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Richard
01-20-2008, 02:00 AM
I'm considering partially raised beds for the 5 banana mats I will build in the late spring. The beds will be 6" below ground plus 12" above, and about 7' by 4' each. The walls of the bed have a narrow vent every 16" for drainage.

Anyway, I'd like to keep these beds from getting too cold during the winter which is pretty mild here in zone 9+/10-. Has anyone experimented with running heating cables around in an outdoor raised bed?

Thanks ...

bencelest
01-20-2008, 04:13 AM
I installed heating cables under the soil a couple of years ago at the same place where I am building my raised bed now. I installed it and had my potted plants on top of the heating cables. I let it run for a few nights but I stopped turning them on when I found out that the heating cable was rated at 1800 watts. I figured it is just like turning on an iron or a room heater all night long. I did not want to pay the extra electricity so I left it off all the time and finally I removed it. I still have the heating cable uninstalled.
I figured I am better off using Christmas lights to warm up the soil.

CookieCows
01-20-2008, 09:42 AM
I'm interested in everyone's raised bed information. I'd like to plant as much as possible in the ground eventually. We live in the rocky/caves area of Kentucky and it's neat... but now that we live here we know that everyone knows what property is lacking topsoil. Ours is one of those. (maybe that's why we got it so cheap?) The details on the making of the raised beds for what bananas like is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

I really liked your photos of how you made the bed for the trees too.

Deb

CookieCows
01-20-2008, 09:49 AM
I figured I am better off using Christmas lights to warm up the soil.

I looked up another thread on this to see if you meant something as simple as laying them on the ground and yup that's what you meant! Was wondering if you ever tried it?

Deb

bencelest
01-20-2008, 11:14 AM
Deb:
The heating cable is suppose to be permanent and out of sight since they were installed under ground. The Christmas lights are temporary since I just wrap them around the pot and around the tree trunks.
One drawback of using Christmas lights:
One of my neighbors asked me one day why I had Christmas lights on in my backyard way past Christmas time. (LOL). I've been using them for 3 years now. But this year, I only use a few CL since my plants are well established now and they can stand on their own.
I am not a pro and I have no experience putting up a raised bed yet but I'll just use my common sense doing it. The main ingredient of a good soil is pH. It should be near neutral 7.0 and slightly acidic and the soil must be well drained and fertile. I am also thinking to spend the least amount of money and not grow hog wild buying things.
So I will get the sand free near the beach once I drained all the salts from it.
Then get me a bulk of redwood bark or something similar, then a bunch of steer manure bags and perhaps, perlite, and I have a lot of compost in my yard and top soil. I will also scout for tree trimmers who cut up the leaves and trunks of the trees they cut. They cut them into small bite size bits. I'll use them as mulch.

Someone comment about my structure I am building and here's my answer:




Joined: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 1331
Location: Salinas, California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
Green: Thanks for the kind words. I am just thinking how I can grow my citrus and bananas the cheapest way possible using nature as my friend.
I'll try not using propane or electricity but using good insulation from the wind. And maybe, maybe install a vent free heater using natural gas as heat source I think the cheapest of them all.


Last edited by bencelest on Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:43 am; edited 2 times in total

Richard
01-20-2008, 12:10 PM
I am using the C7 type of Christmas lights to provide warmth to a row of Pitayas. The string of lights is about 1 foot off the ground and 1 foot away from the plants. I found that if a light bulb is closer than 8 inches to the plant then damage to the plant occurs. The string of lights is connected to an outdoor thermostat which switches on when the temperature drops below 45 (F). This only occurs at night for a few months in sunny Sandy Eggo. The "string" of lights is composed of two strings, each rated 25 watts, for a total of 50 feet.

As for heating cables in a raised bed, my thought was to embed them in the walls of the planter which would be constructed with some insulating material. The 1800 watt cables bencelest spoke of sound like those used for floor heating in homes when a builder in Southern CA thought electricity would be cheap forever (1960's). I have found heating cables designed for greenhouses that are rated from 100 to 300 watts, depending on length and design. I could afford to run five 100-watt cables for 10 hours per day for 3 months. Has anyone tried this?

bencelest
01-20-2008, 12:20 PM
I am using the C7 type of Christmas lights to provide warmth to a row of Pitayas. The string of lights is about 1 foot off the ground and 1 foot away from the plants. I found that if a light bulb is closer than 8 inches to the plant then damage to the plant occurs. The string of lights is connected to an outdoor thermostat which switches on when the temperature drops below 45 (F). This only occurs at night for a few months in sunny Sandy Eggo. The "string" of lights is composed of two strings, each rated 25 watts, for a total of 50 feet.

As for heating cables in a raised bed, my thought was to embed them in the walls of the planter which would be constructed with some insulating material. The 1800 watt cables bencelest spoke of sound like those used for floor heating in homes when a builder in Southern CA thought electricity would be cheap forever (1960's). I have found heating cables designed for greenhouses that are rated from 100 to 300 watts, depending on length and design. I could afford to run five 100-watt cables for 10 hours per day for 3 months. Has anyone tried this?

Yes it is true that I ordered the heating cable from Ebay and it is designed for floor heating.
Richard , can you tell us more about the greenhouse heating cable ? ie where can you buy them? What brand? etc....
I am also skeptical as to the heat it can generate.
I believe someone posted in another website regarding this a couple years back that it did not give enough heat for the plant. I maybe mistaken though.

