View Full Version : Fhia-1
eddiemunozep
06-02-2017, 09:53 PM
Ok,
I have seen posts on Fhia-1 and I am confused.
I have what I believe to be a Fhia-1 that is about 9 months old purchased from either Florida Hill or another nursery from Florida.
I was at Home Depot in Temecula, Ca. and they had Fhia-1 plants for sale.
They had the wine colored blotches in their leaves like cavendish types.
Looking at mine they do not have them.
Does anyone know if the Fhia-1 has the wine colored blotches or not?
Eddie Munoz
Tytaylor77
06-02-2017, 11:31 PM
Yes both the agristarts TC FHIA-01 and the USDA FHIA-01 (real one) have wine spots. As they get older the wine spots go away. You only see it on small plants and TC plantlets.
eddiemunozep
06-02-2017, 11:39 PM
So if the young pups don"t have wine colored spots then I wonder what I have?
I wonder if the young plants from Home Depot are real Fhia-1 or not?
Eddie
Tytaylor77
06-03-2017, 01:13 AM
The only true way to tell what you have is when it flowers. If you post pics here we can try to guess what it is. Some are easy to ID some aren't.
Post some pics of yours and maybe we can help. Pics of when it was small and now. Get a pic from above where the 3rd leaf down connects to the pstem.
A clear pic of the bottom of the pstem. If there is any color, etc.
Then a good pic of the whole plant. Backed away a few feet.
There is nothing worse than a mystery banana. I have several still not IDed. If you buy TC bananas your gonna have a few mysteries.
HMelendez
06-03-2017, 06:52 AM
So if the young pups have wine colored spots then I wonder what I have?
I wonder if the young plants from Home Depot are real Fhia-1 or not?
Eddie
Eddie,
As Ty states, post different pictures of the plant definitely will help....I'm not saying it is not possible, but most likely, you got The FHIA-1 (TC) Tissue Culture "American Goldfinger" in which is a great tasting 'Nana variety!.....
PR-Giants
06-04-2017, 08:43 AM
Get a pic from above where the 3rd leaf down connects to the pstem.
Thanks for teaching us, as a group we continue to get smarter with your guidance.
Even though that photo won't be of much assistance in identifying the banana you should make it clear to eddie and others that when they read '3rd leaf down' in a banana manual it is referring to the 3rd leaf down from the inflorescence and that is where the data is taken from.
The FHIA-01 is a semi dwarf but that is not always easy to notice and measuring leaf ratios can show that it's in all 3 groups.
:woohoonaner:
sputinc7
06-04-2017, 10:58 AM
I believe Ty is talking about identifying it now, before the inflorescence, at 8 feet tall.
There can be no definitive ID at this stage, but you can rule out many types, which helps narrow it down. Also, someone who grows a certain type and has for a while should be able to say with around 80+% certainty if it is that kind by looking at those pics.
The pic of the third leaf down would clearly show the petiole, which is a major identifying marker.
PR-Giants
06-04-2017, 01:29 PM
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=57139 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=57139)
A few years back I posted many photos that clearly showed that many of the cultivars I grow fell into multiple groups when using leaf #3. It's not a major identifying marker when a cultivar falls into multiple groups.
No one is going to be 80+% certain by looking at pics. :ha:
I believe Ty is talking about identifying it now, before the inflorescence, at 8 feet tall.
There can be no definitive ID at this stage, but you can rule out many types, which helps narrow it down. Also, someone who grows a certain type and has for a while should be able to say with around 80+% certainty if it is that kind by looking at those pics.
The pic of the third leaf down would clearly show the petiole, which is a major identifying marker.
sputinc7
06-04-2017, 03:29 PM
So, you couldn't be 80% sure of a cultivar looking at those 3 pics if it was one you have grown for some time? When young they all have subtle differences that one who grows them a lot should be able to notice. Sure, some are easier than others, but an experienced grower should have a good idea what it is and be quite certain of ones it is not from the 3 pics Ty explained especially when it is something from a nursery since that narrows the possibilities.
It has to do with more than just the openness of the channel in the petiole, the length, coloring, thickness, etc all play a part.
I wasn't saying you could get a certain ID, just an approximation, 80%, not 100. That means 20% of the time they will still be wrong.
