View Full Version : Grow light recommendations?
eharriett
08-20-2016, 02:56 PM
I'm about a month from taking my new banana tree in for the Ohio winter. I live in a home where there isn't too much all day light in the house and I'd like my tree to continue to grow.. I've got a room with very little light, but it always gets super warm during the winter, so it will be a nice room for the banana. I wanted to add a couple of grow lights to keep it going as well.
Can't seem to find any threads about this on the site, so I wanted to ask some recommendations. I know they can get expensive, into the hundreds or even thousands of dollars. I was hoping for something significantly more economical that will do the job for the banana. And just the banana.
I found this on Amazon as an example. Any idea if a couple of these around the tree would work?
https://amzn.com/B00GNWK2XO
Any other ideas for grow lights that banana trees thrive under during the winter?
cincinnana
08-20-2016, 03:50 PM
I'm about a month from taking my new banana tree in for the Ohio winter. I live in a home where there isn't too much all day light in the house and I'd like my tree to continue to grow.. I've got a room with very little light, but it always gets super warm during the winter, so it will be a nice room for the banana. I wanted to add a couple of grow lights to keep it going as well.
Can't seem to find any threads about this on the site, so I wanted to ask some recommendations. I know they can get expensive, into the hundreds or even thousands of dollars. I was hoping for something significantly more economical that will do the job for the banana. And just the banana.
I found this on Amazon as an example. Any idea if a couple of these around the tree would work?
https://amzn.com/B00GNWK2XO
Any other ideas for grow lights that banana trees thrive under during the winter?
Most of the best recommendations are in the Youtube video and cannibis forums....keywords "grow lights for cannibis"..
The lighting requirements are the same. ALOT OF LIGHT FOR THEM TO THRIVE
There are also good informative Youtube videos keywords Growlights for bananas.
Do you have a ceiling fan in that room?
I have a set up with 3- 68 watt spiral cfls which works well in a ceiling fan.
There are also many threads on this lighting subject in the forums which are pretty helpful and detailed to get you started.http://www.bananas.org/f2/grow-light-yes-no-22906.html?highlight=growlights
I find watching the youtube videos the best. you will also find a lot of DIY lighting projects which could fit your budget.
Just pick and choose what you want to use /spend and go from there.
saxybill1
08-20-2016, 03:59 PM
I'm about a month from taking my new banana tree in for the Ohio winter. I live in a home where there isn't too much all day light in the house and I'd like my tree to continue to grow.. I've got a room with very little light, but it always gets super warm during the winter, so it will be a nice room for the banana. I wanted to add a couple of grow lights to keep it going as well.
Can't seem to find any threads about this on the site, so I wanted to ask some recommendations. I know they can get expensive, into the hundreds or even thousands of dollars. I was hoping for something significantly more economical that will do the job for the banana. And just the banana.
I found this on Amazon as an example. Any idea if a couple of these around the tree would work?
https://amzn.com/B00GNWK2XO
Any other ideas for grow lights that banana trees thrive under during the winter?
I have tried several and my last pick would be what you have chosen. Leds are great for germination, but must be very close up to the plant, so coverage is minimized. I myself use cfl lights as they have proven to be quite adequate although led is less expensive to run and do not get hot to the touch. I also have bought my cfl from amazon, they are relatively inexpensive, offer a wider coverage area and the electricity used is minimal. Hope this helps,
Bill
chris_zx2
08-20-2016, 06:33 PM
I built my grow light. 8 x 23 watt cfl's (100 watt equivalent) gives me 800 watts of light. Watts isn't the best way to measure but it gives you a ballpark idea.
With that light through winter I was getting 1 new leaf every 3- 4 days and it costs me about 5$ Canadian a month to run. I'll try to post a pic later but if you can't wait I posted the pic in another thread about a year ago.
saxybill1
08-20-2016, 06:47 PM
Covering how many plants and at what distance. I have 2 of the same as you and wonder if they are enough.
eharriett
08-20-2016, 06:56 PM
At the moment, my tree is still new and growing. But the ceiling is 8 ft. I was going to take a few adjustable floor lamps and put it around the tree with appropriate lighting.
chris_zx2
08-20-2016, 07:01 PM
I had them over a dwarf Cavendish, Meyer lemon, calomondin, coffee, chilli peppers and many others. The dwarf Cavendish was the largest at about 3 feet tall but the small size doesn't matter, I had the light about 6 inches away or it would burn the leaves. Had to check it daily because of the cigar leaves hitting the light.
The fixture was made of aluminum ducting lined with mylar blanket and then I hung the mylar over the light down each side of the shelving unit and a container of water on the shelf. The heat of the light was kept in as well as stray light and it kept the humidity up. This year I have an ice cream, 2 dwarf Cavendish, 2 basjoo and about 20 truly tiny amongst a bunch ofnother fruit trees so I will be adding a second light with another 8 bulbs. I'm not trying to produce or get optimal growth, just keep the plants happy over winter till they can go back outside in pots or in the ground.
chris_zx2
08-20-2016, 07:04 PM
Oh and just to add, I've tried led's instead of cfl's and had terrible results. Cfl's have easy color spectrum led's are way more complicated.