CookieCows
01-20-2008, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by bencelest One drawback of using Christmas lights:One of my neighbors asked me one day why I had Christmas lights on in my backyard way past Christmas time. (LOL).
That is so funny! Our neighbors can't see us so we could get away with it.

I have a couple questions...The area we're working with for the raised bed can be as wide as we want but I'm thinking of keeping it about 4' wide. Right now it's a mound with junipers that extends about 40 feet that we want to change into a raised bed for tropicals using large rocks for the walls we can get pretty cheap from a quarry. I'm struggling with the soil. Should I try to transform the existing soil which is cheap top soil that was trucked in by dump truck or dig it out and buy new soil in bags and mix up the same composition as for pots. Obviously if I go the route of digging it all out I won't be able to afford the soil mix for the entire length all at once which is ok... we'd just extend as far as we can and then do more next year.

Originally Posted by Richard As for heating cables in a raised bed, my thought was to embed them in the walls of the planter which would be constructed with some insulating material.
My next question is what kind of insulating material were you planning to use to build your walls?

The last question is that our bed will be aprox. 24" deep with bedrock at the bottom. Does that make a difference in what we'll be dealing with come winter as far as ground temp.? Does it mean that it might not retain the heat as well? I'm leaving out any thoughts of burying a heating element right now. I don't want to get into all that if we don't have to. I'm only going to put the hardiest tropicals into the ground and the two fruiting banana's I'll leave in pots to bring in the house in winter. Any ideas of the best way to go about this will be greatly appreciated!
Deb

natedogg1026
01-20-2008, 05:49 PM
There were two main reason I raised my beds. One, drainage. We had 22 inches of rain in one month last year and I lost a lot of plants just simply because the water table was maxed out. Raising the beds six to eight in. will give the roots somewhere to go in order to breath. The beds are surrounded by bricks and mounded up and water should drain through the cracks. I don't think there is any reason to worry about making a special drain. The water will find a way out. Two, they warm up faster. This should help speed the growth of the plants in early spring with warmer soil. Also they will stay warmer in the winter helping to make it easier for my plants to survive. Since I was raising the beds I figured it was also time so start over with my soil. I recycled what I had by mixing it 50/50 with compost and added a little gravel for drainage. As far as the heating cables, sounds a little extreme but I would have said that 2 years ago if I were to see my present Nana collection!:banana_ba :2759: :2121: :0496: :2197: :2708: :2745: :2723: :nanerwizard: :2121: :0496: :hiddenbanana: --NATE

Taylor
01-20-2008, 07:44 PM
:pics:

CookieCows
01-20-2008, 08:02 PM
My husband told me earlier to go out and take a picture of the mound for the before shot and I said, 'no.. there are too many weeds on it!' LOL Guess I better get out there when this freeze lets up!

Richard
01-20-2008, 08:27 PM
The last question is that our bed will be aprox. 24" deep with bedrock at the bottom. Does that make a difference in what we'll be dealing with come winter as far as ground temp.?

I would dig a hole now (January) down to the bedrock, place an agricultural temperature probe made for this purpose there, and then bury the hole -- with the wires from the probe coming out of course. Now that disturbed dirt in the hole will conduct heat and water more than it did before. Cover it with a piece of plywood and put some rocks or something heavy on it. Record the temperature at 6am, noon, and 6pm under different weather conditions, ALSO recording the outdoor air temperature in that area at the same time. You'd prefer if the bedrock temperature did not drop below 45 (F). If it stays above 55 (F), have a party!

:nanerwizard:

My biggest concern with your plan is drainage. If you are building a PARTIALLY raised bed over bedrock, then you are focusing water over the same. Personally, I would construct one or two french drains to wick excess water out from the deepest portion of the bed.

Richard
01-20-2008, 08:59 PM
Richard , can you tell us more about the greenhouse heating cable ? ie where can you buy them? What brand? etc....
I am also skeptical as to the heat it can generate.
I believe someone posted in another website regarding this a couple years back that it did not give enough heat for the plant. I maybe mistaken though.

The greenhouse heating cables I've seen are not for heating the greenhouse but for providing more heat at a specific location. The greenhouse itself has its own (typically gas) heater. So I wasn't surprised that someone was disappointed with the performance in an unprotected outdoor situation.

Also, Benceleste and I are in zone 9, so outdoors we are really only fighting a 10 or 15 degree (F) difference between low overnight temperatures and the lowest temperature we want our tropicals exposed to (45 deg F). IF I lived in a colder climate (e.g., where I lived in McKinleyville, CA or in Denver, CO) I would have a greenhouse and grow bananas and other tropicals in tubs on an insulated floor.

I have seen the greenhouse heating cables advertised in catalogs that arrive here every month or so by postal mail. I'll search around in the recycle bin for one.

CookieCows was asking about how I would insulate the walls. So far the cheapest solution (but the most labor intensive) is channeled cinder block stacked 3 high; they measure 6" wide by 8" high by 16" long. I would mortar them together, but fill them with R30 insulation instead of concrete. The heating cable would run down the channels. The bottom bricks would tarred to a 6" wide strip of 1" thick rubber matting that is used in construction. The top of the bricks would also be sealed off. A temperature probe would also be placed internally, but at some distance from the heating cable. I think I would set the cable to come on when the temperature drops below 50 (F).

