Log in

View Full Version : Cut my nanners back too soon!


Snarkie
11-29-2015, 09:57 AM
So I had some frost damage to my Musas. I knew they weren't dead, but I didn't see a point in keeping them going any further into the season so I cut them back. I place wire around a couple of them and packed with cherry chainsaw slash as an insulator. The rest, I just dumped the slash over.

The very next day, I had an inch of new growth coming out of the p-stems. Should I just have waited until they died back or am I on the right track here? If the latter is correct, what do I do about the new growth, wait until it really dies back and then pack more slash on top and cover?

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=59156&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=59156&ppuser=19953)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=59155&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=59155&ppuser=19953)

Hammocked Banana
11-29-2015, 10:13 AM
Nice cages!!

Snarkie
11-29-2015, 10:20 AM
Nice cages!!Thanks! They remind me of giant scratching posts, LOL.

I wish I had more wire though! They look nice and professional, and I think the slash is a better insulator than leaves. I have a ton of the stuff too. My dad turns wooden bowls on the lathe, and I have piles of chainsaw and turning slash to use as mulch.

Gabe15
11-29-2015, 12:52 PM
I don't think you made any mistake. Any growth that would happen from now on isn't going to add anything significant to the plants, and you may as well wrap them up a little early rather than too late.

But really I don't even think it's growth.

I've had this idea for awhile that when you cut pseudostems and see the resulting immediate "growth", that it's actually not growth. I've always meant to investigate the phenomenon further, but haven't got around to it (yet), and haven't seen any obvious explanations in the literature (though it's probably out there somewhere, I just haven;t looked very hard). The reason I don't think it is growth is that it happens very very quickly, often much quicker than the plant could be growing (sometimes an inch or more in a matter of minutes).

As to what is actually happening, I'm not 100% sure, but my thinking leads me towards some type of pressure release as a result of removing the top of the plant. New growth would seem to be under some pressure as the meristem is dividing beneath at the top of the corm and the young leaves inside are slowly expanding and being forced up through the pseudostem. When a portion of the pseudostem is cut off, that could be taking away a portion of the plant that had resistance to the growth beneath, and like a champagne cork, the result is an immediate and quick spurt of apparent growth of the young leaves below the cut. Surely growth in the true sense (cell division and expansion) is contributing to some minor degree which is probably variable depending on conditions, but I don't think it's the main factor in this phenomenon immediately following the cutting.

I've also noticed the same thing can happen when cutting onions during cooking, and they are definitely not growing. They have a very similar morphology to banana pseudostems.

siege2050
11-29-2015, 12:54 PM
I had the same problem, mine started growing and I just cut off the new growth again. When you cover if you use a tarp, or plastic, dont let it touch the pstem on top, the plastic will conduct cold into the pstem and freeze it. In my unheated greenhouse each winter, I overwinter my plants by just covering with frost cloth and plastic and have successfully kept them alive this way even down to 1 F degrees outside, but any place the plastic touches will kill the plants tissues. I put the frost cloth under the plastic so they dont touch.

Snarkie
11-29-2015, 01:12 PM
I don't think you made any mistake. Any growth that would happen from now on isn't going to add anything significant to the plants, and you may as well wrap them up a little early rather than too late.

But really I don't even think it's growth.

I've had this idea for awhile that when you cut pseudostems and see the resulting immediate "growth", that it's actually not growth. I've always meant to investigate the phenomenon further, but haven't got around to it (yet), and haven't seen any obvious explanations in the literature (though it's probably out there somewhere, I just haven;t looked very hard). The reason I don't think it is growth is that it happens very very quickly, often much quicker than the plant could be growing (sometimes an inch or more in a matter of minutes).

As to what is actually happening, I'm not 100% sure, but my thinking leads me towards some type of pressure release as a result of removing the top of the plant. New growth would seem to be under some pressure as the meristem is dividing beneath at the top of the corm and the young leaves inside are slowly expanding and being forced up through the pseudostem. When a portion of the pseudostem is cut off, that could be taking away a portion of the plant that had resistance to the growth beneath, and like a champagne cork, the result is an immediate and quick spurt of apparent growth of the young leaves below the cut. Surely growth in the true sense (cell division and expansion) is contributing to some minor degree which is probably variable depending on conditions, but I don't think it's the main factor in this phenomenon immediately following the cutting.

