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View Full Version : Southeast Veinte Cohol Flowering


Island Brah
09-29-2017, 08:01 AM
Planted my Veinte Cohol from a 5 gallon pot to the ground on April 23, 2017. This pic was taken a month after I planted it so it was way smaller than this when it went into the ground.

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I didn't think it would flower this year in hopes for larger pups to plant and fruit way earlier next season. I pushed it hard all growing season and this flag leaf popped this week. The pstem is now 5.5-6 feet tall and the base of the pstem is 23 inches around. This Veinte Cohol grew so fast for me producing 2 leaves a week during summer. Once the flag leaf came, its started going SO SLOW, even with with 0-0-62 supplement. I cut all nitrogen once I saw the pre-flag leaf.

It has 2 large pups and 5 peepers. I'm being told to remove one of the large pups to make it go faster but I think its slowed down due to less sun each day since the sun is lower in the fall sky which makes more shade on it through the day now. I really don't want to mess with the root system now that its flowering and I don't think the speed created by removing one of the large pups, if any, with be worth the risk. It's a race against time with frost usually happening around the first of November in my zone. We've had a warmer than normal fall so far so I'm hoping the warmer days stick around long enough for me to get lucky - I doubt it but ya never know :)

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Tytaylor77
09-30-2017, 01:20 AM
You know what my thoughts are!! Since I'm the one that says CUT!!! 7 pups will slow a banana to a crawl!! When the flower pops out sometimes the banana resets its apical dominance. It will slow the flower down and put extra energy into the largest pup. This is what's happening!! It doesn't know winter is coming! It thinks it's in the tropics and has time. Also it is worried about its survival (largest pup) over its flower. I have seen this happen! If it was mine I would remove both large pups! At the same time!! If you hurry and then prune the bunch down it can fill enough to eat in another 40 days. As long as you don't butcher it the mom won't even notice the pup removal. Roots will be regrow and improved in just a couple weeks! What do you have to loose!! I look at it as:
--Remove them: have a chance to get a couple hands of fruit to try!
--Don't remove them: no chance of fruit and you will remove them in a month or 2 anyway.

Also by removing the pups now it will be better on them! They will have time to get rooted in pots a little before winter.

I really wanna hear what other members would do? What do you think?

Richard
09-30-2017, 02:06 AM
Island Brah (http://www.bananas.org/member-island-brah.html),
I have a different suggestion for you, in part because TyTaylor's concept of apical dominance does not apply to monocots.

Also in my perspective -- bananas (and many other plants) have their life center underground and what's above ground is solar panels and sex.

So ... if in your locale, in your situation:

I'd let that stalk flower and make some effort to protect it from the cold. Who knows, next June or July the fruit could ripen.
I would excavate at least one of the more robust pups and plant it in a pot to over winter indoors in a south facing window. If the first pup you dig up does not have sufficient roots (in your opinion) to survive the transplant, then dig up the next.
Bury the remaining pups (if any) along with the base of the "mother" stalk in at least one foot of completely composted bark or mulch. 1" diameter bark would be great.


Now if any of the "outdoor" pups survive, I'd cherish them and have hard decisions next year as to which to keep.

THE GOAL IS: For Veinte Cohol in your locale, learn when the pups need to start growing above ground so that (a) they survive the winter, and (b) produce viable fruit the following year in time to nearly ripen on the stalk.

Tytaylor77
09-30-2017, 03:03 AM
I agree with Richard! I keep mine in ground over winter and get fruit every year! It may work there! Its worth a try!! If not then planting out 3-4' pups in spring should work there no problem!!

I agree I did misuse the apical dominance term. I'm just an observer! Not an expert and I'm self taught. Richard knows far more about plants than me!! Thank you for the correction!! Richard is an expert to me and I listen when he speaks.

Since it is a monocot look at the pup as a "branch" off the mom and sometimes there is a shift of energy from one branch (mom) to another branch (pup) at flowering. I have seen this several times in my growing experience! When the flower emerges a large pup will go from slow growth to high gear fast growth! The bud keeps pushing out! It just does it slower! There is only so much energy to divide up! That's what I'm saying, just put into the wrong words!

Plus it's proven pups slow down a banana plant! I credit my success in zone 8b in part by removing all pups as soon as they are large enough! It allows me to grow the main plant faster! In 6-7 months I have grown the following plants from pups emerging from bare dirt to a flower or filling bunch!! I count this being "fast"!! Faster growth = sooner flower!!
FHIA-01 goldfinger
FHIA-03 sweetheart
Gran Nain
4xRaja Puri
14xVeinte Cohol
3xPatupi
1xTigua
8xDwarf Orinoco
1xTall Orinoco

These are NOT short cycle bananas! However I fruit them in a single season!!

Surprisingly I have 5 Musa Floridas I was expecting to bloom that never did! So far NO variegated bananas are short cycle or fast cycle for me!!

Those of you who has seen pictures of my bunch sizes prior to pruning can verify this!! And by pruning the bunch hevilly I will get fruit to eat from most of those bunches!

I will also make a few end of year posts to show growth and results! I have discovered methods that work!! I will break down what I do when I make the end of year posts! It's easy!! Here is a basic summary.