To find out if the cable is necessary, I am currently building another raised bed but for a non-tropical plant. I am going to construct it without a cable, but with the temperature probe and measure what is going on.

Richard
01-20-2008, 11:20 PM
This thread is worthless without pics!

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7642&size=1

CookieCows
01-21-2008, 12:25 PM
A temp. probe! Why don't the simple solutions come to mind ... LOL I searched online and finally found a reasonable priced one in the $20 range for home use but will go to the feed store to see if they have one first. A french drain is a good idea. I think I have the soil worked out in my mind so I think we're good to go. Will post pics as we go. I love seeing everyones pics and plans!

I just want to pick out plants!! :o)

AllenF
01-21-2008, 01:37 PM
I have a heated shelter in use here in Zone 3 that is designed to maintain the air and soil temperatures at or above the freezing mark. It has maintained a short term temperature of -6*C/20*F in weather of -25*C/-15*F with a 30 MPH wind and a windchill of -35*C/-32*F.

Normally it maintains 0*C/32*F at -10*C/12*F and -2*C/28*F at -20*C/-5*F with little or no wind. Sun light can raise that temperature to as much as 12*C/50*F at -20*C/-5*F.

The heat cable turns on at 37*F and off at 43*F. It uses only 2.5 watts per cubic foot of air space.

If anyone is interested, I can post the details or PM the details.

Allen

Richard
01-21-2008, 02:26 PM
Way to go, Allen! :2720:

bencelest
01-21-2008, 09:22 PM
I have a heated shelter in use here in Zone 3 that is designed to maintain the air and soil temperatures at or above the freezing mark. It has maintained a short term temperature of -6*C/20*F in weather of -25*C/-15*F with a 30 MPH wind and a windchill of -35*C/-32*F.

Normally it maintains 0*C/32*F at -10*C/12*F and -2*C/28*F at -20*C/-5*F with little or no wind. Sun light can raise that temperature to as much as 12*C/50*F at -20*C/-5*F.

The heat cable turns on at 37*F and off at 43*F. It uses only 2.5 watts per cubic foot of air space.

If anyone is interested, I can post the details or PM the details.

Allen

I am very interested specially the wattage use per cubic foot.
Please PM me or post it here so others can know.And the thermostat you are using.

Richard
01-21-2008, 09:49 PM
Of course a 12 x 12 x 12 ft greenhouse heated by a 2.5 W / cu.ft. cable would draw about 4300 W. A small butane-powered heater with clothes-dryer ducting and thermostat control would go through a $35 gas canister about once a month.

bencelest
01-22-2008, 12:55 AM
That would equal to 4.3 Kilowatts per hour.
It is more than I am willing to pay for electricity. So that's out.

AllenF
01-22-2008, 03:00 PM
DA**. I had the description almost finished when the computor decided to shut down. I lost everything. That does it. No more clones. I'll pick up a Mac as soon as the new models are out and the current models are being sold at a discount.

Bencelest; I use 2 x30' 210 Watt heating cables that are made to keep the water lines from freezing on mobile homes. To keep the soil from freezing as well as the air temperature close to freezing, I built a frame out of 1/2" copper water line. Using 'T' connectors I put 2 1/2' legs on the frame about every 2'. Copper transmits heat quickly and evenly. I tape the heating cable to the copper pipe frame. Then I push the legs 1 1/2' into the ground. The thermostat of the heating tape is attached to the copper pipe and turns on the heating tape when the copper pipe reaches 37*F and turns off when the temperature of the pipe reaches 43*F. The heating tape cannot touch the ground and must be protected from moisture. The heating cables do not run continuously. The shelter also is heated by the sun. It is a light color and doesn't take full advantage of the sun.

I have no idea what this is costing me. I signed a long term electrical delivery contract at $4.50 per gigajoule 4 years ago and it has 1 year left. Electricity costs peaked at $13.50/gigajoule 2 years ago and as far as I know they are over $8 right now. The electric company is trying to get me to cancel the contract by not reading the meter, sending me outrageous bills at erratic times and sending past due notices(that are sometimes received on the same day as the bill). I read the meter myself, pay them what I think I owe them every month and send each of their bills to the regulation agency questioning their accuracy. Eventually I get a 'corrected' bill and the game continues. Corrected bills are at least 6 months behind but I have the pleasure of knowing that the electric company pays a $100 fine each time. I also know that every time I turn on a light the electric company loses money. Unfortunately the contract is for personal use only and I can't resell the electricity.

The walls and a 2' deep soil filled 'basement' are all made of 3" styrofoam board that is used up here to insulate the outside of concrete basements. The styrofoam has an insulation value of about R15. Material costs here were about $250 per shelter and would probably double if you had to use 2 layers of the1 1/2" foam board that is used for home insulation. I doubt that it will be worth it for anyone who is in Zone 6 or higher. PM me for details if you are interested.

Allen

bencelest
01-22-2008, 03:57 PM
DA**. I had the description almost finished when the computor decided to shut down. I lost everything. That does it. No more clones. I'll pick up a Mac as soon as the new models are out and the current models are being sold at a discount.

