View Full Version : Banana labeled 'Dare' at GRIN unlike 'Dare' pictured at TARS site
geosulcata
12-04-2015, 12:00 PM
This was labeled as Dare, however, it (and the others where it came from) fruit at just under 4' tall - which as PR-Giants pointed out, is much shorter than what is listed as Dare at TARS.
Out of the 15 varieties we planted at the same time this year, this was the first to fruit. It is a beautiful, stocky plant with very open petioles.
I will add more pictures after I take more.
I would love to hear from anyone else that is growing 'Dare' or if you have ideas on what else this could be.
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/candcwelch/22878395205/in/album-72157661728928232/" title="Dare Bananas fruiting at 4'"><img src="https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5751/22878395205_8ec1581427.jpg" width="500" height="500" alt="Dare Bananas fruiting at 4'"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/candcwelch/22823710173/in/album-72157661728928232/" title="IMG_0292"><img src="https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5796/22823710173_5e237480e2.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="IMG_0292"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/candcwelch/23155041360/in/album-72157661728928232/" title="IMG_0318"><img src="https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5657/23155041360_a99443400b.jpg" width="500" height="500" alt="IMG_0318"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/candcwelch/23389413922/in/album-72157661728928232/" title="IMG_9097"><img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/775/23389413922_018569c3a7.jpg" width="334" height="500" alt="IMG_9097"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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I purchased a mystery pup a few months ago from a man selling them on the side of the road. His 1st language was not English so our "discussion" about type, etc was not very productive. I asked about taste. "Delicious". How tall? He pointed to his waist and smiled. We'll see.
geosulcata
12-04-2015, 03:05 PM
I purchased a mystery pup a few months ago from a man selling them on the side of the road. His 1st language was not English so our "discussion" about type, etc was not very productive. I asked about taste. "Delicious". How tall? He pointed to his waist and smiled. We'll see.
Mine came from the repository though.
Gabe15
12-04-2015, 06:16 PM
It is definitely different from the TARS 'Dare', which appears to be an AAB Laknao cultivar. Also the ITC 'Dare' is listed as Laknao, which is likely where the TARS accessions came from.
To me, your 'Dare' looks rather like a dwarf AAB Pome, like 'Prata Ana'/'Dwarf Brazilian' or 'Raja Puri'. I notice the first generation fruiting height on Pome cultivars can be drastically shorter than subsequent generations, and in Hawaii I've observed healthy tissue cultured plants fruiting as early as 7 months after planting. It could be also be a dwarf-er mutation, but since height is so dependent on conditions, nutrition and age of the mat, you really have to have it well fed/watered and fruit multiple generations times in the same location to get a real sense of the height of the plant. Looks neat though.
Mine came from the repository though.Well, when I was collecting ficus I discovered that what there are tremendous errors in UCD's naming; I found foraging for figsticks to be more rewarding since I spoke with people who actually knew such facts as "my grandfather brought this when he came from Italy". I have no clue about my mystery pup other than what the grower shared with me; when my little gal fruits it will be like Christmas. As for what TARS believes and sends out...pfft.
geosulcata
12-04-2015, 06:25 PM
It is definitely different from the TARS 'Dare', which appears to be an AAB Laknao cultivar. Also the ITC 'Dare' is listed as Laknao, which is likely where the TARS accessions came from.
To me, your 'Dare' looks rather like a dwarf AAB Pome, like 'Prata Ana'/'Dwarf Brazilian' or 'Raja Puri'. I notice the first generation fruiting height on Pome cultivars can be drastically shorter than subsequent generations, and in Hawaii I've observed healthy tissue cultured plants fruiting as early as 7 months after planting. It could be also be a dwarf-er mutation, but since height is so dependent on conditions, nutrition and age of the mat, you really have to have it well fed/watered and fruit multiple generations times in the same location to get a real sense of the height of the plant. Looks neat though.
Thanks Gabe,
I really appreciate your input. We were told that all 4 areas at GRIN labeled Dare are all fruiting at 4' - well established mats. We have dwarf Brazilian and raja puri and the growth habit of this one seems a little different to me - definitely shorter than the others, but I will note future generation heights. Do you think I should let GRIN know? Are there other bananas in the POme group other than DB, RP, Hawaiian Apple, Walha, and hybrid Pacovan Ken? Any chance it would be one of the latter two?