I've also noticed the same thing can happen when cutting onions during cooking, and they are definitely not growing. They have a very similar morphology to banana pseudostems.Thank you for the feedback. I would tend to agree, except that we had a couple of cold nights and then...BAM! We're back into the 70's again. I think the plant has mistaken this for a freak of nature and is now trying to make up for lost time.

Snarkie
11-29-2015, 01:13 PM
I had the same problem, mine started growing and I just cut off the new growth again. When you cover if you use a tarp, or plastic, dont let it touch the pstem on top, the plastic will conduct cold into the pstem and freeze it. In my unheated greenhouse each winter, I overwinter my plants by just covering with frost cloth and plastic and have successfully kept them alive this way even down to 1 F degrees outside, but any place the plastic touches will kill the plants tissues. I put the frost cloth under the plastic so they dont touch.Hey Siege-

What I was planning on doing, is taking a butter container and filling it with the same slash, then placing over the top and duct taping it into place. Looks like we're on the same page! :08:

scottu
11-29-2015, 06:02 PM
I don't think you made any mistake. Any growth that would happen from now on isn't going to add anything significant to the plants, and you may as well wrap them up a little early rather than too late.

But really I don't even think it's growth.

I've had this idea for awhile that when you cut pseudostems and see the resulting immediate "growth", that it's actually not growth. I've always meant to investigate the phenomenon further, but haven't got around to it (yet), and haven't seen any obvious explanations in the literature (though it's probably out there somewhere, I just haven;t looked very hard). The reason I don't think it is growth is that it happens very very quickly, often much quicker than the plant could be growing (sometimes an inch or more in a matter of minutes).

As to what is actually happening, I'm not 100% sure, but my thinking leads me towards some type of pressure release as a result of removing the top of the plant. New growth would seem to be under some pressure as the meristem is dividing beneath at the top of the corm and the young leaves inside are slowly expanding and being forced up through the pseudostem. When a portion of the pseudostem is cut off, that could be taking away a portion of the plant that had resistance to the growth beneath, and like a champagne cork, the result is an immediate and quick spurt of apparent growth of the young leaves below the cut. Surely growth in the true sense (cell division and expansion) is contributing to some minor degree which is probably variable depending on conditions, but I don't think it's the main factor in this phenomenon immediately following the cutting.

I've also noticed the same thing can happen when cutting onions during cooking, and they are definitely not growing. They have a very similar morphology to banana pseudostems.




That makes perfect sense since the top that is cut off also pushes out the center.

Mark Dragt
11-29-2015, 09:44 PM
That makes perfect sense since the top that is cut off also pushes out the center.

X2. Expansion of compressed tissue. Having the same center push on both sides of the cut sounds like proof to me. Very small amount of actual growth.
:woohoonaner:

Snarkie
11-30-2015, 09:29 AM
I'll keep an eye on it. If it slows and stops, then you were spot on. If it starts growing leaves though, it might still be growing. :ha:

Snarkie
11-30-2015, 01:44 PM
Okay, four days and 4" of growth on all plants. I really think this is new growth, not merely expansion. Here's a pic of what's going on:


http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=59157&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=59157&ppuser=19953)

PR-Giants
11-30-2015, 03:49 PM
When I send someone a corm I always explain that the initial push is just a pressure release and basically meaningless, don't get excited when you see it and don't get depressed when it stops.

If the top section of the plant is removed and then the corm is also removed, the pseudostem will push the center shaft out both ends, the top & the bottom. And the corm will obviously push and probably also the top section with the leaves, so it should push out at all 4 ends.



I don't think you made any mistake. Any growth that would happen from now on isn't going to add anything significant to the plants, and you may as well wrap them up a little early rather than too late.

But really I don't even think it's growth.

I've had this idea for awhile that when you cut pseudostems and see the resulting immediate "growth", that it's actually not growth. I've always meant to investigate the phenomenon further, but haven't got around to it (yet), and haven't seen any obvious explanations in the literature (though it's probably out there somewhere, I just haven;t looked very hard). The reason I don't think it is growth is that it happens very very quickly, often much quicker than the plant could be growing (sometimes an inch or more in a matter of minutes).

