View Full Version : M. itinerans var. xishuangbannaensis after a few hard frosts
bigdog
11-22-2007, 10:35 PM
OK, not exactly a pretty sight! I've had four hard frosts here at the house, the last one less than a week ago (last Saturday morning was 27F). Went for a little walk around the yard the other day, and noticed that this species had started to grow again already. Really doesn't prove anything yet, but I think it's a good sign.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=6857&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=6857&ppuser=49)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=6858&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=6858&ppuser=49)
The mother pseudostem is still growing also, but it was easier to get pics of the two pups.
51st state
12-03-2007, 05:37 PM
its very early in the winter to be getting cocky... i would definitely sneak a pup off into a protected zone. gets colder down in the tennessee valley than it does over here
bigdog
12-03-2007, 09:02 PM
its very early in the winter to be getting cocky... i would definitely sneak a pup off into a protected zone. gets colder down in the tennessee valley than it does over here
Didn't realize my post was cocky.
I'm very glad for you that your location is warmer than mine (in the winter)! I'm not going to 'sneak' a pup in though. It's either cold-hardy here or it isn't, so saving one for next year would really serve no purpose.
Again, sorry for being so cocky. I thought I was just making an observation. Thanks.
mskitty38583
12-03-2007, 09:15 PM
dont worry bigdog....i live in sparta. 2hrs west and 15 mins south of you. and it has gotten to be freezing here too. tonight it is to be 26 degrees. im glad your trees are showing a resistance to the cold. i wish i had that same resistance!:coldbanana: :coldbanana: this is where id rather be....:islandsharkbanana:. lol i dont think your post are corky. we live in tn. thats how we all are. :rolleyes:
natedogg1026
12-03-2007, 11:01 PM
Can't we all just get along.???:D :2185: :D :dreadlocksnaner: :dreadlocksnaner: :dreadlocksnaner:
magicgreen
12-04-2007, 10:11 AM
Thankyou for the pic' Bigdog. I was wondering..........You dont have any type of protection for that baby all winter out in the cold:coldbanana: ? WELL then all I have to say is I WANT 1 TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:naner7hat: MG
bigdog
12-04-2007, 12:16 PM
I haven't protected it yet, but probably will at least lay some extra mulch around the bases next weekend. I may put a bag-o-leaves around one of the younger pseudostems also.
tony palmer
12-05-2007, 03:13 AM
Big dog, would you keep us updated on your M.itinerans var. xishuangbannaensis, if it survives the winter for you it would be worth a try for me in the UK........Thanks Tony
mrbungalow
12-05-2007, 04:46 AM
I am 99% sure 51st state is only joking around when he said "cocky"! Gotta love british humour! :-)
Thanks for sharing the photo. According to your picture: The stems seem to show good hardiness to cold, almost like m. basjoo. If I was you though, I would not take any chances and wrap it in a thick layer of hay, this way trying to preserve as much stem as possible. I would love to see flowers on your banana next september!
klemmthamm
12-05-2007, 06:32 AM
Frank hope they stay well for you all winter it'd be great to not lose the p-stems and start where they left off next spring :D
And I agree with mr. bungalow, I think 51st state meant no harm by his post... I have a brit friend who lives in Kentucky and his humour (see I even spell it right for our UK members!) is a mixture of Benny Hill and Jeff Foxworthy... He's a hoot but could easily be mistaken in online posts for being rude.
-James-
bigdog
12-06-2007, 03:41 PM
I cut the biggest pup down to about 2 feet tall, and covered it with a bag full of dry leaves. I was very encouraged to see that the outer layers of the pseudostem were still firm, and the center leaf was quite green still. In contrast, Musa cheesmani's outer layers of pseudostem were a bit mushy, and the middle, while still white, had lots of brown around it.
It does remind me of Musa basjoo, and the two are closely related, so that's good news. The texture of the pseudostem is very similar, sort of a tough, fibrous, hard outer layer. Most of the other bananas I have, you can cut through the pseudostem like a hot knife through butter. This one, while still easy to cut through with a knife, is more difficult to wack through than most.
