced two meters apart, are all individually sprinkler irrigated. this was done exactly two months ago. The suckers were bathed in a solution of KMnO4 before transplanting.
Today, after inspection, the field showed a sucker failure ratio of 28% which I would like to reduce in future fields.
I would be grateful for suggestions from other experienced planters on how to improve our performance, thanks.
edwmax
12-15-2017, 08:44 AM
You should used the new member/introduction forum to introduce your self.
A number of things could be going on, so digging up a few of the 'failed' suckers to inspect their roots is recommended. ... Suckers with few and/or damaged roots will show transplant stress more & longer than those with more abundant & healthy roots. It may be those suckers needed to have been culled rather than being transplanted. ... Ask a local expert for his opinion. You haven't given a lot needed detail to really answer you question.
Now I suspect (???) the dung mixture, if fresh dung was used, should not be in direct contact with the corm & roots. Place the dung mixture in the bottom of the hole then fill in & set the sucker with the natural soil.
I'm not familiar with using KMnO4, so could some of the corms or roots be damaged/burned by the solution? I think KMnO4 solutions may be much stronger than chlorine bleach solutions.
Anyway, welcome to the forum.
louis14
12-15-2017, 09:32 AM
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated. We are dipping in the Permanganate solution at 200 ppm as recommended by FAO. I will dig up some failed suckers tomorow and dissect them and take some pictures and post them.What is the failure ratio that could be expected as normal/minimal?
Gabe15
12-15-2017, 10:55 AM
They may rot if they are too damaged after digging, a single clean cut is ideal, but can be difficult to achieve sometimes. I often leave newly separated suckers to heal for a day or two before planting as well, if you are planting them right away, you may see more failure. And lastly, 2 months may not be quite long enough to tell if something truely died, sometimes they will die back, but start again from a sucker which takes more time.
louis14
12-15-2017, 11:15 AM
Thanks for the advice. In this last field, the suckers were given a couple of days to heal, in the shade. I do agree that after two months, they could still bud from the meristem but actually when this happens, these particular plants mature much later than the rest of the crop and cause uneven fruiting time which is not ideal. We of course are compensating this by sufficient numbers in the long run. Ideally I am aiming to maximise successful growth of the original stem that was transplanted as this gives us faster maturation. So I am looking to improve the success ratio of the transplants. I do not think any of the suckers we planted last were poorly dug up, they were in fact pretty heavy and rounded at the root. Maybe too old. Maybe we should try with younger shoots but it is not always easy to get an even choice when asking for big numbers. We still have another 4000 to put in the ground so improving our performance will save $ and labor.
aruzinsky
12-15-2017, 11:40 AM
https://imgur.com/a/N96ue
https://imgur.com/a/XTr17
Hello to all and thank you for accepting me on this forum. We are creating a banana plantation in northern Thailand and have already got quite a few fields on the way with 2000 plus plants in the ground, the first field already starting to fruit.
I would like to discuss how to improve the failure ratio of transplanted banana suckers of the namwa variety. For instance, we planted a new field with 400 suckers, in holes filled with a mix of our sandy soil and cow dung, the holes are spaced two meters apart, are all individually sprinkler irrigated. this was done exactly two months ago. The suckers were bathed in a solution of KMnO4 before transplanting.
Today, after inspection, the field showed a sucker failure ratio of 28% which I would like to reduce in future fields.
I would be grateful for suggestions from other experienced planters on how to improve our performance, thanks.
Exactly what pathogens is potassium permanganate supposed to prevent?