Bencelest; I use 2 x30' 210 Watt heating cables that are made to keep the water lines from freezing on mobile homes. To keep the soil from freezing as well as the air temperature close to freezing, I built a frame out of 1/2" copper water line. Using 'T' connectors I put 2 1/2' legs on the frame about every 2'. Copper transmits heat quickly and evenly. I tape the heating cable to the copper pipe frame. Then I push the legs 1 1/2' into the ground. The thermostat of the heating tape is attached to the copper pipe and turns on the heating tape when the copper pipe reaches 37*F and turns off when the temperature of the pipe reaches 43*F. The heating tape cannot touch the ground and must be protected from moisture. The heating cables do not run continuously. The shelter also is heated by the sun. It is a light color and doesn't take full advantage of the sun.

I have no idea what this is costing me. I signed a long term electrical delivery contract at $4.50 per gigajoule 4 years ago and it has 1 year left. Electricity costs peaked at $13.50/gigajoule 2 years ago and as far as I know they are over $8 right now. The electric company is trying to get me to cancel the contract by not reading the meter, sending me outrageous bills at erratic times and sending past due notices(that are sometimes received on the same day as the bill). I read the meter myself, pay them what I think I owe them every month and send each of their bills to the regulation agency questioning their accuracy. Eventually I get a 'corrected' bill and the game continues. Corrected bills are at least 6 months behind but I have the pleasure of knowing that the electric company pays a $100 fine each time. I also know that every time I turn on a light the electric company loses money. Unfortunately the contract is for personal use only and I can't resell the electricity.

The walls and a 2' deep soil filled 'basement' are all made of 3" styrofoam board that is used up here to insulate the outside of concrete basements. The styrofoam has an insulation value of about R15. Material costs here were about $250 per shelter and would probably double if you had to use 2 layers of the1 1/2" foam board that is used for home insulation. I doubt that it will be worth it for anyone who is in Zone 6 or higher. PM me for details if you are interested.

Allen

Allen:
Thanks for a detailed response.
I for now will wait.
Your plan is too complicated for me to follow.
Since I am in zone 9 I will just wait and see what I will do regarding my soil. I will not heat the soil for now.
I will just heat the surrounding air and hopefully the soil also will heat up to an acceptable level.
As I understand it, in order for a good growth, the soil tempt must be raised if the surrounding air is raised. And of course other factors is considered as well such as sunlight and soil fertility.

Richard
01-22-2008, 04:10 PM
Allen,

Thanks for the great pointer to heating cables used for water pipes in mobile homes. The wattage and length are just what I'm looking for, esp. since mobile homes are targeted at a lower income group of consumers. I'll go check on prices in the U.S.

CookieCows
01-22-2008, 04:39 PM
You can buy heating cables at any hardware store.

Richard
01-22-2008, 04:53 PM
You can buy heating cables at any hardware store.

Yes, but in my area the hardware stores carry the 1200+ Watt variety for floor heating. Those are too expensive to operate. The 210 W cable Allen found is a better long term solution if you need it.

microfarmer
01-22-2008, 04:53 PM
I have a couple questions...The area we're working with for the raised bed can be as wide as we want but I'm thinking of keeping it about 4' wide. Right now it's a mound with junipers that extends about 40 feet that we want to change into a raised bed for tropicals using large rocks for the walls we can get pretty cheap from a quarry. I'm struggling with the soil. Should I try to transform the existing soil which is cheap top soil that was trucked in by dump truck or dig it out and buy new soil in bags and mix up the same composition as for pots. Obviously if I go the route of digging it all out I won't be able to afford the soil mix for the entire length all at once which is ok... we'd just extend as far as we can and then do more next year. Deb

You'd be surprised what a covercrop (clover, vetch, legumes, rye) and compost mulching/topdressing will do for your soil with only minimal purchased ammendments (bone/blood meal, gypsum, lime, etc.). Check your soil PH, then add recommended amounts to balance it. Rye grass will break up harder soils with their roots. Some call it nature's jackhammer. Replant rye each winter for continued benefits. You can interplant spring/summer covercrops around your nanners (maintain a bare soil perimeter around the bananas) as a companion planting. Just wait to sow after the plants show growth.

When I did my raised beds, I also dug my pond. I worked at an equipment rental yard and brought home a mini excavator. I dug the hole for the satellite dish (my pond) and placed all the spoils in my garden area. I then dug 'walkways' in the garden area and placed the spoils in the planting area. I stepped back and looked at it. Digging the paths automatically created the raised beds. I then surrounded them with either stones or stacked bricks and backfilled. I used stacked broken concrete (with moss starter applied to turn it green) for the backside of the raised bed surrounding the pond and waterfall.

I have all my plantings in a raised bed of some kind, even if it's just a mound of soil with no border or wall. I would not recommend using RR ties as they smell very bad in the summer, or pressure treated wood as the preservative chemicals could end up in your bananas/veggies.

Richard, thanks for posting the plans.

Richard
01-22-2008, 05:01 PM
You'd be surprised what a covercrop (clover, vetch, legumes, rye) ...

... I would not recommend using RR ties as they smell very bad in the summer, or pressure treated wood as the preservative chemicals could end up in your bananas/veggies.

Clover is a great cover crop, esp. under plants that need lots of bees for cross-pollination. Seed both the winter and summer varieties in the fall and spring for year-round coverage.

The plants to worry about uptake of chemicals from treated wood are vegetables and primarly not fruits. HOWEVER, the sawdust generated from cutting these materials is extremely toxic in the long term. You should never breath it or have it on your property.