While Musa basjoo did grow some between frosts also, this banana seemed to grow faster than basjoo or sikkimensis (but my sikkimensis is my slowest-growing banana). Time will tell though. It's technicaly not even winter yet! I'm being a bit hopeful because it is such a nice plant, I'd hate to lose it. At the same time, I don't want to go to extensive lengths to protect it because I like to evaluate the true cold-hardiness of Musa species. Someone's gotta do it, right? I can save the pseudostem on a Cavendish with enough protection, but that doesn't mean it's cold-hardy. I'm really only interested in plants that require little to no protection in my zone, because I don't like having to go to all the lenghts to protect stuff. So, if it's cold-hardy that's great, and I'll continue to grow it. But if it isn't cold-hardy, and I save a pup anyway for next year, it would just be an annual that I had to bring inside every year, and I'm tired of bringing plants into the garage (or under the house) for winter.
I'm sure Kev didn't mean anything by saying I was cocky. Probably just British humour, like several mentioned. No hard feelings! And as far as the TN Valley being colder than the UK in the winter, I'm very well aware of that. It's also colder than Central Alabama or Eastern NC in the winter, and I am under no delusions about my zone. Long-term (1971-2006), this is a zone 7a, bordering on zone 7b (avg. extreme min. low is around 4.8F). Most years we can expect a zone 8a low minimum temp, like we have for the past 4 winters, but it can dip into the single digits every few years, and even below zero (Fahrenheit) temps can happen (although not since 1996). I have done my homework on the climate, and I guess I do tend to get a bit defensive when someone who doesn't live anywhere near here tries to educate me on it. I should probably just laugh it off to myself and let it go. Apologies to Kev if I offended him (I don't try to offend anybody).
Randy4ut
12-06-2007, 04:44 PM
BigDog,
I ain't tired of toting nanners in, yet!!! If you want to adopt one of your pups out on this, let me know and I will sign the papers!!! Would love to add it to my collection... I am interested in learning, by your experimentations, its true cold hardiness....
Keep us posted!!!
Randy
bigdog
12-06-2007, 06:09 PM
BigDog,
I ain't tired of toting nanners in, yet!!!
Hah! You've seen my crawl space, and know how big I am. Trust me, give it a couple more years and you'll be so over it. I guarantee you if you had to lug them under my crawl space you would anyway!
If you want to adopt one of your pups out on this, let me know and I will sign the papers!!! Would love to add it to my collection...
If it comes back next spring, you are second on the list.
I am interested in learning, by your experimentations, its true cold hardiness....
Keep us posted!!!
Randy
Hey, let me do the dirty work eh? LOL! No problem. I like doing it.
magicgreen
12-07-2007, 03:51 PM
Bigdog thanks for the post and pictures! :moosenaner: Without those I wouldnt have known this was my next baby! I'll start hunting her down today! I would like to pronounce this species name. Can anyone break down the pronounciation ?if you dont mind.:04: Have a great day!:2623: magicgreen
Randy4ut
12-07-2007, 05:07 PM
Hah! You've seen my crawl space, and know how big I am. Trust me, give it a couple more years and you'll be so over it. I guarantee you if you had to lug them under my crawl space you would anyway!
If it comes back next spring, you are second on the list.
Hey, let me do the dirty work eh? LOL! No problem. I like doing it.
Say the word and I will have the adoption papers drawn up!!!! I will give you unsupervised visitation anytime as long as the two of you stay in my yard where I could keep an eye on you... Seriously, BigDog, thanks and let me know...
Randy
bigdog
12-07-2007, 09:32 PM
I would like to pronounce this species name. Can anyone break down the pronounciation ?if you dont mind.:04: Have a great day!:2623: magicgreen
Here's the best I can come up with for the pronunciation:
Shee-shwong-bah-nah-en-sis.
That's pretty close anyway. The "X" is prounounced "sh".
Of course, you could just call it var. gigantea!
magicgreen
12-07-2007, 11:46 PM
Alrighty :naner7hat: , Thanks so much Bigdog. Is Gigantea another name for this banana?
bigdog
12-08-2007, 04:09 PM
Alrighty :naner7hat: , Thanks so much Bigdog. Is Gigantea another name for this banana?
