View Full Version : Soil experts
natedogg1026
02-09-2008, 12:25 AM
O.K. I prefer organic soil for my Bananas but I want to improve the structure of the soil. My soil is almost 100% compost. My city water treatment got a grant to buy the equipment to to maintain a giant compost pile. Anyone can bring leaves, grass clippings, and a few other things. They shred it, water it, bake it and churn it and man is it good stuff, for free! Anyway that's what i use, sifted w/a 1/4 in screen to get all the chunks out. Black gold. The plants love it, its so full of nutrients! But can someone help me improve the structure of the soil? Make it more water retentive yet drain better Add some peat maybe, a little sand? Perlite? I'd be interest to know what others of you use. Thanx in advance!-Nate:dreadlocksnaner:PS Anyone close who wants free compost, let me know. They have more than you'll need. Literally.
D_&_T
02-09-2008, 12:42 AM
going to have to hit our towns pile this spring!!
billabong
02-09-2008, 12:46 AM
I would definately add some sand and peat. How much of these depends on how well your area retains water. Peat will help your mix retain nutrients the compost releases (even with the high amount of compost you can have leaching and nutrient loss) while as you stated the sand will aid in drainage.
momoese
02-09-2008, 12:48 AM
Why do you feel you need to change it?
bencelest
02-09-2008, 01:01 AM
Bananas are not picky. As long as the soil is well draining and your pH is slightly acid you are good to go. As long as you give plenty of fertilizer and sunlight they'll be happy.
natedogg1026
02-09-2008, 01:11 AM
It just seems to dry out so fast, Mitchell.
aroidgrower
02-09-2008, 01:35 AM
I took up making a huge compost pile this year and last. My pile is about as big as a school bus. It mostly consist of dried leaves. I have found that adding coffee grounds adds nitrogen and raises the PH. Once the leaves break down it can hold in a lot of water peat could help as well. I know a friend who has a bed that is 3 to 4 feet deep of compost were he grows his tropicals. The only really bad problem I have seen using tons of compost is when the bed is really lose the plants tend to fall over easier during wind storms even if they are rooted in well. I usually stake most of my larger bananas for the summer just to be safe.
Richard
02-09-2008, 01:37 AM
The suggestion to add peat and sand is good. Rinse the sand before you use it to remove any salts, and beware that products sold as "playground sand" often contain herbicides and pesticides. If you can find paver pack base (step 1) that is labeled "sharp sand", that is ideal and often inexpensive by the bag or in bulk. Make sure you mix the peat well as it tends to "knit" with itself when it dries. I like ground Coir even better.
I have been using compost from 3 sources: my own, from the city of San Diego, and from the El Corazon facility in the city of Oceanside. Each source has been used on a different set of about 15 trees each, located somewhat randomly about the yard. The trees that received the free mulch from the city of San Diego all developed infestations of black sooty mold and brought forth huge quantities of June bugs (!). I will not use it again. All the other trees did fine.
momoese
02-09-2008, 09:33 AM
Richard, I'm starting to see a pattern developing with the city free mulch programs. You are not alone! I was going to try it this season but I've changed my mind now.
Nate, adding any kind of organic material will help with water retention. Vermiculite will hold water too. Sand, gravel or perlite will make it drain even faster.
My soil is mostly clay based so adding organic material is a must. The clay does help to keep the plants from blowing over in heavy winds though. Every plant I've lost in the winds were broken at the base or half way up the pseudostem, never has a corm and the roots come loose.
NANAMAN
02-09-2008, 11:18 AM
O.K. I prefer organic soil for my Bananas but I want to improve the structure of the soil. My soil is almost 100% compost. My city water treatment got a grant to buy the equipment to to maintain a giant compost pile. Anyone can bring leaves, grass clippings, and a few other things. They shred it, water it, bake it and churn it and man is it good stuff, for free! Anyway that's what i use, sifted w/a 1/4 in screen to get all the chunks out. Black gold. The plants love it, its so full of nutrients! But can someone help me improve the structure of the soil? Make it more water retentive yet drain better Add some peat maybe, a little sand? Perlite? I'd be interest to know what others of you use. Thanx in advance!-Nate:dreadlocksnaner:PS Anyone close who wants free compost, let me know. They have more than you'll need. Literally.