If you use cfl's 6500k is for vegetative growth and 2700k is for fruiting. But 6500k is usually best unless your growing for profit (different hobby). This all carries over to aquatic plants fyi except you need to take into account the depth of water.
Hamakua
08-20-2016, 08:28 PM
You mentioned that you would like them to thrive. Your best bet would be T5's or Metal Halide. Check the craigslist gardening page and buy used.
chris_zx2
08-20-2016, 08:45 PM
In my opinion t5's don't come in the ideal format making them expensive. They are the best when it comes to fluorescent though. As for metal halide....expensive....hot and inefficient. But that's just my 2 cents.
Richard
08-21-2016, 12:54 AM
Your best choice for most plants are an array of fluorescent bulbs with 6500 Kelvin color temperature. You can buy these in CFL, or 2' or 4' bulb lengths. "Color Temperature" is listed somewhere on the packaging of all fluorescent bulbs. Don't be fooled by HPS etc. bulbs claiming 6500K.
If you want to duplicate sunlight you'll need multiple fixtures of 8 x 4 foot T5 HO fluorescent bulbs placed side-by-side and end-to-end so that the power density (as listed for each bulb) adds up to 1200 Watts per square meter.
a.hulva@coxinet.net
08-21-2016, 01:06 AM
Last year I hung 2 bulbs above my plants in the garage. The plants grew like crazy. The following worked perfectly. 2 pack PHOTO bulb. 105 watt, 6500K, 800 watt output, daylight fluorescent. $30.99 Amazon
saxybill1
08-21-2016, 05:36 AM
I just found a site that I consider to have the least expensive cfl bulbs, for instance, a 68 watt 6500k cfl sells for about 15.00, anywhere else, it's 22.00 and up. It's called 1000Bulbs.com..Hope this helps.
Lancelot
08-21-2016, 05:38 AM
My goal isn't for the plants to thrive for the winter, just to survive. I have florescent lights and spot lights with the grow spectrum curly bulbs set up in several spots in my basement. It stays at least 50 degrees down there, if not warmer. I reduce water, enough to keep the soil damp. The plants may put a leaf or two out during this time, but mainly they stay green, ready for when I can put them out in late spring. I will get leaves that turn yellow and brown, so I cut those off as I get them.
I do keep some plants upstairs, some of the bigger ones that are hard to go down steps, and those don't grow too much more than if I had them in the basement. I also have a set of shelves and a series of spot lights in an east window upstairs where I do keep some plants actively growing as much as possible.
I lose very few plants during the winter if any and I've been doing this for 5 plus years now and have over 20 varieties, and over 30 plants just of the banana varieties, so I must be doing something right.
chris_zx2
08-21-2016, 07:48 AM
When you say keep soil damp...could you elaborate. That's my biggest problem with keeping plants dormant, I tend to over water, but in my mind I was keeping the soil damp.
eharriett
08-21-2016, 01:53 PM
Just checked 1000bulbs.com Looks like it might be the winner. They also make something called a dual-arc grow light that looks like it may be the best of both worlds, but I can't use a standard lamp for it. So that might take a little more research.
Thanks Saxybill1, for that suggestion.
saxybill1
08-21-2016, 01:57 PM
Just checked 1000bulbs.com Looks like it might be the winner. They also make something called a dual-arc grow light that looks like it may be the best of both worlds, but I can't use a standard lamp for it. So that might take a little more research.
Thanks Saxybill1, for that suggestion.
Gee, it feels great to help someone of this site as I have received so much
sputinc7
08-21-2016, 03:52 PM
When you say keep soil damp...could you elaborate. That's my biggest problem with keeping plants dormant, I tend to over water, but in my mind I was keeping the soil damp.
I always dug mine up and put them in buckets in the dark, damp basement in winter. I let them go dormant. About a teacup of water once a month or so is sufficient. You want the soil to feel dry but not be dry. I tried keeping some upstairs in pots and watered in the sun, and the dormant ones always caught up to them in about a month once planted back in the ground. I, personally would not bother with the grow lights, but to each his own.
I encourage all to test it out themselves. I would be thrilled to hear of other's conclusions. Get two plants about the same size and kind, dig them up. One goes dormant, the other, keep in sunlight or under grow lights. Put them out in spring next to each other and treat them the same. at the end of the season, how do they compare?
chris_zx2
08-21-2016, 07:14 PM
I'm just not sure I have the right area to keep them dormant. I'm in an apartment building in eastern Canada where it's cold as sh*t!
eharriett
08-21-2016, 07:38 PM
So followup question: Following many of your suggestions, I keep seeing I have to get a different ballast. E39, M55, others depending on what I decide on. Does an adapter exist I could get to put them in the normal edison incandescent socket for a normal lamp?
a.hulva@coxinet.net
08-21-2016, 09:45 PM
Refer to my post on lights. Those bulbs are the curly type Fluorescent and use a standard screw in socket.
Richard
08-21-2016, 09:47 PM
So followup question: Following many of your suggestions, I keep seeing I have to get a different ballast. E39, M55, others depending on what I decide on. Does an adapter exist I could get to put them in the normal edison incandescent socket for a normal lamp?