Musa itinerans var. Gigantea is what it was known as before being renamed.
bigdog
12-14-2007, 05:54 PM
Well, after the new growth was nipped again, we had a few days with highs in the high 60s and low 70s, and this banana started taking off again. Here it is as of this afternoon. This is all new growth in less than a week. Just how cold-hardy it is remains to be seen, but I think that it is safe to say that it doesn't mind cool weather.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7199&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7199&ppuser=49)
magicgreen
12-14-2007, 06:28 PM
Very good! Here in Ohio, it is 35degs. So when i get mine it"ll need protection! I still want it! :0513: MG
microfarmer
12-14-2007, 10:42 PM
If it comes back next spring, you are second on the list.
Can I be 3rd on your list? I promise to leave it out in the cold for my own trials...:08:
bigdog
12-14-2007, 11:24 PM
There isn't actually a list. If it survives the winter, one pup is going to a friend in Alabama who has given me some great rare stuff in the past, and another is going to go to the UT Gardens. If it is prolific enough, Randy will probably get one also, but other than those three there is not a list. Maybe in a couple of years when I have so much of it I don't know what to do with it and am mowing over pups in the yard I will consider selling a few, lol.
mskitty38583
12-14-2007, 11:30 PM
in a galaxy far, far away..lives the banana farmer. the imperial army is out to capture this rebel for his resistance to leaving his bananas out in the cold, despite what the empire has deemed to be..... an act of treason! you are doomed "luke bananaman!" but it seems the closer that darth musa gets to luke bananaman, all darth musa hears is "your not my musa!" tune in next week for the continuing saga of "BANANA WARS":hiddenbanana: .
magicgreen
12-15-2007, 08:56 AM
That was cute mskitty! :0513:Magicgreen
51st state
12-16-2007, 03:29 PM
I'm semi-amazed that the growth is kicking in again. Mind you I've noticed my Helens hybrid and some of the Sikki's are still pushing on sporadically in the poly tunnel.
Its kind of hard to get climate data for Yunnan but my guess is that its not dissimilar to some parts of NE India and Burma.
Oh and no offence meant by the way...with regular unleaded gas over here at £1.07 = $2.14 a litre, you need a sense of humor!!!
Kev
Taylor
12-16-2007, 03:43 PM
I am going to feel dumb if you already answered this, but where did you get this plant/seeds?
bigdog
12-16-2007, 11:16 PM
I am pretty amazed at its tenacity...so far. Who knows, it could be a pile of mush by February, which seems like a really long way away right now! The only other banana that is really doing anything right now is Musa basjoo. Actually, they aren't growing at all tonight, considering it is 29F right now, lol. I am going to mulch the base this week, something I should have done already, but we have been fairly mild so I haven't bothered with it.
Taylor, I got it from a friend in Florida, but if I told you I'd have to...well, you know. :2723:
douglas gray
01-12-2008, 06:25 PM
hello all,
you all seem pretty knowledgable, so as a novice, I was wondering if you can spare some advice to a newcomer....from UK, but don't hold that against me :) above thread). I've read which Banana are cold hardy but will they be ok for wet weather ? we get down to 0 degrees in winter, but the problem is the constant rain. My current banana looked like it may have been starting to rot before I wrapped it up for winter because it was raining nearly every day ?
Also, it may sound really novice but what exactly is mulch (leaves???)
thanks
Doug
mskitty38583
01-12-2008, 06:52 PM
mulch: mulch can be a tree thats been cut down and put through a chipper and allower to 'cure' for about 6 months. mulch can be shredded up leaves that you run over with the lawn mower. it can also be pine needles from pine trees. you could even use shredded up paper( as long as its not glossy paper... pictures,etc) i wouldnt advise you using shredded paper as a mulch though. id only use it for your compost pile. your neighbors might complaine. it is pretty much any organic matter that can be used for decoration and insulation of plants. thats the best way i can describe it for you. maybe someone else has a better definition of mulch. it also depends on where you live and whats avaliable.
douglas gray
01-12-2008, 10:00 PM
hey, thanks for the advice, I appreciate your time. Do you just throw it around the base or does it have to be caged up first then packed around ??
mskitty38583
01-12-2008, 11:23 PM
are you talking about for winter protection? or are you wanting to know for like summertime? im not to sure about using chipped mulch(trees) for the winter protection. but you could use the leaves for winter protection with the cage method.
