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current river banana
01-14-2008, 11:06 PM
I have a couple of Musa Ice Creams. I bought them at about 12 inches soil to top. They never grew very fast even though the starter pots next to them did great. The tips and the edges of the new leaves got this black edge that ended in death of the leave. I finally cut the stem off about 3 inches from the soil. Have a new leaf coming up but it looks like black death again. Any Ideas?

austinl01
01-14-2008, 11:08 PM
How much have you been fertilizing them? I had a similar problem two years ago with my musa basjoos. I was applying way too much fertilizer. This is just a thought.

current river banana
01-14-2008, 11:12 PM
Not a lot. Then when that didn't work maybe a lot. But, the plants next to this one, same species got the same treatment. I suspect genetics, hear a lot about tissue cultures that don't do well. I wonder if I have one and it is causing a problem.

bepah
01-14-2008, 11:13 PM
I have 3 Java blues....

I continually make sure there is fresh compost 3 times a year as a mulch. They should grow prety well the next coming year if you make sure they get rgulat but not over excessive water, keep the water at the roots and off the leaves if possible to kee pany fungus from kiloing your leaves, and watch them grow once the temps get over 85 f degrees (and under 95)


I have a couple of Musa Ice Creams. I bought them at about 12 inches soil to top. They never grew very fast even though the starter pots next to them did great. The tips and the edges of the new leaves got this black edge that ended in death of the leave. I finally cut the stem off about 3 inches from the soil. Have a new leaf coming up but it looks like black death again. Any Ideas?

inkcube
01-14-2008, 11:35 PM
i would start giving them a weak, 50%, 20-20-20 fertilizer or any other balanced formula and make note if things improve. my first thought is calcium deficiency since it is afflicting the new leaves and starting at the leaf margin, in this case the tip. tissue culture should not be the cause, i raise thousand's of tc plants yearly and plant out into the field with no problems.

also when was the last time you repotted and is it a good draining mix? old soil that has gone acid or high in dissolved salts can also cause problems.

it would be interesting to see a photo, i have not seen symptoms in banana like you are describing.

current river banana
01-14-2008, 11:41 PM
I repotted when I cut the diseased looking tissue off. Calcium is an interesting comment may need to consider it. Soil is miracle grow / peat moss mixture. I'll try to get som pics post cutting. Don't have any pics before I cut stem. Thanks for your interest.

inkcube
01-14-2008, 11:48 PM
calcium is an immobile element in plant nutrition, the young leaves can't scavenge it from older leaves as is the case with nitrogen. the problem with young banana leaves is that they develop inside the pseudostem and by the time the emerge any deficiency or toxicity damage has already occurred.

i use the same soil but with extra perlite. did you buy them online? i ask this wondering if they may have gotten chilled during shipping. other nutrients can cause leaf tip and margin symptoms but the only time i have seen black on any young leaf the culprit has usually been calcium or boron.

current river banana
01-15-2008, 12:12 AM
Yes, I did buy them online. As I was on my way to get another beer, I mixed some of our Sulcata Tourtises' calcium with a drink of water and fed the Musa Ice cream. I wouldn't think shipping / temperature problems would be the cause as the first one lingered for two months this one is now 7 months old. Produces just enough leaf to stay alive, but can't prosper. Eventually it will perish. What about a fungus?

Tropicallvr
01-15-2008, 10:49 AM
Maybe you did get some sort of fungus from the soil, or it came with the plant.

current river banana
01-15-2008, 12:58 PM
Here are some pictures of Black Death.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1337

bencelest
01-15-2008, 01:13 PM
Someone posted a picture like that and the problem was that the center of the corm was rotted. The same thing happened to one of my bananas.
What I did was dig it up and tried to cut all the rotted corms and planted the good corms back. I let it dry first and did not water for many days.

inkcube
01-15-2008, 01:31 PM
after seeing the photos it is not nutritional but bacterial or fungal. i sent you a pm about it.

chong
01-15-2008, 05:02 PM
Is that fresh wood chips over your potting soil? It'd better if you used bark, or at least weather wood chips. Fresh wood chips may leach the soil of Nitrogen. Not to mention that the soaking of fresh wood causes the water to be mixed with the chemicals in the wood that turn into "liquor". Years ago, logging companies kept piles of timber floating on the south end of Lake Washington. Depending on how long they were there, the waters surrounding the timber would turn brown like strong coffee, and there was vitually no vegetation in the immediate area of the water. And the odor could be overpowering at times.