CFL (compact fluorescent lamp) with color temperature 6500 Kelvin.
cincinnana
08-22-2016, 09:46 PM
So followup question: Following many of your suggestions, I keep seeing I have to get a different ballast. E39, M55, others depending on what I decide on. Does an adapter exist I could get to put them in the normal edison incandescent socket for a normal lamp?
.....here is an example of a setup I had mentioned earlier.
When I say check out YOUTUBE and your still asking Questions... that means we can help.........do not hesitate to ask.
I can tell your poised to have fun with this...
Edison meets ....3X68 watt spiral cfl bulbs for a total output of 900 watts capable of growing maybe three small plants...
.https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7410/13364121055_261e11fe3b_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/mmWBAg)Grow lights 3x 68 watt spiral cfl (https://flic.kr/p/mmWBAg
)
by Hostafarian (https://www.flickr.com/photos/hostafarian/
), on Flickr
OR
.
Another way to start new plants..
This YOUTUBE setup is economical. I have it and a few great members use it also.
25 bucks.....
Bathroom light bar....3.00$ At a rescue
Rest of the cost is Walmart 25..Bucks
I use it to propagate ferns..
I believe CHRIS_zx might use this method also..
Check out his stuff too great points to be had.
And he is a great grower.
Hopefully he will post some of his cool stuff.
.https://c5.staticflickr.com/4/3746/13522705804_9b697b8fd5_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/mAXpj5)
12 cfl growlight setup for ferns (https://flic.kr/p/mAXpj5)
by
Hostafarian (https://www.flickr.com/photos/hostafarian/),
on Flickr
.Here are some more under a few lights which might inspire you.
.https://c4.staticflickr.com/9/8006/28499837403_bf0b457656_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Kqr7JX)
Plants overwintered (https://flic.kr/p/Kqr7JX) by
Hostafarian (https://www.flickr.com/photos/hostafarian/),
on Flickr
eharriett
08-22-2016, 10:42 PM
Sir/mam.....here is an example of a setup I had mentioned earlier.
When I say check out YOUTUBE and your still asking Questions... that means we can help.........do not hesitate to ask.
I can tell your poised to have fun with this...
Yup. Was on youtube most of last night :) Info overload. So thanks, the pics helped. And youtube was fascinating in bringing up more questions CFL vs MH. Thanks for showing it can be done with the CFL.
cincinnana
08-22-2016, 10:49 PM
Yup. Was on youtube most of last night :) Info overload. So thanks, the pics helped. And youtube was fascinating in bringing up more questions CFL vs MH. Thanks for showing it can be done with the CFL.
A :08:cup of coffee helps....
saxybill1
08-25-2016, 10:21 PM
[QUOTE=cincinnana;297354]Most of the best recommendations are in the Youtube video and cannibis forums....keywords "grow lights for cannibis"..
The lighting requirements are the same. ALOT OF LIGHT FOR THEM TO THRIVE
There are also good informative Youtube videos keywords Growlights for bananas.
Do you have a ceiling fan in that room?
I have a set up with 3- 68 watt spiral cfls which works well in a ceiling fan.
There are also many threads on this lighting subject in the forums which are pretty helpful and detailed to get you started.http://www.bananas.org/f2/grow-light-yes-no-22906.html?highlight=growlights
I find watching the youtube videos the best. you will also find a lot of DIY lighting projects which could fit your budget.
I'd like to use 100 watt cfl bulbs in my ceiling fixtures that I now use 65 watt incandescent bulbs . I'm concerned with the safety issues associated with this idea, although the 100 watt cfl use only 23 watts, can I use the 100 watt cfl in these fixtures?
Thanks
cincinnana
09-10-2016, 08:42 PM
So what is the plan going on here????
Good money can be spent on this!!
eharriett
09-11-2016, 12:49 AM
So what is the plan going on here????
Good money can be spent on this!!
By a strange coincidence, I made my choice and my setup just came today!
I got some great input. I decided to get a MH grow light system. Cost a little bit more, but when I stated breaking things down, it actually wasn't that much more expensive than an LED setup or a T5. Electricity bill will be a bit higher, but I can live with it. The combination of light plus added heat which I will need in the winter here in Ohio made my decision for me.
I was trying to hang it today, looks like I'm having some difficulty with hanging the fixture, getting the hooks properly in it. But I tested it and it is working fine. Still have a couple weeks before I'll need to bring the tree in, so I'm sure I'll have that problem licked by then.
If anyone is interested, this is the fixture I bought. Cheaper by far than other MH systems, and for my one tree, maybe a second later, 400 watts appears to be fine.
Thanks all, for the input. It has been helpful.
Flash Sale 400 Watt Ballast Hydroponic HID Grow Light MH HPS Bulb Reflector | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLASH-SALE-400-Watt-Ballast-Hydroponic-HID-Grow-Light-MH-HPS-Bulb-Reflector-/112050554164?hash=item1a16bbc534:g:9q8AAOxyfS1R1z8u)
cincinnana
09-11-2016, 06:07 PM
By a strange coincidence, I made my choice and my setup just came today!
