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momoese
12-06-2005, 04:55 PM
Ok. I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but it does concern anyone who is growing tropicals or just wants to be warm come summer. I have read quite a bit about global warming and how the oceans are rising etc, etc. We do know the ozone layer has a large hole in it thats getting bigger. That is a proven fact. So today I find this while looking zone maps. Compare the two maps on this page.

http://www.iceagenow.com/PlantHardinessMaps.htm

As you can see the map is changing, but it's getting colder. Some say this is also due to global warming. The auther of the website says that's media hype. Here is the whole site.

http://www.iceagenow.com/

What do you guys think about this? Is it getting colder where you live?

Any opinions about global warming verses ice age? :confused:

JoeReal
12-06-2005, 06:38 PM
It has been relatively on the average here in Northern California, for the last few million years. We still have the arrythmic cycles of El Niño and La Niña. The last few years were relatively wetter, according to the El Niño and La Niña cycles.

Temperature wise, it's the same, although it has been milder in the last few years, but we receive our allotment of chilling hours just the same.

JoeReal
12-06-2005, 06:55 PM
http://earth.rice.edu/mtpe/cryo/cryosphere/hot/greenthin.html
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/33808/story.htm

I may not necessarily believe in global warming, but latest internationally critiqued scientific data shows that today's global CO2 concentration is the highest ever for the last 650,000 years.

http://www.miami.com/mld/mercurynews/news/nation/13254773.htm?source=rss&channel=mercurynews_nation
http://www.freelancenews.com/lifestyles/contentview.asp?c=174120&siteID=33
http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2005/dec/03/yehey/opinion/20051203opi7.html

I can't shake off the fact that this will do nothing to our climate as most skeptics would say. Global warming or ice age, this one giant unprecented single unreplicated human global atmospheric experiment have got to stop. We mess it up, we really mess it up. There is no trial and success.


At the moment, I have no complaints about the weather here when it comes to growing cold hardy bananas.

pitangadiego
12-06-2005, 09:22 PM
Joe,

Can you tell me what the CO2 readings were in 1877, or 1749, or 1633? Who took those readings, and with what equipment? I wasn't aware that we had records going back for 600 millenia. I'd be interested in seeing those records.

momoese
12-06-2005, 09:29 PM
They took readings from air bubbles very deep in the ice. Here is a sample from one of the links above in Joe's post.

"CURRENT levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere are higher than at any time in the past 650,000 years, say researchers who have finished cataloguing air bubbles trapped for millennia inside Antarctic ice. The record, which extends back over the past eight ice ages, shows that today’s concentrations of carbon dioxide and methane for outstrip those in the past.

Atmospheric carbon-dioxide levels have risen 200 times faster over the past 50 years than at any other time during this period, says Thomas Stocker of the University of Bern, Switzerland, who led the analysis.

The researchers studied air bubbles preserved in ice drilled from the Antarctic ice sheet as part of the European Project for Ice Coring in Antarctica (EPICA). The ice core represents a logbook of the state of the world’s climate (see “Frozen time”) and goes back 210,000 years further than previous records.

After searching ice spanning the period of 390,000-650,000 years before present, Stocker’s team has discovered that carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere did not exceed 290 parts per million during that time. Today, that figure is around 375 parts per million.

The situation is similar for methane: during this period, levels hovered around 600 parts per billion. Today’s atmospheric methane concentration is well over 1,700. Stocker and his colleagues report the results in Science."

JoeReal
12-06-2005, 11:08 PM
Joe,
Can you tell me what the CO2 readings were in 1877, or 1749, or 1633? Who took those readings, and with what equipment? I wasn't aware that we had records going back for 600 millenia. I'd be interested in seeing those records.

I can't tell you for sure, I don't have access to those data. But before these are published, they should withstand the scrutiny of international scientists. When I was still a researcher in an international scientific organization, I managed to publish more than 20 scientific articles in the internationally refereed journals, so I know the drill. The links would show that these are published in very credible scientific journals. I would rate them very reliable, about 1,000,000 times more credible than President Bush and his team of crackpot scientific censors with hocus focus data doctoring of actual facts.