I don't know if this would contribute you situation, but if fresh wood chips were used on orchids, the orchids wouldn't survive.

inkcube
01-15-2008, 06:18 PM
commercial orchid bark will also leach the N from the soil. the bacteria that breakdown bark utilize the N, that's why orchid fertilizers are so high in N. the bark he is using looks like the red cypress mulch, they dye it to get the red.

current river banana
01-15-2008, 08:01 PM
The mulch is either dyed Cypress or Oak and not real fresh. I doubt it is a leaching of N as the others with the same treatment have done fine. I suspect Inkcube's theory on bacteria is correct as the decay is so uniform on both leaves and the stem. From raising pumpkins I know bacteria is a tough battle, I may try some human or animal antibiotics as this approach has seen limited success in the pumpkin patches around USA. Obviously this is personal now and I'll spend what I have to to beat the beast!

chong
01-15-2008, 08:04 PM
commercial orchid bark will also leach the N from the soil. the bacteria that breakdown bark utilize the N, that's why orchid fertilizers are so high in N. the bark he is using looks like the red cypress mulch, they dye it to get the red.

Years ago, when I was raising orchids, the lady that used to own the original Baker and Chantry Orchids Nursery used to tell us to use orchid bark(fir) but to first soak it in water for at least 12 hours. And as much as 48 hours. The reason for this was so that the bark, that has cambium layer attached to it, will precipitate to the bottom of the container. The pure bark would stay afloat. The ones with the cambium layer contain materials that are harmful to the orchid, we were told.

This ones that float would be the ideal medium. If despite the soaking, the pure bark will continue to aggressively leach Nitrogen, this is not good news to me because I still use bark.

And we were told never, never to use bark mulch because not only do they contain the cambium layer, but they also contain a lot of wood chips. As an engineer, I have a greater appreciation for this definition. And as I understand it, it is the fact that the decaying wood that atracts the Nitrogen as it is breaking down. In reviewing the photos by Current River, I confirmed my earlier observation that they were wood chips. And though there may be a mixture of bark therein, I could not distinguish them. Unfortunately, the industry allows the suppliers to call the material "bark" even though it is mostly wood.

My point is that pure bark will hardly decompose long after wood chips will have done so. Which translates to me that orchid bark has a less attraction for Nitrogen than wood chips, and that Current River would be better off using orchid bark for mulch.

Chemistry is not my line. But I have observed fresh wood that has been sitting in water for weeks will turn the water into some kind of "liquor". When this liquid is disposed of over grassy area, the grass in contact with the liquid will wilt and/or turn yellow, or die. I don't think pure bark will have that effect.

inkcube
01-15-2008, 09:35 PM
Years ago, when I was raising orchids, the lady that used to own the original Baker and Chantry Orchids Nursery used to tell us to use orchid bark(fir) but to first soak it in water for at least 12 hours. And as much as 48 hours. The reason for this was so that the bark, that has cambium layer attached to it, will precipitate to the bottom of the container. The pure bark would stay afloat. The ones with the cambium layer contain materials that are harmful to the orchid, we were told.

she was wrong, cambium is present throughout bark in various forms; vascular cambium, cork cambium - the cambium layers will not separate from soaking. cambium is not easily separated by water. the main reason to soak is to waterlog the bark to ease the stress of repotting plus it is difficult to get the bark fully wet when potted dry, many commercial mixes will add a surfactant to help the waterlogging process. mulch bark is often treated with chemicals that orchids are sensitive to plus the bark used in some mulches is not fir and can be toxic to orchids. bark is a natural potting substrate for any orchid that is an epiphyte; it provides good drainage, air circulation, and won't retain salts to the same extent that soil & moss do.

This ones that float would be the ideal medium. If despite the soaking, the pure bark will continue to aggressively leach Nitrogen, this is not good news to me because I still use bark.

fir bark is pure bark. there are numerous studies showing that bacteria on the bark used in orchid potting is responsible for N breakdown consumption and bark breakdown.

Chemistry is not my line. But I have observed fresh wood that has been sitting in water for weeks will turn the water into some kind of "liquor". When this liquid is disposed of over grassy area, the grass in contact with the liquid will wilt and/or turn yellow, or die. I don't think pure bark will have that effect.

what you are seeing here is the tannins & phenolics leaching out of the wood and both can be toxic

NanaNut2
01-15-2008, 09:35 PM
[/U]Years ago, logging companies kept piles of timber floating on the south end of Lake Washington. Depending on how long they were there, the waters surrounding the timber would turn brown like strong coffee, and there was vitually no vegetation in the immediate area of the water. And the odor could be overpowering at times.