Nate, you said that your soil is almost 100% compost. What was the base before you started adding compost, clay, sand, silt, a mixture of all three? I wish I had the problem of having too much compost! The addition of compost aids in the retention of water, aids in drainage, and betters the soil structure all at the same time. If you think that you need to add a little clay, or sand to it, you could layer the amendments to it as you add more compost. I wouldn't think that adding peat to it is necessary, but it could be beneficial. In my yard, the base is almost 100% sand. I constantly have to add compost and other organic amendments to it. The temps. here break it down in a couple of months. I have been mulching, 4 to 6 in. thick, with aged horse manure and bedding , at about 4 to 6 mo. intervals. I layer with other organic amendments, and supplement with chem. ferts. when necessary. I just finished adding 10 yards of the stuff over the past 2 days, and I'm already thinking about when I'll have a chance, and the money, to add more! Here's a few pics.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7888&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7888)
about 4" of mulch
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7889&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7889)
you can see that the soil below the mulch is very sandy
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7894&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7894)
Freshly mulched bed
bencelest
02-09-2008, 01:17 PM
Brian I can see in your picture which appears fresh bark of some kind which is mixed with your soil mix. And plenty of it.
I am hesitant to add fresh bark as I know when it decomposes rub nitrogen in the soil. Do you have that kind of problem?
Richard
02-09-2008, 01:46 PM
Richard, I'm starting to see a pattern developing with the city free mulch programs. You are not alone! I was going to try it this season but I've changed my mind now.
Mitchel, I see you are in West Los Angeles (hey! I was born at Good Samaritan hospital !). The company Agri Service Inc. is opening a new processing plant at the Santa Clarita Compost Facility in Newhall. They produce the highest quality products anywhere. In smaller quantities, it is $12 per cubic yard. For more information, see this link: Agri Service, Inc. (http://www.agriserviceinc.com/agriservice.html)
NANAMAN
02-09-2008, 02:17 PM
Brian I can see in your picture which appears fresh bark of some kind which is mixed with your soil mix. And plenty of it.
I am hesitant to add fresh bark as I know when it decomposes rub nitrogen in the soil. Do you have that kind of problem?
Benny, no problem with that. I usually add some type of nitrogen rich organic fert. before mulching ( blood meal, cotton seed meal, etc...). The problem is keeping a thick enough layer of mulch.
microfarmer
02-09-2008, 03:08 PM
As stated, vermiculite is very water retentive and a good replacement for peat. It is also nuetral. Wood stove ashes will help hold water too, but will change the ph a bit. Also, you might try dried, ground clay, that when wet, will retain moisture and improve structure.
Maybe a top dressing of wood chips will hold the moisture in the soil for you. The chips should breakdown slowly and not hurt the nitrogen too much, especially if you're adding additional ferts. I used some shredded Eucalyptus tree mulch (doesn't break down very fast at all) and had real nice moisture retention. The nice red color was a plus...
Shredded redwood bark (gorilla hair?) will also last longer and not rob too much nitrogen. Use it only as a top dressing, not incorporated into the soil...
bencelest
02-09-2008, 03:54 PM
Microfarmer:
Thanks for the good info. I was thinking to mix it with the soil now I will do as you say.
And thanks a million.
Benny
natedogg1026
02-09-2008, 11:29 PM
Like Aroidgrower said, pure compost makes for such a loose soil. I'd like to beef it up to support those large Nana's. Maybe I just need to mix in some Kansas clay. Thanx for everyones input.--NATE
microfarmer
02-10-2008, 09:21 PM
Like Aroidgrower said, pure compost makes for such a loose soil. I'd like to beef it up to support those large Nana's. Maybe I just need to mix in some Kansas clay. Thanx for everyones input.--NATE
I'd mix in some clay if you think your soil is too light. Make sure it is mixed in well, and it doesn't clump. A good compost should be very airy at the surface, but will be denser further down, unless you rototill it deep, or put down a very thick layer often. Putting a top dressing of shredded bark or shredded tree mulch on it will keep the moisture in, and the loose soil will allow the banana's roots to travel further, faster, with more root hairs, providing a better anchor even though the soil is loose.
Being in Kansas I know the winds you get from some of those storms. I grew up in the Chicago area and know what a good storm will bring. You are smack dab in the 'alley' and that in itself says 'lotsa wind'.
:kiteflyingnanergif:
Good luck!
Richard
02-12-2008, 04:03 PM
Here is my 5 cubic yard "soil mixer" in production! For the current batch of soil:
1st layer: 4 wheelbarrows full of "yellow fill" (32 cubic feet)
2nd layer: 2 packages of Kellogg N'Rich (6 cubic feet)
3rd layer: 4 wheelbarrows full of native clay and 1-2 inch rock (32 cubic feet)
Rototill it, then repeat until 10 x 10 x 1.5 feet high!
Yellow Fill is available from most quarries, it is the cheapest ($7 / cubic yard) screened material you can buy. It is about 1/4 clay, 1/3 sand, and the rest coarse sand, pebbles, and a bit of gravel up to 1-inch size.
