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Vlad
02-19-2017, 05:48 PM
I am new to bananas and no next to nothing about them but am excited growing them.
I am in zone 6a. I have a greenhouse kept at 60F with no supplemental lighting.
How can I grow a banana to fruiting stage?
How should I overwinter it?
What cultivars should I get?

JP
02-19-2017, 06:00 PM
Heat it between 75-80. That's gonna help!
Fertilize.

edwmax
02-19-2017, 06:31 PM
With a greenhouse you might succeed. My suggestion is to start with dwarf cavendish and/or Truly Tiny. The Tiny can be grown in the house during the winter. Both makes good patio container plants during the warmer months. These are short cycle plants. Look at the forum wiki for complete description of both. For your area & zone the Dwarf varieties are more likely or easier to fruit.

You need to learn how to grow bananas and I suspect your first ones will die. Just learn and go buy a new plant. ... just my 2 cents ...

sputinc7
02-19-2017, 08:40 PM
I would recommend a SH-3640... it's short cycle and not too tall and doesn't mind if it's cool (60 is cool for bananas). I hear they make big bunches and are tasty, too.
Anyway, with a heated greenhouse, even if it's 60 overnight, it will get warmer in the day most of the time, right? Here in central Florida, that's our winter and they grow fine.

john_ny
03-01-2017, 08:17 PM
I agree that you should start with a dwarf variety. If your temp gets to 60°F, at night, but warms up in the day, you should be OK. I've seen fruiting variety bearing fruit in Orlando.

cincinnana
03-01-2017, 08:30 PM
I am new to bananas and no next to nothing about them but am excited growing them.
I am in zone 6a. I have a greenhouse kept at 60F with no supplemental lighting.
How can I grow a banana to fruiting stage?
How should I overwinter it?
What cultivars should I get?

Great post.

What else are you growing in your hot house hot peppers,lettuce basil?.
Hot houses are great ....I do not have one but my buddies do. Jealous.

You can overwinter your banana plant in your greenhouse as you described that is kept at 60f with no supplemental lighting.
Your plants will do well ...the warmer the better.

There are many Youtube videos with bananas and greenhouses to help you start your banana endeavor.

Many dwarfs could be larger than you think, with a possible footprint of 10x10+-.
So keep that in mind for your hothouse

Gabe15
03-03-2017, 01:48 AM
First thing to consider is how much room you will have in there, what size is your greenhouse?

Vlad
03-03-2017, 09:08 AM
Thank you everybody for the replies. (By the way, being new to this forum, I don't know how to use the thank new function.)
Looks like overwintering in the greenhouse is out because it is only 8X12. But aren't †here any any small varieties or are they not worth growing?
I have read about planting in ground in the spring , digging up in fall and overwintering in the basement. Is that an option for me? Will there be enough time for them to develop fruit?

sputinc7
03-03-2017, 09:17 AM
You could select a couple nice pups in fall, pot them and let them grow bigger all winter in the greenhouse. In spring, when they will likely be getting pretty big for the greenhouse, plant them outside. If you have a short cycle banana, you should succeed some of the time. At the end of the season, save a couple more new pups and do it again.

Gabe15
03-03-2017, 08:57 PM
Looks like overwintering in the greenhouse is out because it is only 8X12.
Is that the footprint of the greenhouse in ft? If so, that's enough, I guess I was really asking more about what is the height?

cincinnana
03-03-2017, 09:21 PM
Is that the footprint of the greenhouse in ft? If so, that's enough, I guess I was really asking more about what is the height?

Heights are usually 6 feet-+ for those units....

Vlad
03-03-2017, 11:37 PM
Greenhouse is 8X12 ft and 9 ft high.

Gabe15
03-04-2017, 12:26 AM
It's gonna be a squeeze, but I would look at 'Dwarf Orinoco', they are hardy and small plants, the fruit quality is not the most preferred but they can be nice and any homegrown bananas will be better than none.

You can start it outside in a large container this spring, and then maybe plant it in the ground in the greenhouse towards the end of summer to overwinter there, and continue growth the next year, you could also just put it straight into the greenhouse but it won't get full size in one season anyway so you could use the greenhouse space for something else over the first summer.

The next challenge will be temperature control. The optimum would be to never let it get below 60°F for continuous growth, but that can be difficult with a simple greenhouse sometimes. The next reasonable threshold would be to not let it get below 35-40°F, at that temperature the plant will not be growing, but there will also be no damage, it would just hold on until temperatures warm again. At the very least, you should avoid any frost or freezing, as although the plants can survive, it dramatically reduces the changes of fruiting and can easily stunt the plant as it will start to cause damage, and in a sub-optimum environment, you really want to avoid that.

cincinnana
03-04-2017, 10:59 AM
Thank you everybody for the replies. (By the way, being new to this forum, I don't know how to use the thank new function.)
Looks like overwintering in the greenhouse is out because it is only 8X12. But aren't †here any any small varieties or are they not worth growing?
I have read about planting in ground in the spring , digging up in fall and overwintering in the basement. Is that an option for me? Will there be enough time for them to develop fruit?