I don't know if this would contribute you situation, but if fresh wood chips were used on orchids, the orchids wouldn't survive.


Hope you don't mind if I jump in. I remember that smell, came from the south or north, depending on which way the wind blew. I was always told it was the pulp mills north and south of us. But who knew it was the floating logs? In my dealings with fish and aquariums, wood tends to darken the water with a substance called tannin. You can buy a product called 'blackwater extract' at aquarium shops which mimics conditions some South American fish need. It also lowers the ph. One ingredient in it is peat.

You could always check the ph of the soil to see if you have a problem with the bark you're using. Tannins play havoc with proteins according to sources I read. If ph is a problem either way (too high or low), perhaps adjusting the amount of peat that you use would also help. But I'm not an expert, just a Newbie.
NanaNut2

chong
01-15-2008, 10:38 PM
she was wrong, cambium is present throughout bark in various forms; vascular cambium, cork cambium - the cambium layers will not separate from soaking. cambium is not easily separated by water. the main reason to soak is to waterlog the bark to ease the stress of repotting plus it is difficult to get the bark fully wet when potted dry, many commercial mixes will add a surfactant to help the waterlogging process. mulch bark is often treated with chemicals that orchids are sensitive to plus the bark used in some mulches is not fir and can be toxic to orchids. bark is a natural potting substrate for any orchid that is an epiphyte; it provides good drainage, air circulation, and won't retain salts to the same extent that soil & moss do.

You may have misread the intent for soaking. It was not to separate the cambium from the bark. Rather, it is to separate the bark with cambium layer attached to it, from bark with no cambium layer attach to it. Waterlogged, the one with the cambium layer will sink. The pure bark will stay afloat. For this intent, she was correct, at least from my experience. She was concerned about the "liquor" (which you call tannins and phenolics) and its effects on the plants. Even though it was expensive (I could only net 40% to 60% pure bark), I wanted to do it because I got very favorable results compared to not doing it.


fir bark is pure bark. there are numerous studies showing that bacteria on the bark used in orchid potting is responsible for N breakdown consumption and bark breakdown.

I can accept that explanation. But the fir bark, as sold in nurseries or orchid stores, is not pure bark. Some of them even contain wood in addition to the cambium layer. The process for removing the bark from the tree is different for those intended for orchid culture than those for other applications, e.g., mulch, etc. Although hydraulic pressure is used for orchid bark, nevertheless, a good amount of cambium layer remains attached to the bark. And since the wood and cambium layer possibly have more retained sugar than the bark, I would submit that bacteria, and mold, will propagate faster in it. Now, I like to emphasize that I'm making a distinction between the wood, cambium layer, and bark.

Isn't this how they make wood alcohol?


what you are seeing here is the tannins & phenolics leaching out of the wood and both can be toxic

Where there are less of, or at least not readily expelled as from wood, from pure bark. If these are toxic, how do you think they will affect the tender roots of the banana that's just been pulled out from its home soil, transported in various weather conditions, subjected to impact in transit, then replanted in a different soil, and is struggling to form new roots?

chong
01-15-2008, 10:45 PM
Hope you don't mind if I jump in. I remember that smell, came from the south or north, depending on which way the wind blew. I was always told it was the pulp mills north and south of us. But who knew it was the floating logs? . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . .
NanaNut2

Come on in! The more the merrier. You must live in the Newcastle - Kennydale area. Yes, that's where most of the logs were headed. Then there came a time when they'd tow them across Lake Washington to the north end to the Bothell area, with the logs trailing like a long train. I guess they still have a few over there. Logs, that is.

Tropicallvr
01-15-2008, 10:56 PM
I see in one of your pic's that is has some white on the tip of the banana, and some white patches on the chips too. Maybe you should call around and try to find some fungicides locally, and trim your plant down with a sterile knife, and wash away the soil, then do a fungicide dip or wash. Other wise I'd start over with a new batch of bananas and throw that dirt far away, and don't buy the same soil or order from same company again just to make sure. (Maybe don't use chips again either, rocks may be a good substitute for them)

NanaNut2
01-15-2008, 11:36 PM
You must live in the Newcastle - Kennydale area.

I grew up in Bellevue, Lake Heights area, but you were very close in nailing it.
NanaNut2

Zacarias
05-01-2008, 01:35 AM
Question on the black death. I lost two small purchased bananas a while back and it had to be from rot. I took the corms out of the pot...saw that there was white roots. Removed the rotten roots that I could find, soaked these in a neem oil solution (as an antifungal) and put them in smaller pots.