I got some great input. I decided to get a MH grow light system. Cost a little bit more, but when I stated breaking things down, it actually wasn't that much more expensive than an LED setup or a T5. Electricity bill will be a bit higher, but I can live with it. The combination of light plus added heat which I will need in the winter here in Ohio made my decision for me.
I was trying to hang it today, looks like I'm having some difficulty with hanging the fixture, getting the hooks properly in it. But I tested it and it is working fine. Still have a couple weeks before I'll need to bring the tree in, so I'm sure I'll have that problem licked by then.
If anyone is interested, this is the fixture I bought. Cheaper by far than other MH systems, and for my one tree, maybe a second later, 400 watts appears to be fine.
Thanks all, for the input. It has been helpful.
Great purchase.....
eharriett
01-06-2017, 01:18 AM
Hi again, all! I thought I would update my post to show you the progress this little whipper snapper has made since I brought it into the house in early October. Have to spray him for aphids every couple days. But aside from that, he's growing really well. I think by the time it is warm enough to take him outside again the light will be at the ceiling and he'll be at max growth (timed this one just right).
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=61109&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=61109)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=61108&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=61108)
CraigSS
01-06-2017, 10:05 AM
I just found a site that I consider to have the least expensive cfl bulbs, for instance, a 68 watt 6500k cfl sells for about 15.00, anywhere else, it's 22.00 and up. It's called 1000Bulbs.com..Hope this helps. :banana-computer:
I too bought from 1000Bulbs.com. I hung my 4 foot T5's vertically every 3 feet from each other. They came with brackets that you can set so the fixture can be raised and lowered easily. I have 5 banana plants and 6 citrus trees in an indoor arboretum 14'l X 6'w X 21'h. Room has 4 skylights (facing east), one 10" suntube and one 14" suntube (facing south). The lights come on at 06:30 and go off at 10am. Then back on at 6pm and off at 10pm. The banana plants send up a new leaf every 12 days. We keep the house at 60*F during the evening and 66*F during the day. So the arboretum stays about 65*F all day long. I did add a humidifier to the room to keep the humidity at 65%.
I can not wait until the canopy gets higher and I can walk under the leaves instead of walking into them.
Hope this helps some.
Keep the lights on for a good amount of time.
Keep the temperature up (the higher the better).
Keep the leaves misted or add a humidifier.
Talk to your plants, they like the CO2.
Happy growing.
Craig
Jomppe
01-10-2017, 05:31 AM
I will put mine bananas after germination under two 100w, 6500kelvin ESL-bulbs, as we call them here.
Actually I had to google what CFL means :D
Already there is various citruses, mango, coffee plants, lucky bean plant, starfruit, tamarind, different kind of ficuses and so on..
Bananas are a good add in to my collection. And yes, those plants are quite small, approximately 1 year old plants.
I need to buy some stronger bulbs, or couple more of those 100w..
Anyhow, plants go strong, even if the humidity is only around 35-40% now during the winter.
Regular misting, 4-5 times a day makes really a difference!
cincinnana
02-05-2017, 10:33 PM
I will put mine bananas after germination under two 100w, 6500kelvin ESL-bulbs, as we call them here.
Actually I had to google what CFL means :D
Already there is various citruses, mango, coffee plants, lucky bean plant, starfruit, tamarind, different kind of ficuses and so on..
Bananas are a good add in to my collection. And yes, those plants are quite small, approximately 1 year old plants.
I need to buy some stronger bulbs, or couple more of those 100w..
Anyhow, plants go strong, even if the humidity is only around 35-40% now during the winter.
Regular misting, 4-5 times a day makes really a difference!
Are you able to post photos ???
Jomppe
02-06-2017, 02:15 AM
Are you able to post photos ???
I quess I am, just need to take some :)
Right now the space under lights is way overcrowded, need definitively buy one or two more of those.
CraigSS
02-06-2017, 07:54 AM
Another Bathroom Banana.
Rare Species; but growing in popularity.
Craig:ha:
eharriett
02-06-2017, 10:58 AM
Another Bathroom Banana.
Rare Species; but growing in popularity.
Craig:ha:
They are for those of us with cold winters :nanadrink:
cincinnana
02-08-2017, 07:01 AM
I will put mine bananas after germination under two 100w, 6500kelvin ESL-bulbs, as we call them here.
Actually I had to google what CFL means :D
Already there is various citruses, mango, coffee plants, lucky bean plant, starfruit, tamarind, different kind of ficuses and so on..
Bananas are a good add in to my collection. And yes, those plants are quite small, approximately 1 year old plants.
I need to buy some stronger bulbs, or couple more of those 100w..
Anyhow, plants go strong, even if the humidity is only around 35-40% now during the winter.
Regular misting, 4-5 times a day makes really a difference!
Sounds like a great setup.
Jomppe
02-10-2017, 08:31 AM
Yes, this setup worked really well with peppers, so I assume those will perform the same with tropicalls.
Havent got time to take some pictures, quit busy time now. I'll post some pics, sooner or later.
I found out 3 Birds of paradise had germinated, and calamondin citrus is blooming.
cincinnana
02-11-2017, 11:04 PM
Yes, this setup worked really well with peppers, so I assume those will perform the same with tropicalls.