Your grow window is about 160+- days frost to frost and it will be slightly more with your greenhouse. The rest of the year is down time because these plants are tropicals and need all the consistent heat and light you mother nature can supply.


Google frost dates for Medway (http://www.climate-charts.com/USA-Stations/MA/MA199316.php)<-------click the link.

If your hot house is not heated in the coldest months your plants will not survive.

Here are two cute Dwarfs(patio size) which are fun to grow. I will add they probably will not flower .
They will fit in your greenhouse better than some larger plants though.


Common names are Truly Tiny and Little Prince.

These have a smallish footprint and are easy to bring indoors in the winter. Also the plants had been inside for 5 months in substandard conditions.
Photo was taken Feb 6th
Plants are knee high and waist high while sister plants in Florida are slightly larger.`
Disregard the taller Bordelon pups in the background.

.https://c1.staticflickr.com/2/1506/24755379192_e79cdecb1a_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/DHxMLC)
Two varieties of the seven dwarfs collection (https://flic.kr/p/DHxMLC)
by
Hostafarian (https://www.flickr.com/photos/hostafarian/),
on Flickr

edwmax
03-04-2017, 11:43 AM
I'll give a possible solution for you to grow fruited bananas. A couple of members here may argue against this, but the really is 'no one on the forum has tried it'. I will be soon.

First, ... TC banana plants have (are being) promoted as fruiting months sooner than that of banana sucker plants. This being true, then one should be able to start TC plantlets in his greenhouse; plant out in the spring; and see fruiting about mid summer or early fall. ... My verification this is possible comes from Dr. Esendugue Fonsah in the report of 2003 banana trials in Georgia. Read his conclusion to start the plantlets earlier in November.
http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/27149/1/35010086.pdf

Next, read this thread for a little insight of growing & problems TC banana plantlets. http://www.bananas.org/f2/best-practice-grow-tc-bananas-46856-3.html Specifically what I learned from the loss of my little plants was they needed lots of moisture from humidity & misting to grow to field ready plants.

Now the above (member replies) recommendations to use dwarf banana varieties is that these being shorter plants, they will grow to fruiting height sooner than their full size cousin. The full size banana plants (14 to 20 ft tall) take from 260 to 300 days of warm growing weather to fruit; and another 90 to 120 days to harvest ripe fruit. This is a total of 13 to 15 months (+/-) for ripe fruit. In our growing zones cold weather (days below 60 deg F) add to the growing time, plus time to regrow the stalk if it froze to the ground. This is the 2 to 2.5 years you see being stated as growing & fruiting of bananas in our areas. ... So 'short cycle' & dwarf plants are to your advantage to fruiting.

Now you have a greenhouse where TC plantslets can be started in 3 L pots early October and grown until April or May then set out. Keep the greenhouse temps above 65 deg F. These plants would probably be about 3 to 5 ft tall. If every thing go well, you should have ripe bananas by late summer or early fall. ... In the fall dig up the corms and save in the garage (keep from freezing). Pot the corm and sell these next spring. Start new TC plantlets again in October. Your greenhouse is small, but I think it could handle at least 20 plants for you first try.

The Truly Tiny I recommended above grows to 2.5 to 3 ft tall and fruits a small fat little banana (aka: kiddy banana). The dwarf Cavendish fruits at about 6 ft. Dwarf Orinoco is very cold hardy and could be set out earlier in the spring.

Tytaylor77
03-04-2017, 08:15 PM
I'm not the most experienced banana grower or claim to be an expert. All I know is what I do and what I have seen and experienced. I have had bananas for years and have really been deep into bananas for the last 3-4 years. How much experience do you have edwmax? How many varieties did you fruit last year? How many of each variety? Just curious.

I have veinte cohol. I love VC and recommend it to many many people. It's a great banana. And does what it says here in 8b. You are confused about the study by Dr Fonsah. I haven't spoken to him personally but have a close friend who does know and speak to him. Your link also doesn't work. Here is the link to "part" of his study. http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/139284/2/Fonsah_42_1.pdf

In the study they did use some TC plants from 2 sources. One being USDA Tars in PR. They also used corms/pups from GB in Homestead FL. The remainder of the program even when they moved they used PUPS. They even SOLD pups.(there is a breakdown to how many they sold even). They also recommend using PUPS.

