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mskitty38583
01-07-2008, 12:03 AM
im gonna try some basjoo outside this spring. i need to know from yall nana gurus how far should they be planted apart? i have an area that im fixing to remove all plants from( yeah, 2 days of playing in the dirt, i love playing in the dirt) and they are going in there. it is about 8-10 ft long and about 4-6 ft. wide. i have a friend whos land lord has plenty of composted horse and cow poop :2780: :2780: that i can put in there, along with some composted veggie scraps that i have. im also gonna try and put in a wind break on the other side of the fence. this is my first time attemp of nanas outside in the spring so any info would be appriciated. i was wondering if it was big enough for 2 basjoo and maybe one hcm. let me know what yall think. it will be the first house in this county with nana trees in the yard. it will be beautiful!!

klemmthamm
01-07-2008, 01:12 AM
I don't know of what the "standard" answer may be but I try to give mine 4 feet between each other on the basjoos... but mine seem to run a bit more than what I expected :exercise: (sometimes pushing pups over 2 feet away).

Really it would be personal preference... get them to a distance where they look good and if they start crowding when they get bigger you could always thin the mats a bit and use the pups to start ya a new mat elswhere in the yard. :D

EDIT: OK one of my partners in crime just advised me that my measurement is jacked up... he said 8 feet but I still say 4 feet is cool cause I like the "oh-my-god-I-need-a-freakin-machete-to-get-through-my-yard" look.... but like I said looks will have a whole lot to do with how far apart you get them....

klemmthamm
01-07-2008, 01:20 AM
Oh and while I don't have a HCM I do have SDC and the pups tend to stay real close to their point of origin.

Post pics when you get all of 'em planted.... sounds like it'll be a nice little bed of plants... are you going to use any other plants in near the basjoos/HCM?

mskitty38583
01-07-2008, 08:18 AM
i do like the get out the machette look, i do want to plant some under plantings and i was thinking about a few of the odora the i got from jarred. i will just have to use more mulch then i intended. on the other side of the fence i have to have a wind break, so i was thinking a leland cypress or two, there are some cedars in the jungle. this is only one of 2 areas i want to do. the other is gonna cost more money. retaining wall built, 2 trees ( gulp) removed and a fence row put up. backfilled with gravel, cow poop hauled in and top soil mixed with mulch..so i thought id start on the little one first. thanks for the advise.:bananarow:

bencelest
01-07-2008, 10:06 AM
I bought a pergola at Costco that is measured 12' x 14' .I installed the post and raised the height to 12 feet. I will use it to plant my dwarf bananas and some other delicate plants. I plan to protect my plants from the wind and cold in winter time by putting clear plastics on top and sides. My California gold 4 feet and a matured ready to bloom dwarf Brazilian 6 ft are already planted on it. I will also add a lot of steer manure and sand and compost and it will be a raised bed.
I will not pay particular attention as to the space in between plants. I will plant my plants as long as there are space in between because of limited space. this is just an experiment. I figured the plants will be better off to plant on the ground than on a pot.
So if they grow bigger, what the heck I can dig them off and transplant them somewhere else. Or leave the mother plant and dig the pups.

mskitty38583
01-07-2008, 11:42 AM
i like the idea of pack in the plants. if they get bigger i can move some. thats great. thanks for the idea.:2720:

inkcube
01-07-2008, 12:02 PM
on a plantation spacing will effect fruit density plus you need to consider space for followers (offshoots), usually 4 followers. we planted Gros Michel about 12 ft apart (keep in mind the followers) and Gros Michel is roughly the height of basjoo. we now use a double row system spacing cavendish types about 5-6.5 ft (rows are 10-12 ft apart).

i know this is more info than you asked for but these might be things you want to consider; do you want to try and get fruit (density effects plant height & thus fruiting), plus you need to think about the followers, how thick do you want your mat to get.

since i don't care if my basjoos fruit i space about 4-6 ft.

Randy4ut
01-07-2008, 12:21 PM
Three years ago when I first planted my basjoo, I had three one gallon containers and planted them roughly 4 feet apart. They have pretty much filled in the spaces and I have added MANY other understory plants. I was going more for the "dense" look and think I finally arrived at that look last summer. After this past weeks temps, all my basjoo's pstems were badly damaged and are currently collapsing. I guess they will have to start at ground level this spring. I had pstems ranging in height from a couple of feet to around 10-12'. Was hoping to start with about 4' of pstem at least this coming spring. OH, WELL!!!!

Randy4ut
01-07-2008, 12:50 PM
MsKitty,
Here is what you can expect after a few short years of diligent watering and good soil. This clump is from (2) 1gallon containers of basjoo....
The first pic is what they started out like this past spring...(March '07)

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n225/randy4ut/Nanners%202007/100_1621.jpg

(May '07)

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n225/randy4ut/Nanners%202007/100_1793.jpg

(September '07)

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n225/randy4ut/Nanners%202007/100_2274.jpg

After being clipped for winter (November '07)

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n225/randy4ut/Nanners%202007/100_2337.jpg

Needless to say, they are a blast to grow in our neck of the woods!!!
BTW, don't know if you noticed or not, but my Butia grew rather well this past summer also... Look at the first pic, behind the pitiful nanners and then look at the last pic of it on the other side of me!!! More than doubled in size!!!