1. Only allow 1 plant per "mat"
2. At 3-4' depending on variety start to fertilize heavily - I call this "pushing" the plant. You will see twisted leaves and light green growth. These are side effects of the plant growing to fast/too much nitrogen. It can also offset the uptake of other nutrients!! It's a trade off for fast growth! You will not have pretty leaves, but you will have a flower!
3. Continue pushing the plant with nitrogen and potash all the way until a flag leaf.
4. Only apply Potash after the flag.
5. Prune hands off depending how much time is left in till winter and depending on what variety your pruning

Pruning works! Plantations prune bunches and fingers!! If you were at the grocery store and you come across some HUGE cavendish bananas. These were made larger by pruning. So by selectively pruning a bunch you can make the remaining fingers/hands fill faster and fill larger!! I do this every year!

This works for me in my area! It may not work for you!! It's worth a try!!! Before this, it would take my Orinocos a full 2 years to make fruit! I'm happy to help! PM or email me and I will show pictures or answer questions.

Richard
09-30-2017, 03:18 AM
Since it is a monocot look at the pup as a "branch" off the mom

No. A rhizome between corms is very different than a branch.

There is only so much energy to divide up! That's what I'm saying, just put into the wrong words!

"Resources" would be the correct word.

Plus it's proven pups slow down a banana plant!

Actually in some cases pups can nurse a primary stalk; e.g., when its leaves are tattered during gestation.

TyTaylor and I are in basic agreement though ... check out this guide I wrote awhile back:
http://www.bananas.org/f310/richards-guide-homegrown-bananas-46227.html#post296373

obdiah
09-30-2017, 08:01 AM
hi i am not an expert in any way but here are my observations if your interested
I have never noticed any ill effects or slowing of growth from removing all the pups from a plant maybe a slight increase of growth and usually do so on a plant i am trying to fruit
or just leave one pup for the next season

the one time I attempted to overwinter vc in the ground here it was unsuccessful how ever
the were tc plants about 6 in tall started in june and were not well established thier growth
was phenomenal!! but the dont seem to be cold tolerant at all however I still plan to work with them and try to develop a better wintering strategy

blue java orinico rajah puri have given the best results for me overwintering in the ground here in zone 7 but just cant compare with the vc.s short cycle so still expereminting and learning

venturabananas
10-01-2017, 12:04 PM
I think the timing of pup removal is important. Personally, I don't do it from plants that have a flower or bunch. My understanding is that once the flower has emerged, removing pups off the flowering mother corm can be detrimental for some varieties because the flowering plant will no longer grow new roots to replace ones damaged when removing pups. This isn't from personal experience, just what I've read. But I err on the side of caution and leave pups on plants with fruit hanging, and remove pups prior to flowering or after harvest. I'm sure people like Gabe, Nick, and Keith who've grown commercially could give us more insight.

Island Brah
10-02-2017, 09:18 AM
You know what my thoughts are!! Since I'm the one that says CUT!!!

:ha::ha::ha:

Welp, after speaking to many of the reputable banana experts/veterans here, I went ahead an removed the largest pup as an experiment. About half the folks said remove it and the other half advised not to mess with the roots. I definitely leaned on and agreed with the side of not messing with it but I thought it would be a great opportunity to experiment in my Georgia climate. I really had nothing to lose since the flower was growing so slow with my average frost time of the beginning of November approaching. If it continued to grow this slow, no chance of bananas. It it grows a little faster, maybe a chance to have bananas.

During my banana growing experience (3 years), I've found that the bananas in my yard tend to grow a little more robust and taller if I leave the pups on. I know this goes against what we've all been reading here but it's the results I have in my yard here 35 miles northeast of Atlanta, Georgia. The difference isn't really noticeable unless I compare the same cultivar side by side and I'm guessing this also depends on the cultivar. Maybe leaving them on outweighs root recovery time for the mother in my soil - who knows.

The pup I removed was my largest VC pup at 3.5 feet tall and very stout. I'm sure someone is wondering why I didn't remove it sooner but I wanted larger and smaller VC pups for next year so I can have early and late summer VC bananas. This will be the plan for my VCs every year for a continuous cycle of this type of banana. This little peeper was so close to the pup that I had to pop it off to make a clean cut from the mother. It had some corm but no roots yet obviously. It's worth a try to see if it makes it :)

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They were removed like a surgeon with my new Razorback trenching shovel. This is slightly longer and skinnier then my old trenching shovel and it made a HUGE difference. I only saw one mother root cut. The little bit of difference made a very large impact regarding root damage and glad I spent the money on it.

Island Brah
10-10-2017, 08:06 AM
My first ever VC bunch isn't looking too bad so far. Hoping the highs in the mid 80's and lows in mid 60's stick around a bit longer. Hurricane Nate brought some of the highest humidity all growing season and also brought the first rain since hurricane Irma.

It appears removing the largest pup as the flower was coming out hasn't had any negative effect so far.

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Island Brah
10-19-2017, 11:59 AM
I took this pic earlier this week and wanted to post an update of the progress. Not sure if cutting the pup off had any negative effects but it doesn't look like it to me. Maybe one of the experts here can weigh in on that from my pics.

I was told to and I did take off every other banana on the top two hands to make them fill faster before frost. I was told to do the same to the bottom two hands but it makes me cringe to have to remove them so soon. It does appear the top hands are filling faster but not sure if that's just how bananas fill - top to bottom? Our highs here now are in the low to mid 70s and the lows are in the upper 40s to upper 50s. Hopefully frost stays away for another 3 weeks at least...which does look possible according to the long-term forecasts :)

Really cool to see the honey bees outnumbering the yellow jackets and other types of bees on the banana flowers. I must have a honey hive somewhere close. You can see some in the pic if you look close lol


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HMelendez
10-20-2017, 04:58 AM
Congrats Island Brah!.....

cincinnana
10-20-2017, 08:16 PM
Cool .........Brah:woohoonaner:

Great quality photos......