View Full Version : your pH meter might be broken if ...
Richard
03-19-2008, 09:12 PM
Took my pH meter off the shelf today and noticed it was ready 4.2, not 7.0 as expected. Hmm. So I cleaned all the oxidation off the contacts down to shiny metal and stuck it in a box of lime for an hour. It's still reading 4.2, but in the garbage bin. I guess for $10, lasting 7 years wasn't too bad.
MediaHound
03-19-2008, 09:47 PM
Just recently put a new electrode on my pH controller on my reef :)
bencelest
03-19-2008, 10:06 PM
Talking about the pH meter. I got mine out because I have 3 citrus planted on the ground whose leaves are very yellow all the leaves. I thought it was nitrogen difficiency but when I sampled the soil, the soil were very acid 5.2, 5.4, 4.9.
Naturally I bought some prilled dolomite lime at garden store and add it into the soil. I'll check the pH and the leaves every 4 days or so if there is any improvement.
The tempt maybe a factor also since we just got over the winter. But I'll keep an eye on them.
chong
03-20-2008, 12:04 AM
Talking about the pH meter. I got mine out because I have 3 citrus planted on the ground whose leaves are very yellow all the leaves. I thought it was nitrogen difficiency but when I sampled the soil, the soil were very acid 5.2, 5.4, 4.9.
Naturally I bought some prilled dolomite lime at garden store and add it into the soil. I'll check the pH and the leaves every 4 days or so if there is any improvement.
The tempt maybe a factor also since we just got over the winter. But I'll keep an eye on them.
I always thought that yellowing of the leaves was caused by Iron and/or Nitrogen deficiency. My plants used to have that tendency. A regular regimen of "Ironite" usually cured the yellowing. If you're using a lot of wood chip mulch, it could be taking up a lot of the nitrogen from your soil, too.
Or, it might be caused by your water supply, too. Especially, if you have a water softener for your entire house supply system.
I would have your pH meter checked for accuracy before adding Lime to your soil. Yellowing of the leaves will be aggravated if you add more lime to neutralize the acidity. More nurserymen will recommend making your soil more acid when you have yellowing of the leaves of your tree. The will recommend using "Miracid" to get your leaves to turn green. Since your pH readings are showing an over acidity in your soil, but then your leaves are yellowing, this leads me to believe that your pH meter may need to be recalibrated, because the readings contradict the symptoms of your plant. (If your meter can be recalibrated.) One thing you could do is check the your tap water with your meter and see if your meter will read it as in the neutral range.
chong
03-20-2008, 12:48 AM
Benny,
I just thought you might want to read this article that talks about citrus leaves yellowing. I sure hope that your tree does not have foot rot, the third cause of yellowing leaves in citrus.
Summer Ailments of Citrus Trees (http://ag.arizona.edu/gardening/news/azdailystar/citrus_problems_summer.htm)
bencelest
03-20-2008, 01:11 AM
Chong : Everything that you said is true- the symptoms and effect to the plants.
But I trust my meter. I have PHH-715 Mini-pH Meter.
I bought that years ago.And it is accurate up to .02 of a point. I have a buffer solution pH4.00 and 7.00 and I calibrate the meter before I use it.
It is true that the symptoms you describe yellowing of leaves is due to iron or nitrogen difficiiency provided that the pH is at the norm but things will turn helter skelter if your pH is too low or too high because there are some nutrients not available to plants in either way. Your plants will be just like a baby with her mouth close so no matter how much you feed her she will still be hungry because nothing gets into her tummy.
Here's some excerpts from 'Understanding pH Management":
5. Soil pH affects the amount of nutrients that are
6. soluble in soil water and, therefore, the amount of
7. nutrient available to plants. Some nutrients are more
8. available under acid conditions while others are
9. more available under alkaline conditions. However,
10. most mineral nutrients are readily available to plants
11. when soil pH is near neutral.
12.
13. The development of strongly acidic soils (pH less
14. than 5.5) can result in poor plant growth as a result
15. of one or more of the following factors: low pH,
16. aluminium toxicity, manganese toxicity, calcium
17. deficiency, magnesium deficiency, and low levels
18. of essential plant nutrients such as phosphorus
19. and molybdenum.
Nitrogen (N)
uptake can be indirectly affected by medium pH
because low pH decreases nitrification (conversion of
ammoniacal nitrogen to nitrate nitrogen) or the
conversion of urea to ammoniacal nitrogen.
Some species will
perform better when grown at a low pH, some will
perform better when grown at a high pH, and for some,
it will not matter. However, for each of these groups,
the acceptable range where they will grow and perform
the best will be relatively narrow and will be similar
that of other plant species. If you had to choose a pH
range to grow, then the recommended range
would 5.8 to 6.2,
So whatever the case maybe, I will have to correct my soil pH to near neutral before I do anything.
And normally, when I have a reading near normal pH my plants return to normal.
You ought to see my citrus how nice and green looking they are and what I normally do is watch my soil pH. I can not overemphasize this.