Havent got time to take some pictures, quit busy time now. I'll post some pics, sooner or later.
I found out 3 Birds of paradise had germinated, and calamondin citrus is blooming.
I grow a few ferns with a few 28 watt cfls that seem to do well.
Yur set up sounds great it should do well for you.
My light setup though small and inefficient and frugal does not promote rapid growth, just enough to keep them growin.
aruzinsky
02-24-2017, 09:51 AM
Look for local bargains on LED bulbs for household lighting such as this one:
http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/LedBargain.jpg
The $0.99 bulb on the left is rated at 1600 lumens and 14 watts for a luminous efficiency of 114 lumens/watt which exceeds that of any fluorescent bulb. And, even at equal lumens, these type of LED bulbs are better than CFL for plants because more light energy is produced between 620 and 700 nm for which the human eye is insensitive but plants strongly utilize. Fluorescent bulbs typically have a sharp spike at 611 nm (orange-red) and almost no output at longer wavelengths.
cincinnana
03-01-2017, 09:14 PM
Look for local bargains on LED bulbs for household lighting such as this one:
http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/LedBargain.jpg
The $0.99 bulb on the left is rated at 1600 lumens and 14 watts for a luminous efficiency of 114 lumens/watt which exceeds that of any fluorescent bulb. And, even at equal lumens, these type of LED bulbs are better than CFL for plants because more light energy is produced between 620 and 700 nm for which the human eye is insensitive but plants strongly utilize. Fluorescent bulbs typically have a sharp spike at 611 nm (orange-red) and almost no output at longer wavelengths.
Call me crazi but.
Is a 2700k lamp a little short for a grow lamp .
While a balanced 2700k-6500k cfl setup is more suitable for optimal growth and flower.
I would balance the nm with a 6500k spiral @68 watts 8 inches above the plant
Are inexpensive household 2700k led lamps better than alternative comparable cfls other than energy usage
Richard
03-01-2017, 09:40 PM
lumens
Lumens is a measure of human perception of brightness. In professional horticulture, source intensity is always measured in Watts.
aruzinsky
03-02-2017, 10:29 AM
Lumens is a measure of human perception of brightness. In professional horticulture, source intensity is always measured in Watts.
Not exactly. Most typically, the power output (watts) of photoactive radiation (PAR) is used in professional horticulture. And, scientists often use photon flux (PPF). See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetically_active_radiation
I mentioned "lumens" only because the PAR value of most bulbs is not specified whereas the lumen rating is. All else equal, the bulb with the highest lumens is best. But, as I previously mentioned, at equal lumens, a household LED bulb has a higher PAR output than fluorescent. This is the typical spectrum of a household LED bulb:
https://glarminy.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/led-color-temperature-vs-spectral-power-distribution-normalized.gif
This is the typical spectrum of a household fluorescent:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/UnknownVT/CPF/ecoSmartTrueColor_12-0911-xln-56112789p.jpg
Compare with the action spectrum of an average plant:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Photosynthesis_yield_photon_flux_spectral_weighting.svg/500px-Photosynthesis_yield_photon_flux_spectral_weighting.svg.png
And, you can see that the LED has much more PAR between 620 and 700 nm.
aruzinsky
03-02-2017, 10:46 AM
Call me crazi but.
Is a 2700k lamp a little short for a grow lamp .
While a balanced 2700k-6500k cfl setup is more suitable for optimal growth and flower.
I would balance the nm with a 6500k spiral @68 watts 8 inches above the plant
Are inexpensive household 2700k led lamps better than alternative comparable cfls other than energy usage
You can buy daylight LED bulbs for household lighting but you will also get a proportionately higher dose of green light with the bulb. But, here is what I did:
http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/LED1.jpg
http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/LED2.jpg
http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/LED3.jpg
Richard
03-02-2017, 11:26 AM
Not exactly.
Yes exactly.
You seem to have a misunderstanding of "spectrum". LED's produce single frequencies. Sure you can gang up LED's at say, 5nm intervals but still in physics we would never consider that a spectrum. Instead, it is a series of point frequencies. This is why the graph you provided for the "typical spectrum of a household LED bulb" is incorrect. An accurate graph (or measurement) would be a series of vertical bars with no lines connecting frequency point to frequency point.
Now since PAR is a measurement of fitness (similar to least-squares) of one spectrum to another it is completely inapplicable to LED sources.
Further, I have never recommended "a household fluorescent" for plants -- nor would I. Instead I've specifically recommended 6500 Kelvin bulbs installed at a power density of 1200 Watts per square meter of projection -- the projection surface measured one meter from the source.
With regard to lumens, it is measured by flux of the green portion of the spectrum which plants do not use. So "more lumens" never means anything of use for judging benefit to plants. However, I noticed the term lumens is highly touted in head shops.
aruzinsky
03-02-2017, 04:02 PM
Yes exactly.
You seem to have a misunderstanding of "spectrum". LED's produce single frequencies. Sure you can gang up LED's at say, 5nm intervals but still in physics we would never consider that a spectrum. Instead, it is a series of point frequencies. This is why the graph you provided for the "typical spectrum of a household LED bulb" is incorrect. An accurate graph (or measurement) would be a series of vertical bars with no lines connecting frequency point to frequency point.
Now since PAR is a measurement of fitness (similar to least-squares) of one spectrum to another it is completely inapplicable to LED sources.
Further, I have never recommended "a household fluorescent" for plants -- nor would I. Instead I've specifically recommended 6500 Kelvin bulbs installed at a power density of 1200 Watts per square meter of projection -- the projection surface measured one meter from the source.
With regard to lumens, it is measured by flux of the green portion of the spectrum which plants do not use. So "more lumens" never means anything of use for judging benefit to plants. However, I noticed the term lumens is highly touted in head shops.
You are dead wrong and you pontificate without presenting verifiable references which I consider unethical.
Technically, household LED bulbs are fluorescent but we don't call them "fluorescent" to avoid confusion with traditional fluorescent bulbs. Traditional fluorescent bulbs are coated with phosphors that convert ultraviolet light to longer wavelengths. Similarly, household LED bulbs contain blue LEDs that are coated with phosphors that convert part of the blue light to longer wavelengths. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor#White_LEDs
And, note that unlike you, I present verifiable references to back up my statements.
And, you can buy chips consisting of blue LEDs coated with special phosphors just for growing plants, e.g., see 100W 50W 30W 20W 10W 3W 380NM-840NM Full Spectrum High Power LED Chip Grow Light | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-50W-30W-20W-10W-3W-380NM-840NM-Full-Spectrum-High-Power-LED-Chip-Grow-Light-/321831784996?var=&hash=item76ec059f6f)
Here is the spectrum on the left (ignore the one on the right because it is wrong):
http://g01.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1BgTsFVXXXXXvXXXXq6xXFXXX6/201828168/HTB1BgTsFVXXXXXvXXXXq6xXFXXX6.jpg
Incidentally, the most efficient light sources that you can buy (as opposed to a laboratory curiosity) are blue LED chips which are about 52% efficient (watts/watt). In contrast, a traditional fluorescent bulb is typically 22% efficient. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp#Luminous_efficacy
and note:
"whereas typical fluorescent lamps convert about 22% of the power input to visible white light."
Richard
03-03-2017, 11:12 AM
You are dead wrong and you pontificate without presenting verifiable references which I consider unethical.
I'm the reference. Sorry you missed out on the undergraduate and graduate courses I taught.
aruzinsky
03-03-2017, 12:51 PM
Getting back to objectivity, there exist direct LED replacements for T5 fluorescent tubes. Although I would never use them because they are unnecessarily costly, some have been empirically proven to grow lettuce better than fluorescent at a lower wattage in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KcJf1Tbmbg
Notice in the video that the LED T5 tube is visually less blue than the fluorescent.
This is the Spectral Power Density (SPD) of the LED tube in the video:
http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/TranscendSPD.png
which was from this PDF: https://www.transcendlighting.com/uploads/2/4/2/3/24238850/t5_overview_spec.pdf
The SPD of the Transcend LED tube is not very different than that for a 2700 K A19 LED bulb. Two 14 watt A19 bulbs can be bought for $2 whereas I don't know what the Transcend tube costs because sellers are sold out:
https://uedata.amazon.com/LED-High-Output-grow-light/dp/B01BEBJQ30
Anyway, there is a glut of other brands available.
Richard
03-03-2017, 02:05 PM
lettuce
We're talking about "Container Grown Banana Plants" -- not lettuce.
For indoor "Container Grown Banana Plants", what spectrum and what Watts/meter^2 are you recommending?
aruzinsky
03-03-2017, 04:08 PM
We're talking about "Container Grown Banana Plants" -- not lettuce.
For indoor "Container Grown Banana Plants", what spectrum and what Watts/meter^2 are you recommending?
My growth chamber was used to start tomato seedlings but I briefly grew musa 'Truly Tiny' and musa 'Little Princes' tissue culture plugs in that and they did fine. I used ten 8.5 watt 2700 K LED bulbs and six 10 watt blue LED chips for a total of 145 input watts to cover a 4 ft.^2 area. That translates to 390 input watts/meter^2. I do not recommend it but I call it "more than adequate."
Tomato plants 26 days from planting seeds:
http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/BigBeef26days.jpg
Incidentally, those bulbs cost me $2.50 each back in 2015.
Richard
03-03-2017, 04:27 PM
I briefly grew musa 'Truly Tiny' and musa 'Little Princes' tissue culture plugs in that and they did fine.
We're not talking about propagating plugs, but rather sustained indoor growth of bananas through the fruiting stage.
Now, either you know or don't know what is prescribed for bananas. If you do, please provide what you believe is the ideal spectrum (in terms of black body temperature, or Gaussian with given means & half spectrum width, or a Poisson distribution, etc.) and the desired flux in terms of Watts/meter^2 (projected area at 1 meter from source).
aruzinsky
03-03-2017, 05:45 PM
We're not talking about propagating plugs, but rather sustained indoor growth of bananas through the fruiting stage.