28% failure sounds terrible. Would it be out of the question to establish suckers in pots using soilless potting media before planting in the field? I only mention this because, in my experience, the failure rate for potted suckers is close to zero.
louis14
12-15-2017, 01:01 PM
The Permanganate is recommended as an anti fungus. Potting would be impractical/impossible as when we buy suckers they can weigh several kgs each. I have been using the Permanganate to disinfect the suckers we purchase from other plantations, to avoid bringing infections into ours. But I am getting similar failure ratios with sucker transplants from our own plants. However, the rest of the crop is beautiful, strong and tall so we do not think it is a soil or PH problem.We also have planted fields of Khai and Gros Michel and the ratio is much better, between 5 and 10 max. We used Permanganate in the same way, the work was done by the same staff. The high failure ratio is with the Namwa variety which is surprising as it is a very resistant locally developped plant.
pitangadiego
12-15-2017, 01:44 PM
Size of the sucker, and how well rooted it is could be an issue. Using cow dung, especially when it can contact a fresh cut may be an issue. Changing to well-composted organic material might be an answer, and then applying the cow dung on the surface a few weeks after planting. Fertilizers and manures can be top watered to leach them into the root zone and also provide some measure of weed control, as well.
Granted, Southern California is a different climate, and I have a small orchard, not a plantation, but failure of pups here has to be well under 1% using 100% compost in planting hole, and as a top dressing, even if done in winter months.
Posting a picture of the actual suckers that you are transplanting would be helpful.
louis14
12-15-2017, 06:32 PM
Ok, I've got it. File sizes reduced, it works. Here are some photos from the suckers we bought lasthttp://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62706 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62706&ppuser=26930)
edwmax
12-15-2017, 07:09 PM
I have attempted various uploads of pictures to no result. Do new members need to acquire privilege to upload and post pictures? Can an admin help? Thanks
Look at the bottom of the upload page. There is a size limit (5200 kb) and user disk space limit. Make the photos smaller. I suggest paper size of 4" x 6" at 150 or 200 dpi. This is a good size for the internet/forum as well as making the most of your user disk space.
louis14
12-15-2017, 07:15 PM
And the prepared field, before and one month after transplanting
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62704&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62704)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62710&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62710)
louis14
12-15-2017, 07:18 PM
The suckers, when we buy them are cut down to a length of about 40 to 50 cm
sputinc7
12-15-2017, 07:59 PM
I would agree that the manure in the planting mix is the most likely issue, but could not help noticing you said that Namwah is common in your area... Is it possible there is some localized pest or disease doing this as you stated this rate is only in Namwah?
louis14
12-15-2017, 10:31 PM
Thank you for all the input. It's true that we have had less failure with Khai and Gros Michel but now that I study the problem I am starting to believe that the suckers of Namwah supplied to us are too big and have never been stunted whereas the suckers of the other varieties had stunting scars, little leaf, were bullet shaped and that these are more successful and take immediately, especially in the rainy season. In our next field of Namwah we will select only this type of sucker and I can measure the difference. We will also follow your advice on the cow dung.We should be planting a new field next week so results will be quick to evaluate.
aruzinsky
12-16-2017, 12:28 AM
... But I am getting similar failure ratios with sucker transplants from our own plants. ...
Do you use the permanganate on the sucker transplants from your own plants? If so, you can try transplants without it because there is no danger of introducing new infections. If not, then permanganate is not the cause of your failures. If it is the cause of your failures, you can switch to another fungicide.
louis14
12-16-2017, 01:47 AM
Thanks, we will also make sure not to use the Permanganate with our own transplants and evaluate
edwmax
12-16-2017, 10:29 AM
Just a note: From the above photo the trimmed sucker most have roots while I see some with little to not roots. Those without roots will show transplant shock and will take a month or more to regrow new roots. These are likely the ones you are calling 'failed transplants'. ... These are the ones I suggested above that should be culled from field planting and may be put into a nursery bed to regrow roots to save cost. Then transplanted into a new field when ready along with other healthy suckers.
I recently removed some suckers (3ft to 4 ft sword suckers) from my Dwarf Namwah to transplant. The corms were big, but several had no roots of their own. I transplanted those anyway to force the corm to grow roots. This will take time. But time that will delay your plant output.