PR-Giants
06-04-2017, 04:33 PM
I would recommend you reading the results of the seminars conducted in the Caribbean to teach banana researchers and curators of major banana collections how to use and also how to collect data for these descriptors. and you'll see that many of these highly educated banana people that were examining the same exact plants (not photos) came up with different data.
So, you couldn't be 80% sure of a cultivar looking at those 3 pics if it was one you have grown for some time? When young they all have subtle differences that one who grows them a lot should be able to notice. Sure, some are easier than others, but an experienced grower should have a good idea what it is and be quite certain of ones it is not from the 3 pics Ty explained especially when it is something from a nursery since that narrows the possibilities.
It has to do with more than just the openness of the channel in the petiole, the length, coloring, thickness, etc all play a part.
I wasn't saying you could get a certain ID, just an approximation, 80%, not 100. That means 20% of the time they will still be wrong.
PR-Giants
06-04-2017, 05:39 PM
This might be an easy way for you to understand this. Look at your plants and find one that has a second leaf with a different petiole canal descriptor than the third leaf and after the new cigar leaf unfurls the third leaf will be the forth leaf and the second leaf will become the new third leaf and because the plant now has different third leaf data it might be a different cultivar.
So, you couldn't be 80% sure of a cultivar looking at those 3 pics if it was one you have grown for some time? When young they all have subtle differences that one who grows them a lot should be able to notice. Sure, some are easier than others, but an experienced grower should have a good idea what it is and be quite certain of ones it is not from the 3 pics Ty explained especially when it is something from a nursery since that narrows the possibilities.
It has to do with more than just the openness of the channel in the petiole, the length, coloring, thickness, etc all play a part.
I wasn't saying you could get a certain ID, just an approximation, 80%, not 100. That means 20% of the time they will still be wrong.
Tytaylor77
06-04-2017, 08:37 PM
Ignore him Steve. He only wants to Attack and Make Fun of members. Even if it's in a sarcastic way. I no longer reply to him, which is all he wants. It is not productive to the community and I will not be a part of the unwanted drama.
I believe Eddie and others here understand we are not banana professionals or guaranteeing what we ID. We are simply trying to help someone by educating and comparing to our own plants and growing history.
And I believe the OP and others are thankful of this help.
PR-Giants
06-05-2017, 08:28 AM
Most members prefer to know if what they are being taught is correct or incorrect.
It's easy to understand that some people only have time to read the first part of the instructions because they are in a rush to start teaching and educating others.
This is a photo of a mother plant and one of her large pups.
On the right is the pup's third leaf.
On the left is the mother plants third leaf counted from the last leaf produced before bud emergence.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=56392 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=56392)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=57139 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=57139)
sputinc7
06-05-2017, 09:10 AM
My Gm has wide open petioles all the way from the first to the last... Same with 3640... Actually, those would be more difficult to tell apart, yet there are differences. For instance, 3640 is stockier and has a deeper green to it's leaves, those can be difficult to tell in pics.
Anyway, my main point wasn't petioles, but that someone who has grown a certain type for a few years should be able to look at the pics spoken of and say, "I am about 80% sure it is such and such." and actually have an 80% chance of being correct. But, even more so, my point is that if I have grown GM for a few years I should be able to look at those pics and tell you if it definitely is not GM with near 100% certainty for certain varieties, such as VC or Namwah. Sure, telling if it is Cav or GM from 3 pics is going to be more difficult and much less accurate.
Being able to identify what it is not is part of finding a correct ID.
PR-Giants
06-05-2017, 09:57 AM
The mother plant and her pup are both nam wa. :lurk:
with near 100% certainty for certain varieties, such as VC or Namwah.
Most members prefer to know if what they are being taught is correct or incorrect.
It's easy to understand that some people only have time to read the first part of the instructions because they are in a rush to start teaching and educating others.
This is a photo of a mother plant and one of her large pups.
On the right is the pup's third leaf.
On the left is the mother plants third leaf counted from the last leaf produced before bud emergence.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=56392 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=56392)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=57139 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=57139)
PR-Giants
06-05-2017, 01:41 PM
This is a guide to help identify the FHIA cultivars and should improve the folks that are 80+% accurate to 98+%.