PR-Giants
12-04-2015, 07:28 PM
It appears Miami lost or misplaced their AAB Laknau cultivar after 2006.
Miami received their Dare Laknua from the International Network for the Improvement of Banana and Plantain on 15-Dec-1993.
TARS received their Dare Laknua from Miami on 25-Oct-2006.
It is definitely different from the TARS 'Dare', which appears to be an AAB Laknao cultivar. Also the ITC 'Dare' is listed as Laknao, which is likely where the TARS accessions came from.
Ours came from GRIN (from the field) in Miami. We also received Poni from GRIN - but the TARS sight shows Poni as something different (not a purple variant of Ele Ele, as I had thought Poni was described other places).
A Dare is in the Laknau subgroup, it's about 10' tall and is not a dwarf banana like in the photo.
Image for: TARS 18026 (http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/dispimage.pl?333855)
"Distinctive cooking banana having in common a French-bunch type
and a tall pseudostem
The most relevant feature of this subdivision of the cooking banana
subgroup is that during their natural hybridization process the A genome
was transferred from the Papuan M. acuminata spp. banksii
rather than from the Asian M. acuminata (Lebot et al., 1993). Clones
under this subdivision produce fruits with organoleptic qualities similar
to those of the genuine cooking bananas. There are two Lacknau
clones in the collection, PI 23472 and PI 23479, that were originally
classified in the AAB or true plantain group (Valmayor et al., 1981), but
were later reclassified as distinctive cooking bananas (Lebot et al.,
1993; 1994). These were introduced from SIATSA, Honduras. Their
pseudostem is green. The comparison between clones demonstrated
that introduction PI 23472 developed a significantly thicker pseudostem,
required substantially more days for fruit filling, and produced
significantly heavier fruits (Table 2). There was no significant difference
between the two clones for the other plant, bunch and individual
fruit traits studied. The information obtained was not enough to maintain
a separate clonal identity. However, PI 23472 and other Lacknau
clones have been reported to possess field resistance to the corm weevil
(Cosmopolites sordidus Germar) (Irizarry et al., 1988). Clone PI 23479
has not been evaluated for this attribute. Until this evaluation is performed,
these clones should be maintained as separate entities."
geosulcata
12-04-2015, 07:39 PM
It appears Miami lost or misplaced their AAB Laknau cultivar after 2006.
I read that before when you shared it...just looking for ideas of what this might actually be. It is odd that they would have four separate mats all labeled as Dare - all 4'.
PR-Giants
12-04-2015, 07:47 PM
Is it odd that they have a mysore mat labeled as FHIA-21?
I read that before when you shared it...just looking for ideas of what this might actually be. It is odd that they would have four separate mats all labeled as Dare - all 4'.
Gabe15
12-06-2015, 03:39 PM
Thanks Gabe,
I really appreciate your input. We were told that all 4 areas at GRIN labeled Dare are all fruiting at 4' - well established mats. We have dwarf Brazilian and raja puri and the growth habit of this one seems a little different to me - definitely shorter than the others, but I will note future generation heights. Do you think I should let GRIN know? Are there other bananas in the POme group other than DB, RP, Hawaiian Apple, Walha, and hybrid Pacovan Ken? Any chance it would be one of the latter two?
There is almost always some degree of mixups in big collections, it's inevitable, and as PR-Giants has pointed out, this is not the only mixup. There is ongoing work to field verify and characterize all of the accessions in the ITC, and the USDA is growing out many of them and will continue on, so it will be or has already been identified as an error, but field curators will typically appreciate a heads up, though there might not be anything they can do about it immediately.
There are many cultivars in the Pome subgroup, it's hard to say which it could be, though it certainly appears to be a true-dwarf, and there is also the chance it is an off-type from another clone in the collection. Desirable off-types become new cultivars, so unless it matches exactly another clone in the GRIN collection, it could possibly be an off-type.
Gabe15
12-06-2015, 04:00 PM
I read that before when you shared it...just looking for ideas of what this might actually be. It is odd that they would have four separate mats all labeled as Dare - all 4'.
This can easily happen during the tissue culture process, if the initial source plant is mixed up/mislabled, all subsequent plants will be too. This can even happen from the field if suckers are taken from a single mislabled plant. Banana collections have to be routinely replanted as the plants do not persist in the ground for very long and remain healthy, so there is plenty of opportunity to mix things up.
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