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View Full Version : Preference for shade in early frosty mornings?


harveyc
12-04-2007, 08:41 PM
I heard recently about an older guy that had grown some bananas in the area and I asked a relative of his recently if he knew if he still had any bananas which he had brought from Madeira, Portugal. Unfortunately, they had died several years ago. Anyways, the relative was giving me advice about growing bananas in our climate. He suggested that I not grow them in an area that receives morning sun. He said it is better for the them to warm up slowly in the morning after a frost, etc. I'm trying to figure out why this might be the case. Any ideas?

mskitty38583
12-04-2007, 08:53 PM
as with regular plants, if you thaw them out quickly it can cause tissue damage in the leaves and or stems. this will cause them to rot and die. it could be the same for the nanas.

the flying dutchman
12-04-2007, 09:18 PM
I think, and think, and think, the more sun the better, morning sun, evening
sun, better both, whatever.

I personally think he is wrong, but i could be mistaken.



Ron

bencelest
12-04-2007, 09:28 PM
I am with you Ron. I think the morning sun is better on any living plants than noon or late afternoon sun but the more sun the better for the bananas or other plants for photosynthetic activity except of course for shade loving plants. But then of course each plant has a threshold of accepting sunlight for their maximum food production.

harveyc
12-04-2007, 09:31 PM
as with regular plants, if you thaw them out quickly it can cause tissue damage in the leaves and or stems. this will cause them to rot and die. it could be the same for the nanas.

I've heard this before, but have never seen any rationale on why thawing out quickly can cause damage. The expansion of the cells during the freezing is what I would think causes all of the damage. Please explain if you have any information to explain this claim. Thanks!

Ron and Benny, I'm with you. Morning sun would help keep the soil warmer it seems.

mskitty38583
12-04-2007, 09:49 PM
i had a philodendrum that was outside and we had a freeze. i couldnt get to it cause i had to go to school, but i saw it on the way out. ive always heard and i quote," if your plant freezes use cool water to rinse it off so it dosent cause tissue damage- cell damage, what ever you want to call it when it thaws and to remove it out of the sun. doing this will increase the healing rate of the plant." i have never dumped cool or cold water on my plants( it could throw them into shock. i know id go into shock!) i also found out first hand (my own plant) that if it was left outside after a freeze and it thawed in the sun, it would turn the plant to mush. it did. i have not left a plant outside after sept.7 since. i dont know if this happens to "tender plants" and or house plants.so this is based on what happened to my plant and the tragic death of a beautiful 5 yr. old plant.

D_&_T
12-04-2007, 09:53 PM
it could be compared to freezing then to boiling, plus the ice crystals break and tare / cut the cells open
when I'm on the ambulance we slowly rewarm frostbite, when you warm to fast can cause ice crystals to get in blood stream and cause even more damage:coldbanana:

Dan

klemmthamm
12-04-2007, 10:34 PM
I can see both sides of the discussion.... personally I don't know which would be better but hopefully someone can fill us in with some legitimate research.

Dan, I didn't know you were an EMT... I just recertified EVOC on ambulance and fire apparatus.:2223:

natedogg1026
12-04-2007, 10:38 PM
I'd say sun after a frost. How long does it take frost to melt off your windshield in the morning? I'd say that is gradual enough for a plant. :dreadlocksnaner:

harveyc
12-04-2007, 11:28 PM
I'm not convinced of either side yet, but I think it's interesting how we have different idea on the matter. Let's have a IBS meeting and discuss it over a beer or glass of wine, or two! ;)

klemmthamm
12-04-2007, 11:42 PM
I'm not convinced of either side yet, but I think it's interesting how we have different idea on the matter. Let's have a IBS meeting and discuss it over a beer or glass of wine, or two! ;)

Deal! :D

jason
12-04-2007, 11:51 PM
They say that the first 4 hours of light are the most important to plants and their growth!!

jason
12-04-2007, 11:54 PM
But I do agree with the whole needing to warm up slowly,,to fast is what really damages the plants tissue not so much the frost! Just my outlook on this post!

mskitty38583
12-05-2007, 12:52 AM
if your buying i want to go to margaritaville. jimmy buffet is my hero!

klemmthamm
12-05-2007, 02:15 AM
But I do agree with the whole needing to warm up slowly,,to fast is what really damages the plants tissue not so much the frost! Just my outlook on this post!