Panaroma
01-14-2008, 04:59 AM
If you want to exlude rootrot, then mix lots of sand and compost into the soil. Also plant your banana on 30 cm. higher groundlevel. They should be just fine in rainy UK.
For M. Itinerans, I've read the leaves remain green to about -2* C. That way the cells don't explode by light freeze. As long as the green leaves or still on my bananas (Sikkimensis and Co.) nothing rots.
Actually, it's the (heavy) freezing that grabs them by the throat. :-)
Once frostbitten, provide them with a roof, so those dead cells can dry out. From what I understand that's not your problem, right? ;-)
Succes
Zac in NC
01-26-2008, 03:20 PM
Here's the best I can come up with for the pronunciation:
Shee-shwong-bah-nah-en-sis.
That's pretty close anyway. The "X" is prounounced "sh".
Of course, you could just call it var. gigantea!
I had a prof in College who was chinese with an X name(Xiang) and it was a zh sound. I say
zhee-shwong-bah-nah-en-sis
LOL
I had this one here in NC in the ground from Gabe and left it, hoping my dad would water it and the new sikkimensis Red Tiger seedling I had in the ground and it died in the drought. All the others did alright though.
Zac
bigdog
01-26-2008, 11:48 PM
I had a prof in College who was chinese with an X name(Xiang) and it was a zh sound. I say
zhee-shwong-bah-nah-en-sis
LOL
I had this one here in NC in the ground from Gabe and left it, hoping my dad would water it and the new sikkimensis Red Tiger seedling I had in the ground and it died in the drought. All the others did alright though.
Zac
Well, I'll take the Chinese guy's pronunciation over mine, lol! Hayes actually told me how to pronounce it, I was saying it as "Zee-shwong..."
Bummer about yours dying in the drought. Mine did not do too well in the massive heat wave back in August. In fact, leaves burned and the pseudostem started peeling itself back slowly. I think I just have it in too much sun. If it lives through the winter, I may move part of it to a shadier location. That is, IF it lives...
bikoro child
01-27-2008, 05:37 AM
Hi ,here inthis area the temperature is about 10 to 15°C in those times but only 0°C or less in the morning..Today I removed the protections of the bananas and i find that all are making new leaves even the musellas which are told to be much longer than other species...You can see on the pics what kind of mulch I use...about temperatures I had -7°C or -8°C in November
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7711 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7712&ppuser=1162)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7712 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7713&ppuser=1162)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7713 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7664&ppuser=1162)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7714 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7715&ppuser=1162)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7716 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7714&ppuser=1162)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7715 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7711&ppuser=1162)
mskitty38583
01-27-2008, 09:56 AM
lovely flower.glad to see it has done well in the winter for you.
bikoro child
01-27-2008, 10:10 AM
thanks, the interest is that maybe it's possible in cold areas to bring edible bananas throw the winter times...
magicgreen
01-27-2008, 10:57 AM
BigDog can you give an update on the xishuangbannaensis you have overwintering in the ground. Iam very curious how this banana is doing since your 1st post on it!
bigdog
01-27-2008, 07:24 PM
BigDog can you give an update on the xishuangbannaensis you have overwintering in the ground. Iam very curious how this banana is doing since your 1st post on it!
Oh, it's complete mush, lol! No, I don't know how it is really. The base still feels firm, but most of the pseudostem is completely dry and dessicated now. We have had some cold temps here in my cold hole, reaching 6F twice, 7F three times, and I know of at least 2 days below freezing. Don't think we have had consecutive days below freezing, but it was close. My Musa basjoo is lying on the ground though as well.
We'll just have to wait until April to see if it has survived. I'm very excited to see how it has done, and how early it comes back (if it does). If it doesn't make it, I have another Musa itinerans form to try out next year that grows almost as tall as this one, but is native to much higher elevations! Stay tuned...
island cassie
01-27-2008, 07:50 PM
Great pictures bikoro, and that huge bud and flower - just amazing. A real showstopper - wish I had one like that.