CookieCows
01-07-2008, 01:29 PM
Beautiful around the pool! I'm continually amazed at how fast growing these bananas and other tropical plants are when looking at everyones photos. I can't wait for spring. My plan is to keep mine in pots this year as we're still in the process of finishing the pool. Did you put your pool in yourself?

Randy4ut
01-07-2008, 02:04 PM
Deb,
We moved into the house in the spring of '03 and the pool was a big selling point for us. We have 5 daughters and we wanted to have something that they could have to enjoy with friends and we could kinda keep an eye on them... LOL Anyway, there was no landscaping at all around the pool and this is why I got into palms, nanners, and other tropical/subtropicals. It has been the MOST fun 3 years of gardening for me in my life!!!! Palms are still my favorite, but bananas are such quick gratification and I am getting more and more interested in these amazing plants!!!!

Whatever
01-07-2008, 04:13 PM
User with 902 posts ask's how far apart to plant bananas. http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4069/suicidecj3.gif

mskitty38583
01-07-2008, 05:16 PM
i may have 902- well now its 903 post however there is nothing in the archives about first time plantings outside and the spacing need..duh. lol. randy i love your yard. and no i didnt take into consideration for the fruiting of the nanas.hummmm. ok 4 foot sounds good to me. that gives enough room for babies. i dug up 8 cannas and about 125 iris just in one little 4 ft. section. dug up 14 day lilies and everything was moved to 3 different locations. still have 2 clumps of iris, 1 clump of daffies, 1 odd looking bush, and about 100-120 glad bulbs to move. good gracious im tired. it was 70-72 * f today. to nice of a day to stay inside. even dug out the shorts. after everything is moved then i can bring in the compost and start digging it into the ground. day 1 down,1 day to go. yahoo. and i really appriciate all the help yall have been. even the wise cracks. god you got to love people.:blueskirtnaner: :blueskirtnaner:

Randy4ut
01-07-2008, 05:49 PM
User with 902 posts ask's how far apart to plant bananas. http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4069/suicidecj3.gif

And your point!?!?!

the flying dutchman
01-07-2008, 08:08 PM
User with 902 posts ask's how far apart to plant bananas. http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4069/suicidecj3.gif

It is not user but member, i think this an interesting thread.

I don't see your point either.

Ron

microfarmer
01-08-2008, 11:03 PM
Since most of us are not commercial growers, we don't have to necessarily adhere to the commercial growers guidelines. The commercial plant spacings are carefully calculated for close to maximum density while still giving close to maximum fruit production.

Example: If you space so you can put in just one more row of plants, the closer spacing could introduce more shade reducing fruit production on the whole to below the levels with one less row of plants. Space too wide and you 'waste' sunlight on the open ground. Throw in machinery widths and you come up with a 'set' spacing for commercial crops.


Most home gardeners would like to get maximum fruit production, but just getting a flower and fruit to ripen without a greenhouse is challenging below zones 9-10. Shade introduced by the neighbors 60' tall elm tree also has an effect. You don't want to get edible varieties too close to each other if you will actually have decent fruit production.


Ornamentals can most likely be placed as close as the rootzones of the plants can stand. Spacing will boil down to actual crowding, pushing, and shoving. Most are small anyway. This type of planting will need additional attention due to the possible increased need for water and nutrients. I am planning 5-7 different varieties of ornamental bananas for a bed 4' wide and 10' long. I'll interplant with other cover plants.

Just my $.02

mskitty38583
01-09-2008, 12:36 AM
i like the addition of the .02 cents. thank you for your input. i appriciate it greatly.

bencelest
01-09-2008, 12:40 AM
I'll do the same Microfarmer. Us Home Gardeners need not adhere to commercial growers' specific method. I will experiment a lot with my 12 x 14 plot. I can always reduce their numbers anytime I want.

AllenF
01-09-2008, 12:47 AM
I have a 8' x 3' area and will be putting 2 Raja Puris, a Dwarf Brazilian and at least 1 Dwarf Cavendish in it.

That should make it machete country.

Allen

mskitty38583
01-09-2008, 01:04 AM
the second area that i want to make into banana country is 24 ft. long by 10 ft wide.( thats the one that needs all the work done to it, its on a hill/ slope.) i have to put a fence up to keep the neighbors wonderful children out of my matte, and on that side of the fence im gonna plant crown of thorns. i love that plant. and that one im gonna have a fun time playing in. so i guess that to get fruit you space a little ways apart, and to not worry about fruit plant as close as possible. lots of things to mull over. thanks guys. it is appriciated!:nanablowskisses:

microfarmer
01-09-2008, 11:15 PM
the second area that i want to make into banana country is 24 ft. long by 10 ft wide.( thats the one that needs all the work done to it, its on a hill/ slope.) i have to put a fence up to keep the neighbors wonderful children out of my matte, and on that side of the fence im gonna plant crown of thorns. i love that plant. and that one im gonna have a fun time playing in. so i guess that to get fruit you space a little ways apart, and to not worry about fruit plant as close as possible. lots of things to mull over. thanks guys. it is appriciated!:nanablowskisses:

For the edibles I am spacing them no more than an arms breadth apart in a 10' x 15' area. I will have about 10-12 plants in this area. I'll layer them with the shorter varieties to the south and the taller varieties to the north. I'll group the plants with like needs and wants (no mixing of cold hardy CA Gold with sunburnt at 42 deg. Valery).