You also say nobody has tried what you are saying. I HAVE. I even got my TC plants from the same location as Dr Fonsah from USDA Tars in PR. Same exact clone and material they used for the study. Even unloaded a photo so you would believe me:

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=61269&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=61269&ppuser=20917)
Did this banana bloom for me within one year. No. I received it in Sept. Hardened it off and grew in my small heated greenhouse until winter then planted in the ground in early April. VC when under 4' or so grow very very slow. When they reach 5' or more they grow fast.

For me growing a TC in summer it takes it 6 months at least to equal a 3' pups corm and size. How is that same 4 inch tall banana gonna outgrow a 3-4 foot pup. Not possible. I know first hand. I'm sure the TC labs and sellers love you believe this though. A tall namwa pup will be below the ground to a 5' pup in about 2 weeks. Maybe 3 weeks I haven't counted exactly. You show me a TC that will do that. Make sure you take lots of pictures of your TCs and record their progrsss.

In fact what varieties do you have. I will give you a head start count yours right now vs my pups that haven't broken ground Level yet. Wanna race? Just for the fun of it? You pick the variety I have over 40 different types, I'm sure I have it.

Now you can do it with a TC. Plant a VC TC whenever just make sure it's 3-4 foot come spring and plant it. By first frost you will have bananas in zone 8b and surely zone 8a where the study was done. Why buy new TCs to regrow when you have 7+ pups per Vac each year. They pup like crazy. The Dr is saying remove pups that fall to be planted out over 3' in spring.

Next your comment about dwarf varieties. Dwarf varieties do not grow or fruit any faster than their larger brothers. It is just a mutation of the full size version. Sometimes a little less or smaller fruit. I get bigger fruit and bunches from dwarf Orinoco over tall for some reason, should be about the same. We are saying grow a dwarf for the height benefit. You can fit it inside the greenhouse. Most dwarfs are still tall my dwarf namwa get 13'+ and size isn't counting the leaves. Especially close to bloom the leaves stick almost straight up. VC almost clokes right before a flag pops out. Dwarf is just a mutation. Is a person with dwarfism the same type human as his 7' basketball playing brother. YES it's a mutation. If he has children there is a chance it will also have dwarfism and so on. Same way bananas were breed for dwarf.

Next your "short cycle truly tiny" is a cavendish. It is mutated even further (rumor has it with radiation to force the mutations) they are very hard to make fruit in our area and I'm talking about Gran Nain the #1 selection for commercial growers to sell fruit. I have owned Truly Tiny (from TC) got it from Florida hills nursery 4 years ago. It has never fruited. I overwintered inside the first winter. The 2nd winter I covered it. Third year was last winter I covered it (didn't get below 30F). Gave up and didn't cover this winter and it finally died to the ground. I'm talking the same plant. Same pstem! Not pups. It never fruited. I've talked to several people who's never fruited also. Just giving my history on the plant. I hope yours does great. They look very cool when they make tiny bananas. I've seen several pictures so they do make. Mine just never did.

The Kiddy Banana you see in stores is Musa Nino. I have that variety. It's a great little sweet banana. Not SDC or TT. Just making sure nobody gets confused.

The only short cycle I can verify is Veinte Cohol. My patupi froze with a flower out the top. Tigua didn't make it either. Monthan is still small. Glui Kui I just received and am excited to see how fast it is. Also have other ones USDA shows as faster than others I will know more this year.

Please try not to confuse new members with totally incorrect information. It is very hard getting into bananas and this is a great info source. Make sure you have at least tested what your saying before suggesting it to new members.

Gabe15
03-04-2017, 09:07 PM
There's a lot I could comment on here, but I just want to point out one important thing that stands out to me.

Tissue cultured plants do have the potential to fruit quicker and yield more than conventional field-dug suckers, but it is not inherent to them being tissue cultured plants.

The reason they can fruit quicker is because they are already rooted upon planting in the field, and so begin foliar growth immediately, whereas a recently separated sucker will have a significant latent period of root establishment required before foliar growth resumes which can be (in my experience) anywhere from 1 to 3 months depending on a variety of factors. You can separate a sucker and pot and put it in the nursery for awhile and let it grow roots and begin foliar growth again, and then when you plant it in the field from that date the effect is the same as if it were a tissue cultured plant.

Additionally for suckers, being separated from established mats in the field, also have a much higher chance of harboring pests and diseases (particularly nematodes) which can put strain onto the newly establishing plants if present, thus potentially delaying fruiting reducing yield. Tissue cultured plants are generally screened for viruses, and then grown in sterile conditions and kept in a (hopefully) clean nursery situation, and so the plants start off clean. Again like with the rooting situation detailed above, if you have a completely clean (and rooted) sucker, it will behave the same in the field as a tissue cultured plant of similar physiological maturity.