I think morning sunlight is definately a good thing... one of my fastest growing plants this year was my grand naine and it had good early morning sun and evening sun but was shaded during the middle of the day...

my slowest growing was my herans and it got just mainly middle afternoon sun with little or no morning or evening light.

bencelest
12-05-2007, 11:19 AM
They say that the first 4 hours of light are the most important to plants and their growth!! Jason



These are proof that the morning sun is best for your plants and this is what I am trying to convey on my statement above.

bencelest
12-05-2007, 11:21 AM
I think morning sunlight is definately a good thing... one of my fastest growing plants this year was my grand naine and it had good early morning sun and evening sun but was shaded during the middle of the day...

my slowest growing was my herans and it got just mainly middle afternoon sun with little or no morning or evening light.

More

inkcube
12-05-2007, 09:41 PM
when plants are cold the photosythetic machinery is slow to utilize the free electrons generated by the protein that cleaves water as well as dispose of hydroxly radicals that are generated by this action. these radicals in turn punch holes in membranes and any other protein structure they come in contact with and cause cell death - when suffciently warm a plant can handle the free electrons through photosynthesis as well as the radicals.

a great experiment done in the 30's to the first step in proving this by placing tropical house plants on the edge of the Black Forest. one set was left in the open and another set was covered by black boxes - temperature was 29F (-1C). the covered plants showed no damage, uncovered were dead. for plants not hardy to the region you are growing in it is always best to give them morning shade so that they can warm up as opposed to bright sun.

in general morning sun is best because it is the "coolest" light, the day has not had a chance to warm up to the point where the plant slows down from heat build up and photoinhibition (photosynthesis shuts down in excessive heat and light). by the time the day is hot the plant has had a chance to ramp up its metabolism and the processes that can deal with radicals created during the heat.

plants that are hardy to the region have ways of shuttling water into extracellular spaces (the space between cells) and at the same time keeping nucleating agents free of that water so freezing is not an issue. more cold damage is done by desiccating breezes and winds more than anything else, there are always exceptions.

klemmthamm
12-05-2007, 09:47 PM
Inkcube you my friend are awesome.... Thank you for sharing you knowledge with us... I am now smarter than when I woke up this morning (afternoon whatever).

-James-

magicgreen
12-05-2007, 10:10 PM
:0518: Inkcube you....you....you....you are .....BABABA--BAD!!!!!!! See people we gotta have have a BANANA CONVENTION!!!!!!!!!!!! CHECK IT OUT!!!!
We probably could have it in the "Virgin Islands", Florida, Quatamala, Spain, London, Quebec or New York City!!!!!!!! RIGHHHTTTT!!!!!!! Just Squirrel that around in your minds for 6 weeks, and lets make it happen!!!!!! WHOOOSSSS GAME? LIFES SHORT, GOTTA PLAY HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!wHERES OUR ORGANIZERS???????????????:jumpingonbednaner: :jumpingonbednaner: :0518: :0518: :0518: :11: :11: :choochoo: :choochoo: :choochoo:

D_&_T
12-05-2007, 10:29 PM
Dan, I didn't know you were an EMT... I just recertified EVOC on ambulance and fire apparatus.:2223:

required to have CEVO at service I'm with:skateboardnana:

klemmthamm
12-05-2007, 10:42 PM
required to have CEVO at service I'm with:skateboardnana:

Ambulance and fire app. are great and all but LEDT (Law Enforcement Driver Training) is where the real fun is at!