Identification and characterization guide for FHIA banana and plantain hybrids (http://www.musalit.org/seeMore.php?id=11677)
The bottom photo shows one with more dark blotches. These plants can vary quite a bit and some that were grown just a few feet away had very few blotches.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=52675 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=52675)
sputinc7
06-05-2017, 02:29 PM
If nobody can be 80+% sure from pictures, how can your pictures make anyone 98% sure?
Quote PR Giants:
A few years back I posted many photos that clearly showed that many of the cultivars I grow fell into multiple groups when using leaf #3. It's not a major identifying marker when a cultivar falls into multiple groups.
No one is going to be 80+% certain by looking at pics.
meizzwang
06-05-2017, 04:22 PM
Ok,
I have seen posts on Fhia-1 and I am confused.
I have what I believe to be a Fhia-1 that is about 9 months old purchased from either Florida Hill or another nursery from Florida.
I was at Home Depot in Temecula, Ca. and they had Fhia-1 plants for sale.
They had the wine colored blotches in their leaves like cavendish types.
Looking at mine they do not have them.
Does anyone know if the Fhia-1 has the wine colored blotches or not?
Eddie Munoz
Looking forward to seeing your results. Aside from my verified American Goldfinger clone, I also have what's supposed to be an American Goldfinger FHIA-1 from Florida Hill Nursery, it was purchased in 2015....long before being fully educated about the gamble you take when purchasing TC starts from this company and many others. Being in Chilly Northern California, it'll be at least a year from today before the first flower opens, they typically take 3 years from a TC start to flower up here.
Given the multiple reports from various growers that American Goldfinger has a very high incidence of mutations, it'll be interesting to see, should this turn out to be the real deal, if this FHN version is normal or has some defects.
meizzwang
06-05-2017, 05:47 PM
double post :)
PR-Giants
11-24-2017, 05:49 PM
If nobody can be 80+% sure from pictures, how can your pictures make anyone 98% sure?
This is a guide to help identify the FHIA cultivars and should improve the folks that are 80+% accurate to 98+%.
Identification and characterization guide for FHIA banana and plantain hybrids (http://www.musalit.org/seeMore.php?id=11677)
If nobody is 80% accurate using your Guessing System and you give this guide to everyone that is 80% accurate how many guides would you need to give out?
Instead of trying to guess cultivars using those 3 Descriptors/Characters, try to determine the genotype of an unknown cultivar by using the scoring system below.
The FHIA-01 is a semi-dwarf tetraploid, so start by learning the characteristics of tetraploids and see if they match also measure the leaves to see if it's a dwarf. If it's not a semi-dwarf tetraploid it's not a FHIA-01.
The nomenclature system used to classify banana cultivars was developed by Norman Simmonds and Kenneth Shepherd in 1955. It classifies cultivated bananas into genome groups, according to the relative contribution of their ancestral wild species, and into subgroups, sets of closely related cultivars. This system eliminates almost all the difficulties and inconsistencies of a taxonomy based on Musa paradisiaca and Musa sapientum. However, due to difficulties in assigning certain cultivars to a subgroup, and to a lesser extent to a group, there are inconsistencies in the way the system has been applied. Adding to the confusion is the continued use of Latin binomials to classify cultivated bananas. Cultivated bananas are unusual in not having a Latin scientific name.
In this system, bananas, at least the ones that are related to Musa acuminata and Musa balbisiana, are classified according to the relative contribution of these species designated by the letter A, for acuminata, and B, for balbisiana. A cultivar is assigned to a genome group according to the number of chromosome sets in its genome (its ploidy) and the species that donated them. Diploid cultivars can belong to the AA or AB genome group, while triploid cultivars fall into three genome groups: AAA, AAB and ABB.
Some taxonomists recognize a BBB genome group, but its existence has not been conclusively demonstrated. Tetraploid cultivars are mostly hybrids produced by breeders.
Scoring system
The system is based on 15 characters that were chosen because they are different in Musa acuminata and Musa balbisiana. Each character is scored on a scale from one (typical Musa acuminata) to five (typical Musa balbisiana). The possible total scores range from a minimum of 15 to a maximum of 75. The expected scores are 15 for AA and AAA, 35 for AAB, 45 for AB, 55 for ABB and 75 for BB.
Simmonds & Shepherd's
Genome-Based Scoring System (http://www.promusa.org/tiki-index.php?page=Nomenclature+of+cultivated+bananas)
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