Wrong. The topic of this thread was determined by the OP who did not ask for "sustained indoor growth of bananas through the fruiting stage." For your convenience, here is the original quote:
I'm about a month from taking my new banana tree in for the Ohio winter. I live in a home where there isn't too much all day light in the house and I'd like my tree to continue to grow.. I've got a room with very little light, but it always gets super warm during the winter, so it will be a nice room for the banana. I wanted to add a couple of grow lights to keep it going as well.
Can't seem to find any threads about this on the site, so I wanted to ask some recommendations. I know they can get expensive, into the hundreds or even thousands of dollars. I was hoping for something significantly more economical that will do the job for the banana. And just the banana.
I found this on Amazon as an example. Any idea if a couple of these around the tree would work?
https://amzn.com/B00GNWK2XO
Any other ideas for grow lights that banana trees thrive under during the winter?
eharriett
03-03-2017, 07:58 PM
Wrong. The topic of this thread was determined by the OP who did not ask for "sustained indoor growth of bananas through the fruiting stage." For your convenience, here is the original quote:
Yeah. Uhh....... As the guy who originally started it and GOT HIS ANSWER I've been following the way this thread has gone. I'm cool with the science, BTW.
However, I've got one plant I wanted to keep growing in the winter. My solution was but a MH 400w bulb, hang it over the plant, and have it on during the day. The plant has grown quite nicely. My only complaint is my electric bill has shot up by about $25/month since I started it. Happy with results but not the increased cost. However, I **did** get the results, however costly, that I wanted. :goteam:
aruzinsky
03-04-2017, 10:26 AM
Yeah. Uhh....... As the guy who originally started it and GOT HIS ANSWER I've been following the way this thread has gone. I'm cool with the science, BTW.
However, I've got one plant I wanted to keep growing in the winter. My solution was but a MH 400w bulb, hang it over the plant, and have it on during the day. The plant has grown quite nicely. My only complaint is my electric bill has shot up by about $25/month since I started it. Happy with results but not the increased cost. However, I **did** get the results, however costly, that I wanted. :goteam:
Good. Then you shouldn't mind slight topic digressions after achieving satisfactory answers to your questions.
In my experience, sun loving plants can grow better under artificial light at a lower light intensity than under natural light in an unshaded greenhouse. I suspect that is because plants under artificial light do not have to adapt to light fluctuations such as caused by clouds and the changing position of sun in the sky. Also, all else equal, plants grow better under diffuse light that casts no shadows such as provided in a reflective growth chamber. Also, some plants benefit from longer light periods, e.g., lights on 24/7, than found in nature. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_light_integral. (I don't know whether musa benefit from longer light periods.) That is not to say that the plants wouldn't grow faster in diffuse, unfluctuating light of the intensity of direct sunlight. My point is that artificial light of the intensity of direct sunlight is not needed to match or exceed growth under natural light.
CraigSS
03-29-2017, 08:24 AM
I have an indoor Arboretum. 14' long X 7' wide and 21' high.
I am using 6500K, T-5- four foot tubes (6) and I did not see any increase in Electric bill. Lights are on 3 hours in morning and 3 hours in the evening. God provides any additional lighting. I Bought the lights on 1000 bulbs at $20+ each. I did not want the higher electric bill and did not want the additional heat.
Banana plants are putting out new leaves every 7 - 10 days.
I just started to fertilize them.
Craig:03:
CraigSS
03-29-2017, 08:45 AM
You are dead wrong and you pontificate without presenting verifiable references which I consider unethical.
Technically, household LED bulbs are fluorescent but we don't call them "fluorescent" to avoid confusion with traditional fluorescent bulbs. Traditional fluorescent bulbs are coated with phosphors that convert ultraviolet light to longer wavelengths. Similarly, household LED bulbs contain blue LEDs that are coated with phosphors that convert part of the blue light to longer wavelengths. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor#White_LEDs
And, note that unlike you, I present verifiable references to back up my statements.
And, you can buy chips consisting of blue LEDs coated with special phosphors just for growing plants, e.g., see 100W 50W 30W 20W 10W 3W 380NM-840NM Full Spectrum High Power LED Chip Grow Light | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-50W-30W-20W-10W-3W-380NM-840NM-Full-Spectrum-High-Power-LED-Chip-Grow-Light-/321831784996?var=&hash=item76ec059f6f)
Here is the spectrum on the left (ignore the one on the right because it is wrong):
http://g01.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1BgTsFVXXXXXvXXXXq6xXFXXX6/201828168/HTB1BgTsFVXXXXXvXXXXq6xXFXXX6.jpg
Incidentally, the most efficient light sources that you can buy (as opposed to a laboratory curiosity) are blue LED chips which are about 52% efficient (watts/watt). In contrast, a traditional fluorescent bulb is typically 22% efficient. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp#Luminous_efficacy
and note:
"whereas typical fluorescent lamps convert about 22% of the power input to visible white light."
:03:I will admit that I am new to this Banana growing than most of you.
But I can tell you that LED lighting of any kind is not the same as fluorescent lighting. They are totally different. There are however fluorescent bulbs that are fitted into incandescent fixtures (CFL).
Incandescent lights have a filament and work in a vacuum environment.
Fluorescent lights have two electrodes (one on either end) the phosphor powder, coated along the inside of the glass and is in a positive argon filled tube along with a minute amount of mercury.