CookieCows
01-22-2008, 05:23 PM
microfarmer... The tobacco and corn fields around here are planted in winter rye each year to put nitrogen in the soil when they plow it under each spring. You've got great advice. Thanks for the soil information. I love the pathways making automatic raised beds too.......... and we're rock lovers for borders anyway so it's good there is an abundance of rock in our area!

Deb

AllenF
01-23-2008, 01:26 AM
Is it still legal to use solvent based or creosote based preservatives in your area?

Up here we use a water based preservative that is not supposed to affect the soil, water supply or plants. Time will tell if there is truth to the claims.

Most of the clovers will fix nitrogen in the soil as well as add a 1' thick mulch and insulating ground cover. There are perennial varieties that do not need plowing up or replanting for 3 to 5 years. They also will have no negative impact on Bananas or any other plant that grows to over 3' tall quickly and clover will choke out most weeds. How the perennial clovers will do in zone 9/10, I don't know.

Allen

CookieCows
01-23-2008, 01:34 PM
[quote=AllenF;27537]Is it still legal to use solvent based or creosote based preservatives in your area?
I really don't know. I asked my husband and he didn't know either but now that you mention it, neither one of us can really remember the last time we saw railroad ties for sale anywhere. They used to be the big thing to landscape with I remember back in the 70's. The area of that we live in has an abundance of cedar trees (the red kind that smells so good) and like most people around here we've made use of our own trees that needed to be cleared anyway for things like fence posts. We have a raised strawberry bed that my husband used cedar that we had laying around but other than that, we use rock. I do remember growing up in Oregon in the 70's being taught not to use any chopped up fence posts in the wood stove or fire place as it could be treated with creosote.

I'm trying to get my mom to get outside and collect Douglas Fir seeds for me as that is one tree I miss the most about back home and want to start growing them out here. They make the best smelling Christmas trees I think!

Deb

mskitty38583
01-28-2008, 11:03 AM
this came out of the weekly newsletter from daves garden for raised beds and the room issue.


Wide Row Gardening

Rather than plant single straight rows in your garden, try planting wide rows. Several advantages are listed below along with some general instructions for creating wide rows. You'll get more yield in less space, and your garden will require less maintenance. You can make your rows as long as you need and have the space.


The advantages of using wide rows vs single row planting:
More space in your garden can and will be used to grow plants. You will see an increased production per square foot. You are creating and controlling a micro climate. You can add amendments selectively if necessary. If you are gardening in limited space this method allows you to get much more production per square foot than many other methods.


You save time because you have fewer weeds and properly monitored, less watering is necessary. You only need to mulch heavily between the rows. The shade provided by the growing plants eliminates the need for heavy mulching in the rows.
Harvesting is much easier, you will be able to pick more produce from a single location. You can control the height of your beds making picking much easier on your back. Many of the cool weather crops will produce longer with less bolt if inter planted among taller plants.


Companion planting is much easier. By inter planting root crops such as carrots, beets and radishes with other plants, you cultivate and aerate the remaining plants as you harvest the root crops.
Your plants stay cleaner and healthier. Heavy rain is less likely to splash mud on your growing vegetables.


Creating wide rows:


We have found 3 foot wide rows work best for us. It is easier to reach the middle of the row from either side.
Take extra time to properly till or spade the soil to a depth of six to 12 inches. Mix in ample amounts of compost, if available, processed manure, well-rotted manure and if the others are not available an all-purpose vegetable garden fertilizer, like 10-10-10. After mixing these soil additives with the existing soil, rake the area level to eliminate low spots where water night collect and keep the soil cool. By mounding the planting area you will find the soil dries out and warms up sooner and crops reach maturity at an earlier date.


Plan the layout of the garden on paper, before you start planting, keeping in mind that tall-growing crops should be to the north. Otherwise, they would shade lower-growing plants
This same type of wide-row vegetable gardening can be adapted for use in small areas such as flower and shrub beds. I have referred to this as intensified gardening, but it really is the same thing as wide-row gardening. Crops are planted very close together in various shapes to suit the particular space available.


Regardless of how you lay out the rows, here are some pointers to keep in mind:


First of all, when young seedling plants begin to develop be sure to thin them and space them properly. Otherwise, the crop will not grow and produce as it should. This is the hardest part if you're just starting to use this method. However, grit your teeth and thin with an iron toothed rake. Most of the tiny seedlings you rake are etabile. Great in salads or saluted with a bit of oil and a splash of vinaigrette. Yummy. The holes left from this process allow the remaining crop to thrive and grow. It leaves pockets where more air and water can get to the root systems of the remaining plants.


Other Tips and Tricks:


I use radishes as a row marker between plantings. Since they germinate and come up fast it acts like a marker so I can tell where one planting stops and another one begins.


As you can see in the pictures you can also use hoops or row covers over the beds, this will give you a "jump" on starting seed before your frost date. Just remember to monitor it closely, as on a warm day the area can get too hot. Just open the end of the row cover. You also prevent a lot pests from feasting on your new veggies until they get a good start.

There are also illustrations of some raised beds made of different types of materials. Those can be as diverse as materials avalible in your area. You do not have to use side boards if you do not want too. It's a matter of personal taste and budget. We don't use them, too cheap. And I like the additional flexibility of being able to move the beds around from year to year. But I am using a big Troy rototiller, if you don't have access then you would probably be better advised to use side boards of some type. Just keep good records of what your planting, so you can get good crop rotation. You have fewer diseases with this method, but good sanitation practices are always a good thing.