For ornamentals I'll plant my bananas a lot closer together, with smaller tropical looking plants between them, almost overcrowded. I am replacing a 25' tall x 20' wide fruitless Mulberry shade tree in a 12'x5' flower bed with a tropicalesque flower bed including 5-7 bananas of different varieties and sizes. It will be between my patio furniture and (satellite dish) pond for a more cohesive look. It also must supply the same amount of shade as the Mulberry for afternoon patio sittin'.

I also have a bed out front with 7 plants in it, but I will expand that to about 10-12. It is 32" wide and 20 feet long.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7190&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7190)

The way I figger it, If you can get bananas to fruit in a pot, then if you put all those pots of bananas together, you should be able to grow those same plants, in that same formation, in the ground. Maybe more successfully, as plants love to be in the ground!

Pay attention to what the plants like and their terminal size. AeAe like more shade (north). Saba gets big and goes in back (to the north) Dw Cav up front (south) and maybe an Orinoco in the front middle somewhere and a Brazilian behind it in front of the Saba. Some like more daytime heat (west) and some less (east). They all love water and ferts when it's warm out, so that's easy.

Planted this close also helps in the winter as I have small areas to protect but jammed with plants. :baloonnaner:

bencelest
01-10-2008, 01:27 AM
[QUOTE=microfarmer;26433]:
The way I figger it, If you can get bananas to fruit in a pot, then if you put all those pots of bananas together, you should be able to grow those same plants, in that same formation, in the ground. Maybe more successfully, as plants love to be in the ground!

P/QUOTE]
Yep! That's my way of thinking. And I'll do as you say, the shorter bananas in front and the taller ones at the back so everyone has a share of the sunlight.
And all of my bananas will be dwarf. I won't worry about their cold hardiness because they will all be protected in the Winter time. If I can make an atemoya to stay alive there so will all my bananas.
I will separate the most taller ones and they will be planted somewhere else.

Tropicallvr
01-10-2008, 09:39 AM
Sounds like you got some space to play around with. I remember seeing some unknown bananas in Heldsburg CA, planted in a 2 X 8 cement bed along the south side of a house. The bananas were kinda forming to the cramped encloser, and p-stem bulginging over the edges. There wasn't a inch of dirt seen(not sure how they were able to get water to them though). Anyways after that I realized how much they can take and still look good and not seem hampered by tight spaces.

Musa manii, and other small tropicals(aroids, gingers, ect) make nice under plantings too!

CookieCows
01-10-2008, 11:36 AM
That was great info on the placement of the different banana types. Being a novice (understatement) at tropicals ... simple help like that for me is what can help me learn the different plants and their needs. I have a Banana file on microsoft word where I cut and paste just the info. I need to remember and have "at a glance".

Always learning from you all! Thanks..
Deb

magicgreen
01-10-2008, 02:00 PM
I agree with Microfarmer! This past summer i was out at a garage sale, and i was walking by and saw this banana plant about 5 or 6Ft tall in a small pot of bonedry dirt! And the plant looked good! It was when we had highs of 100*! There was a tree to the left of it, iam sure gave afternoon shade. hmmm......... I thought......They can take more than i thought!

Anyway.....................................

Ive noticed alot of members here, show pictures of their plants, in pots i would consider wayyyyy tooo small.

But so far what ive read, and seen, so far says bananas like company of other plants or a tight space.

Even in pics' of banana plantations, they are fairly close.
Soooooo in growing bananas, you can grow in a narrow space,or a small pot,(but you have to keep it from falling over) just as long as there is full space for their leaves, or you'll get shredded leaves.{unless shredded leaves dont bother you} If the leaves hit each other, a structure, planted in a windy area, they'll be shredded or knocked over!

I dont want shredded leaves! And noooo i wont have a bunch of shredded leaves on my nannas in my garden, because its like its own lil' microclimate.I live in the city, the houses and fences make wind breaks.

I only had 2 in my garden last summer. They were 3ft apart. And young! And I knew then, they were gonna need room for those leaves.
When i picked up my DC, they were 5*& 6* tall. planted 5 and 6* apart, and no shredded leaves!

He underplanted some with EE"s and palms. And around the border for the nanners, he grew giant castor bean plants as wind breaks. He had acres of land. Some folks ive seen, planted pineapple's underneath the nannas.