So (I think) corms with no roots and poor handling causing root damage is most probable the major cause of your transplant failures.
louis14
12-16-2017, 02:16 PM
Just a note: From the above photo the trimmed sucker most have roots while I see some with little to not roots. Those without roots will show transplant shock and will take a month or more to regrow new roots. These are likely the ones you are calling 'failed transplants'. ... These are the ones I suggested above that should be culled from field planting and may be put into a nursery bed to regrow roots to save cost. Then transplanted into a new field when ready along with other healthy suckers.//.
So (I think) corms with no roots and poor handling causing root damage is most probable the major cause of your transplant failures.
Thanks for this very relevant comment. I reviewed photos of other purchases that have shown low failure ratios and the roots are much longer and much more present. Here a photo of a purchase of Gros Michel that showed excellent success ratios.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62711&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62711)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62713&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62713)
louis14
12-16-2017, 02:42 PM
Additionally, these particular suckers waited quite a few too many days in the shade before planting. They looked rather dry and stale by the time they went into the ground but this did not affect success, maybe even on the contrary, as Gabe15 has said, that time in the 39 degree shade allowed for healing.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62714 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62713&ppuser=26930)
Some unexpected tenants had even started nesting under them
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62715&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62715&ppuser=26930)
Kanana
12-16-2017, 05:15 PM
A scorpion? Wow, are they bad for banana plants where you are at?
louis14
12-16-2017, 08:44 PM
No :waving: they just like to creep under cool and damp shelters
Hammocked Banana
12-20-2017, 05:33 PM
Did u cut the leaves off before planting those namwah? Could also be an issue....too much transpiration without roots....
louis14
12-21-2017, 06:41 PM
Yes, all the trunks were cut on the lot with 28% failure. But thanks, I did not know this could be an issue. We have replanted Namwah water suckers on some smaller fields,with their leaves as a test and they do ok, although I do find they are much slower to developp than sword suckers. The main problem being that in the namwah variety I find that, the water suckers and sword suckers are really hard to differenciate
Tytaylor77
12-25-2017, 12:53 PM
In my experience transplanting namwah/Pisang awak types they have a more moist pstem tissue compared to other varieties. I’m sure you notice picking them up, you feel more “flex” in the pstem. I have found this causes them to rot easier under very moist conditions. They are very hardy once established.
I don’t think the roots would be an issue or the corm healing in the shade. If anything less roots would prevent rot. I also had higher Pisang awak failures. I ended up coping what they do in India. India grows more Pisang Awak than anywhere! They plant the corms higher. Just under the surface! Very shallow! I also chop the pstem down on taller pups to prevent them from falling over due to the shallow planting. I saw a HUGE difference. I now plant almost everything this way.
Since they are shallow I leave room to “earth up” around them. I always wait until they are 3 months old or so. Then i add soil around the corms upto about 4”. This still leaves room to add more and more loose new compost/manure/etc over the growing season. By the end of the year i will have added 8-10”. Since your on a larger scale you may want to add the 8” or so at the 3 month mark.
Test some next planting. I think it will help you a lot. Additional things I’m sure you know. Limit fertilizer until you have a couple leaves established. Also limit irrigation until they are pushing new growth (3-4 weeks).
Good luck!
You have a very nice planting area.
Feel free to PM me. I can try to dig up more info if you need it.
louis14
12-25-2017, 04:30 PM
In my experience transplanting namwah/Pisang awak types they have a more moist pstem tissue compared to other varieties. I’m sure you notice picking them up, you feel more “flex” in the pstem. I have found this causes them to rot easier under very moist conditions. They are very hardy once established.
I don’t think the roots would be an issue or the corm healing in the shade. If anything less roots would prevent rot. I also had higher Pisang awak failures. I ended up coping what they do in India. India grows more Pisang Awak than anywhere! They plant the corms higher. Just under the surface! Very shallow! I also chop the pstem down on taller pups to prevent them from falling over due to the shallow planting. I saw a HUGE difference. I now plant almost everything this way.