If you want to save space and time, plus make it easier to harvest vegetables, wide-row gardening may be right for you this year. Once you try it you'll never go back to single row again. :)

51st state
01-28-2008, 04:15 PM
loving the raised bed drawing, my only doubt is the cables being around the edge and heating a 4 foot wide bed.

I currently use a 75W = 1 x light bulb power electric cable in an enclosure inside my poly tunnel for my 'special ones'. I made an insulated base 6 foot x 3 foot with sides about 8" high all from sytrofoam insulation foil backed both sides. in this i put a load of chipped bark, i then sunk in my cable and more bark into which i sink the plant pots, works a treat, no probs with frost holding it to min of about 7C.

The next step for my polytunnel and the cheapest way of doing it is to use an air to water heat pump (its like a fridge in reverse) it pulls heat from the air concentrates it and then (via a thermal store) pumps it out into cables which I am going to sink into the excavated soil bed of the polytunnel.
will try and do a sketch of the plan shortly. the capital cost of the system is high, but, the running costs are lower than blow heaters and electric cables and the heat is where you want it in the soil.

Richard
01-28-2008, 05:20 PM
In San Diego, the ambient winter ground temperature 18" down is in the low 60's (F). The issue is to keep heat from draining out through the exposed raised walls and surface of the bed. Heavy mulch is almost sufficient on the top. Masonary and rock however are good conductors of heat. Filling the blocks with R30 instead of cement and then keeping the blocks from internally dropping below 50 F is the approach I'm considering. The cable runs down the center of the blocks in the channel normally used for rebar.

bencelest
01-28-2008, 06:37 PM
l

The next step for my polytunnel and the cheapest way of doing it is to use an air to water heat pump (its like a fridge in reverse) it pulls heat from the air concentrates it and then (via a thermal store) pumps it out into cables which I am going to sink into the excavated soil bed of the polytunnel.
will try and do a sketch of the plan shortly. the capital cost of the system is high, but, the running costs are lower than blow heaters and electric cables and the heat is where you want it in the soil.

51st state:
I am very much interested with what you are planning to do by using heat pump.
By just how much it will cost initially?

microfarmer
01-28-2008, 11:57 PM
loving the raised bed drawing, my only doubt is the cables being around the edge and heating a 4 foot wide bed.


The cable would be more efficient if it were not around the perimeter, but buried in the soil away from the side walls of your raised bed. You can find out how far the cable heat radiates by burying it and measuring at different distances away from the cable til you find the non-heated soil temperature. It could be 4", 6", or something else. You won't know til you bury it, turn it on, and measure it. Then you can space it away from the raised bed walls for better use of all the heat. Insulated beds will help hold the available heat in. Each run of cable can then be spaced to optimize radiated heat across the bed.

Sounds like the pipe heater would need to be encased in something that would keep it dry.

Richard
01-29-2008, 12:14 AM
The cable would be more efficient if it were not around the perimeter ...

But it's not on the perimeter.

In San Diego, the ambient winter ground temperature 18" down is in the low 60's (F). The issue is to keep heat from draining out through the exposed raised walls and surface of the bed. Heavy mulch is almost sufficient on the top. Masonary and rock however are good conductors of heat. Filling the blocks with R30 instead of cement and then keeping the blocks from internally dropping below 50 F is the approach I'm considering. The cable runs down the center of the blocks in the channel normally used for rebar.

51st state
01-29-2008, 03:13 PM
51st state:
I am very much interested with what you are planning to do by using heat pump.
By just how much it will cost initially?

Aah, well there's the problem, your looking at a cost of about $1000

BUT

the beauty of the system lies in it's running costs, for every 1kW of electric used to run the heat pump you will get about 4kW of useful heat out of it. You'll need to google around a bit. the thing to look for is heat pumps that are designed to for domestic hot water usage (i.e. feeding a stainless steel hot water tank)
If i get a chance at the weekend I'll put together a full schematic of how its done.

Richard
01-30-2008, 01:13 AM
It's true that heat pumps are very efficient compared to other methods. 2 decades ago I replaced an electrothermal system in the condo I owned with a heat pump and recouped costs in one year.

How many BTUs is the system you're considering?

bencelest
01-30-2008, 10:55 AM
I used to own a house that used heat pump for AC and heating of the house. I paid very minimal on the electricity.
Why I sold that house was the inserts in my closing stating that after 3 years my monthly payment would rise considerably which was hidden during the closing.
I did not know that until after 3 years.
So folks, read the fine print on contracts.

Richard
01-30-2008, 11:27 AM
...Wide Row Gardening ...


Front-tine rototillers are great for tight spaces, but a rear-tine machine is a lot easier on the operator. I own an 5.5 hp Sears model from the 60's and it still does a satisfactory job. But if you ever get a chance to borrow or rent one of these Barreto 1320 rototillers -- go for it! At 13 horsepower, it plows through most anything in no time.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7763

51st state
01-30-2008, 12:41 PM
It's true that heat pumps are very efficient compared to other methods. 2 decades ago I replaced an electrothermal system in the condo I owned with a heat pump and recouped costs in one year.