Many people have the wrong notion that if your plants are yellowing, add ironite or fertilize the plant high on nitrogen. I totally disagree.
It should be : correct your soil pH first before you do anything.
chong
03-20-2008, 02:20 AM
Okay, Benny - that's great. Unfortunately, your quoted excerpt does not show up on the actual post, but I was able to read it below the reply box while I was typing my reply and was verifying what you wrote. The first paragraph had some weird numbering system(from 5 to 19) at the beginning of each line, and they seemed unrelated to the paragraph. Anyway, I was able to read it. It appears that your meter has the feature to be calibrated. Does your meter require that you mix equal parts of water and soil in a bucket, or stick it directly into the soil?
I don't think it's wrong to assume that adding Iron and/or Nitrogen as a cure when your citrus leaves are yellowing because that's what most references will advocate. And in my experience, that appears to be so. Yes, adjustment of pH to an optimum level is important to the health of the plant. But from what I read, low pH affects the growth of the plant, but seldom is the result manifested by the yellowing of the leaves. Low soil pH often results in a plant that looks healthy and green but slow to grow and produce little fruit, if at all. I've haven't heard it resulting in yellowing of the leaves.
Now that you've gotten me to look at pH levels. It just occurred to me that my Philippine Magnolias are very slow growing and seldom bloom. Hmmmm, I have to check their soil pH. My Michelias (see avatar) are doing great, but one of the bigger plants' leaves were yellowing last month. I applied some Miracid and it is now on the green side. It looked like pale sunflower yellow before.
Out of curiosity, what is the pH of your tap water? In a lot of places in CA that I've stayed in, the water is so soft that it was difficult to get rid of soap suds/film when washing or taking a shower.
bencelest
03-20-2008, 09:54 AM
Sorry. When I copy and paste those excerpt's, I can't get rid of the numbers and it was about 1 AM so I just let it.
You are so right with everything you say. Before I have that meter, I follow the authors'recommendations and usually they are the same with what you said and my plants are lush and green also.
But since millet sent me that pamphlet "Understanding PH Management" I changed my ways of doing things. I always now check the soil pH before I correct other things.
So I am just like a mechanic or electrician, I have the meters to use so why not use it? Like refinement of solving your problem.
I don't want to go blind with what I am doing. I want to see like an extra eye.
You are an engineer so you understand.
bencelest
03-20-2008, 10:09 AM
The meter will tell you to take 3 samples at about 6 inches deep at 3 different places in your pot or garden. Put them in a clean glass and add either distilled water or the water purified by osmosis. Stir the soil until it is at pancake consistency.Wait one hour before you take a reading.
As for me I just wait 5 minutes and I take a reading. I found out that there is only a difference of less than .5 in readings.
My tap water here is 7.6 I believe.
The optimum pH for citrus is 6.5 BTW.
PS
From my experience the tendency of my plant's soil pH either in pots and on the ground is very low pH now that I think about it. There are only a few times that some pots have high pH. Either way, the plant will tell you its dissatisfaction.
Once I corrected the problem they became happy and they will show it to you too.
As a precaution remember it may take many months before it shows .
chong
03-20-2008, 02:19 PM
Wow! 7.6 pH water supply. Have you actually tested it, just for accuracy sake? That could be contributing your yellowing leaves. Although, I've read in certain areas, that citrus can tolerate pH as high as 7.0, so I'm not sure that that's a factor here. But coupled with exposure to cold temperatures and winds, it would at least make it suspect. From what I've read, the ideal range is pH of 5.0 to 7.0, with the optimum at 6.0 to 6.5, as you stated.
I mentioned my Philippine Magnolias do not grow very well,even compared to Michelia. Your protocol of testing the soil pH led me to think about checking their pH requirements because the Magnolias and Michelias belong to the same family (In fact, the International Magnolia Society recently renamed the Michelia as Magnolia in spite of the distinct growth and blooming characteristics.) I was puzzled why, despite the same treatment, in terms of temperature, lighting, fertilizing, and watering, the Michelias are more vigorous growing and more productive, but the Magnolias are slow and barely bloom. They both came from the same region in China.
I had misplaced my pH meter from a long time ago and now in a hunt for a good pH meter. Most of the garden shops here only carry an inexpensive one made by LusterLeaf "Rapitest". Do any of y'all have one of these, and are they reasonably good? Thanks for any feedback.
bencelest
03-20-2008, 02:43 PM
My first pH meter is the cheapo kind that's worth $12 I bought at a nursery store. Never again will I buy another one like that. They are very inaccurate. It appears to have a mind of its own. When you measure your soil pH and then measure it again there are sometimes a difference of 3 to 5 times difference. And to think that the difference how acid or alkaline a soil is that from a reading of let's say from 7.1 to 8.1 that is a difference of 1.0 the soil is 100 times more acidic or more alkaline.
So what I did to mine was throw it as far away as I can to my next door neighbor.
If you are serious growing things in your yard invest on something really accurate meter. But it is not cheap. Mine cost $89.00 plus the buffer solution at $5 each for calibration.