Since they are shallow I leave room to “earth up” around them. I always wait until they are 3 months old or so. Then i add soil around the corms upto about 4”. This still leaves room to add more and more loose new compost/manure/etc over the growing season. By the end of the year i will have added 8-10”. Since your on a larger scale you may want to add the 8” or so at the 3 month mark.
Test some next planting. I think it will help you a lot. Additional things I’m sure you know. Limit fertilizer until you have a couple leaves established. Also limit irrigation until they are pushing new growth (3-4 weeks).
Good luck!
You have a very nice planting area.
Feel free to PM me. I can try to dig up more info if you need it.
Many thanks for such a precise and experienced answer. We will apply your advice immediately as we are planting right now and identify the rows with the different planting depth and evaluate. I am also fascinated by your comment about the amount of root. It is now the dry season so the workers have to wet the soil to dig the hole, they then water right after transplanting the pup to settle the earth around the corm . The dew is heavy at the moment and night temperature is down to 8 degrees C but the afternoon sun is hot and afternoon temperature can be 33 C. Daytime humidity is quite low as we are in the north. So do you mean that after this, we should not water at all until a couple of leaves have developped? We have reddish sandy soil with rapid water absorption.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62735&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62735&ppuser=26930)
louis14
02-15-2018, 06:53 AM
In my experience transplanting namwah/Pisang awak types they have a more moist pstem tissue compared to other varieties. I’m sure you notice picking them up, you feel more “flex” in the pstem. I have found this causes them to rot easier under very moist conditions. They are very hardy once established.
I don’t think the roots would be an issue or the corm healing in the shade. If anything less roots would prevent rot. I also had higher Pisang awak failures. I ended up coping what they do in India. India grows more Pisang Awak than anywhere! They plant the corms higher. Just under the surface! Very shallow! I also chop the pstem down on taller pups to prevent them from falling over due to the shallow planting. I saw a HUGE difference. I now plant almost everything this way.
Since they are shallow I leave room to “earth up” around them. I always wait until they are 3 months old or so. Then i add soil around the corms upto about 4”. This still leaves room to add more and more loose new compost/manure/etc over the growing season. By the end of the year i will have added 8-10”. Since your on a larger scale you may want to add the 8” or so at the 3 month mark.
Test some next planting. I think it will help you a lot. Additional things I’m sure you know. Limit fertilizer until you have a couple leaves established. Also limit irrigation until they are pushing new growth (3-4 weeks).
Good luck!
You have a very nice planting area.
Feel free to PM me. I can try to dig up more info if you need it.
Two months after my first post about sucker failure and thanks to the fabulous advice received on this forum, the ratio is currently down to 2% maybe less, and thus has become negligeable when it was standing at 28%. Selecting only sword suckers, planting them shallow, giving them as little water as possible during the first month has completely changed our outlook on future banana field development.
A BIG THANK YOU to all and especially to Tytaylor77 for your INVALUABLE advice!
:nanadrink::nanadrink::nanadrink::nanadrink::nanadrink:
CraigSS
02-15-2018, 08:28 AM
:2722: Hi Louis,
Curious if you may have a problem with your soil in some areas. Where you have had failures, have you replanted with new plants and they lived? I had apple trees and always had an area where the trees seemed to die within a few years. after several tries took soil samples and found that there was a natural enzyme in the soils that was killing off the new trees. Removed yards of soil and replaced with new and trees took hold.
Edit your profile and add where you are from.
Craig
louis14
02-15-2018, 07:58 PM
:2722: Hi Louis,
Curious if you may have a problem with your soil in some areas. Where you have had failures, have you replanted with new plants and they lived? I had apple trees and always had an area where the trees seemed to die within a few years. after several tries took soil samples and found that there was a natural enzyme in the soils that was killing off the new trees. Removed yards of soil and replaced with new and trees took hold.
Edit your profile and add where you are from.