One corm had a eye when I first bought it. On the tip began the black...so when I cut the black off....the tips gets black again. Is that ok or does that automatically mean death. I mean it is possible that a banana corm over come some mild blackness if it's not too bad. It's just if I keep cutting, I will start cutting the corm.

I am just letting them relax in the new pots...not sure how much to water. I would love to not water them but they're on Phoenix, AZ balcony with shade and dappled sunlight occasionally.

Zach

jpfloors
05-01-2008, 06:21 AM
Question on the black death. I lost two small purchased bananas a while back and it had to be from rot. I took the corms out of the pot...saw that there was white roots. Removed the rotten roots that I could find, soaked these in a neem oil solution (as an antifungal) and put them in smaller pots.

One corm had a eye when I first bought it. On the tip began the black...so when I cut the black off....the tips gets black again. Is that ok or does that automatically mean death. I mean it is possible that a banana corm over come some mild blackness if it's not too bad. It's just if I keep cutting, I will start cutting the corm.

I am just letting them relax in the new pots...not sure how much to water. I would love to not water them but they're on Phoenix, AZ balcony with shade and dappled sunlight occasionally.

Zach

Did you take a picture of the rhizome and roots? That would really help a lot to answer this question (and most questions you have on here).

As long as the main rhizome is still alive and able to root or has new roots, it should come back, remember it might take a few months! And if the main plant dies, the eye will pup up very fast, so don't give up on it. From my experience you should always leave the eye alone!!!!!! But if you took a little off it might not effect it. It will turn black as that tissue wasn't ready to be exposed. I have had my own accidents and exploritory learning and actually the eyes still pupped later! I've even cut some off before planting (not recommended) and they grow up as well!!!!

Do you have a picture? The pots you have them in might be too small. I don't think you could have ones that are too big, but clay pots wouldn't be good at all. I wouldn't cut off the top of the corm for about 2-3 months since you received and planted it! If nothing grows within that amount of time, go ahead and take an inch or two off, disect that, and explore to see what's going on. Usually at that point they start to shoot up, they just needed help getting past that dead tissue on top. I'm still pretty new myself to bananas and LOVE "exploritory surgery" LOL but at the same time you have to also learn patients! Bananas are hard to kill, and if the main plant doesn't live, usually they will put off offspring to replace them!

It's also good to layer manure under the corm and some near the top of your pots when you receive and plant them. I've had GREAT luck at recovering new corms fast with this method! I've yet to lose one plant so keep your chin up, be patient, and good luck!

sandy0225
05-01-2008, 06:39 AM
I usually try to repot them in fresh potting soil with plenty of perlite in it, (even styrofoam peanuts if they're the kind that doesn't biodegrade will increase air spaces)when they start that. It seems to me that usually when it happens in my greenhouse, they've been overwatered when they are too cool/dark weather to be growing actively-- and in soil that is really pressed down with little air space. I don't like your soil mix, it holds too much water for winter/cool weather potting.
Also in case it's fungal/bacterial--Why don't you dip them briefly in a bleach/water solution as you repot them? I'd use physan 20 here, but most people don't have it. So you could use like 1 part bleach to 10 parts water, dunk them in, then take them out and lay them in the kitchen sink, etc. Leave them there wet with the bleach water for five minutes for it to work, then rinse them off real good in clear water to get all the bleach off, and repot them in the new soil. And either disinfect those pots by soaking them in the bleach water for 10 minutes, or toss them and use new ones when you repot. Don't even reuse the tags unless you soak them first, and maybe even spritz a little bit of it where the plants were sitting or put them somewhere else temporarily until you clean up that area. Sanitation can be very helpful with fungus/bacterial infections.
Good luck!

sandy0225
05-01-2008, 07:05 AM
that one in the picture looks like a goner though to me, the one that looks like a stick with a black end. It's pretty short and pretty small to have much energy to fight it. You can still try though.
I usually see that on zebrinas and sxgn bananas when it's been real cold because my heater in the greenhouse can only keep it to about 45 when it's below zero and windy. They are a little touchier about water than the bordelons, ice creams, and basjoo.
And then if I have just watered them when that happens, watch out.

Zacarias
05-01-2008, 05:58 PM
Actually Sandy, I can't even see current river banana's soil, just the mulch on top. jpfloors, thanks for the tips....I am not giving up hope on these corms...They're 90 degree weather but total shade...I will water VERY sparingly.

jpfloors
05-01-2008, 06:06 PM
In total shade? Were these grown in complete shade before? Are they TC's? How long have you had them Zach? They might be having a lack of sun... you should only acclimate them for a week or two them put them into the sun! Try putting them into the sun now and water them every other day if it's been more than two weeks! Even if the main corm dies, it will probably pup!