I am very happy with mine. It's 4 years old now.
Here's the address:
OMEGA Engineering Inc
One Omega Dr
Box 4047
Stamford CT 06907
Cust. Service: 1-800-622-2378
203-359-1660; 203-359-7694
FAX: 203-359-7770PH Tester
Operation of the PHH-715 Mini-pH Meter
1. Flip power (toggle switch) on. If there is no display plug in a 9-12V DC + tip adapter to charge battery.
2. Units maybe run on battery or 9-12 VDC + tip adapter.
3. Connect a pH probe to the BNC connector and place probe in pH7 buffer to check calibration. If needed loosen the lock nut on the calibration pot and slowly turn the slotted shaft with a small screwdriver until the reading is correct. Check in pH4 buffer for pH4 +/- 0.02. If needed insert an alignment tool or small screwdriver into the hole on the bottom to adjust the slope to pH4.
4. If unit will not get closer than .02 pH call to get technical assistance, about internal adjustments or an authorization number for sending unit back for repair or calibration.
5. The probe can be hooked up to RG-58 or RG 62 coax cable up to 100 ft long.
6. If the battery will no longer take or hold a charge, open the unit and replace the battery. Bttery must be a Nicad or Metal Hydride rechargeable. Do not use an alkaline battery.
I did not buy the battery hook up. I just plug mine to a 110volt outlet. Less problem.
bencelest
03-20-2008, 02:49 PM
But if I have to buy a new one right now I'd probably buy one of these because it monitors nutrients you are giving them and monitors pH continosly
HANNA GroCheck Combo Meter - pH & TDS Meter
This is one of our favorite meters. It allows you to measure both pH and TDS (EC) at the same time, while conveniently hanging on the wall above your nutrient. The two professional quality probes are continually submerged in solution so that they have a real-time readout, without preparation or having to wait.
Although the Grocheck Combo Meter is a bit more expensive than other meters, the replaceable electrode on the probe allows for meter maintenance instead of meter replacement. Eventually it will pay for itself. Made by Hanna Instruments.
HI 981404N is ideal for agricultural, horticultural and hydroponics applications where pH and TDS levels need to be continuously monitored for optimal plantgrowth. HI 981404N continuously monitors and displays the pH and TDS values of a solution on an easy to read set of dual LCD's.
The HI 1286 gel filled pH electrode is replaceable and the BNC connector is protected behind a waterproof sheath. The unique design of the electrode guarantees greater clogging resistance in fertilizer solutions with high concentrations of phosphate, nitrate, etc.
TDS measurements are performed using the 4-4-2 conversion factor of 0.7 so you do not need to convert the readings. Equipped with a grounding bar to ensure more accurate pH measurements and longer electrode life. The HI 981404N is compact and easy to install and use. This makes it ideal for all continuous monitoring applications.
HI 981404N is supplied complete with HI 1286 pH electrode, HI 7634 TDS probe, HI 1283 grounding bar, pH and TDS calibration solutions (20 mL each), screwdriver, 12 Vdc adapter and instructions.
• Range 0.0 to14.0 pH; 0 to 1990 mg/L (ppm)
• Resolution 0.1 pH; 10 mg/L (ppm)
• Accuracy (@20°C/68°F) ±0.2 pH; ±2% F.S.
• Calibration Manual at 1 or 2 points (pH); manual at 1 point (TDS)
• Setpoint pH, adjustable from 3.0 to 7.0 pH; TDS, adjustable from 500 to 1600 mg/L (ppm) Alarm 2 LED's (1 each for pH and TDS)
• Temp. Compensation Automatic from 5 to 50°C (41 to 122°F) (TDS only)
• TDS Conversion Factor 0.7 ppm = 1 µS/cm
• Probe HI 1286 interchangeable pH electrode, HI 7634 TDS probe (fixed), HI 1283 grounding bar with 1 m (3.3') cable (included)
• Battery Type / Life 12VDC adapter (included)
• Dimensions 165 x 110 x 35 mm (6.5 x 4.3 x 1.3")
• Weight 300 g (10.6 oz.)
Product ID: HI981404N Category: pH and Nutrient- pH and Nutrient Monitoring and Control
Price: $169.95
Sale Price: $117.95
Savings: $52.00
Richard
03-20-2008, 02:51 PM
I bought an inexpensive one 7 years ago and had good service through last fall. It's a plastic meter with a small diameter metal rod to insert in the soil. It is a magnometer variety, so no batteries are required. They currently sell for $10-$15 at nurseries. I have tested mine for accuracy against other measurement systems and found it was accurate to the printed lines, about 0.1 pH. As Benny points out, you need to check several locations around the plant and discard any anomalous readings from contact with a rock, "hot" piece of bark, etc.
Here's a picture of one brand, the probe is twice as long as pictured, about 10 to 12 inches.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=8784 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8784)
sandy0225
03-20-2008, 06:00 PM
The hanna instruments one is a good one, but be sure and get storage solution for it. Mine dried out and I had to put a new tip on it. Bummer!
chong
03-20-2008, 06:52 PM
Thank you Benny, Richard, and Sandy. That's quite a wide variation in quality and price.