Tytaylor77
03-04-2017, 09:17 PM
I totally agree Gabe. The rerooting does take time sometimes. On average Using my methods I normally get new leaf growth around 2 weeks. Once in awhile you get a stubborn one that takes a month. After that mat/plant has been established however the ratoon will produce how much faster than a new TC? On average as a guess would you say? There is no comparison to new TC.

I didn't want any confusion. Edwmax was suggesting to dig up the corms at the end of the year and replace them with new TC plants next year. That's like starting over every year.

Gabe15
03-04-2017, 09:54 PM
After that mat/plant has been established however the ratoon will produce how much faster than a new TC? On average as a guess would you say? There is no comparison to new TC.

The ratoon shoot would probably be faster than a sucker planted, but it's hard to compare to a non-specified tissue culture plant as the plant sizes can vary widely. Counting time to fruiting from planting is difficult to predict exactly when considering different sizes of starter plants.

As a thought experiment, consider if a plant is growing in the nursery for 3 months and then planted in the ground and only takes 7 months to fruit. That is fast compared to 10 months for a new sucker on a mat in the field, but then again you aren't counting the 3 months spent in the nursery, so in reality they are equal. Alternatively, a sucker which is separated from the mat and transplanted when it has already been growing for 3 months would also see a reduced time to fruiting.

A new tissue culture plant can be very fast, but comparing their physiological age to a given sucker can be difficult.

JP
03-04-2017, 09:54 PM
Rooting in coarse sand works way faster. And better too. I grow in pots though.

Gabe15
03-04-2017, 10:06 PM
If you do separate suckers and you can manage to preserve some of the roots and plant it right away, it will greatly speed things up and you may not notice any lag period, but in many cases, especially when dealing with a bulk amount of plants, you might need to hold on to them for a bit before planting, and for sanitation purposes it is always a good idea to clean off all the roots to inspect for weevils and treat the corm for potential nematode stow-aways. This also is just my experience from growing in the tropics where pest and disease issues are much more important to consider, in small scale hobby situations outside of the tropics, its not as important to go such activities for transplanting suckers.

Tytaylor77
03-04-2017, 10:20 PM
I totally agree with clean rootless corms they take a month or sometimes more. I always try to keep as many roots as possible. I see where they make the comparison now. Gabe you know how suckers on a full sized plant comes up. They are 3" or more across right when they come through the surface on some varieties. I would agree it all depends on roots.

One thing great about zone 8b is no nematodes and major pests. Guess winter is good for something after all haha. Thanks Gabe You are very knowledgeable and experienced and I always appreciate your comments.

One question? Me and banana friends have been talking about banana PH. I've read between 5.0-6.5. During your studies did they ever mention the exact magic number for bananas to grow at 100% optimal growth. I know varieties differ but let's just say cavendish since it's the major commercial banana.

Gabe15
03-04-2017, 10:44 PM
One question? Me and banana friends have been talking about banana PH. I've read between 5.0-6.5. During your studies did they ever mention the exact magic number for bananas to grow at 100% optimal growth. I know varieties differ but let's just say cavendish since it's the major commercial banana.

There is no exact magic number, but generally for most crops having a slightly acidic soil pH in the 5.5-6.8 range is ideal due to nutrient availability dynamics. The efficiency of uptake of essential nutrients is variable depending on pH, and somewhere around 6.5 is where all of the essential nutrients have decent availability. Some plants prefer soils outside side of this range, but bananas generally do well between 5.5 and 6.5. Bananas are very dependent on potassium, which availability starts to drop off at around 6.0 and gets worse with increasing acidity (lower pH).

Here is a link to basic information about plant nutrients and pH relations: https://www.pioneer.com/home/site/us/agronomy/library/managing-soil-pH

edwmax
03-04-2017, 10:52 PM
The link to Dr. Fonsah 2003 report is fixed. In it He stated the trial was of "Thirty-one
different cultivars were donated to by Agri-Starts" (TC plantlets; 155 +/- plants ???) and two corms. Additionally it was stated that flowering was expected at 22 weeks after planting. Three of the TCs did flower at 25 weeks but temperatures soon after fell below freezing on November 14th (thus ending the test plot and chance of any other plant flowering). ... I am not confused about what was reported by Dr. Fonsah.

The paper you linked to is an 'Economic' study of Veinte Cohol potential. Of the 10 banana plants grown, 8 of those were TCs. The other 2 were corms. In one growing season (in Georgia), they ALL fruited. ... However, the report does not give info on how the TC plantlets were prepped and grown in the greenhouse; nor does it state the time from field planting to fruiting. ... You said, your attempt the grow Veinte Cohol from TCs to fruiting in one season failed. But the 8 Tcs (the very same exact clone you pictured ???) in that report by Dr. Fonsah DID.