Craig
Thanks for your reply,
The failures were spread out in the same field, with no recognizable pattern. We have however improved our transplanting technique since receiving expert advice on this forum and the ratio is currently negligeable. The places where we had failures all now have suckers growing and developping. Check our previous post for our situation update after two months. :nanadrink:
CraigSS
02-16-2018, 07:25 AM
Glad to hear you got a handle on your problem.
Good luck and grow bananas.
Craig
edwmax
02-16-2018, 08:20 AM
Two months after my first post about sucker failure and thanks to the fabulous advice received on this forum, the ratio is currently down to 2% maybe less, and thus has become negligeable when it was standing at 28%. Selecting only sword suckers, planting them shallow, giving them as little water as possible during the first month has completely changed our outlook on future banana field development.
A BIG THANK YOU to all and especially to Tytaylor77 for your INVALUABLE advice!
:nanadrink::nanadrink::nanadrink::nanadrink::nanadrink:
Thank you for the update. It is gratifying our comments and instructions were helpful and on target for your problem. Your update verifies that our methods for growing bananas are solid and works. Since most of us, grow bananas outside of their normal tropical growing range, we learned from & by our failures.
About 15 years ago when I first started grow a few bananas, there were NO information available (I looked) on the internet to help new banana growers. Only in the past few years have info started becoming available. ... And even on this forum in the past TWO years have other forum Members started posting their methods & observations for growing bananas in non-tropical zones. Many time against nay-Sayers &/or with some friendly debate of different methods.
We're all still learning, so please continue to post your methods & observations as well as problems that you encounter. These will help us too.
:nanadrink:
Tytaylor77
02-17-2018, 12:03 AM
Thank you for the kind words Louis14! Growing is all about sharing info and techniques! I’m glad we could help! Please keep us updated on your success and keep posting pictures!! I wish you great success and growth of your business!
Good Luck!
Ty
louis14
04-06-2018, 05:07 AM
The field is doing great now, growing at 100%. The Namwah have been watered three times a week since December and we are now getting welcome evening free irrigation through regular thunderstorms. The rainy season might even come early! Wouldn't that be just great!
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62925&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62925&ppuser=26930)
This field will shoot up in the next six months, our Namwah grow to fifteen feet!
edwmax
04-06-2018, 06:13 AM
The field is looking Great!
louis14
04-17-2018, 07:50 AM
Would it be out of the question to establish suckers in pots using soilless potting media before planting in the field? I only mention this because, in my experience, the failure rate for potted suckers is close to zero.
Aruzinsky: Your suggestions did not fall on deaf ears!
Even though our success ratio in the field is close to 100% nowadays, we built a 50m2 test polytunnel shaded with 50% green netting roofed with HDPE so as to control the watering.
We did this as I found the suckers suffered too much from sudden exposure to 100% sunshine, after having developped in the shade of the mother pseudostem. They will wilt and look fragile, even though they are watered three times a week in the dry season; and this for months and months before finally reaching the strategic size that allows them to thrive.
A month ago we readied the polytunnel and put in a cool thousand sword suckers within the following two weeks. Each sucker has been potted in a 50/50 mix of compost and local soil.
The results are absolutely dazzling! The sucker stems stay bright green and I cannot see any failure. Rolled leaves are already popping up everywhere. Once they have more leaves, we will progressively harden them and move them into newly created fields with the rainy season in motion.
This has been a very encouraging experiment and we will now rapidly build a few much more solid, steel-posted hardening tents so as to continue mastering this process. :bananas_b
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62937&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62937&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62940&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62940&ppuser=26930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62959&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62959&ppuser=26930)
Tytaylor77
04-17-2018, 10:44 PM
That’s a Musa army right there!
Your doing an amazing job Louis!
louis14
04-17-2018, 11:21 PM
We're gonna need a bigger tent! :ha::ha::ha:
louis14
04-25-2018, 10:22 AM
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=62978&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=62978&ppuser=26930)
The same field today. Golf anyone?
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