Cassie
Taylor
01-27-2008, 08:40 PM
Frank,
What are your lows? You are one whole zone lower than me...It'd be interesting to see the difference it would make. All the best-
bigdog
01-28-2008, 04:15 PM
Frank,
What are your lows? You are one whole zone lower than me...It'd be interesting to see the difference it would make. All the best-
Taylor,
Knoxville's airport (TYS), our official recording station, has reached 11F for an absolute minimum low this year, and 12F on another occasion. I am at a higher elevation than TYS, and in a bit of a valley on the ridge, so I get cold-air drainage in addition to the colder temps from higher elevation. My absolute minimum low has been around 6F (twice), with a couple of 7F mornings also, but my thermometer is not in a good placement. I need to set it up correctly for more accurate temperature readings. I think I'm actually a couple degrees warmer than the temps I've recorded, but still a couple degrees colder than the airport. We are a long-term zone 7a here, really bordering on zone 7b. The last five winters, assuming we don't reach single digits this winter, have been zone 8a winters. This winter, we've had 2 days (non-consecutive) with a high below freezing, last winter was only one day, and the winter before that we had zero days with a high below freezing.
With bananas, a whole zone makes a huge difference! I mean, they grow Sabal palmettos in VA Beach Taylor, LOL! You guys can grow quite a bit more than I can here.
Zac in NC
01-28-2008, 05:23 PM
Well, I'll take the Chinese guy's pronunciation over mine, lol! Hayes actually told me how to pronounce it, I was saying it as "Zee-shwong..."
Bummer about your dying in the drought. Mine did not do too well in the massive heat wave back in August. In fact, leaves burned and the pseudostem started peeling itself back slowly. I think I just have it in too much sun. If it lives through the winter, I may move part of it to a shadier location. That is, IF it lives...
Well, She is one of the top world Experts in Cornus(dogwoods). I even think she's originally from Yunnan province.
Zac
Taylor
01-28-2008, 05:27 PM
Taylor,
Knoxville's airport (TYS), our official recording station, has reached 11F for an absolute minimum low this year, and 12F on another occasion. I am at a higher elevation than TYS, and in a bit of a valley on the ridge, so I get cold-air drainage in addition to the colder temps from higher elevation. My absolute minimum low has been around 6F (twice), with a couple of 7F mornings also, but my thermometer is not in a good placement. I need to set it up correctly for more accurate temperature readings. I think I'm actually a couple degrees warmer than the temps I've recorded, but still a couple degrees colder than the airport. We are a long-term zone 7a here, really bordering on zone 7b. The last five winters, assuming we don't reach single digits this winter, have been zone 8a winters. This winter, we've had 2 days (non-consecutive) with a high below freezing, last winter was only one day, and the winter before that we had zero days with a high below freezing.
With bananas, a whole zone makes a huge difference! I mean, they grow Sabal palmettos in VA Beach Taylor, LOL! You guys can grow quite a bit more than I can here.
Thanks for the info Frank. It is amazing how many Sabal Palmettos they haul in here that die due to neglect and poor timing. I've been trying to get my hands on one but to no avail...yet ;)
Our low this year was 21 and that is probably as low was it will get. That is a solid 9a winter, same as last year.
51st state
05-25-2008, 03:31 PM
Hi Frank
How did the 'Xis' end up after the winter?
I've just had another one arrive from Germany and wondered whether to plan on keeping it out or not
Kev
bigdog
05-25-2008, 11:24 PM
Hi Kev. I now believe that this is Musa itinerans var. itinerans, not var. xishuangbannaensis, due to one from the same clone (in a different state) flowering at just over ten feet tall.
However, it is growing like mad! I protected one pseudostem, and left three others unprotected, including the main one. The main one died back to the corm, but the other three all grew back from the same apical meristem. I started another thread about this somewhere. Fantastic, cold-hardy banana!!!!!