JoeReal
12-08-2005, 10:30 AM
I don't see any Ice Age with GreenLand Glaciers and Arctic/Antartic icebergs melting away.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/12/08/glacier.melt.ap/index.html

bigdog
12-08-2005, 01:06 PM
That 1990 map won't go away, no matter how hard we try. It's fairly inaccurate for TN. For instance, Nashville has averaged a warm zone 7a for the past 35 years, at 4.77 degrees F for an average absolute minimum low. Since 1990, the average is 8.53F. Knoxville is also a zone 7a, Chattanooga 7b, and Memphis averages to be a zone 8a. Please don't take that map too seriously. It is a decent, general guide for what you can or cannot grow, but by no means is accurate.

As for global warming, etc., there still is no proof that man is causing any of it. There have been warming and cooling periods for as long as the Earth has been around. Here are a few articles posted on another forum related to this topic.

Global warming on Mars: http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=17977

Other articles:
http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba230.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/18/wsun18.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/18/ixnewstop.html
http://sitewave.net/pproject/review.htm

You won't find an argument from me as to whether or not global warming exists or not. It does. Seems as if these articles come from reliable sources and scientists as well, no "team of crackpot scientific censors with hocus focus data doctoring of actual facts.". Come on, let's not get political here on the banana forum(!?). Your bananas will enjoy the warmer night time temps, as will mine. :D

momoese
12-08-2005, 01:10 PM
Ya it's odd how he says the ice sheet in Greenland is growing when all the searches I do give me info saying it's melting at an alarming rate. I think he may be a shill for the anti-environment pro big business/big polluting people. I have an email out to him, just waiting on a reply so I can start a dialog with him and maybe learn what his real motives are. If what he claims is true and the people in power know it to be true then maybe they have been trying to warm the climate to avoid another ice age. Oops, just gave them a new talking point! lol

Sure we have a great chance of another ice age but I am a bit skeptical of of what he's claiming.

Edit ^^^ I agree, lets not get political. I just wanted a few thoughts from you guys on this guys claims.

JoeReal
12-08-2005, 01:25 PM
Forgive for the term, but I am not trying to be political. The real fact remains, Greenland glaciers are melting away at alarming rates, as well as those in the South American continent, and that our current man-made emissions are the highest in 650,000 years. These are from truly credentialed scientists, and not appointed scientists.

I would gain from the milder and wetter California climate with my bananas, and not sacrificing my temperate crop production. I would lose an island (2 acre arable land with 15,000 sq ft white beach at neap tides) in the Philippines that my wife and I purchased a few years ago. If the water will rise by 25 ft, the highest point will be just 1 ft above the new mean sea level. Any takers from this group? Will be selling it, make an offer. It has a few bananas and coconuts, currently planted to corn, and it has a big fishpen in one side for fish farming on the sea, and the island is well sheltered by the bigger island next to it. It has a Nipa Hut where you can relax, sleep, cook survivor food stuff, nice place to spend vacation once in a while to get away from it all. Too bad now, it is a good place to receive cell phone signals from all the towers of the bigger island, it used to be out of reach.

The island will be my new habitat in case Ice Age comes instead of global metldown. :)

PhilMusa
12-08-2005, 05:26 PM
As for global warming, etc., there still is no proof that man is causing any of it. There have been warming and cooling periods for as long as the Earth has been around.
I agree with Bigdog, the earth is very old and over its lifespan there have been numerous warming and cooling cycles. It looks like we are heading for a warmer cycle which may in turn lead to a cooling cycle. However, these things do not happen overnight and it will take centuries if not longer to figure out what was happening in the early 21st century. In the meantime we need to make sure that we are not accelerating the process. Let’s leave it to good old Mother Nature.

JoeReal
12-08-2005, 08:58 PM
While I will not disagree that the earth have undergone cooling and warming cycles, even the extreme cataclysmic events such as big meteor hits which could conceivably blanket the globe with several times more emissions and dusts (volcanic gasses and ashes), I am worried that we are causing it now. In terms of geologic time scale, what mankind is doing is one extremely rapid change similar to cataclysmic events. Of course we know that each cataclysmic events are followed by episodes of speciation. Can we afford to do such rapid changes that could extend to just a few generations? Shall we let our future generations solve the future problems we are causing now? I just hope that mankind will not be eliminated in the next cataclysmic speciation event.