LED's or light-emitting diode, emits light from a piece of solid matter called a semi-conductor. It does not need a phosphor powder or any other component. They create very little heat, it takes quite a few to get to the 6500K range for adequate growth spectrum.
It is not the Phosphor that generates the light spectrum.
Craig
aruzinsky
03-29-2017, 09:53 AM
:03: it takes quite a few to get to the 6500K range for adequate growth spectrum.
It is not the Phosphor that generates the light spectrum.
Craig
I am only talking about LED bulbs for household lighting and not LEDs in general. Without exception, these LED bulbs contain only blue LEDs coated with phosphors. An obvious question is "Why not buy phosphors and coat blue LEDs yourself as part of a DIY project?" The answer is that the phosphors are expensive and sellers have large minimum orders. For example, see
https://secure40.securewebsession.com/2nc99ci87.site.aplus.net/products_conv.php
If I were a billionaire, I would coat LEDs for fun, but, sadly, I am not.
ZiGa:S
07-01-2017, 05:38 PM
If anyone is interested in quality real full spectrum LEDs, take a look at YujiLEDs VTC series.
They are UV based LEDs with 3 different phosphorus applied.
I had many difficulties growing aquarium plants under normal LED lights, but when I have fitted these and even though I have really low brightness the plants are growing excessively and very healthy and also there is no algae outbreaks!
The only problem of Yuji VTC LEDs is price.
I am using a mix of 2700K, 5000K and 5600K, and I need to further test each color temperature for its effect on plant/algae growth.
ZiGa:S
07-02-2017, 03:24 AM
Richard:
Lumens is a measure of human perception of brightness. In professional horticulture, source intensity is always measured in Watts.
I agree, that giving brightness only in lumens is stupid. Full spectrum (300-800nm) graph should be given with each light to be able to calculate any brightness standard.
Now to theory, there are MORE THAN ONE spectrum to lumen conversion standards, which makes brightness given with only lumens and no standard allready obsolete (not to talk about cheap lumen meters that calculate it based only on one peak value!). When we were converting at out faculty we used CIE 1978 standard, so probably this is used the most?!
IMAGE: CIE 1978 standard:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=61952&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=61952)
And for me even PAR is ridiculous to use as each individual plant has its own spectrum absorption and reflection characteristic. The only literature I was able to find to measure each plant's individual "PAR" is one really old book from times that they did not have electronic spectrometers.
On wiki Luminosity function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminosity_function) is written about converting. All one needs to do to convert from real spectrum to lumen is to integrate alongside spectrum graph from cca 400nm to 750nm using CIE 1978 curve and multiply with 683.002lm/W if using relative CIE 1978 graph.
To convert from spectrum to PAR, different curve is used (at stated above in one post), but I do not know exactly which units and maximum value is used for PAR.
IMAGE: PAR conversion:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=61953&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=61953&ppuser=25907)
Have a nice day,
Ziga
P.S. to admins
PNGs uploaded to gallery are uploaded as blank images :(
aruzinsky
07-02-2017, 11:18 AM
When we were converting at out faculty we used CIE 1978 standard, so probably this is used the most?!
No. From https://www.ecse.rpi.edu/~schubert/Light-Emitting-Diodes-dot-org/Sample-Chapter.pdf
"This function is referred to as the CIE 1931 V(λ) function. It is the current photometric standard in the United States."
The only literature I was able to find to measure each plant's individual "PAR" is one really old book from times that they did not have electronic spectrometers.
...
To convert from spectrum to PAR, different curve is used (at stated above in one post), but I do not know exactly which units and maximum value is used for PAR.
You are incorrectly calling yield flux, "PAR".
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetically_active_radiation
"There are two common measures of photosynthetically active radiation: photosynthetic photon flux (PPF) and yield photon flux (YPF). PPF values all photons from 400 to 700 nm equally, while YPF weights photons in the range from 360 to 760 nm based on plant's photosynthetic response.[6]"
IMAGE: PAR conversion:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=61953&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=61953&ppuser=25907)
This is some sort of average that some committee pulled out of their ass.
Here are photosynthetic action spectra for 33 different plant species:
http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/ActionSpectra001.png
http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/ActionSpectra002.png
http://www.general-cathexis.com/images/ActionSpectra003.png
Usages of such curves and PAR concepts are inaccurate because:
1. They ignore the Emerson Enhancement effect, see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerson_effect
2. Plants are often grown in reflective environments such as growth chambers. A plant within a perfectively reflective environment with absorb 100% of all wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation. Therefore an imperfect reflective environment will tend to flatten the photosynthetic response to various wavelengths by an unknown amount.
3. Plants adapt to lighting conditions over time after which they exhibit different photosynthetic action spectra.
cincinnana
07-14-2017, 07:11 PM
I use what I can afford.....to grow/keep bananas..
.https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5668/21003791713_766d3cbc3b_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/y12VvT)
CFL (https://flic.kr/p/y12VvT) by
Hostafarian (https://www.flickr.com/photos/hostafarian/),
on Flickr.
Now kush is another story...better R.O.I.
I will use 4 CFLS:ha:
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