My basjoo has daylillies half mooned around it. I hope it makes it. This basjoo is planted in the middle of my front yard. I had giant sunflowers planted around the border of the yard. I learned then that the sunflowers acted as a wind break, the Basjoo didnt have shredded leaves by the end of summer.

Iam looking forward to this summer to see if the same is true again. This time i have those castor bean seeds, instead of those sunflowers.

So I want mine; 6ft apart and grow other plants in-between. It'll be a really pretty picture. And easier to dig up, since i have to over-winter alot of my pretties anyway!

bencelest
01-10-2008, 03:31 PM
MG:
Right on!

mskitty38583
01-10-2008, 04:07 PM
i have actually drawn out the planting guide to my new banana beds for the spring. and i will actually have more room then i thought. so now i got to get some black ee's and some more green ee's to go along with my nana trees. will probably put some snake plants out there also. i have some tiger lilies that will look awsome out there with a few cannas for color. then i went out to smoke this morning...bad mistake! i have a flower bed that is about 40ft lng by about 6 ft wide in the front of my house. i have one peace rose bush out there that is 18 ft. tall and a don won climber at the other end, and daylilies and tiger lilies.so i was thinking... dwarf cavandish or sdc, and some other type of dwarfs and some ee's out there...( also thought about some ornata out there.) i have stepped into a hornets nest now. dont know where ill put the rose bushes but they will be on the fence row along the back fence somewhere. ill have to get some cold hardy palms to finish out the affect. this is fun. im tired already and i havent even begun. lol

magicgreen
01-10-2008, 08:21 PM
Mskitty, i like that weather underground banner you have.:2753:

inkcube
01-11-2008, 01:20 AM
Even in pics' of banana plantations, they are fairly close.

actually they are not that close. we plant in a double row hexagonal layouts for the dessert cultivars; Valery & Grand Nain 2.6 m (8.5 ft) apart with row spacing the same, Dwarf Cavendish 2.5 m (8.2 ft) x 2.5 m (8.2 ft), plantains we plant straight rows at 3 m (9.8ft) apart and 2 m (6.5 ft) between rows. back in the Gros Michel days they planted them 4.87 m or 15.9 ft apart.

AnnaJW
01-11-2008, 03:39 AM
Hey Mskitty! I can't wait to see your results, however you plant 'em!
I started out being very careful about spacing. Then the gophers screwed up my planting design. Then I got to visit Pitangodiego's place in San Diego in 2006. Once I saw a true banana jungle, all (formal) planting designs were gone! That's when I started just putting them all over the backyard. Whatever you decide, it will be awesome!
Hurry up Spring! LOL!!!

mskitty38583
01-11-2008, 10:12 AM
miss anna: i have half the work done in the first bed. however i guess god didnt want me to finish yesterday...it rained really hard for half the day. now its good and soggy outside. i might get out there and play in the mud to get everything else moved( dont know where im gonna put the rest of my flowers, but i will find someplace). i cant wait to start getting stuff put in the ground. im still trying to settle on what kinds of nanas i want to put out there. i know i want basjoo, and a hcm, but i got to reading about the dwarf oronico and the dwarf braz.red. so many nanas, so little time. lol. in the front bed im thinking sdc's and a zebrina's. who knows ill probably change my mind 50 times before it gets in the ground. there is one bananatree (besides all of mine) in this town. for two yrs i have tried to buy it from him. it looks like an oronico. he didnt even know that he had to feed it. so i told him how to feed it, and one month later that tree had grown 3 feet, and had so many leaves it was beautiful.( i still want that tree!!) i just cant wait to get my yard on its way to the tropics! i cant wait to see it myself! thanks for the confidence yall, it is inspiring. to bad i dont have a back hoe, or a ditch witch....oh well.

microfarmer
01-11-2008, 10:23 AM
Sounds like you got some space to play around with. I remember seeing some unknown bananas in Heldsburg CA, planted in a 2 X 8 cement bed along the south side of a house. The bananas were kinda forming to the cramped encloser, and p-stem bulginging over the edges. There wasn't a inch of dirt seen(not sure how they were able to get water to them though). Anyways after that I realized how much they can take and still look good and not seem hampered by tight spaces.

Musa manii, and other small tropicals(aroids, gingers, ect) make nice under plantings too!
Healdsburg, huh? Sounds like another motorcycle trip in the making. I had planned to go to Golden Gate park 2 weeks ago to get pics of the blackstemmed bananas, but I cancelled due to rain. The last bike trip I took to the coast (about 3 weeks earlier) was to pick up 150 oysters, and it rained all day! I was soaked and very cold by the time I got home... I didn't want a repeat so soon.

i have actually drawn out the planting guide to my new banana beds for the spring. and i will actually have more room then i thought. so now i got to get some black ee's and some more green ee's to go along with my nana trees. will probably put some snake plants out there also. i have some tiger lilies that will look awsome out there with a few cannas for color.
Don't forget to get more bananas! I like the Tiger lily idea! I already have some where I'm replacing the Mulberry. I'll need to get more now. I also have a Kahili and white ginger and some veriegated Spiderplant, and a dwarf canna with a fruitpunch colored bloom. I also have many pineapples to use, and can prolly put in some herbs like basil and cilantro, and some kale for the wintrtime.