Casa Del Gatos
12-09-2005, 07:14 AM
I just hope that mankind will not be eliminated in the next cataclysmic speciation event.
Joe, that would be the best thing that ever happened to the planet ;).

Has anyone seen the movie "The Day After Tomorrow?" - very cool (no pun intended) movie with a real accelerated Ice Age.

bigdog
12-09-2005, 08:48 AM
While I do think that man needs to find better energy sources that don't cause harmful emissions and pollution to the atmosphere, once again there is NO PROOF that man is causing global warming. There is global warming on Mars now too. What's causing that?? Recent evidence, as posted in that article below, suggests that the Sun may be the number 1 culprit. Also, while ice seems to be shrinking in some places, it is growing in others.

The very idea that man somehow can stop the world from warming is kind of silly to me.

How much for the island, Joe :D ?

Bananavilla
12-09-2005, 11:10 AM
Bigdog, sounds like you and I are on the same page. Heck, I hope we see a 30 degree warming in winter temps to save Franks back ;)

Man is definitely not great enough to dictate the weather cycles of this planet. It is definitely a much greater force. We are just along for the ride.

As to "The day after tomorrow" - talk about a piece of trash with a political agenda! The people that put that together should be ashamed of themselves :o
Mike

Sodak
12-10-2005, 05:08 PM
No sign of global warming here in South Dakota. Cold! With highs hovering around zero for a week now. Low temp. so far this fall is -14. :eek:

momoese
12-10-2005, 06:45 PM
Just out of curiosity, why does one live where it's so cold? Do you like the cold weather and the full range of seasons that we don't really get here? Are you native to that area and just don't want to leave home? Maybe have family and such making it difficult to relocate? I understand how a person has a hard time moving away from home but man that is really, really cold, especially when you like growing tropicals! :eek: I guess having a greenhouse would make things somewhat easier.

Bananavilla
12-10-2005, 11:02 PM
I too have often wondered this. Guess it is just a different way of life. I lived in Reno NV for several years. They just get's a touch of snow there but are closely located to all the skiing and snowboarding one could want.

I would probably be into hot rodding snow mobiles or something if I lived where there was lot's of snow. Would definitely try a greenhouse as well.
I think the fact that you "aren't supposed to be able to grow them" is half the attraction with tropical plants as well as bananas in North America.

Mike

JoeReal
12-11-2005, 11:16 AM
How much for the island, Joe :D ?

We bought it for the equivalent of $75,000 to give you an idea. There are other islands for sale and way cheaper than this, but we chose it because it is well protected from tropical storms and also near our relatives who can take care of it when we are not around.

JoeReal
12-11-2005, 11:30 AM
Just out of curiosity, why does one live where it's so cold? Do you like the cold weather and the full range of seasons that we don't really get here? Are you native to that area and just don't want to leave home? Maybe have family and such making it difficult to relocate? I understand how a person has a hard time moving away from home but man that is really, really cold, especially when you like growing tropicals! :eek: I guess having a greenhouse would make things somewhat easier.

There are several reasons, but on the gardening side for our specific zone, I have the most diversified kinds of fruit trees growing here and not possible there in LA. There are some truly outstanding peaches, plums, apricots, nectarines, pluots and cherries that often will not bear fruit in warmer climates, or have limited choices in warmer climates.

Our zone, which is the same where Mike is, is quite unique. Although we get a nice compliment of chilling hours during the winter, it is tempered by Maritime influence (aka delta breezes). So it is not as severe like in other places in Northern California. Similarly, while our summers would be very hot, it is tempered during the night, making it very cool, driving our oranges and other citruses to develop the deep orange color on their skins, but of course not as sweet as those in the South. It is wonderful climate to be in. It is like we can have both worlds by taking advantage of this weather pattern and simply looking for microclimates around your yard. Not too many people understand this pattern for their advantage.

Todate, I have more than 275 varieties in my tiny yard, and might be going for fresh fruit every week from the yard the entire year. If I had a bigger yard, I could easily have a germplasm. :D The only thing we can't grow here are the ultra-tropicals.