How many BTUs is the system you're considering?

well. unfortunately the flipping europeans have made us go all metric so its all in kW. have a look at this link
Heat Pump Manufacturer : V-COOL Electrical Holdings Co. Ltd (http://v-cool.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008826026471/pdtl/Heat-pump/1004173963/Heat-Pump.htm)

this company makes a couple of products that'll do the job. Now as the water to circulate in sub floor pipes is at a much lower temperature than that used for hot water, the unit will only need to operate at low power or intermittantly.

If time and finances allow, I'll put a system in this summer
looking around these stainless blow heaters either electric or gas fired cost a good few $100's . If I can come up with a cost effective alternative it might actually be marketable as a better alternative for greenhouses. certainly over the medium term the cost savings would be significant

Richard
01-30-2008, 01:36 PM
well. unfortunately the flipping europeans have made us go all metric so its all in kW. have a look at this link
Heat Pump Manufacturer : V-COOL Electrical Holdings Co. Ltd (http://v-cool.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008826026471/pdtl/Heat-pump/1004173963/Heat-Pump.htm)

That is an impressive unit! It's midrange is 12 kilowatt hours ~= 40,945 BTU which is probably about right for your application. In suburban southern California (except the immediate coast, high desert and mountains) a unit with a nominal operation at 2.5 kW and peak of 5 kW would be adequate. I don't need one, but I wonder if exchangers exist that operate on Butane -- a much more friendly and affordable fuel.

Richard
01-30-2008, 03:10 PM
Based on Kev's great input, I have updated this drawing to make it a bit more "worldly":

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7642

51st state
01-31-2008, 02:57 PM
looking good there richard

Once I've laid the wood floor in the hallway this weekend, the wife might give me a bit of peace!! in which case I'll sit and sketch up a schematic for a heat pump and/or solar panel fed subsoil heating system

microfarmer
02-02-2008, 09:37 PM
But it's not on the perimeter.

I was responding to 51st state's post where it seemed like it was around the perimeter...

loving the raised bed drawing, my only doubt is the cables being around the edge and heating a 4 foot wide bed.

Richard
07-20-2008, 05:59 PM
This weekend I completed a partially raised bed in my front yard. The masonary blocks have vertical and horizontal 1/4 rebar and have been filled with cement. If that seems like overkill, consider that just out of sight in the photos there is an Ent-like (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ent) Liquid Amber tree in my neighbor's front yard.

Also notice that there is no mortar between the block faces. This is to allow water seepage out the sides, in addition to the french drain in the bottom. The underlying soil is clay and cobblestone -- mostly gneiss.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11548 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11548)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11549 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11549)

microfarmer
07-20-2008, 11:05 PM
You're doing alot of work this year, Richard. I just got the ok to remove the 2 liquid ambers from the SO. I've been wanting to cut them down for 9 years now. They'll make nice firewood. :ha:

Can't wait to see pics when it's finished! :lurk:

Dean W.
07-20-2008, 11:42 PM
Way to go, Richard!

Bananaman88
07-21-2008, 06:37 AM
Richard,

I'm surprised you feel the need for heating cables in zone 9/10. Is it just for that added bit of insurance? Nice looking bed you have going there, though. I'm going to do pretty much that exact design with cinder-blocks to raise up my veggie garden this fall. Right now it has some of those faux lumber 2x4's as edging and it just isn't deep enough. The soil dries out way too quickly in the summer. Good luck with your project!

mskitty38583
07-21-2008, 08:56 AM
looking good richard! thats gonna be pretty when its planted. be sure to post pics.:woohoonaner:btw did you mortor them in or use rebar to secure them???

Richard
07-21-2008, 09:49 AM
Richard,

I'm surprised you feel the need for heating cables in zone 9/10. Is it just for that added bit of insurance? Nice looking bed you have going there, though. I'm going to do pretty much that exact design with cinder-blocks to raise up my veggie garden this fall. Right now it has some of those faux lumber 2x4's as edging and it just isn't deep enough. The soil dries out way too quickly in the summer. Good luck with your project!

Thanks! I'm not using heating cables in any of my beds so far, but it has been a matter of discussion for several folks here in colder zones.

... btw did you mortor them in or use rebar to secure them???

The vertical rebar is pounded 4" to 6" in the ground and the block cavities have been filled with mortar.

Richard
10-04-2008, 06:14 PM
I hope you're not like me -- start a project with several other projects already going and take a year to complete it! So I finally completed the raised planter bed I started in January, getting the irrigation all connected and so forth.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=13736 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo= 13736)

In the center is Chilean Guava, purchased at the "Green Scene South" a few months ago from Ben Poirer. It's only about 6 inches high, having been started from seed in the early spring. To the left are two Catmints, and in front-center are two dwarf orange Bougainvilleas. I'm hoping that when they grow out the planter wall will be mostly obscured. The "L" shaped area around the back right is unplanted. I'm considering some California natives such as Ceanothus otayensis and maybe a Serviceberry.

CookieCows
10-04-2008, 08:14 PM
What a nice planter! I love how you take the time to install the irrigation to everything. That makes such a difference in enjoyment and overall plant health. Now you can check one more project off your list!

We are much worse than you with incomplete projects!

Deb

millermackenzie
10-04-2008, 08:47 PM
Nice block bed~!

Mine is below, commerical though.

Richard
01-21-2010, 06:00 PM
I heard that Emily has great weather for gardening right now and has some pictures to show us!