This particular batch is for the Pecan Tree planter I am building in the front yard. For Bananas, I will need a different mixture.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7962&size=1
bencelest
02-12-2008, 05:08 PM
It's looking good. Richard.
Dean W.
07-19-2008, 01:12 AM
Another thread I missed. I'll be applying some compost tommorow and I am wondering how deep I should apply it. I guess 4-6" deep sounds like the optimum? Anyone disagree?
harveyc
07-19-2008, 11:05 AM
Unless drainage is a problem, I would not bother adding any sand as it adds essentially no nutrients. As another person or two mentioned, you didn't mention what your underlying soil consists of. Simply mixing your compost into your soil down to 18 inches will greatly improve your soil structure. Many people hate their clay soils but it is rich in nutrients and is the base for great soil if you mix in enough organic matter (compost). It also aids in stability and water retention. I'm no soil expert, but did take 4 or 5 courses in soil science at Cal Poly (many years ago). One of the first things I learned is that say, being the smallest soil particle, has much more surface area for holding water and nutrients. It also makes it great for adobe bricks. Unless you're not in the adobe brick business, it's best to add organic matter to improve soil structure. Organic matter also has a great cation exchange capacity to hold onto nutrients.
I've got three large compost piles (8-10 fee wide and 5 feet tall) and a loader to mix it up, but they dry out on me too much. My water supply is about 300 feet away and I've finally decided I need to extend my water line to my compost area. I wish I bought a trencher 10 years ago!
Dean W.
07-19-2008, 11:14 AM
Hey Harvey, there are parts of my yard that are different. Most of it is clay underneath a shallow layer of topsoil. Other parts it's clachie, almost a consitency of crushed limestone. I have 5 compost piles that I'm using now. They aren't as big as your's, but I live on a small suburban lot.
Dean W.
07-19-2008, 11:18 AM
I've got three large compost piles (8-10 fee wide and 5 feet tall) and a loader to mix it up, but they dry out on me too much. My water supply is about 300 feet away and I've finally decided I need to extend my water line to my compost area. I wish I bought a trencher 10 years ago!
:ha:
natedogg1026
07-19-2008, 11:18 AM
Dean, See my thread "new beds".
Dean W.
07-19-2008, 11:20 AM
Okay!
harveyc
07-19-2008, 11:21 AM
Gypsum is also beneficial in many cases to improve soil structure for clay soils. Magnesium is also said to help and, since bananas love potassium, K-Mag is a great fertilizer (and it's organic as well). I got 900 pounds of it last year from my supplier to split up with Joe R. and Benny and just put more on my bananas two days ago.
Dean W.
07-19-2008, 11:26 AM
Gypsum is also beneficial in many cases to improve soil structure for clay soils. Magnesium is also said to help and, since bananas love potassium, K-Mag is a great fertilizer (and it's organic as well). I got 900 pounds of it last year from my supplier to split up with Joe R. and Benny and just put more on my bananas two days ago.
Richard, told me about gypsum. I hadn't used it before. I've been putting some in the bottom of holes I dig. I'm looking in to the K-Mag right now. I have to figure out where to buy it at. Wow, that's alot of fertilizer. Thanks
harveyc
07-19-2008, 11:33 AM
It's all relative, Dean. Two years ago I bought 25 tons of gypsum for some of my fields that are heavy clay. Even that was considered a small order for my dealer. We also put on about 13 tons of potash in our alfalfa last fall like we do every year (for 130 acres).
I think the K-Mag worked out to something like $.25 per pound when I got it last year, but it would be higher at a retail level. I imagine it's harder to find in some areas but most grower outlets should be able to get it.
microfarmer
07-19-2008, 11:39 AM
Another thread I missed. I'll be applying some compost tommorow and I am wondering how deep I should apply it. I guess 4-6" deep sounds like the optimum? Anyone disagree?
That's a good place to start. It'll settle so it's ok to bring it up the stem just a bit. Just don't bury the pups with open leaves. Swords are ok to bury slightly if the leaves are still unfurled. They'll just get taller.
Chironex
09-15-2008, 03:20 PM
Richard's website is selling the K mag and other soil amenders.
Hey, quick question, I just re-potted several of my bananas into larger pots. I bought a bunch of Kellogg's Garden Compost in bags and used it 100% in filling the pots. As I was cleaning-up I noticed that on the back of the bag, there is a note that says "Not for use in containers" - holy moley!!! What is this all about? Should I worry? The bananas really seem to like it. I sure would hate to have to re-pot them and buy more soil. It would take about 30 bags to replace all of these. Yikes!
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