JoeReal
12-11-2005, 11:57 PM
While I do think that man needs to find better energy sources that don't cause harmful emissions and pollution to the atmosphere, once again there is NO PROOF that man is causing global warming. There is global warming on Mars now too. What's causing that?? Recent evidence, as posted in that article below, suggests that the Sun may be the number 1 culprit. Also, while ice seems to be shrinking in some places, it is growing in others.


Their views and opinions may not necessarily be the same as mine...

From: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=1387081
The Psychology of Global Warming: Alarm-ist Versus Alarm-ing

The vast majority of credible climate scientists — well over 95 percent, according to specialists in assessing scientists' opinions — agree that the average temperatures of the oceans, the land surface of the planet and the lower atmosphere (anything lower than the tip of Mount Everest) have been climbing at an accelerating rate.

The same specialists say that nearly as many scientists agree that manmade greenhouse gas emissions are a significant factor — and a good many say the only significant factor — in the dangerous global warming now under way.

If 95 of the world's best, most experienced experts in child well-being were to tell you that your child was under lethal attack — and with dramatic signs already visible if you only look — would you say, "I think I'll wait until the other five experts are convinced before I do anything about it?"


there's more, just click the link.

TE
09-11-2006, 08:15 AM
I don't personally believe in a future ice age. Because I don't want to? Because prophecy predicts the opposite? Anyway I have been living in the same area for 57 years (central Florida) minus 6 years and it is definitely warmer these last few years. But not warm enough. There is still the threat of frost to live with every winter. I hate cold weather more than hurricanes. By the way, do you know how Greenland got its name? It was not covered with glaciers when the Vikings got there. It was a beautiful grassy land to raise their cattle and sheep and grow great grapes. So the last ice age that covered Greenland in a glacier was just one of those cycles. Jmho, TE

JoeReal
09-11-2006, 09:22 AM
TE, global climatic change have been recognized by almost all (100%) scientists, whether they believe in global warming (95%) or not (5%). The climatic changes for example included extreme mood swings such as prolonged drought and stronger rainfall and flooding in some places. Prolonged heat wave and extreme cold snap in others. A few places will have minor changes like perhaps Central Florida. For California, our summers and winters have generally become milder with more rainfall received. In some the summer velocity have increased.

Generally the temperate zones are moving further north the polar regions shrinking. The increased atmospheric temperature would increase the air's capacity to carry moisture, thus we will have heavier rains and stronger hurricanse. The polar ice caps are shrinking, the tundras and permafrost a-melting releasing more methane into the air which is 25 times more effective greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. Thus we are right now experiencing positive feed back loop. A positive feedback loop is dangerous as it spawns accelaration of events, each cycle exponentially increasing, leading to runaway greenhouse scenario like Venus is in the extreme thermal death trap possibility.

We (system modelers) have looked everywhere, there is no trigger for the next global ice age if we continue this route, but a runaway global warming, unless we will experience once again, seismic upheaval and volcanic eruptions that could blanket the planet to block out most sunlight and triggering the ice age. BTW, we are 30,000 years overdue for such kind of cataclysmic event, based on geologic history. So it could happen anytime. While we await for that event, it is still our responsibility to keep our atmosphere very sane to live in, the best way we can. Everyone will die at one point or another, at least before I die, I'm helping make a better world for the next generations.

momoese
09-11-2006, 09:44 AM
While we await for that event, it is still our responsibility to keep our atmosphere very sane to live in, the best way we can. Everyone will die at one point or another, at least before I die, I'm helping make a better world for the next generations.

You the man Joe! :vandelnana:

jeffreyp
09-11-2006, 11:15 AM
I think it's really hypocritical of all these lobbyists and politicians pointing their fingers at companies (and just about everyone else) for causing global warming, but then they themselves are going about driving around everywhere in their SUV's! There are many factors that cause global warming and one big factor is how close the planets are to the sun. Scientists have noted that the ice caps on mars are melting at an alarming rate.

http://www.mos.org/cst-archive/article/80/9.html

A couple interesting articles...