You state you have more experience than I at growing bananas. That I will not argue, but why don't you use that experience to help us 'less' experienced banana growers to make this work? The very report you linked appears to indicates it WILL work.

edwmax
03-04-2017, 10:59 PM
There's a lot I could comment on here, but I just want to point out one important thing that stands out to me.

Tissue cultured plants do have the potential to fruit quicker and yield more than conventional field-dug suckers, but it is not inherent to them being tissue cultured plants.

The reason they can fruit quicker is because they are already rooted upon planting in the field, and so begin foliar growth immediately, whereas a recently separated sucker will have a significant latent period of root establishment required before foliar growth resumes which can be (in my experience) anywhere from 1 to 3 months depending on a variety of factors. You can separate a sucker and pot and put it in the nursery for awhile and let it grow roots and begin foliar growth again, and then when you plant it in the field from that date the effect is the same as if it were a tissue cultured plant.

Additionally for suckers, being separated from established mats in the field, also have a much higher chance of harboring pests and diseases (particularly nematodes) which can put strain onto the newly establishing plants if present, thus potentially delaying fruiting reducing yield. Tissue cultured plants are generally screened for viruses, and then grown in sterile conditions and kept in a (hopefully) clean nursery situation, and so the plants start off clean. Again like with the rooting situation detailed above, if you have a completely clean (and rooted) sucker, it will behave the same in the field as a tissue cultured plant of similar physiological maturity.


This is very much the reason & benefits the African farmers are being pushed to replant using TC or their own micro-propagated plants. And, the older established plants are destroyed or harvested.

Tytaylor77
03-04-2017, 11:42 PM
Oh it does work. VC will go from a 3' pup or TC to fruit in my zone well before first frost. It has for me every year I have tried it and will again this year. I planted several VC 2 days ago and they are on their way, they will fruit this year before frost.

In my experience a TC plant if you even get what it is labeled as will not outperform a pup. I am done with TCs as I'm sure many others on this forum will say the same. Why buy them when you have more pups than you need? There is no corm weevils and banana nematodes in our zone. We have none of the problems they have in the tropics. Again I say show me proof. Do you have Brazilian or Orinoco? Just pay shipping and I will send you a pup. I have them all over right now. You have to agree to pot, water, and grow exactly like I say for a month then plant them into the ground. I 100% guarantee you they will outperform your TC. Seriously PM me. Should cost $10 shipped. I'm serious I want you to compare.

Here is my method. Works every year:
In fall before cool wether usually before thanksgiving I cut all the pups I plan to overwinter. I'm not spending the $ to keep my greenhouse at 60F even here that would cost a lot. I keep it above 40F. If it hits 40F my system turns heat lamps and electric heaters on automatically.

They stay dormant and rooted until I am ready. Early spring they will start growing some. Usually 3-4 leafs by the time I plant them. I plant them in the ground and that's it. Super easy.

I have overwintered HUGE pups and still not gotten fruit unless they are in ground. I have gotten flowers and bunches but not ripe fruit. You have an early start. You will see this year how they do. All I can go by is my experience here in my zone. Should be about the same as yours. I live right on a 4 mile wide lake that helps me a little. Zone 9a is still a good 60 miles from here though.

I wasn't aware of the link I will check it out. However most varieties take well over 300 days to fruit in the tropics. That's Puerto Rico I'm talking. Perfect banana growing climate. A few take under 300 days. USDA Tars has all the info listed. Go check it out. just search Musa. Pictures and info all there.

https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/search.aspx

I am trying hard to get single season fruit from these varieties:
Patupi, Tigua, Monthan, Glui Kui, Chini Chompa, Nino, and a couple others. I haven't had success with anything except VC so far. And almost Patupi. I am confident patupi will with this year. Glui Kui also. I will not say or recommend anything until I try it and do it.

edwmax
03-04-2017, 11:50 PM
I found the original study test plot for the above referenced Veinte Cohol. Out of 63 banana plants, 32 flowered 4 months after transplanting to the field at Tifton, Ga. These 32 plants include 8 other banana varieties as well as the Veinte Cohol. (Novaria, Blue Torres Island, Cacambou, Dwf Nino, Gold Finger. Grand Nain, Gypumgusi, and Chinese Cavendish)

Tytaylor77
03-05-2017, 12:10 AM
I found the original study test plot for the above referenced Veinte Cohol. Out of 63 banana plants, 32 flowered 4 months after transplanting to the field at Tifton, Ga. These 32 plants include 8 other banana varieties as well as the Veinte Cohol. (Novaria, Blue Torres Island, Cacambou, Dwf Nino, Gold Finger. Grand Nain, Gypumgusi, and Chinese Cavendish)

TC to flower in 120 days. They are way better growers than me. Even overwintering a 6' goldfinger in the ground (which it stays dormant) it takes me 300 total days from digging to flower. Then an extra 3-4 month to ripen. Gran Nain it took 330 days to flower.