I've checked the Omega 715 and the current price is $92 w/ batteries, and A/C power adapter, and 1 more item that I forget just now. It appears that this is not recommended for water. Otherwise, it is very ideal. I just need to be able to check our water supply every now and then.
The nursery variety is anywhere from $9 to $16, but with shipping it would go for less than $25. The $9 one is available in a local nursery. Richard, is this "good enough for government work"?
Sandy, there are tons of Hanna pH testers. Which model do you have experience in?
Thanks again for your feedback.
chong
03-20-2008, 06:57 PM
Oops! Sorry Sandy, it appear that I was responding at the same time that Benny was. So, is the Hanna Model HI 981404N the one you are referring to?
Thank you.
Richard
03-20-2008, 08:39 PM
... The $9 one is available in a local nursery. Richard, is this "good enough for government work"?
Yes, works great for testing soil up to 10" deep around a plant, or the root zone of a lawn, etc. Not recommended for aqua culture.
chong
03-21-2008, 12:10 AM
Yes, works great for testing soil up to 10" deep around a plant, or the root zone of a lawn, etc. Not recommended for aqua culture.
Thanks, Richard,
I think that for a $9 investment for the time being, I can use that for mostly potted plants anyway, until later on in the summer when I prepare the beds for my bananas that have been in captivity until now. I just wanted to get a feel from you whether it can give reasonable readings, with strict adherence to manufacturer's directions. I don't mind if it's off by 20%.
Perhaps the Omega meter would be the most practical, though I have reservations because I might need something for hydroponics application, which the Hanna meter may be a better choice.
I found a source on the net for the Hanna for $112! But for right now, it may be a bit of an overkill.
bencelest
03-21-2008, 12:18 AM
Thank you Benny, Richard, and Sandy. That's quite a wide variation in quality and price.
I've checked the Omega 715 and the current price is $92 w/ batteries, and A/C power adapter, and 1 more item that I forget just now. It appears that this is not recommended for water. Otherwise, it is very ideal. I just need to be able to check our water supply every now and then.
T
Thanks again for your feedback.
Chong:
I don't understand when you said that the meter is not recommended for water.
I use the meter all the time to check the pH of my tap water, water/ sulfuric acid solutions to water my plants with.
Here's what I do to water my plants: I put the recommended fertilizer on an empty whiskey barrel then I filled the barrel with water. I mixed them with a paddle. After calibrating my meter I check for pH which is normally on the alkaline side. Then I add sulfuric acid a little at a time until the water reads 6.50 the optimum pH recommended for citrus.
I have a self-priming pump connected to a regular water hose to water my citrus.
Easy.
I may have to do a little bit different with my bananas now that I have them.
All you have to do is immersed the tip of your probe in water being tested or you can immersed the whole probe and cable if you want to. It's all waterproof.
To test the water supply: all you need is a glass. Get a sample from your water supply and immersed your probe there. No problem.
Richard
03-21-2008, 12:32 AM
I'll bet if you travel over to Jarred's other site for aquariums, you'll find a thriving conversation on inexpensive pH meters for that application.
chong
03-21-2008, 01:07 AM
Chong:
I don't understand when you said that the meter is not recommended for water.
I use the meter all the time to check the pH of my tap water, water/ sulfuric acid solutions to water my plants with.
Here's what I do to water my plants: I put the recommended fertilizer on an empty whiskey barrel then I filled the barrel with water. I mixed them with a paddle. After calibrating my meter I check for pH which is normally on the alkaline side. Then I add sulfuric acid a little at a time until the water reads 6.50 the optimum pH recommended for citrus.
I have a self-priming pump connected to a regular water hose to water my citrus.
Easy.
I may have to do a little bit different with my bananas now that I have them.
All you have to do is immersed the tip of your probe in water being tested or you can immersed the whole probe and cable if you want to. It's all waterproof.
To test the water supply: all you need is a glass. Get a sample from your water supply and immersed your probe there. No problem.
Benny, I read it when I was checking out the specs of the PHH-715 on the net. I was on my lunch break from work when I found it. If I bookmarked it, I can find it easily. But right now, I can't even find the site that had the instruction manual for it. All I remember reading was tht you cannot use it in water. They do not even recommend cleaning the probe except with a clean cotton ball. But I may have it mixed up with another model, too.
Trying to look for and cram all that information in a half hour can be a challenge. Obviously, if your manual says that you can use it in water, then you can use it in water. And that's very encouraging to me, if that were so.
Thanks again for your feedback.
bencelest
03-21-2008, 09:20 AM
Probably so because there are some models that are installed and fixed on the wall and used in lab. So it is not feasable to use in water or perhaps the model itself is not waterproof so you can not use it in water. Mine is not waterproof so I am careful when I use it.But I just lay my meter on a bench get my sample and test the soil there. Simple. And if I have many plants to test, I bring me a portable chord plug my meter there and test the soil right on the spot. But I bring me a pitcher of filtered water because you need it for every test.