Chironex
05-28-2008, 01:01 PM
Just one small correction to the pronunciation, the Xi is pronounced in a shorter tone like Shi with the corners of the mouth drawn back like you would when saying "shin". Good job otherwise Bigdog! (I am studying Chinese) Now I can see all of you trying to make this sound, it's fun to imagine the faces everyone is making!!!
magicgreen
05-28-2008, 10:25 PM
Yep Chironex, Thats what I was doing! hahahahahahahahahhahhahahahha!!
Chironex
10-26-2008, 09:49 PM
Markku Hakinen has recently released a paper about the Chinese M. itinerans entitled: "Musa itinerans (Musaceae) and Its Interspecific Taxa in China" This has excellent charts and photos to aid in identifying the specific variations between Musa itinerans var. itinerans; var. annamica, var, chinensis; var. guangdongensis; var. lechangensis and xishuangbannaensis. I am hopeful that the 'Gigantea' that I bought recently is in fact, Xishuangbannensis. I have two plants of it, so hopefully it will survive. It is noted in this research that xishuangbannensis is cold hardy and can tolerate seasonal frosts in the upper end of its range. (up to 1600 meters ASL) It is second in height only to ingens - growing to 12 m. Another interesting thing is that pups can be as far as 5 m. away from the mother plant. The corms can be a meter tall and half a meter wide to survive winter drought during the dry season, though it grows in moist, fertile soil much the same as ingens.
Here is a link to the article: http://hua.huh.harvard.edu/china/novon/novo-18-01-50.pdf
griphuz
10-27-2008, 06:32 AM
I've had contact with Markku Hakinen and he thought xishuangbannaensis was not grown outside of Yunnan in culture yet...?
Kind regards,
Remko.
Chironex
10-27-2008, 12:41 PM
That I don't know, but he sent the article to me. I have had to delete the attachement due to copyright concerns, but nevertheless we will have to see whether or not we actually have Xishuangbannaensis or just another form of M. itinerans.
For those of you who wish to read the article, it is in the free public domain at this link:
http://hua.huh.harvard.edu/china/novon/novo-18-01-50.pdf
griphuz
10-27-2008, 12:48 PM
That's true.
So the only supposed source for this species is the 'Gigantea' seeds?
Are they still sold nowadays? (where did you get 'em?)
Kind regards,
Remko.
Chironex
11-23-2008, 11:20 PM
I've had contact with Markku Hakinen and he thought xishuangbannaensis was not grown outside of Yunnan in culture yet...?
Kind regards,
Remko.
I have a couple of banana plants that are supposed to be var. xishuangbannaensis, but it's too soon to say whether they are the 'real deal.' Once this is determined, they will be in culture, otherwise, they are simply another M. itinerans.
I also have a promised corm of Musa Tibet and another of Musa Yangtze coming this spring. (actually, the person I am getting it from refers to it as M. 'Yangtze Valley' so I don't know if they are one and the same or not.
The hard part about TC is deciding whether to grow out the plant and work from the pups, or just go right into TC from the get go.
Still want to get my hands on one of those 'India form' to put into culture.
griphuz
11-24-2008, 05:05 AM
I think you mean itinerans in stead of ventricosum :)
I have the 'indian form' and it produces pups that run down! (in stead of sideways)
I discovered that when I dug them out for overwintering in an unheated greenhouse. Unfortunately I damaged the pups doing this, no knowing it would grow in this fashion. Hopefully they'll make more pups, so I can get some more plants of this species.
I have the Musa 'Tibet' also, and at first I thought it was just a clone of basjoo, but now I can see some differences, so I guess it's really something else. Yangste I have never seen, but is on my wishlist ofcourse.
tony palmer
11-24-2008, 12:12 PM
Hi Scot,
Yangtze and Tibet look to be the same Musa to me the Yangtze river valley were Yangtze was collected goes up into Tibet! There nice looking bananas though and I would love to know what species they are I don’t think they look like Itinerans though.
Sunshine seeds were selling (Indian form) that’s were mine came from, if you Email them in English they will reply in English.
Chironex
11-24-2008, 05:41 PM
I think you mean itinerans in stead of ventricosum :)
I have the 'indian form' and it produces pups that run down! (in stead of sideways)
I discovered that when I dug them out for overwintering in an unheated greenhouse. Unfortunately I damaged the pups doing this, no knowing it would grow in this fashion. Hopefully they'll make more pups, so I can get some more plants of this species.
I have the Musa 'Tibet' also, and at first I thought it was just a clone of basjoo, but now I can see some differences, so I guess it's really something else. Yangste I have never seen, but is on my wishlist ofcourse.
My bad, yes M. itinerans is what I meant. Too many things going on at once. Thanks.
Save one of those pups of India form for me when you have multiples of them.
Chironex
11-24-2008, 05:45 PM
Hi Scot,
Yangtze and Tibet look to be the same Musa to me the Yangtze river valley were Yangtze was collected goes up into Tibet! There nice looking bananas though and I would love to know what species they are I don’t think they look like Itinerans though.
Sunshine seeds were selling (Indian form) that’s were mine came from, if you Email them in English they will reply in English.
Awesome! Thanks Tony, hope they grow true to type! Have you any experience with growing them from seed?
As to the Tibet and Yangtze Valley being the same, I will hopefully be able to say for certain next summer. Either way, they will be nice to have in the collection. Then, off to the lab they go. (pups I mean)
tony palmer
11-24-2008, 06:50 PM
Scot I grew my (Indian form) from seed I didn’t find them easy though 6 germinated but 4 died, the two I was left with are ok and growing nicely now but I think were I went wrong was I started them of in December when I should of waited till spring.
bigdog
11-24-2008, 11:08 PM
I've noticed that some of the rhizomes run deeper than others on my Musa itinerans. I dug a couple of pups before our first frost, and discovered a rhizome that was much deeper than the one I was intending to cut. No telling how many feet away it was going to pop up! So far, my 'India Form' has sent up four pups, no more than about 3 feet away from the parent pseudostem. I had three seeds germinate, and lost the first one because it just wasn't vigorous at all. The other two seeds started shooting up immediately though. Seems that there were (are) a certain percentage of seeds in that batch that were very weak.
I think I can say with some confidence that 'Yangtze' doesn't really look like M. itinerans to me. My young plant doesn't remind me of itinerans at all. Can't wait to get it in the ground in the spring and see what it looks like in my yard!
Frank
BTW...in keeping in line with the title of this thread, my M. itinerans stems have experienced some very heavy frosts and record cold for this time of year. I've made it down to 12F so far already! Yikes. Knoxville airport (TYS) made it down to 15F, but I am in a cold hole. I haven't protected them yet, but do plan on it here in a few days. I'm hoping for a flower next year.
Chironex
11-25-2008, 12:41 AM
I've noticed that some of the rhizomes run deeper than others on my Musa itinerans. I dug a couple of pups before our first frost, and discovered a rhizome that was much deeper than the one I was intending to cut. No telling how many feet away it was going to pop up!.
I wonder if they developed this trait for cold hardiness?
51st state
11-25-2008, 11:24 AM
Hi Guys
my Yangtse came from the same source as Tony's. It was labelled as 'Yangtse Valley' but it is Yangtse (which I understand is the same as M. Tibet). My india form was too small for the UK winter and is growing quite nicely in the study. I look forward to seeing how it does in the ground next year. I guess I'm the only one in europe to have killed not one but two Xishuangbannaensis (one wasn't my fault) :-).
get that TC lab sorted Scot :ha:
tony palmer
11-25-2008, 12:11 PM
Kev yours Franks Marks and the one I have all came from Peter and they have good provenance because Peter got his original Yangtze from Martin gibbons, Martin and Tobias Spanner collected Yangtze in the Yangtze river valley in China, but Yangtze isn’t its true botanical name its just a name they gave it because they don’t know its true botanical name.
buffy
12-02-2008, 09:35 PM
I guess I'm the only one in europe to have killed not one but two Xishuangbannaensis (one wasn't my fault) :-).
I got you beat. I've killed 4 small Musa itinerans var. xishuangbannensis corms. I received them dried up with mold problems. Couldn't salvage them. But of course, I'm in Texas.
Chironex
12-03-2008, 04:44 PM
I got you beat. I've killed 4 small Musa itinerans var. xishuangbannensis corms. I received them dried up with mold problems. Couldn't salvage them. But of course, I'm in Texas.