Cavendish, VC and other AA types are so cold sensitive when they get hit with nights below 50s they totally stop growing and take sometimes 2 weeks to reset. Not arguing just sharing my experience.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you prove this and change my mind. You have your TC plants. Can't wait to see you flower picks in 4 months. I have my corms and you will be seeing mine a couple months later.

Good luck and I'm very serious about the corm offer. I have a goldfinger corm if you wanna compare that one. PM me. :bananas_b

edwmax
03-05-2017, 12:47 AM
Oh it does work. VC will go from a 3' pup or TC to fruit in my zone well before first frost. It has for me every year I have tried it and will again this year. ...

But you previously stated: ...

You also say nobody has tried what you are saying. I HAVE. I even got my TC plants from the same location as Dr Fonsah from USDA Tars in PR. Same exact clone and material they used for the study. ...

Did this banana bloom for me within one year. No. ...

Ok, a little change what you were saying between the above two quotes. So now you seem to agree this can work.

...

For me growing a TC in summer it takes it 6 months at least to equal a 3' pups corm and size. How is that same 4 inch tall banana gonna outgrow a 3-4 foot pup. Not possible. ...

Your missing the point here. The reason for growing the TC from October to April/May ( 6 - 7 months) in the greenhouse is to get it a 3 to 4 ft height for transplanting. This would be about 180 to 220 days of the plant normal growing cycle. Which then leaves 150 to 160 days for fruiting and harvest before frost.


...

Now you can do it with a TC. Plant a VC TC whenever just make sure it's 3-4 foot come spring and plant it. By first frost you will have bananas in zone 8b and surely zone 8a where the study was done. ...

I'm glad we actually agree here, because I said 3 to 5 ft. tall in my above post.

...

Why buy new TCs to regrow when you have 7+ pups per Vac each year. They pup like crazy. The Dr is saying remove pups that fall to be planted out over 3' in spring.

...

Why not sell the pups for $10/ ea (actually VC corms are going for $30/ea) and buy TCs at $2 /ea. ?? But of course if one still has surplus pups, then replant them.

Tytaylor77
03-05-2017, 12:57 PM
Sounds great on a paper and can be done if you have university $$ resources. If you have a 60F min temp greenhouse to overwinter in (pups only need above 32F). Anything can be done with time and $ I'm saying it's not as efficient and easy as pups are. In my experience.


I can quote too.
You need to learn how to grow bananas and I suspect your first ones will die. Just learn and go buy a new plant
I didn't loose any of my first TCs or pups.

Specifically what I learned from the loss of my little plants
Doesn't sound as easy as you say.

Now the above (member replies) recommendations to use dwarf banana varieties is that these being shorter plants, they will grow to fruiting height sooner than their full size cousin.
Where is your research to back this up?

The full size banana plants (14 to 20 ft tall) take from 260 to 300 days of warm growing weather to fruit; and another 90 to 120 days to harvest ripe fruit. This is a total of 13 to 15 months (+/-) for ripe fruit
Now here you have the accurate fruiting times. Or longer. Same times the USDA Tars gov research station in PR says. In the tropics. Are they incorrect?

Truly Tiny I recommended above grows to 2.5 to 3 ft tall and fruits a small fat little banana (aka: kiddy banana)
I would love to hear anyone's experience with truly tiny being short cycle and fruiting reliably every year. Also how many lbs was the bunches? I would also love to see pictures of the kiddie banana commercial farms. Hundreds of 3' plants would look so cool.

buy TCs at $2 /ea.
Most online sellers sell for $20 shipped. You can buy for $2 per plant if you buy a 72 plant tray from agristarts. Plus shipping? Shipping is high. Also they require you to have a nursery licenses. Then pots and potting soil to pot up and a huge greenhouse to harden them off with a very big very good heating system to keep at or above 60F.

I have purchased the following TC plants and this is what I actually received.
Truly tiny - truly tiny - :)
Veinte cohol - dwarf cavendish - :(
BJ ice cream - tall namwa - :(
Dwarf Orinoco - dwarf Orinoco. - :)
Mysore PC - Mysore PC - :)
Raja puri - dwarf cavendish - :(
Raja puri - ? Not RP - :(
Goldfinger - Goldfinger off type - still :)
Manzano - braziallian pome type - :(

From the following sources. Wellsprings, Florida hill, green earth, eBay.

Maybe this is another reason I dislike TC. This is my honest experience with them. Maybe others have had better success. I enjoy collecting and comparing varieties so I care what I have. I ended up getting PUPs via trades and buying from members on the site. There are some amazing people here and I have made great friends.

Anyway this horse is dead. I have my experience and you have your papers and theories. If your still active here this fall I can't wait to see your results. Please keep us updated. I truly hope you prove me wrong and hope you are successful. Good luck.

edwmax
03-05-2017, 02:44 PM
TC to flower in 120 days. They are way better growers than me. ...

I didn't say TC to flower ... Transplant to flower/bunch. You have to include the greenhouse time. And since that year there was heavy rains, the transplant was delayed 2 months until about mid May. TC to flower was more like 210 days or more. Plant samples were received August, December and January before being set out in the test plot.

Tytaylor77
03-06-2017, 05:34 AM
I didn't say TC to flower ... Transplant to flower/bunch. You have to include the greenhouse time. And since that year there was heavy rains, the transplant was delayed 2 months until about mid May. TC to flower was more like 210 days or more. Plant samples were received August, December and January before being set out in the test plot.

I read over all the materials you listed and totally understand where the mess up is now. Reread it carefully. These are your links.

Paper1:
http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/27149/1/35010086.pdf

Paper2:
http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/26731/1/36010048.pdf

Gonna call them paper 1 and paper 2. in the order they are listed above. Here is a quote from paper 1:
A combination of low tempera- tures and less-than-optimum nutrition was probably the cause of the delayed fruiting. Hopefully, earlier fruit production will occur on the ratoon crop next year

Ratoon crop=the suckers/pups crop. He's talking about the 2nd year pup producing faster. Not replanting but using the existing pstems/pups.

Next is paper 2.
One of our specific objectives was to investigate phenological characteristics such as planting to shooting time, shooting to harvest time and shooting to shooting time in the ratoon crop (second growth).

I'm not gonna quote it all but this is from the conclusion:
The tissue-culture planting materials for this study were about 10 cm tall (approximately 4 inches) and were in 72-cell packs when they arrived. Each plantlet had 4 or 5 leaves and a well-developed root system. The plantlets were grown in the greenhouse for about six weeks before transplanting to the field. Under ideal conditions, these plants would have been grown for at least 12 weeks but because of late arrival of the plants, the nursery time was cut by half. All cultural practices carried out in a semi-modern cultivation system and as explained by Fonsah and Chidebulu (1995) were carried out (sucker pruning, deleafing, weed control, fertility application, etc.).
The plants grew rapidly after planting, until seven months later when all the plants had been scorched by frost. Many plants had pseudostems that survived the winter, but most were killed by the frost of 23 March. Some plants already showed cold hardiness, but we have not generated enough data to substantiate that claim. A few months after the winter, the first bunch emerged on the Musa 1780 cultivar, exactly 13 months after planting. Due to the serious frost that hit the experimental plot in March, the plant had only three leaves during shooting time, which was insufficient to support the bunch until maturity.

I think what is mixing you up is the dates. He quotes papers such as this: The soil characteristics were explained in Fonsah, Krewer, and Rieger (2004).

The way he does this in the paper is kinda confusing. But the study was done for a 2 year period. The TC plants were received in March 3rd 2003. NO NEW TC PLANTS WERE RECEIVED IN 2004. The study was done with the same plants still in the ground over winter.

edwmax
03-06-2017, 01:24 PM
This is an index of Fonsah 'banana' papers. And, yes the 35010086; 35010048; 277-Fonsah; 38030018 reports are all on the SAME test plot planted in 2003 at Savanna, Ga.

The Fonsah-Bogortti and Fonsah-42-1 report is of the new banana trial planted May 11, 2009 at Tifton, Ga

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/27931/1/34010099.pdf : INTEGRATED QUALITY-CONTROL MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES IN BANANA PRODUCTION, PACKAGING, AND MARKETING; Mar-2003

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/27149/1/35010086.pdf : BANANA CULTIVAR TRIALS FOR FRUIT PRODUCTION, ORNAMENTAL-LANDSCAPE USE, AND ORNAMENTAL-NURSERY PRODUCTION IN SOUTH GEORGIA; Mar-2004

Summary: Paper intro comment: 'In the commercial production system utilizing Cavendish varieties such as “Williams” or “Grand Nain,” planting toshooting takes about 20–22 weeks from and shooting to harvest about 12 weeks. This time can be shortened by about 8 weeks when tissue-culture plants are used'.