The one I use is the Advanced Filtration process Reverse osmosis system you buy from Costco. Mfr: Watts premier. The pH of water is 7.0 and the water tastes so good.
Chong:
You misunderstood me completely. Remember I said to bring a pitcher of filtered water. In this case the RO water. And I said to get soil 6 inches deep in 3 different locations.
What I do is put this soil in a cup (I use a measuring cup) filled this with the sampled soil, pour the filtered RO water to it, mix the mixture until it reaches to pancake consistency, put the probe there and measure. I don't even wait for 5 minutes. The difference is not worth it. I just wait till the reading stops for perhaps 20 seconds. So how much RO water do you use per test? 1/2 a cup?
To water your plant is a different matter.
reread again how I do it by using the whiskey barrel, sulfuric acid and fertilizer and how to adjust the pH of the water. That's where you use the tap water.
bencelest
03-21-2008, 09:54 AM
Chong:
The meter that Richard is talking about is good for if you don't have any other ones to use. I even use sometimes the paper kinds that changed color when you test water on swimming pools. All is good. But I am willing to bet that in less than a year you would want something better and more accurate.
Oh, I bought perhaps 3 of those cheap ones before I discover my meter I am using now. But I was not satisfied with the results. I got so frustrated that like I told you, I got rid of them.
I am now very satisfied and at peace with myself. And I have a meter that is ready at anytime.
So to each its own. It's yourself you will be content with.
I don't think it's an overkill if you buy that Hanna meter.
If from experience to rely on,I use to buy the Sears tools, the tools that made from China that are 10 times cheaper, those tools are now just lying somewhere in my garage or in closet.
In my trade, I buy the best and most reliable tools now. such as Rigid or DeWalt.
One can argue that they both work but like I said if accuracy and reliability is what you want buy the best.
You will get what you paid for.
bencelest
03-21-2008, 10:53 AM
I think I already got my money's worth for my meter.
In the past, I have a guava that I bought for $79 at menlo Growers, a Lychee at the same place for again $79 and a Chandler pommelo for $45 that I was able to diagnosed the problem because of my meter not counting the sentimental value of your plants and the maintenance and your happiness when you see them perked up after you cure their maladies.
chong
03-21-2008, 12:42 PM
Probably so because there are some models that are installed and fixed on the wall and used in lab. So it is not feasable to use in water or perhaps the model itself is not waterproof so you can not use it in water. Mine is not waterproof so I am careful when I use it.But I just lay my meter on a bench get my sample and test the soil there. Simple. And if I have many plants to test, I bring me a portable chord plug my meter there and test the soil right on the spot. But I bring me a pitcher of filtered water because you need it for every test.
The one I use is the Advanced Filtration process Reverse osmosis system you buy from Costco. Mfr: Watts premier. The pH of water is 7.0 and the water tastes so good.
I have the same R-O water filter in my house, but it's only for drinking and cooking. But do you actually use that for watering your plants? You must have a big tank to store it in because the GPM output of these units is very low. They're only 1/10th of what I specify for water supply to humidifiers in computer data centers. And even those do not flow very much. Unless you have 100psi pressure at your supply. And that's against the Code.
Watts recommends replacing the filters once a year, and they send me a reminder yearly. I don't always order right away because the filters lasts us over 18 months on the average.
You must really, really love your plants if you're using R-O water to water them. So that's where you get the pH 7.0. I was surprised when you said that because I was asking you about your tap water.
Richard
03-21-2008, 01:38 PM
I test my tap water every year or so with my neighbor's electrolytic meter. It's consistantly in the 7.1 to 7.3 range. For indoor plants, I put 1 drop of Growmore Seaweed Extract (http://www.growmore.com/productpages/seaweed.html) in a half-gallon pitcher of water and presto(!), the pH is now 6.7 to 6.8. My outdoor irrigation system has a 1.5 gallon inline fertigator (http://www.ezfloinjection.com/1-2.asp) and I add a gallon of seaweed extract to it to control the pH. You can buy seaweed extract in cases of 1 gallon bottles quite cheaply.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=8815
bencelest
03-21-2008, 05:01 PM
Chong:
You misunderstood me completely. Remember I said to bring a pitcher of filtered water. In this case the RO water. And I said to get soil 6 inches deep in 3 different locations.
What I do is put this soil in a cup (I use a measuring cup) filled this with the sampled soil, pour the filtered RO water to it, mix the mixture until it reaches to pancake consistency, put the probe there and measure. I don't even wait for 5 minutes. The difference is not worth it. I just wait till the reading stops for perhaps 20 seconds. So how much RO water do you use per test? 1/2 a cup?