SoBe Musa
01-21-2010, 07:25 PM
Here some pics of my vegetables garden that we planted Saturday Jan 16 2010.
This will be our second attempt to garden, been 2009 the first time.
It was full of all the mistakes of the first time :too many too together, under watering ,overwatering ,pest etc.
But we are here again for a second round and now hoping for all the help and knowledge of everybody here. .
Thanks.
1Bed
German Queen tomatoes (2)
BHN tomatoes (1)
Boston lettuce (8)
Tachiba Eggplant (1)
Black Beauty (1)

2Bed
Big Beef tomatoes (3)
Habanero Peppers (1)
White onions
Red onions

3Bed
BeefSteak tomatoes (1)
Pumpkin
Watermelon

http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/Garden2010PlantsJan212010021.jpg
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/GardenJan162010049.jpg
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/GardenJan162010054.jpg
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/GardenJan162010056.jpg
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/GardenJan162010064.jpg

Here some from last year Feb/2009
I dint’ used the dripping hoses this year.

http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/GARDENFEB272009017.jpg
July 20009
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/GardenJULY2009VARIOS259.jpg
July 2009
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/GardenJULY2009VARIOS157.jpg

SoBe Musa
02-06-2010, 02:07 PM
Here’s an update : FeB/06/2010
BED 1
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/VARIOSJANFEB2010077.jpg
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/VARIOSJANFEB2010075.jpg
BED 2
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/VARIOSJANFEB2010064.jpg
BED 3
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/VARIOSJANFEB2010060.jpg

Dalmatiansoap
02-18-2010, 12:41 PM
OK, I need an advice on this one. Im preparing one raised bed for naners primarly. It is 4,5 m (13,5ft) long and 0,5m (20 inch) wide. How many plants can I fit in there? I ll go there with dwarfs spicies becouse it is not so shaltered from the winds?
:woohoonaner:

Richard
02-18-2010, 01:29 PM
A half meter is a little too narrow, but worth a try with some dwarfs. I would plant 3: one in the center and the other two in the center of the left and right half.

Dalmatiansoap
02-18-2010, 01:36 PM
Can I take a Raja puri in this case as dwarf plant?

SoBe Musa
02-28-2010, 01:06 PM
Update for FEB/28/2010
1Bed
German Queen tomatoes (2) Blooming
BHN tomatoes (1) Blooming
Boston lettuce (8)
Tachiba Eggplant (1) Blooming
Black Beauty (1) Blooming

2Bed
Big Beef tomatoes (3) Blooming
Habanero Peppers (1)
White onions Blooming
Red onions Blooming

3Bed
BeefSteak tomatoes (1)
Pumpkin
Watermelon

is getting crowded
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_8459.jpg
German Queen tomatoes
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_8441.jpg
Tachiba Eggplant
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_8445.jpg

Black Beauty Eggplant
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_8446.jpg
Big Beef tomatoes
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_8451.jpg
Boston lettuce are getting ready!
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_8442.jpg

SoBe Musa
03-17-2010, 01:25 PM
Harvest Romaine lettuce ( Boston Lettuce wrongly tag.)
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_8701.jpg
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_8696.jpg
after
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_8717.jpg
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_8718.jpg

sbl
03-17-2010, 01:53 PM
Emily, Nice garden--You are way ahead of us here in NW FL, I have not even planted tomatoes outside yet--my eggplants are only about a inch tall. Our winter was so cold, even broccoli and lettuce did not really grow until the last few weeks, but in the last few weeks all of my winter garden plants have taken off.

Dean W.
03-17-2010, 02:13 PM
Nice job, I just started planting my tomatoes and peppers.

SoBe Musa
04-05-2010, 01:02 AM
Update for April/004/2010
1Bed
German Queen tomatoes (2) So far very Poor, only one tomato.
BHN tomatoes (1) Wow!what a surprise a very small plant, strong productor of big and beautiful tomatoes.
Tachiba Eggplant (1) nice
Black Beauty (1) Blooming

2Bed
Big Beef tomatoes (3) Great production...I'm a happy camper..
Habanero Peppers (1) none
White onions Blooming keep growing.
Red onions Blooming- keep growing.

3Bed
BeefSteak tomatoes (1)nice.
Pumpkin is growing.
Watermelon moved to a new location

German Queen
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_0253.jpg
BHN tomatoes
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_0181.jpg
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_0259.jpg
Black Beauty Eggplant
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_0255.jpg
Tachiba Eggplant
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_0256.jpg
BeefSteak tomatoes Pumpkin
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_0268.jpg
new add ons: iceberg lettuce and cucumber ( first time)
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_0270.jpg
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_0272.jpg
Onion Bloom
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_0280.jpg

Richard
04-05-2010, 07:20 PM
Emily, looking good!

SoBe Musa
04-17-2010, 11:51 AM
Harvest Time!
"Part of the secret of success in life is to eat what you like and let the food fight it out inside. " ~Mark Twain

http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_0727.jpg

SoBe Musa
04-30-2010, 10:39 AM
Harvest White onions and Red onions.
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz77/SoBe_Musa/IMG_0141.jpg

Nicolas Naranja
04-30-2010, 02:46 PM
How the perennial clovers will do in zone 9/10, I don't know.

Allen


I a fairly warm area you could use perennial peanut (Arachis perenne) it's almost like a warm weather alfalfa that some of the organic citrus producers are using here in Florida.

Richard
05-01-2010, 12:38 AM
The perennial red clover works great in zone 9/10 areas of southern California.