Dr Sami Solanki, the director of the renowned Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research in Gottingen, Germany, who led the research, said: "The Sun has been at its strongest over the past 60 years and may now be affecting global temperatures.

"The Sun is in a changed state. It is brighter than it was a few hundred years ago and this brightening started relatively recently - in the last 100 to 150 years."


http://www.chronicle.duke.edu/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/10/19/43562bbfb82ca

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=17977

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/18/wsun18.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/18/ixnewstop.html



http://www.space.com/searchforlife/doyle_seti_001127.html



Interestingly, NASA has verified that the sun is getting brighter and hotter. This is having a dramatic effect on the rise of overall temperature on the earth. And that is causing the ocean belt around the equator to particularly heat up and cause more frequent and powerful storms – as we have definitely seen this hurricane/typhoon season.

JoeReal
09-11-2006, 11:30 AM
Thanks Momoese!

Jeffrey, I know that the sun is brighter, and could be brighter by about 10% and this what makes our current conditions worse and the greenhouse effect accelerated.

Based on our models, even if the sun were brighter, and assuming pre-industrial atmospheric conditions where normal uncontaminated cloud cover, massive areas of white capped mountains and glacial areas, the snow's reflectivity, and most of all, insignificant amount of greenhouse gasses, the effects of a brighter sun are attenuated because most radiation would be harmlessly reflected back into space. Thus a 10% in the sun's output would increase our temperature by at best 0.5%, which would translate to a very slight global temperature increase, something about 0.25 deg F only.

Now put a transparent blanket over the earth, in the form of greenhouse gasses, the refected radiation which is in the near infrared, would be absorbed instead. Couple this with the accelerated melting of glaciers, snowmelt all over the world, the loss of arctic white relfective surface areas, we will be absorbing those exra 10% sunlight output at greater efficiencies than ever. It will no longer be as attentuated like before. Plus the increased global temperature caused by man due to greenhouse emissions, have begun to release methane gasses from the melting permafrosts, this is a runaway one, as methane is 25 times more effective greenhouse gas than CO2. Mankind is the trigger, and not the sun. The fact that the sun has increased its radiation intensity is ALL the reason why we should stop the process of a runaway greenhouse warming. The atmosphere that contains heat trapping gases, the global surface which now has lower albedo (reflectivity) makes it very ideal conditions for runaway global warming in the face of increased solar instensity.

So shall we just eat, drink, pollute and be merry for tomorrow we will be toast anyway? We can do something, and we have the science and technology. We can prevent hell on earth.

jeffreyp
09-11-2006, 01:11 PM
I don't disagree with you Joe. I just wanted to point out that the sun is a big contributor to this, and it's something we have no control over. Do we know the reasons why Greenland was as lush as it was a few hundred years ago or did man have an impact on that? Or was the climate warmer because of normal cycles the earth goes through? The supposed biggest contributor to greenhouse gases is the automobile, yet almost no one is willing to give up their car for pure electric. I personally don't have a strong opinion either way, but I think factors such as Solar variation and natural cycles are largely igonored by the lobbyists. Take for example the melting of the polar caps on mars that's happening at a massive scale..Who knows, maybe increased CO2 will result in larger, and healthier plants on a global scale. Since carbon dioxide is used by plants to capture and store energy, there may be a fertilizing effect as levels of the gas rise. This, combined with longer growing seasons, fewer frosts and more precipitation, among other factors, which could be a benefit to us all?

take a peek at these articles..

http://www.junkscience.com/news/robinson.htm
http://www.nationalcenter.org/KyotoQuestionsAnswers.html

:kiteflyingnanergif:

JoeReal
09-11-2006, 01:20 PM
Jeffrey, no problem, even if you disagreed. These are lively discussions and of course, not everything I pointed out I should believe 100% myself.

There used to be palm trees in Antartica, several hundred million years ago. It could be warming or also it could be tilt of the earth, or could be different continental spacing.

You are right that the sun's intensity should be a big factor and should be mentioned to lobbyists, and it multiplies the global warming effect of increased CO2 and other greenhouse gases.

Increased CO2 will increase crop production IF temperature are within nomal range or optimal. High temperature could short-circuit the photosynthetic appartus of most C3 types of plants reducing their yield.

jeffreyp
09-11-2006, 01:34 PM
I think if everyone took small positive steps, it could make a big difference. For example, replacing incandescent bulbs with flourescents, car pooling, taking a train, turning off appliances, recycle, and most importantly...plant some trees in your yard - these are all things that will benefit us all now and in the future!


:2140:

modenacart
02-07-2007, 05:04 PM
I The supposed biggest contributor to greenhouse gases is the automobile, yet almost no one is willing to give up their car for pure electric.
:kiteflyingnanergif:

This is not true by a long shot. Volcanos send out tremendous amounts of CO2. What man produce does not come close to what the earth produces naturally. From what I understand is the scientist that are studying global warming predicted the earth temperature have risen one degree on average. I find that it would be very hard to substantiate this. I doubt science has been able to measure temperature with that kind of accuracy over the last couple of hundred years it has been measuring temperature and you also are going to have stack-up errors when you compile the data. I am not saying that we should pollute, I am all for pollution control, I just think that the global warming argument is the next doomsday prophecy. Man loves doomsday prophecies. I guess if we really want to cut back on CO2 we should eat all the cows and log all the forest to prevent trees from falling and rotting away. Rotting plant life produces massive amounts of CO2 too and cows fart too much. Also the hole in the ozone layer has proven to shrink and grow. To think that one understands the complicity of weather is insane. I believe that they also contribute the high rates of hurricanes to El Niño, which has been going on for thousands of years. This year was predicted to be the worst ever but we have had only one that I can recall right now.

jeffreyp
02-07-2007, 05:21 PM
I suppose it's really too much to ask for some intellectual honesty from politicians. Al Gore was touting that Bush is paying off scientists to give a discenting view on global warming! Unbelieveable..

I guess Bush is paying off the Canadians now..

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm

mrbungalow
02-08-2007, 05:11 PM
The world has too many people and too little resources, too unevenly spread. That's the problem.

It's funny with the energy sector: Politicians allways talk about environmentally friendly cars etc. but in Brazil for example they have driven alcohol-powered cars for decades. Surely we have technology to make high-performance alcohol engines as well as a sustainable methanol/ethanol supply? In fact, the ideal fuel-mixture for an engine (Max energy output pr. litre) is said to be part alcohol and part petrol. Problem is, if we start utilizing alcohol, what happens to the oil-companies that rule the world? Bio-diesel is also a possibillity, if someone finds a way to get rid of all the excess sulfur this bio-diesel usually is loaded with. Several companies are allready online selling DIY bio-diesel apparatus.

Norway is definately getting warmer. The glaciers are getting smaller. Every 5 years, we have a "super summer", we had one in 1997, 2002, and probably this coming summer in 2007. In the years inbetween I think the winters are warmer but summers are generally cooler.

momoese
02-08-2007, 07:14 PM
I think that the argument shouldn't be about whether it's a natural occurrence or not, it should be about how to best stop it.

I heard about a plan to send some giant reflectors into space to stop some of the suns heat from getting here. Interesting idea to say the least. Here is some talk about it:

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002868.html

modenacart
02-08-2007, 07:45 PM
I think that the argument shouldn't be about whether it's a natural occurrence or not, it should be about how to best stop it.

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002868.html

If its a natural occurrence, why should we be trying to stop it? If its time for the planet to warm itself then its going to do it whether we like it or not.

momoese
02-08-2007, 08:12 PM
If its a natural occurrence, why should we be trying to stop it? If its time for the planet to warm itself then its going to do it whether we like it or not.

Me thinks it would make for a longer life......and for the future generations too.

We may have the technology to control the climate. It's just a matter of funding it.

modenacart
02-08-2007, 09:43 PM
I think we think too much of ourselves. The world is bigger than us.

jeffreyp
02-14-2007, 01:00 PM
I thought this was too funny...

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash8.htm

modenacart
03-01-2007, 04:43 PM
I thought this was interesting.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17382210/

sunfish
01-25-2014, 10:22 PM
Bump

caliboy1994
01-26-2014, 03:44 AM
Hardiness Zone Changes at arborday.org (http://www.arborday.org/media/mapchanges.cfm)