TC plant arrived late, cutting greenhouse time to 6 weeks to meet transplant time. Statement in conclustion: "we found that starting with tissue culture plants in March did not provideadequate time for fruit production during the 2003 season." However, 3 plant did shoot 25 weeks after planting. A frost occured after shooting on November 14, 2003. Conclusion states: 'Conclusion states: 'For optimum results, the best time to start with tissue culture plants is from mid-November to mid-December'.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/26731/1/36010048.pdf : Second Year Banana Cultivar Trial in South Georgia; Mar-2005

Summary: Recaps the arrival of the TC plant. 'The plantlets were grown in the greenhousefor about six weeks before transplanting to the field. Under ideal conditions, these plants would havebeen grown for at least 12 weeks but because of late arrival of the plants, the nursery time was cut by half.' ... Discusses the choked plants/malformed bunches that flowered between March & June. Noted cultivars flowering after July with normal bunches.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/189902/2/277_Fonsah.pdf : Third-Year Banana Cultivar Trial in South Georgia; Mar-2006

Summary: Discusses ACP problems for that year and compaires bunch production to 2nd year production.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/46584/2/38030018.pdf : Banana Trials: A Potential Niche and Ethnic Market in Georgia; 2007

Summary: Recaps & summarises the trial results from 2003 to 2006 of the plot planted in 2003; and quility & marketability of bananas. Concludes 'The ideal time for banana fruits production in Georgia is from July to August so that harvest*ing, packaging, distribution and marketing can take place from mid-October to mid-November'.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/162190/2/FonsahBogortti.pdf : New Banana Cultivars Trial in the Coastal Plain of South Georgia; Mar-2010

Summary: A new banana Trial test plot at Tifton, Ga of 63 cultivars planted May 11, 2009. Planting was delayed 2 months due to heavy rains (17 inches). 32 of the 63 plants produced fruit 4 months after planting.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/139284/2/Fonsah_42_1.pdf : Growth Performance and Economic Potential of 'Veinte Cohol': A Short-Cycle Banana Cultivar Produced in the Coastal Plain of Georgia; Mar-2011

Tytaylor77
03-06-2017, 07:07 PM
That's the correct information. Thanks for posting it.

Again what you tell the OP will happen is not proven other than with VC. You suggest buying dwarf cavendish or truly tiny TC plants and they will fruit before first frost. All the other varieties other than VC did NOT produce ripe or even filled fruit.

My VC sucker method still flowers and is harvested well before frost the same as the TCs in the test. (Suckers they used did also) and my method keep the greenhouse above 32F vs 60F. Also free pups vs buying new TC each year.

I have early pups that come up every year. February pups I would say 99% of them fruit before first frost. The bunch gets killed by the first frost but they flower just like in the study. You will find a flower is a long ways away from a ripe bunch.

My method costs very little vs the university budget method and gets the same results.

Good luck and keep us updated with your progress.

Gabe15
03-06-2017, 09:33 PM
Dwarf plants don't inherently fruit faster than their full sized counterparts, they are not just shorter, they are compact, and so each new leaf does not add as much height, but all things being equal they need to produce the same amount of leaves as a taller plant, and so they stay short, but they do not inherently get to maturity quicker.

Little Belle
05-25-2017, 11:23 AM
I am piggybacking on Vlad's thread. I hope you don't mind Vlad. I am a banana newbie also. My only experience is growing a Dwarf Lady Finger from Logees and a Dwarf Cadavish - both in containers. The Dwarf Lady Finger died after 2 years of doing well; the Dwarf Cadavish seems to be doing fine. Rather than just jumping in (like I want to), without knowing what the heck I am doing, I have decided to wait until Spring 2018 to plant some bananas in my back yard. This should give me plenty of time to read up on how to grow bananas, which to purchase, how to prepare the site, etc. I am in Zone 8a (or 7b), Charlotte NC, and I want to grow edible bananas, preferably in a single season (if possible). So, I guess I am looking at short-cycle and/or dwarf varieties. Unfortunately, I do not have a greenhouse. Should I plan on buying some plants now, or in the Summer or Fall and growing them in containers outside and then moving them into my home in a sunny window until Spring, or should I just buy large plants in the Spring that are "field ready" and can be planted in the ground shortly after purchasing them? I imagine large plants purchased in Spring can be expensive. I would rather not spend a fortune if I don't have to. Moving on to which varieties to purchase: I see a lot of different opinions on here. I was thinking of maybe 2-3 different kinds-- dwarf, short cycle. I have read that they grow better when you plant a few of each kind together. Is there any merit to this? I think that's it for now. Many questions to follow I'm sure. Thanks for helping me get started. Hopefully some day I will be posting photos of bananas that I have grown! It seems like a neat hobby.