Zacarias
05-01-2008, 06:16 PM
Really JP, I should move them? Where there's nothing really about grown just the excuse for an eye. I've read other places that stressed bananas should be protected from sun, especially Phx sun. I hear different things, but as I experience things I will learn more...sometimes (or always) I'm so impatient. Thanks again!

Zach

current river banana
05-01-2008, 06:21 PM
The bananas I planted that originated this thread were planted in straight Miracle Grow soil. I have not had any problems before with this soil. I have since terminated the two bananas in the picture and potted two more of an unknown variety (sold as a "commercial producer" banana). One is fine, one is struggling.

jpfloors
05-02-2008, 12:06 AM
Really JP, I should move them? Where there's nothing really about grown just the excuse for an eye. I've read other places that stressed bananas should be protected from sun, especially Phx sun. I hear different things, but as I experience things I will learn more...sometimes (or always) I'm so impatient. Thanks again!

Zach

That's one thing about gardening.... it's all trial and error! I'm not very familiar with the climate out in AZ (hope that's the right abreviation LOL), but that would be one of the first things I would try. Bananas do need the direct light to photosynthisize regardless if they're grown on the equator or in Canada; unless you're growing a low light banana, for example Itinerans, which requires shade (not too many species are like this). Look at it this way, you've tried everything else, what would it hurt to try?

If you only have the eye left on the rhizome, then it'll be under the ground anyways until it's ready to pop it's little head out and flourish! Depending on the size, I'd pot it up into a pot twice the size of the rhizome or bigger and put it out into full sun. Absolutely I'd put the manure under the rhizome, some a little over the roots when you put it into the pot, some good drainage soil, another layer about 1" thick of manure at the top and then top it off with one more 1" of soil. Give it a good watering every other day as the soil will dry out quickly if it's that hot there. I've seen rhizomes with nothing more than eyes pop out pups within weeks this way! Just be sure the soil is very good. Compost would be best!

Zacarias
05-02-2008, 01:14 AM
Thanks JPfloors, I will keep you posted. Oh and my three others that I got recently that were 3 in tall (gasps) are putting out new leaves. They're still tiny so I'm prepared for them to all die a horrible death at any minute but I'll try to be optimistic :)

Zach

jpfloors
05-02-2008, 06:54 AM
Thanks JPfloors, I will keep you posted. Oh and my three others that I got recently that were 3 in tall (gasps) are putting out new leaves. They're still tiny so I'm prepared for them to all die a horrible death at any minute but I'll try to be optimistic :)

Zach

3" Tall? Are they TC's that you just received? How long ago did you receive them? If you just got them, keep them in shade for a week and then slowly move them into a spot to where each day they receive more and more morning sun until they're in full sun. Did you get these from Sandy? Her TC's have all done wonderful for me.

mskitty38583
05-02-2008, 08:48 AM
zach: dont give up on your nanas. they may suprise you. they are one of the most sutbborn plants i have ever know. lol. i have a musa ornate lavander that i thought was a gonner. i even posted it under what potted lived and died thread...i was out planting 2 dc( thanks josh and jarred) and happened to look down into this brown stalk that was once a p-stem..and there in the middle of this ugly thing was the pretties little green leaf i have ever seen. i think its the most beautiful leaf in the whole world. when you think its dead look again and have a little faith. and when you see green in the midst of nasty,yucky stuff, it will make your entire day. the moral of the story...if the nanas not happy, dig it up and move it. you wont hurt it. you will actually make it happy.i have had to dig up regular trees in my yard and move them cause they wernt happy. its all trial and error. i think thats half the fun of growing things. if they are still not happy, change the soil( the more drainage the better, use organic compost with cow poop( they sell it at walleyworld for 1.37 a bag.) you might feel silly moving a nana tree around your yard or where ever your nana lives..but i would rather look silly then not have it happy. jmo.

Zacarias
05-02-2008, 09:07 PM
JPfloors, yeah were that tall, but they are growing amazingly! No I did not get these from Sandy. I would have thought 3in" is too small to sell and much less ship. I'll get bigger next time.

MsKitty, I just have a balcony in an apt right now but when I move back to WA next year, I will have a yard like I used to (miss those days). I really hate container gardening and the spider mites in Phoenix are the worst. They thrive in dry, hot locations so here I am! LOL

Zach