The front bed along the driveway will have 2-3' between bananas and have a nice underplanting to it also. The problem is, I'll need shade tolerant plants up front as I get the shady north side of the neighbor's wall/fence at the base of the bananas. I have helliconias planted there now (no bloom yet) and Coleus and Impatians did very well for me. Maybe some ferns...

My back fence area out by the horse pasture won't get the fancy look and will look more like a plantation than a flower bed. Spacing there will be more generous for more fruit production, but the plants will still be about 4' apart, give or take depending on mature mat size. I don't want to crowd them too much.

then i went out to smoke this morning...bad mistake! (snip)
Smoking is a bad mistake:nanablowskisses:


actually they are not that close. we plant in a double row hexagonal layouts for the dessert cultivars; Valery & Grand Nain 2.6 m (8.5 ft) apart with row spacing the same, Dwarf Cavendish 2.5 m (8.2 ft) x 2.5 m (8.2 ft), plantains we plant straight rows at 3 m (9.8ft) apart and 2 m (6.5 ft) between rows. back in the Gros Michel days they planted them 4.87 m or 15.9 ft apart.
Inkcube, at those distances (up to 16' apart) it seems like you'd have no leaves touching each other. Is this an industry standard for maximum production, or more for machinery access, or is this to reduce desease spread or better nutrient delivery? I'm sure you don't do it for the 'look' of the plant. What kind of palntain is in commercial production? Are the plantains and Gros Michel of similar heights and widths? If so, what is the reason for planting rows of Gros Michel almost 2.5X as far apart as the plantain?

Plantains, with rows @ 2m/6.5' apart, is fairly close, and more like the spacing a home gardener will use. It makes my 4' apart sound like I still have plenty of room. I do understand that a Saba mat will not be anything close to the size of a Dw Cavendish mat and will need more spacing than the Cavendish, but I don't have very many giants (1 Saba, and 1 Brazilian?) with the rest of my bananas coming in around 8-14' tall. I'll be using a somewhat hexagonal planting also.

so many questions...

Jeff

magicgreen
01-11-2008, 10:33 AM
Ink cube, Do you have a picture?:2204:

mskitty38583
01-11-2008, 10:57 AM
smoking is a bad mistake. me, like mark twaine have quit a thousand times. that is the last real bad habit i have. it is one that i intend to remedy...eventually. i love tiger lilies, i think that they look and have a tropical flare. im even thinking about moving all my lilies into the nana beds in clumps. the more nanas the merrier. lol i like your ideas microfarmer. i dont have white ginger or any ginger for that matter.there will be time for that later when i get everything settled in their places and find the empty spots. and have to have something to use as a fill in.( i have ground ginger that i cook with...lol) post pic when you can.

inkcube
01-11-2008, 12:13 PM
Inkcube, at those distances (up to 16' apart) it seems like you'd have no leaves touching each other. Is this an industry standard for maximum production, or more for machinery access, or is this to reduce desease spread or better nutrient delivery? I'm sure you don't do it for the 'look' of the plant. What kind of palntain is in commercial production? Are the plantains and Gros Michel of similar heights and widths? If so, what is the reason for planting rows of Gros Michel almost 2.5X as far apart as the plantain?

Plantains, with rows @ 2m/6.5' apart, is fairly close, and more like the spacing a home gardener will use. It makes my 4' apart sound like I still have plenty of room. I do understand that a Saba mat will not be anything close to the size of a Dw Cavendish mat and will need more spacing than the Cavendish, but I don't have very many giants (1 Saba, and 1 Brazilian?) with the rest of my bananas coming in around 8-14' tall. I'll be using a somewhat hexagonal planting also.

so many questions...

Jeff

at the plantation level density is fairly complex and is base on locality, cultivar, soil type/fertility, plantation health & longevity - once set it is difficult to adjust. for the most part density is determined for maximum bunch production. high densities cause longer crop cycles, smaller bunches with smaller fruit but increase total yield per hectare. the numbers i gave above are fairly standard. also considered in the spacing is followers which is typically one, there are exceptions. plus once the bunch is gone from the mother we prune off leaves to give more light to the follower.

Gros Michel is such a robust plant, we still keep a few. it gets up to 14' with a thick stout trunk and a fair leaf spread, might be my favorite dessert banana.

we grow plantains for local markets and predominantly grow FHIA-25 which is a semi-dwarf plant but a few Puerto Rican Dwarfs, and some horn types - all 10' or under. most of the ones i see growing are the common dwarf cultivar or a horn variety. off the top of my head i cannot think of the cultivars grown by Bonita & Del Monte, their farms are in Ecuador, probably a horn or French type possibly an FHIA cultivar.

for the home grower that doesn't grow for a big bunch with big fingers plus face space constraints 4ft should be fine. i would think height would not be affected too much until the mat gets thick.

microfarmer
01-11-2008, 06:30 PM
at the plantation level density is fairly complex and is base on locality, cultivar, soil type/fertility, plantation health & longevity - once set it is difficult to adjust. for the most part density is determined for maximum bunch production. high densities cause longer crop cycles, smaller bunches with smaller fruit but increase total yield per hectare.