natedogg1026
12-06-2007, 12:02 AM
Um, somebody say beer. :bananas_b :bananas_b :bananas_b

mskitty38583
12-06-2007, 12:03 AM
ok incube. due to the fact that i havent taken my biology 1 in botony yet...ummmm could you possibly speak english when you give us scientific facts? i would really like to understand what you are saying its kind of important to understand what people are trying to convey. lol::2727:

harveyc
12-06-2007, 12:34 AM
ok incube. due to the fact that i havent taken my biology 1 in botony yet...ummmm could you possibly speak english when you give us scientific facts? i would really like to understand what you are saying its kind of important to understand what people are trying to convey. lol::2727:

Amen! I think I understood the idea behind his comments, though, and he did explain the "why" part of my original question!!! :D

Inkcube, your profile describes your background as "research, grower, consultant". Would you please let us know a little bit more about you and what you do?

Nate, I'm with you, though I can only handle 1 or 2.

Magicgreen, I agree, it would be nice for us to have a meeting some day. How about hosting it at your place, Jarred? ;)

inkcube
12-06-2007, 12:36 AM
been doing this a long and sometimes forget not every one speaks or reads this stuff. hope this helps a bit:

photosythetic machinery - set of proteins responsible for photosynthesis the process of turning carbon dioxide into sugar using water and light

cleaves water, in this case splitting water into H+(proton) and –OH(hydroxyl free radical) and a free electron

free radical - atomic or molecular species with unpaired electrons

photoinhibition - process that shuts down photosynthesis shuts down the absorption of too much light energy compared with the photosynthetic capacity

nucleating agents increase the crystallization rate, in this case ice formation, 100% pure water doesn’t freeze as easily as impure water

mskitty38583
12-06-2007, 12:45 AM
thank you inkcube! i understood THAT perfectly. i have an extensive vocabulary, i just choose not to employ them.( that way people think im stupid! ulter motives). like i said i havent taken my botony 1 yet, but that extensive vocublary was just way over my short little head. ha ha ha. and i dont think that jarred would want a "bunch of nana heads" trompin through his banana patch. i know i would not! how ever the idea of all of us getting together in one place..it might scare the natives... what am i talking about, i am native, and native to fl. hey yah, florida would be good......"it wasnt me officer...it was the banana man"! maybe i can apply for a job while im down there. hee hee hee

magicgreen
12-06-2007, 12:52 AM
Ok Inkcube thats real pretty from the book. Now what I need and I know you can do this...........B-R-E-A-K-I-T Downnnnnn!!!! so i can understand in my amoebic mind what this stuff means; starting with phoyoinhibition. OK GO!!!:doggyandnaner: :doggyandnaner: :doggyandnaner: :doggyandnaner:

inkcube
12-06-2007, 01:30 AM
strong light sometimes causes the reduction of photosynthetic efficiency, a phenomenon referred to as photoinhibition. the susceptibility of plants to photoinhibition depends on the species and growth light-environments. in general, shade plants or low-light grown plants are more susceptible to photoinhibition than sun plants or high-light grown plants – this is why when bringing houseplants outside they need to be set in the shade for a number of weeks before being exposed to full sun. plants will only manufacture enough chlorophyll (photosynthetic protein) that it can use based on the light levels it receives. since photoinhibition has a potential to lower productivity and plant growth, avoidance of photoinhibition is critical for the fitness and survival of plants. basically it’s like a sun stroke for plants, it receives more sun that it can handle and starts to shut down.

magicgreen
12-06-2007, 01:49 AM
Oh yeah thats what iam talkin' about!!!!! So that explains why when I put my beautiful green and purple sikkimensis in the backyard and it didnt get that glaring 3:30pm until evening sun, it retained its beautiful color. Because if too much photosynthesis was goin' on it would bleach out the color. It got sunlight, but it was indirect from approximately 3:30 till dark at maybe 9PM. Break it down so we or shoot ME get it right!!! We are the next Youtube!!! but bananabetter!!!!!!!!:2237: MG Inkcube you got it goin' on!!!!!!!!!!

mskitty38583
12-06-2007, 01:51 AM
understood that one too.:2223: