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Blue Java
09-16-2007, 01:25 PM
I was just wondering if any of you grow Organically?

What type of fertilizers do you use and are there any
pests or bugs that are particular to Banana plants?
Or even ones that will harm my Bananas.

The food I do grow for myself is all pesticide free and
I only use natural fertilizers. But I have never grown
a banana plant before and looking for advice from
other Organic growers.

momoese
09-16-2007, 02:35 PM
I only grow organically. You can check my photo gallery for pictures of the various bananas I grow.

When planting I mix in steer or chicken manure, green sand, sul po mag, worm castings, EB Stone organic plant food, and lots of compost. I keep my beds amended with steer manure, compost, sul po mag, and organic plant food. I have never had any issues with bad insects or disease. For potted plants I feed them a steer manure/compost tea with organic plant food mixed in.

Nothing on my property receives any chemical foods or pesticides, not even the grass! I have two dogs and don't want them getting sick from any nasty chemicals or weed killers. :doggyandnaner:

Blue Java
09-16-2007, 04:22 PM
Very lovely plants you have there!

And thanks for the information...though i am not sure what
sul po mag is. You all have been so helpful already, it still
amazes me that a whole forum can be dedicated to bananas!

Not that they arent special, because they are gorgeous!
I just never would have thought!

momoese
09-16-2007, 05:40 PM
Sul-Po-Mag (0-0-22)

Sul-Po-Mag also known as K-Mag NATURAL is the commercial name for the mineral otherwise known as sulfate of potash-magnesia (langbeinite). Contains 22% soluble potash, 22% sulfur and 11% magnesium. A quick release source of potassium, Sul-Po-Mag also makes a good addition to soils that lack sulfur. Broadcast 5-10 lbs. Sul-Po-Mag per 1,000 sq. ft.


Now you know!

Fcastro
09-16-2007, 08:09 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking Sul-Po-Mag was some kind of exotic Asian gardening ingredient that would only be available in L.A. or some other big cities. Is it a one time thing or do you apply it regularly ?

momoese
09-16-2007, 08:19 PM
I'm not sure how often it should be applied but I usually do it twice a year along with the other organic stuff. I sometimes will apply manure 3-4 times a year and compost when it looks like the soil in need of some help. I don't come back with worm castings because I have tons of red wigglers in the soil doing it for me!

NANAMAN
09-16-2007, 09:11 PM
I only grow organically. You can check my photo gallery for pictures of the various bananas I grow.

When planting I mix in steer or chicken manure, green sand, sul po mag, worm castings, EB Stone organic plant food, and lots of compost. I keep my beds amended with steer manure, compost, sul po mag, and organic plant food. I have never had any issues with bad insects or disease. For potted plants I feed them a steer manure/compost tea with organic plant food mixed in.

Nothing on my property receives any chemical foods or pesticides, not even the grass! I have two dogs and don't want them getting sick from any nasty chemicals or weed killers. :doggyandnaner:


Wow, sounds like anything should grow well in that soil! I wish there was a local source for organic supplies in my area, I would exclusively use organics on my bananas if there were. I've been purchasing the ones I do get, through mail order, and the shipping rates are outrageous.

momoese
09-16-2007, 11:00 PM
Wow, sounds like anything should grow well in that soil! I wish there was a local source for organic supplies in my area, I would exclusively use organics on my bananas if there were. I've been purchasing the ones I do get, through mail order, and the shipping rates are outrageous.

I'm sure you can find compost and manure nearby right? Is it the other things you have mail-ordered?

NANAMAN
09-17-2007, 08:59 AM
Yea, it's mostly soil amendments like( Azomite, K-Mag, crab shell meal, etc..). But, I have no truck, and have found no one who delivers any manure or compost. Plenty of places want to sell me top soil or mulch, but nothing any good.

Annie6078
09-17-2007, 09:25 AM
Ok, so I'm really showing my ignorance here:

I was told bananas were heavy feeders, so they should be fed with something akin to Miracle Grow every 2 weeks -- plus some Osmocote when first planting out in the spring. I would love to go organic, but don't really know anything about amending soil except for my adding sand & bone meal to my garden soil a few years ago to break up the clay. I just dug up the packed soil, added the stuff, and then turned it all over to mix it in.

It sounds like you amend your soil before planting with the organic items you listed. But, would anyone be kind enough to explain to me how to do that here in my area where I plant in late spring & bring in for winter ... do I dig up the entire bed (again, we're clay soil here) and amend with those items before planting ... and/or how do you keep them fed thru the year instead of MG every 2 wks.?

Thanks in advance for any advice,
Andrea

the flying dutchman
09-17-2007, 09:35 AM
Hi Andrea, we have 2 pages in the WIKI wich are interesting to read.

http://www.bananas.org/wiki/Info:Soil

http://www.bananas.org/wiki/Info:Fertilizer



Ron

Steve in France
09-17-2007, 09:52 AM
Annie , I had very sand soil in my French garden , I found the best way to improve the soil was to let the Worms and Bacteria do the job. I top mulched with horse manure about three times a year. Top feeding I find best for the plant . It took about two years to get great soil , I do use some high nitrogen lawn fertilizer to help the cellulose material in the mulch break down, I also top dress with Bark Mulch to keep the garden looking good.
Later
Steve

momoese
09-17-2007, 11:26 AM
how do you keep them fed thru the year instead of MG every 2 wks.?


I just don't see the need for that kind of feeding regimen. My plants do great with what I give them. As I explained in my previous post, they get fed through out the year organically. I have also noticed that they have really strong root systems and don't blow over in heavy winds. They might grow faster and have more fruit if I fed them MG, but then they wouldn't be organic and that's really what I'm after is organic food and being a good care taker of this little piece of earth I have to grow on.

Annie6078
09-17-2007, 12:08 PM
Thank you all Mitchel, Steve & Ron ... your time is MUCH appreciated.

Whew! There is certainly a lot to learn about organic gardening! I know my mother used to be heavily into that when I was a little girl in the 60s -- I even remember seeing issues of Organic Gardening magazine & their books on our shelves, but she had a severe stroke at 39 (when I was 8) which ended her gardening career, so I was sadly never able to learn from her experience.

We grew up with my grandma & great aunt into holistic medicine & Mom her organic gardening -- and I truly prefer holistic/organic whenever possible 0 I agree with wanting to be a good steward of the earth we have. However, I find that working FT & taking care of mom has sadly left me next to no time for researching how to compost & garden organically.

Boy, this thread makes me reminisce: I remember Mom always prattling on about manure & her compost & how she used to take us along to a place where she shoveled her own manure for free. Man, we HATED it because it was near an incinerator & the smell around there was so horrible that the swings we played on nearby weren't enough to distract us from the stench :) -- wish I'd understood then how valuable it would have been to learn at her side tho.

Thanks again.
Andrea

Bamboo Conne'iseur
09-17-2007, 08:04 PM
I myself only grow organically, so I thought I would add something. You might want to be careful with the cow and steer manure, because recent reports have indicated that the hormones that are fed to them leech into their feces, which in turn can be taken up by the plant. Of course if you happen to know a farmer that does it naturally, there is nothing to worry about. For myself, I will go with worm castings, guano and some types of chicken manure, which has the highest amount of nitrogen found in manure. Also, steer manure is high in salts, so if you apply too much, you might end up having a problem with nutrient lockup, and uptake. Having said that, I noticed with other fruit, that adding a good soil remineralizer like either azomite, or kelp meal, really improves the flavor of the fruit. Not to mention that the plant itself is much stronger, and more vigorous.

momoese
09-17-2007, 09:40 PM
Thanks Aaron, the manure I use is labeled as organic but i'll look into that and adjust accordingly!

Dean W.
07-18-2008, 11:56 AM
Great thread! I'm debating on what I can feed my bananas organically. I have plenty of compost on hand. I have fish emulsion, but it's low in potasium. I also have worm castings, Bat guano and some organic lawn fertilizer (8-2-4).

Bananaman88
07-18-2008, 12:24 PM
I sometime use an organic fertilizer from a company called Medina. They sell it at Lowe's. It is a dry fertilizer and it stinks up the yard for a day or two but then the smell goes away. It is primarily chicken manure, I believe. It contains some micronutrients as well.

Dean W.
07-18-2008, 01:12 PM
Thanks, Brent, I've heard of Medina before. I'll have to go to Lowe's tommorow.

natedogg1026
07-18-2008, 01:26 PM
This is a side shot of my tropical bed. Pure organic soil. Local compost made mainly of leaves and grass. I've had great luck with it and it's free!! It's great in the summer. It holds so much moisture that watering when it gets hot is not much of a problem.:03:http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11339&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11339&ppuser=982)

Bananaman88
07-18-2008, 01:30 PM
Nice pic, Nate!

Dean W.
07-18-2008, 01:30 PM
Great picture, Nate! I have 5 compost piles myself. I use leaves, coffee grounds, table scraps, egg shells, and chicken manure.

mskitty38583
07-18-2008, 02:51 PM
oh nate thats lovely! i have my compost piles in big huge planting buckets that way they are moveable. i use grass, fruit peels, egg shells, veggie scrape that arent cooked, newspaper(non glossy),coffee grounds and the filters and sometimes i throw mulch in there.

Richard
07-18-2008, 06:09 PM
So I'm guessing that by "organic" you folks mean "non-synthetic" ?

For example, Neem Oil is a non-synthetic pest control material. It has been processed (distilled a bit) so that the concentration is the same in each bottle. Does it still count as "organic" this way?

Alfalfa meal has a rating of 2-0-3 and is nothing but finely chopped alfalfa. It takes 1.3 cubic feet (9.5 gallons) of it per year to feed a full-size crop-producing fruit tree. Alfalfa extract is a 14-0-21 liquid that only takes 1 cup a month to feed a crop-producing fruit tree -- but it is created by a series of chemical treatments, one of which involves Benzene. Does it still count as "organic" ?

Also, Potassium Nitrate and Sul-Po-Mag are minerals that are mined directly out of the earth, often crushed and then mechanically sorted to get a standard level of purity. There is no chemical processing. Do these count as "organic" ?

The reason I ask is because in California there is a completely different standard for "organic farming". According to the State, it is "methods which do not significantly impact the environment". What do you think about this definition ?

momoese
07-18-2008, 06:44 PM
So I'm guessing that by "organic" you folks mean "non-synthetic" ?

Yes. Also no GMO's. You can grow a GMO seed organically but it's still not organic.

For example, Neem Oil is a non-synthetic pest control material. It has been processed (distilled a bit) so that the concentration is the same in each bottle. Does it still count as "organic" this way?

If the Neem tree is organically grown then yes. I use organic Neem oil for organic flea control on my animals.

Alfalfa meal has a rating of 2-0-3 and is nothing but finely chopped alfalfa. It takes 1.3 cubic feet (9.5 gallons) of it per year to feed a full-size crop-producing fruit tree. Alfalfa extract is a 14-0-21 liquid that only takes 1 cup a month to feed a crop-producing fruit tree -- but it is created by a series of chemical treatments, one of which involves Benzene. Does it still count as "organic" ?

Again was it grown organically? And Benzene is a known carcinogen so I'm not too sure on that one. I'd have to say no, not organic.

Also, Potassium Nitrate and Sul-Po-Mag are minerals that are mined directly out of the earth, often crushed and then mechanically sorted to get a standard level of purity. There is no chemical processing. Do these count as "organic" ?

Yes

The reason I ask is because in California there is a completely different standard for "organic farming". According to the State, it is "methods which do not significantly impact the environment". What do you think about this definition ?

Bogus if it's anything like USDA's labeling system.

Richard
07-18-2008, 07:44 PM
Momoese, thank you once again for your answers. It is a huge help to me in understanding consumer expectations about the plants I am raising.

Now about GMO's (genetically modified organisms):

From our past conversation, a micro-biological graft (protein slicing) to produce a change in genetic structure is a GMO. I think everyone agrees on this point.

I believe that "traditional hybrid" produced by sexual breeding (e.g., pollination) of two different species is o.k. with you, and not considered a GMO ?

An example of interest to me is the Jostaberry, which was an orchestrated cross pollination of Currant and Gooseberry, by first crossing the two with Worcesterberry, and then crossing those offspring, then crossing back in Worcesterberry to get a more fertile plant.

I'm not sure how you feel about thornless mutants produced by irradiation of seeds, growing the seeds, and then of those plants that are viable searching for one that is thornless and self-fertile. Black Satin Blackberry is an example. Is this a GMO ?

Finally, what about thorny plants whose roots are treated with a naturally occuring hormone that makes them thornless (extracted from say, an organically grown plant). The offspring and suckers of this plant will have thorns. Is this a GMO ?

microfarmer
07-18-2008, 08:51 PM
This is a side shot of my tropical bed. Pure organic soil. Local compost made mainly of leaves and grass.


That looks alot better now that all the snow and ice is gone!! :ha:

Hey Richard, my Grandma would have called you a 'puddin' stick'...out to stir things up...:ha:

California has a different definition for alot of things! There is a difference between organic , Earth-friendly, and green.

Organic should mean non-synthetic, even though there has to be some processes to get it to the end user. Even the act of bicycling to the HD to pick up the bag of manure uses fossil fuels and is not Earth-friendly or green. The bags of stuff at HD are not produced from the steer and chickens on location, but trucked there using vast amounts of diesel fuel. Most times diesel fuel is used to procure the manure from where it lays, and the machines that pack and sort the yit need energy to run. Then there's the plastic in the bags, and God forbid the methane from all the steers. And that's just the manures. Peat production is killing the peat bogs. The minerals are all mined (some in open pit mines) including perlite and vermiculite. Fish emulsion depletes fish stocks. Kelp meal reduces kelp forests. There is nothing Earth-friendly or green about most organics. The best thing to use is compost from your own maker, and some other ammendments sparingly. Blood and bone meal products are by-products of the slaughterhouse industry. Shredded bark and bark nuggets are by-products of the logging industry. Their sale keeps that stuff outta the landfills and incinerators. In my opinion, it approaches more of a green product than some of the others. Other by-products that lean to the green side include spent grain from breweries, spent media from mushrooms, and shredded trees from tree trimming companies, and waste from vegetable canning plants. This stuff would be disposed of if not made into another product. Oh, bat guano is a green manure in that the bats are there naturally, and not artificially as in a beef or chicken ranch produced manures. That's my pudding!!:lurk:

P.s. nice bump, Dean!

So I'm guessing that by "organic" you folks mean "non-synthetic" ?

For example, Neem Oil is a non-synthetic pest control material. It has been processed (distilled a bit) so that the concentration is the same in each bottle. Does it still count as "organic" this way?

Alfalfa meal has a rating of 2-0-3 and is nothing but finely chopped alfalfa. It takes 1.3 cubic feet (9.5 gallons) of it per year to feed a full-size crop-producing fruit tree. Alfalfa extract is a 14-0-21 liquid that only takes 1 cup a month to feed a crop-producing fruit tree -- but it is created by a series of chemical treatments, one of which involves Benzene. Does it still count as "organic" ?

Also, Potassium Nitrate and Sul-Po-Mag are minerals that are mined directly out of the earth, often crushed and then mechanically sorted to get a standard level of purity. There is no chemical processing. Do these count as "organic" ?

The reason I ask is because in California there is a completely different standard for "organic farming". According to the State, it is "methods which do not significantly impact the environment". What do you think about this definition ?

Dean W.
07-18-2008, 10:02 PM
Wow, I opened a can of worms. :ha::ha::ha:

I just want to grow things organically as possible.

Fish emulsion is a by product of the fishing industry.

How do you all do the multiple quotes?

Dean W.
07-18-2008, 10:39 PM
I think organic means the use of non-synthetic materials.

microfarmer
07-18-2008, 10:54 PM
Wow, I opened a can of worms. :ha::ha::ha:

I just want to grow things organically as possible. You guys out in California got stricter standards than everyone else. In fact most things you buy always mention California laws.

Fish emulsion is a by product of the fishing industry.

Another question, how do you all do the multiple quotes?:ha:

Ok, I'll give you fish by-product source for fish emulsion. I'd like to think it was only the parts of the processed fish that aren't marketable. I'd hate to think it included the by-catch that isn't sorted from the target fish.

By the way, I grew up in the outskirts of Chicago...not much more than grass growing there, and not very Earth friendly or green.

D_&_T
07-19-2008, 10:06 PM
Has anybody used one called Garden Safe Fungicide3 made with Clarified Hydrophobic Extract of Neem Oil?:waving:

Richard
07-19-2008, 10:08 PM
Has anybody used one called Garden Safe Fungicide3 made with Clarified Hydrophobic Extract of Neem Oil?:waving:

Yep, works great as a deterent if used regularly. Has little effect on established outbreaks of mildew, black sooty mold, etc.

paradisi
07-19-2008, 11:58 PM
I just don't see the need for that kind of feeding regimen. My plants do great with what I give them. As I explained in my previous post, they get fed through out the year organically. I have also noticed that they have really strong root systems and don't blow over in heavy winds. They might grow faster and have more fruit if I fed them MG, but then they wouldn't be organic and that's really what I'm after is organic food and being a good care taker of this little piece of earth I have to grow on.

From an Australian perspective - - my bananas (lady fingers) were pups from plants that don't get more than 4m tall. My old mate still has them growing in his garden at that height. Ours grow to over 8 metres - I think its because I planted them on about a cubic metre of lemon grass cuttings - we had a lemon grass plant that got out of hand so I took off all of the green growth and buried it in the spot I would later plant the banana pups.

The bunches have mostly weighed between 25kg and 30kg and yield 50-60 bananas.

They got hand watered for the first five or six weeks - until the next lot of leaves appeared and since then have had nothing special. The chooks (chickens) free ranged for about 3 months earlier this year and that's the only added fertiliser they got. We have a good climate for bananas - nothing below 8 degrees celcius in the middle of winter and average rainfall of about 1700mm a year.

Only had two fall over - and that was primarily to the wieght of the bunches - and a lot of rain in the few days before they went over. I used to sell pups and I think I went a bit too crazy on those two plants and there wasn't enough lateral root growth - because of the number of pups removed.

paradisi
07-20-2008, 12:07 AM
oh nate thats lovely! i have my compost piles in big huge planting buckets that way they are moveable. i use grass, fruit peels, egg shells, veggie scrape that arent cooked, newspaper(non glossy),coffee grounds and the filters and sometimes i throw mulch in there.

I use compost cages - some bird cage wire made into a cylinder and filled with whatever I have on hand. I get a lot of vegetable scraps from a mate who owns an organic fruit and vegetable store - that goes to feed the guinea pigs and the chooks - anything they don't eat goes into the compost cage, as does layers of lawn clippings from my neighbours - we don't have lawn as such, and the chook and guinea pig poo. egg shells are crushed and added and anything that once grew goes in. I've cut down on the meat scraps because of the fly problem, but they are OK to add if you can handle maggots etc.

a pic of the current cage
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/paradisi/the%20garden/th_0807110005.jpg (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/paradisi/the%20garden/0807110005.jpg)

The wire is pulled up every couple of days and moved to a nearby spot and the compost "turned" back into the cage - this speeds up composting and aeration

Here's an old cage that got converted into a tomato cage (left some of the compost in the bottom of the cage) - there's peas, snake beans, yakon, black russian tomatoes and some watermelon (gives the watermelon an early start)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/paradisi/the%20garden/th_0807110004.jpg (http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/paradisi/the%20garden/0807110004.jpg)

Dean W.
07-20-2008, 12:09 AM
paradisi, I'll have to add my lemon grass stalks to the mix!:ha:

Rmplmnz
07-20-2008, 05:32 PM
I was just wondering if any of you grow Organically?

What type of fertilizers do you use and are there any
pests or bugs that are particular to Banana plants?
Or even ones that will harm my Bananas.

The food I do grow for myself is all pesticide free and
I only use natural fertilizers. But I have never grown
a banana plant before and looking for advice from
other Organic growers.

We grow our bananas organically......local stable delivers....then we supplement with carbon (tree mulch, newspapers, cardboard)...all obtained for free (sans-labor).

We also add about 12,000 pounds (over 400 bags averaging over 30 #'s each) of leaves (mostly oak) each year.


http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11546&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11546)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11545&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11545)

Leaves...leaves.....
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11556&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11556)

Richard
07-20-2008, 06:09 PM
Composted horse manure is a fantastic way to fertilize organically. Use about 3.5 cubic feet or 100 liters per year per banana plant or mature semi-dwarf fruit tree in the ground to obtain 1 lb of Nitrogen and 0.7 lb of Potash per year. Supplementing with another Potash source to bring the total up to 1.5 lb per year is recommended.

Rmplmnz
07-20-2008, 08:31 PM
Composted horse manure is a fantastic way to fertilize organically. Use about 3.5 cubic feet or 100 liters per year per banana plant or mature semi-dwarf fruit tree in the ground to obtain 1 lb of Nitrogen and 0.7 lb of Potash per year. Supplementing with another Potash source to bring the total up to 1.5 lb per year is recommended.

Thanks Richard..appreciate the extrapolation!

Dean W.
07-20-2008, 09:29 PM
We grow our bananas organically......local stable delivers....then we supplement with carbon (tree mulch, newspapers, cardboard)...all obtained for free (sans-labor).

We also add about 12,000 pounds (over 400 bags averaging over 30 #'s each) of leaves (mostly oak) each year.


http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11546&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11546)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=11545&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11545)

That's a great looking pile of compost! Your plants love the stuff, huh?