Where are you getting these? I think that I have one or two of them, but won't know for sure until it grows out and pups. I would like to go in with you next time you get one. PM me if you are planning another purchase.
bigdog
12-03-2008, 07:11 PM
In keeping with the title of this thread...
My Musa itinerans var. itinerans stems felt nice and solid today, and we have had many, many nights below freezing. In fact, I have recorded a low of 12F in November (the official low at the airport was 15F)! A couple of other high teens, and a whole bunch of temps in the 20s Fahrenheit. So, I cut the stems down a few notches and took a look in the middle. The middle was still as green as could be. I have protected them this afternoon, and will post some pics of my complicated protection scheme later on. I'm hoping for a couple of flowers in the spring! One of the neat attributes of this species is that it doesn't take too long for the fruits and seeds to mature, because of the cool nature of its native habitat. Maybe I can try to cross it with my Musa basjoo, if it flowers also.
Oh, and I sliced into my Musa itinerans 'India Form' pseudostems today also, and found the same result! Green, living tissue in the middle. So, I protected them also. I have a feeling that it will be close to the same hardiness as var. itinerans is.
buffy
12-03-2008, 09:45 PM
Where are you getting these? I think that I have one or two of them, but won't know for sure until it grows out and pups. I would like to go in with you next time you get one. PM me if you are planning another purchase.
This is not an easy path I'm traveling. There is no easy source. In fact, I know of no one who is simply offering it for sale currently. I'll keep chugging along. Until I have some success, I don't want to get anyone's hopes up. After I've figured it all out and negotiate some relationships further, I'll see what I can do for others. Who knows, by that time, some others may have sources. I've been at this for over a year.
buffy
12-03-2008, 09:48 PM
In keeping with the title of this thread....
Uh...dude... it does say xishuangbannaensis. Just picking at you. I'm still pissed Fulmer beat my Dores one last time. Where's Cutler when I need him. ;)
bigdog
12-04-2008, 12:13 AM
Yeah, I know. I don't think that there is a way to edit the title of a thread, because I have tried.
I'm going to miss Fulmer, and Tennessee fans will in a few years also, unless Kiffin has some kind of incredible early success. I hope he does! Hey, at least Vandy is going to a bowl this year! Tennessee is not.
buffy
12-04-2008, 08:10 AM
I can't make up my mind on Kiffin. He's probably gonna be feast or famine for the UT faithful. Only time will tell. And...xishuangbannaensis, itinerans, pseudostem....to stay on topic. :)
RobG7aChattTN
12-20-2008, 10:54 PM
This is the first year that I tried to store large domant bananas. So far the one's in storage look pretty good. I've got Orinoccos from Frank (bigdog), some Raja Puri that always make it through but not the p-stem so no fruit, and one that I bought off of eBay as an itinerans that isn't that I'm just curious to see what it ends up being. Meanwhile, I have a Siam Ruby and two unknown seedlings in a heated terrarium that look good so far. I don't want to make a habit of bringing stuff in, but maybe onece in awhile, right?
bigdog
12-21-2008, 12:14 AM
Rob, you should see the bananas that I left in the garden to freeze and die, lol! I am slowly phasing out the bigger Orinocos for Dwarf Orinoco, as well as other dwarf cultivars.
RobG7aChattTN
12-21-2008, 10:16 AM
I heavily protected the Orinoccos the first winter and they survived...then the next winter I didn't protect and they still survived. This year I decided to bring them in to try and get fruit. If they don't fruit then they are just like haveing basjoo that struggle with cold and not worth haveing around. I'll probably phase them out in favor of Viente Cohol if it proves to fruit more reliably. I really don't want to get in the habit of bringing stuff inside every winter. Hopefully it will just be Siam Ruby and Viente Cohol in the future (until comething else cool comes along ie. Ae Ae).
Basjoofriend
01-01-2009, 12:00 PM
Hi bigdog,
if your basjoo and xishangbannaensis are flowering at the same time and you are getting fertile seeds then I want some seeds from you for my hardy fruit banana breeding program in Brazil.
Best wishes
Basjoofriend
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