I figured that maximum bunch production was the aim of spacing, but I had no idea that high densities caused longer crop cycles. I guess higher densities create more shade and the plants take longer to mature...and fruit.

the numbers i gave above are fairly standard. also considered in the spacing is followers which is typically one, there are exceptions. plus once the bunch is gone from the mother we prune off leaves to give more light to the follower.

Only 1 follower? how do they know which one to keep?

Gros Michel is such a robust plant, we still keep a few. it gets up to 14' with a thick stout trunk and a fair leaf spread, might be my favorite dessert banana.

I'd like to try this one. Sounds like it'd be wind tolerant even though it gets so tall. Is it cold tolerant as well or sensitive?

we grow plantains for local markets and predominantly grow FHIA-25 which is a semi-dwarf plant but a few Puerto Rican Dwarfs, and some horn types - all 10' or under. most of the ones i see growing are the common dwarf cultivar or a horn variety. off the top of my head i cannot think of the cultivars grown by Bonita & Del Monte, their farms are in Ecuador, probably a horn or French type possibly an FHIA cultivar.

for the home grower that doesn't grow for a big bunch with big fingers plus face space constraints 4ft should be fine. i would think height would not be affected too much until the mat gets thick.

Something I just thought of, How long do they keep the mats on a commercial operation? Do they decline after a certain age?

Thanks!

Jeff

Tropicallvr
01-11-2008, 08:04 PM
Healdsburg, huh? Sounds like another motorcycle trip in the making. I had planned to go to Golden Gate park 2 weeks ago to get pics of the blackstemmed bananas, but I cancelled due to rain. The last bike trip I took to the coast (about 3 weeks earlier) was to pick up 150 oysters, and it rained all day! I was soaked and very cold by the time I got home... I didn't want a repeat so soon.


Jeff

Yikes. I always wanted a Motorcycle for cheap transport around town, but winters would suck, and storms come out of no where sometimes. Look forward to your updates.

Here's a Dwarf Cavendish field in Nayarit MX. Fast pic taken from passanger side of a pickup. It's at the end of the dry season, and they look pretty worn, but i thought I'd throw a pic at the thread anyways.
Icecube- I'd like to see some pics please(if you got them)!
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7557&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7557)

mskitty38583
01-11-2008, 08:29 PM
ill take 12 please.:bunchonanas: :bunchonanas:

microfarmer
01-11-2008, 11:34 PM
Yikes. I always wanted a Motorcycle for cheap transport around town, but winters would suck, and storms come out of no where sometimes. Look forward to your updates.

Here's a Dwarf Cavendish field in Nayarit MX. Fast pic taken from passanger side of a pickup. It's at the end of the dry season, and they look pretty worn, but i thought I'd throw a pic at the thread anyways.
Icecube- I'd like to see some pics please(if you got them)!
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7557&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7557)

Those look really short and well spaced. No light competition there. They look to be about 6' tall, & 8' apart.

As for the bike, It's my go to vehicle. I've put 40K miles on this one in 5 years. http://www.pbase.com/conestogaman/image/1488382 It's just so much easier to get around on a bike than in a cage.

I don't mind rain riding, or even rain riding all day, but I need new boots and rain suit. The boots are just plain worn out. I have a nice Kalihari jacket and lowers, well insulated, breathable, and very warm, with thick padding at the elbows, shoulders, spine, hips and knees, but it lets water through.

I also have a very well used up, 18 year old, one piece Vetter rain suit that is rubberized inside (not breathable) and insulated, but it has no padding and is not for crashing in (so to speak), and it lets water thru, somewhere in the sun-don't-shine area. Plus, as an added bonus, after an all day ride your perspiration has nowhere to go, so even if it didn't rain, you are still damp and easily chilled...

One of my most memorable trips was a trip to Death Valley on my old GS in early February '01 with my bro-in-law. We had rain most of the way back.

We went from Sacramento down 99 and cut east at Delano (about 150 miles north of Bakersfield) and went over the Sierra into Lake Isabella. We passed the snow chain control signs and as we climbed, the temp was falling and the snowmelt on the curves was getting slushy. We gassed up about 6 pm and then kept going into Ridgecrest and decided over dinner we were too tired to continue on so got a room at a motel. There was a movie shoot nearby. They had booked every room in the town, but since it was the MLK holiday, the movie crews had gone back to LA for the weekend and we could have the room for one night. That's all we needed...

The next day we stopped at the Trona Pinnacles and marvelled over the moon-like landscape. It was here we discovered the movie set. We didn't know it then, but it was for 'Planet of the Apes'. They mocked up the crashed rocketship, and I got a pic of my bike with the rocket in the background. Look over the top of the helmet on the handlebars at the ragged fins sticking out of the side of the hill. http://www.pbase.com/conestogaman/image/1488512
I also saw my first Joshua trees... http://www.pbase.com/conestogaman/image/1488511

We spent 3 days camped in Death Valley with 75-80 degree weather and drove straight thru with only fuel stops on the way home. Rained for about 250 outta 425 miles with a major accident around Modesto. We lane split for about 5 miles before we got past it. Shut down to 1 lane. I'll never forget that trip even though there were times we were...uncomfortable...

I've already been on 3 banana runs with my bike. I went to Modesto to Jeff Earl's home to get my CA Gold, and I went by Joe Real's home for my Manzano and Zebrina (all doing ok so far guys!). Plus I got 2 pups from my co worker's home. I use my bike more like a packmule sometimes. I've even had 10 bareroot semi-dwarf fruit trees on the back after I ran into a good deal. It's been from LA to Crater Lake and the Sisters.

One day, I'd like to go back to Montana (on my bike, of course). I haven't been there since 1982 when I was living in South Dakota. Then a quick trip over to Utah and the north rim of the 'Canyon' before coming home over 'The Loneliest Road in America' http://www.byways.org/explore/byways/2033/

I'm sure I'll manage to add in a few more banana runs starting with Healdsburg and Golden Gate Park. :camelnaner:

CookieCows
01-11-2008, 11:55 PM
You have SO much fun!! I love road trips!!


in a car :ha: with the top down. I'll get the wind in my hair that way! The pictures were great!

bencelest
01-12-2008, 01:51 AM
for the home grower that doesn't grow for a big bunch with big fingers plus face space constraints 4ft should be fine. i would think height would not be affected too much until the mat gets thick.[/QUOTE]

4 feet is what I have in mind for spacing.

mskitty38583
01-12-2008, 10:06 AM
i think that sounds good. if i decide i want more fruit then ill just move something! today is suppossed to be nice, if i can get motivated (past one cup of joe) and can pry myself away from the nana.org, i might get the rest of my stuff moved and get everything marked where i want it to go. oh and i got to put about 20+ gallons of water in my aquar. this morning. i got all but the back glass cleaned, new filters, cleaned the top glass. i do have fish in there. thought the cats got them all. just joking. one day ill have to tell yall the story of pepper anne, my 13 yr.old toothless tabby and the disseapearing fish.

microfarmer
01-12-2008, 12:06 PM
You have SO much fun!! I love road trips!!


in a car :ha: with the top down. I'll get the wind in my hair that way! The pictures were great!

At least a convertible is only 1/2 a cage:2789:

I search for any excuse for a bike ride! I want to get a custom seat for my bike and there's a very good seat builder up'n around Red Bluff that'll do it while I wait. I'll get it custom formed to my...er...seat...

Then maybe I can join the IBA http://www.ironbutt.com/about/default.cfm And do a few of their rides http://www.ironbutt.com/ridecerts/

Here's a pic of Crater Lake, OR http://www.pbase.com/conestogaman/image/1585785

Tropicallvr
01-12-2008, 01:00 PM
Sounds alot more memorable than in a car, and probably see things that you don't in a car.
I remember that pass from Bakersfield to Death Valley, really nice Jousha trees there, and your description in the snow reminded me of the "motorcycle Diaries" (one of my favorite movies).
If you do get a chance to come up to Montana, Glacier Park "Going to the sun" road would be awesome on a bike.
http://www.terragalleria.com/parks/np-image.glac0565.html

microfarmer
01-12-2008, 01:06 PM
Sounds alot more memorable than in a car, and probably see things that you don't in a car.
I remember that pass from Bakersfield to Death Valley, really nice Jousha trees there, and your description in the snow reminded me of the "motorcycle Diaries" (one of my favorite movies).
If you do get a chance to come up to Montana, Glacier Park "Going to the sun" road would be awesome on a bike.
http://www.terragalleria.com/parks/np-image.glac0565.html

Just beautiful!

I do want to see 'Glacier Natl. Pk.' before it becomes the 'Glacier-used-to-be-right-here Natl. Pk.'

:2717:

inkcube
01-12-2008, 02:08 PM
Only 1 follower? how do they know which one to keep?

typically the first sword off of the mother that followers the line, sometimes 2 will be "watched" and the most vigorous is kept or both will be kept if there is space to be filled but you really want the follower as close to the mother as possible. the aim is to keep spacing of the mats directional and as equal as possible - openings, clumping, and excessive shading are to be avoided.


I'd like to try this one. Sounds like it'd be wind tolerant even though it gets so tall. Is it cold tolerant as well or sensitive?

it seems to be fairly cold tolerant and it stands up to wind nicely, one of the issues when a replacement was sought was cold tolerance - most of the progeny from breeding eventually lost this tolerance.


Something I just thought of, How long do they keep the mats on a commercial operation? Do they decline after a certain age?

that all depends on management & financial health of the farm and the locale of the farm. we try to replant fields every 5 years based on some of my own research. also we use aerial photos to help tells us when fields "get out of line". in Central America there are many old estates, 30-40 yrs old ones are common. i have seen some 20 year old stands, often these growers will not adhere to any spatial arrangement. with good management; fertilizers, nematode control, and pruning, these older stands don't really decline in terms of yield - some of this is due to higher densities in the older mats, although infra-red photography may show some decline in plant health.

CookieCows
01-12-2008, 03:52 PM
We have family in Ronan, Mt. and rented a cabin on Flathead Lake one year for a family reunion. BEAUTIFUL!

microfarmer
01-13-2008, 01:08 AM
Thank you Inkcube. I'm glad to see with proper care, my plants can live for many decades and still provide good production.

inkcube
01-13-2008, 01:33 AM
np! when i was born my father planted a banana by the main house, some good luck tradition, and he did the same for my older brother in - both mats are still alive and going strong, well over 4 decades! interestingly they are descendants of the first Cavendishes he bought.

AnnaJW
01-13-2008, 01:33 AM
Those look really short and well spaced. No light competition there. They look to be about 6' tall, & 8' apart.

As for the bike, It's my go to vehicle. I've put 40K miles on this one in 5 years. http://www.pbase.com/conestogaman/image/1488382 It's just so much easier to get around on a bike than in a cage.

I don't mind rain riding, or even rain riding all day, but I need new boots and rain suit. The boots are just plain worn out. I have a nice Kalihari jacket and lowers, well insulated, breathable, and very warm, with thick padding at the elbows, shoulders, spine, hips and knees, but it lets water through.

I also have a very well used up, 18 year old, one piece Vetter rain suit that is rubberized inside (not breathable) and insulated, but it has no padding and is not for crashing in (so to speak), and it lets water thru, somewhere in the sun-don't-shine area. Plus, as an added bonus, after an all day ride your perspiration has nowhere to go, so even if it didn't rain, you are still damp and easily chilled...

One of my most memorable trips was a trip to Death Valley on my old GS in early February '01 with my bro-in-law. We had rain most of the way back.

We went from Sacramento down 99 and cut east at Delano (about 150 miles north of Bakersfield) and went over the Sierra into Lake Isabella. We passed the snow chain control signs and as we climbed, the temp was falling and the snowmelt on the curves was getting slushy. We gassed up about 6 pm and then kept going into Ridgecrest and decided over dinner we were too tired to continue on so got a room at a motel. There was a movie shoot nearby. They had booked every room in the town, but since it was the MLK holiday, the movie crews had gone back to LA for the weekend and we could have the room for one night. That's all we needed...

The next day we stopped at the Trona Pinnacles and marvelled over the moon-like landscape. It was here we discovered the movie set. We didn't know it then, but it was for 'Planet of the Apes'. They mocked up the crashed rocketship, and I got a pic of my bike with the rocket in the background. Look over the top of the helmet on the handlebars at the ragged fins sticking out of the side of the hill. http://www.pbase.com/conestogaman/image/1488512
I also saw my first Joshua trees... http://www.pbase.com/conestogaman/image/1488511

We spent 3 days camped in Death Valley with 75-80 degree weather and drove straight thru with only fuel stops on the way home. Rained for about 250 outta 425 miles with a major accident around Modesto. We lane split for about 5 miles before we got past it. Shut down to 1 lane. I'll never forget that trip even though there were times we were...uncomfortable...

I've already been on 3 banana runs with my bike. I went to Modesto to Jeff Earl's home to get my CA Gold, and I went by Joe Real's home for my Manzano and Zebrina (all doing ok so far guys!). Plus I got 2 pups from my co worker's home. I use my bike more like a packmule sometimes. I've even had 10 bareroot semi-dwarf fruit trees on the back after I ran into a good deal. It's been from LA to Crater Lake and the Sisters.

One day, I'd like to go back to Montana (on my bike, of course). I haven't been there since 1982 when I was living in South Dakota. Then a quick trip over to Utah and the north rim of the 'Canyon' before coming home over 'The Loneliest Road in America' http://www.byways.org/explore/byways/2033/

I'm sure I'll manage to add in a few more banana runs starting with Healdsburg and Golden Gate Park. :camelnaner:

Your adventures sound wonderful! I love Death Valley! Well, not in the summer months of course. :) I did some field trips for my Geology studies there. I actually had plans to move there at one point in time. But now I don't think bananas would fare well there...

bananimal
01-13-2008, 03:31 PM
Samantha,

This is what I found out when I first considered planting naners - the rules of thumb for backyard enthusiasts wanting max fruit yield per plant.
Several nurseries recommended (for a single row), 8 feet between first plantings. They said this leaves room for the 2 follow-on pups left on the mat (removing all others) to allow enough sunlight for everybody. This way the main pstem gets plenty of food for fruiting while only sharing fert with two others.

Dan

mskitty38583
01-13-2008, 04:08 PM
hey that works. that way when they pup i can bring in the pups and keep them in the house. i think im becoming a banana monster.:2710:. lol.