To water your plant is a different matter.
reread again how I do it by using the whiskey barrel, sulfuric acid and fertilizer and how to adjust the pH of the water. That's where you use the tap water.
bencelest
03-21-2008, 05:13 PM
I test my tap water every year or so with my neighbor's electrolytic meter. It's consistantly in the 7.1 to 7.3 range. For indoor plants, I put 1 drop of Growmore Seaweed Extract (http://www.growmore.com/productpages/seaweed.html) in a half-gallon pitcher of water and presto(!), the pH is now 6.7 to 6.8. My outdoor irrigation system has a 1.5 gallon inline fertigator (http://www.ezfloinjection.com/1-2.asp) and I add a gallon of seaweed extract to it to control the pH. You can buy seaweed extract in cases of 1 gallon bottles quite cheaply.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=8815
Richard:
That looks promising. I don't know that. What is a Fertigator and please tell us more about it. Where can you buy that?
That is much much easier than my own (invented)method.
chong
03-21-2008, 07:13 PM
Chong:
You misunderstood me completely. Remember I said to bring a pitcher of filtered water. In this case the RO water. And I said to get soil 6 inches deep in 3 different locations.
What I do is put this soil in a cup (I use a measuring cup) filled this with the sampled soil, pour the filtered RO water to it, mix the mixture until it reaches to pancake consistency, put the probe there and measure. I don't even wait for 5 minutes. The difference is not worth it. I just wait till the reading stops for perhaps 20 seconds. So how much RO water do you use per test? 1/2 a cup?
To water your plant is a different matter.
reread again how I do it by using the whiskey barrel, sulfuric acid and fertilizer and how to adjust the pH of the water. That's where you use the tap water.
Okay. But remember, I was asking you what the pH of your tap water was, and you replied that it was 7.6, it gave me the impression that it was after the R-O filter because they're so close, and I didn't know that you had a filtration system. Filtered water could just be bottled water. Usually, the R-O filter would remove 99.7%(at least that's what most of these companies claim) of the chlorine in the water, which in turn make it more basic and acidic. Although, on the other hand, the R-O filter also removes a lot of minerals and heavy metals, which would bring the pH down as well. Mine is so old that I don't believe it has a re-mineralization stage. Maybe that's why your R-O water pH is 7.0 because it has one.
I brought up the issue of the difficulty in removal of soap suds when washing or bathing in certain areas in southern CA, because I thought that the water in these areas are so soft you could actually smell the Chlorine. The source of water in these areas is usually from open bodies of water where part of the sewer (after treatment) is recycled and becomes mixed with drinking water eventually. If your district water is from a well, the pH level is usually higher already, so Chlorination will lower the pH some. In our hotels in Ogden, UT and Boise, ID, they had hard water, and the reverse was true. It was a little difficult to get the suds going.
Having said that, considering that you're treating your irrigation water to adjust the pH, I cannot understand why your soil would be so acidic. I presume that since you've had your pH tester for a long time that you periodically check the pH of your soil. What was it before? And if this were because of over fertilizing, then the symptoms would just be the reverse of what you have. You would see blackening of the leaves.
By the way, what is the pH in the other areas besides the one where you have a problem? Or, are they similar? If they are, then I am more convinced that the primary problem is not pH because just as pH 7.0 is the upper limit of the range that citrus will thrive, pH 5.0 is the lower limit that I've read.
Richard
03-21-2008, 08:18 PM
... just as pH 7.0 is the upper limit of the range that citrus will thrive, pH 5.0 is the lower limit that I've read.
You'll see leaf burn (brown from the edge in) and drop with a pH of 5 and under on citrus, with mandarins (tangerines) being more sensitive.
I know the yellowing is frustrating and even with the right remedy will be slow to go. I hate it when my plants are suffering.
If the leaf panels started yellowing but the leaf veins were still green for awhile, this is almost always chlorosis caused by too much watering: roots so soggy that mineral uptake is impeded.
If leafs are going yellow veins and all, it could be slight alkalinity, too little sunlight, or just plain shock. Mandarins -- including your clemenules are fussy plants like gardenias. Many a customer has come into the nursery with the complaint that they moved their potted tangerine 10 feet on their patio without much change in light but now it is turning yellow. The first time I sprayed my citrus trees with a summer foliar spray the Gold Nugget Mandarin promptly dropped at 3/4 of its leafs -- and then two weeks later put out all new leafs. I hope you have such a happy ending!
bencelest
03-22-2008, 01:57 AM
When I applied wood ash a couple of days ago after discovering the abnormal low pH that I have with my Yosemite gold, and I added prilled dolomite lime on the soil yesterday,I noticed a slight green coloration of the lower leaves on the north part of the plant this morning. I mean slight but noticeable. I hope it continuous.
I also have suspicion that I maybe off on my diagnosis because the weather changed a couple of days ago. It is getting warmer. I think I will have a happy ending because the weather is changing and I am adjusting the pH of my soil.
I am going to take the reading again in a couple of days to check.
Chong:
I used to take readings on all of my pots before ,whether my citrus had green leaves or had chlorosis. I stopped doing the test on all the plants that have normal green leaves because the readings were consistently within the limits of 6.2 to 7.2. After a while, you know what to expect.
I have so many plants to take care of it is not practical to take readings as you suggested.
Also I did not say I use filtered water, I said as the manual said to use distilled water or the RO filtered water.
I also don't use my meter all the time. I only use it when I see some problems like right now.
You are right in saying that the symptoms of having readings of low pH should be dark green leaves and I might add no growth and the symptoms that is showing now is not consistent with the norm it is just the opposite of one might expect so you are doubting the accuracy of my meter I am using or the tap water I am using. That's all valid points. But the way it is is that I plan to correct the low pH of my soil first before I correct the problem.The cause maybe like you said root damage or the bark that I used. I eliminated those 2 because I did nothing to the plant.
I don't understand it either why some of my plants have too much acid soil and some don't. I am using the same fertilizer and water to all of them. And to tell you the truth, I neglect my plants more than I take care of them specially last winter we have had. I was more worried how would they survive the cold nights than worry about their chlorosis. But
I think it will solve itself out come Spring time. When the weather warms up.
Thanks for your input. And also to you Richard.
bencelest
03-22-2008, 10:46 AM
Follow up:
I looked at my Yosemite gold this morning andI liked what I saw. The greens are spreading now on top leaves. I think it is going to be alright.
Chong:
You made me break my pHmeter again and test my tap water. Remember I said " I think" when I told you my pH reading of my tap water. I got that answer from my memory maybe last year or beyond. So this morning I actually read my tap water:
pH 6.91
Unfortunately the pH of the soil on my Yosemite gold is 5.15. pretty low. Huh!
But I am not going to hurry up and add more ashes and lime.
I will let the lime settled in the soil for a week or so before I add another 2 handfuls.
But like I said there are now slightly green leaves spreading out from bottom to top now so it is getting better.
I will wait till the weather really warms up before I do more things.
bencelest
03-22-2008, 12:41 PM
Chong:
You made me think deeper than what I originally used to do.
Usually I neglect my citrus at this time of the year and I just don't watch them. now I am taking pH readings and watched the leaves of my citrus.
Here's my conclusion:
1. I think the temperature plays a large part with the yellowing of the leaves.
2. I Observed that the calamondin Joe gave me which is over 12 feet now has the same symtoms. Chlorotic leaves throughout the canopy. The only difference is that the calamondin have green midribs and the Yosemite Gold are yellower than the rest of the leaves.
I observed also that the seedless Kishu that Menlo Growers gave me not too long ago has the same symtoms as Joe's calamondin except all the leaves are slightly yellow throughout and not just the canopy and the midrib's are green.
It came from the North of Salinas- Gilroy.
All these plants were on their own last winter and no protection whatsoever.
But in the near future I will be monitoring their pH value as time permits.
chong
03-24-2008, 02:24 PM
I test my tap water every year or so with my neighbor's electrolytic meter. It's consistantly in the 7.1 to 7.3 range. For indoor plants, I put 1 drop of Growmore Seaweed Extract (http://www.growmore.com/productpages/seaweed.html) in a half-gallon pitcher of water and presto(!), the pH is now 6.7 to 6.8. My outdoor irrigation system has a 1.5 gallon inline fertigator (http://www.ezfloinjection.com/1-2.asp) and I add a gallon of seaweed extract to it to control the pH. You can buy seaweed extract in cases of 1 gallon bottles quite cheaply.
. . . . . . . . . . .
Richard,
Thank you for the tips. I was looking at the soluble seaweed products at the garden center, but could not find any that was acidic. Their pH was 8-9, and one was even at pH 10. Our water supply is at ph 7.0, and I would like to get my potting media to pH 6.25 - 6.5, if it were possible. Right now, the media is reading 7.2-7.3. Since your procedure lowered the water pH by 0.3 to 0.7, it would be ideal. I Googled the Growmore website but they did not give the pH info. Do you have any?
(P.S. I have 2 of those EZ-Flo fetigators. Great stuff!))
Richard
03-24-2008, 04:27 PM
... I was looking at the soluble seaweed products at the garden center, but could not find any that was acidic. Their pH was 8-9, and one was even at pH 10 ...
Hmm ... that's no good, it would appear those manufacturers are not doing much to remove sea salts.
Anyway, I replaced the broken pH meter that started this thread! I found another cheapo for $11. The scale is only calibrated at 0.5 intervals, and it is nonlinear in the 5 to 8 range. Works for me.
Here's a photo using the new meter in a previously unopened bottle of Growmore seaweed extract. I believe its close to 6.7.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=8871
bencelest
03-24-2008, 06:20 PM
Richard :
Your pH meter looks more expensive than $11. Where did you get it from?
bencelest
03-24-2008, 06:24 PM
Richard :
Your pH meter looks more expensive than $11. Where did you get it from?
Also regarding the Growmore Seaweed Extract ,I could not find any store listed at their website so I emailed them for the nearest store in my hometown.
chong
03-24-2008, 06:26 PM
Wow! Richard,
I got the same one last week, for $20.65 (incl. 8.9% ST). What do they mean that you shouldn't dunk it in water? It says so in their instruction sheet, which is so small that I need a magnifying glass. (USE METER ONLY IN SOIL. DO NOT PLACE THE PROBE INTO WATER.)
Where did you get yours from?
You also mentioned that the extract is available in case lots? Do you have a name for a distributor?
Thank you.
Richard
03-24-2008, 07:11 PM
I don't know. I stuck mine in liquid anyway. Of course I clean it afterwards, and the tip I clean with mineral spirits (not paint thinner).
I bought mine at a local independent nursery. I did see them at Armstrong Garden Centers for $32 (ouch!).
The cases of 1 gallon jugs of Growmore Kelp Extract: I buy them from the same local nursery -- who also stocks the gallon bottles.
bencelest
03-26-2008, 01:55 PM
Update on my Yosemite Gold
color of leaves on 3 19 08
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=8910&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8910)
same plant 3 26 08
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=8909&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8909)
Richard
03-26-2008, 02:51 PM
Benny, that's a definite improvement.
bencelest
03-26-2008, 04:07 PM
Thanks! But you helped me too because you once said wood ash can be used to raise the pH.
bencelest
03-27-2008, 12:50 PM
The pH is coming up slowly. 0.13to be exact. From 5.25 to 5.38
So, this morning, I leached the soil with water hose. We'll see what will I get.
Ah, this early morning 3/28/08 , still dark, I can see the light green leaves becoming greener.
bencelest
03-28-2008, 09:23 AM
I am more convinced that pH has got more to do with the greening of the leaves with the tempt almost the same as of yesterday.
Here is the picture of the Yosemite Gold this morning 3/28/08 after leaching the soil yesterday.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=8931&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8931)
And here's the picture of the same plant as of 3/ 19 /08
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=8910&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8910)
bencelest
03-28-2008, 11:26 AM
OK, I took the pH reading this morning and here it is:
pH 6.28 which is getting close to the recommended optimum.
chong
04-08-2008, 04:27 PM
Chong:
I don't understand when you said that the meter is not recommended for water.
I use the meter all the time to check the pH of my tap water, water/ sulfuric acid solutions to water my plants with.
Here's what I do to water my plants: I put the recommended fertilizer on an empty whiskey barrel then I filled the barrel with water. I mixed them with a paddle. After calibrating my meter I check for pH which is normally on the alkaline side. Then I add sulfuric acid a little at a time until the water reads 6.50 the optimum pH recommended for citrus.
I have a self-priming pump connected to a regular water hose to water my citrus.
Easy.
I may have to do a little bit different with my bananas now that I have them.
All you have to do is immersed the tip of your probe in water being tested or you can immersed the whole probe and cable if you want to. It's all waterproof.
To test the water supply: all you need is a glass. Get a sample from your water supply and immersed your probe there. No problem.
Benny,
Where do you buy your Sulfuric Acid? The only thing I could get from Home Depot is 15% Citric Acid for aquariums.
bencelest
04-08-2008, 05:23 PM
Chong:
I am leaving for PI on April 10. Getting ready. I will look for senorita corm in Malolos or San Marcos.
You get the sulfuric acid from any car store the replacement liquid for your car battery. Very cheap.
Always make sure you pour by small amount to the water and not vice versa.
Sulfuric acid is also a nutrient for plants.
chong
04-08-2008, 06:26 PM
Chong:
I am leaving for PI on April 10. Getting ready. I will look for senorita corm in Malolos or San Marcos.
You get the sulfuric acid from any car store the replacement liquid for your car battery. Very cheap.
Always make sure you pour by small amount to the water and not vice versa.
Sulfuric acid is also a nutrient for plants.
Thanks Benny, I never thought of that, battery electrolyte . . . . . Wow!
Your timing for going home is perfect. Are you attending the Rare Fruit Growers convention in Pampanga on April 13, 2008? You should go. It's free, unless you want to spend the night before at a hotel. The host has a rare fruit farm and he is serving among other things, breadfruit. Hmmmm. Haven't had that in a long time. I can almost taste it with Kalamansi juice.
The convention is in Angeles City near Clark Field. It is only a few minutes from Malolos. I wish I could go.
Will you be accessing your emails while you are there? I have some cousins that are hunting for sources Señorita and Bungulan corms in San Marcos and Los Baños. They haven't found one yet, though. If you can maintain contact with me while you're there, and by luck my cousins may have found a source, I'll let you know. I'll also email you a USDA circular regarding bringing plant materials with your luggage, if you do not have it. You can just cite the number of the bulletin, or better yet, bring it with you to show them at the airport when you get there. Sometimes, you get a rookie, and they challenge you because they don't know the rules themselves.
bencelest
04-08-2008, 11:28 PM
Chong:
I don't think I will have time.
I only have 2 weeks and oh so many things to do.
Thanks anyway.
Benny
chong
04-08-2008, 11:54 PM
Well, have a great trip, Benny! And don't over-indulge in "chicharon bulaklak". San Miguel beer is a must!
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