As to what is actually happening, I'm not 100% sure, but my thinking leads me towards some type of pressure release as a result of removing the top of the plant. New growth would seem to be under some pressure as the meristem is dividing beneath at the top of the corm and the young leaves inside are slowly expanding and being forced up through the pseudostem. When a portion of the pseudostem is cut off, that could be taking away a portion of the plant that had resistance to the growth beneath, and like a champagne cork, the result is an immediate and quick spurt of apparent growth of the young leaves below the cut. Surely growth in the true sense (cell division and expansion) is contributing to some minor degree which is probably variable depending on conditions, but I don't think it's the main factor in this phenomenon immediately following the cutting.

I've also noticed the same thing can happen when cutting onions during cooking, and they are definitely not growing. They have a very similar morphology to banana pseudostems.

Snarkie
11-30-2015, 04:02 PM
When I send someone a corm I always explain that the initial push is just a pressure release and basically meaningless, don't get excited when you see it and don't get depressed when it stops.

If the top section of the plant is removed and then the corm is also removed, the pseudostem will push the center shaft out both ends, the top & the bottom. And the corm will obviously push and probably also the top section with the leaves, so it should push out at all 4 ends.Thank you for the input.

I forgot to include when I posted this, that the stuff I cut off is not doing this. The plant was frost hit, but not killed back. All I am trying to establish, is how to curtail the damage I did by cutting them back too soon.

Kevin2685
11-30-2015, 05:09 PM
Mine did the same thing.I cut it down then it got warm for couple weeks and when I got back from vacation they had pushed up through the couple feet of mulch and straw all the way to the top and pushed some of the tarp up. I just moved some of the top layer and cut them down some and covered back up. I am going to add some more straw in there cause I can feel one when i touch the top of the tarp. It was the weird warm ups we had this year. Last year I cut mine down and when I uncovered it in spring it was exactly as I left it when I covered it.

PR-Giants
11-30-2015, 05:21 PM
Thank you for the input.

I forgot to include when I posted this, that the stuff I cut off is not doing this. The plant was frost hit, but not killed back. All I am trying to establish, is how to curtail the damage I did by cutting them back too soon.

I don't recall ever looking at the top section with the leaves to see if the center pushed, but I certainly expect it would. Keep in mind that there is much less pressure at the top so it will be much less noticeable.

I can't help with your problem, but maybe it'll make no difference, maybe releasing that pressure before dormancy is a good thing or maybe it's a bad thing.

Good Luck

PR-Giants
12-01-2015, 08:59 AM
I've always meant to investigate the phenomenon further, but haven't got around to it (yet), and haven't seen any obvious explanations in the literature (though it's probably out there somewhere, I just haven;t looked very hard).

... and like a champagne cork, the result is an immediate and quick spurt of apparent growth of the young leaves below the cut.

Besides the compression force being released there is also the torsion force. Most folks have probably noticed the phenomenon of the center shaft spinning/rotating/twisting as it travels through the pseudostem, if not, it's from right to left, or clockwise if viewing from above.

MDbasjoo
12-02-2015, 11:20 PM
You didn't damage the plants by cutting them back too soon. the growth point is in the corm, you could essentially cut the whole pstem to the ground and it'll still pop right back up in the spring. In my experience, the plant will continue to grow at a slow rate during warm spells as long as the ground stays warm. For that reason, I don't wrap my basjoos until temps drop into the mid 20s. Otherwise they'd push through the protection.

Snarkie
12-03-2015, 10:40 AM
I'll know not to do that again next year! The growth rate is phenomenal since it warmed back up. One of them is already unfurling into two leaves!

SixtySix
12-04-2015, 06:54 AM
I just let mine die back with the first frost, about two weeks ago, and it's pushing up new leaves through!

You can't fight Mother Nature.

tropicplantlover
12-11-2015, 01:34 PM
I am getting worried as to the health of my banana trees. I cut them back and heavily insulated them expecting a cold winter...........Now we are having above 60-o temps here in SWVA and they may be overheating in there? What should I do, the evenings are colder sometimes aroound 32, but then the days are warmer in the 60s. Afraid I may lose them this year and for over the past 10 years I have basically protecgted them the same way...........does anyone recommend taking the plastic covers off now to let ventaliztion in.......soon we will have rain her and lots of it..............this weather is evident of a changing environment due to manmade reasons and we are going to have to cope with these environmental changes and deal with it I guess.

Kevin2685
12-11-2015, 04:27 PM
Yeah the next 3 days we are going to be breaking records. Supposed to be close to 70 next couple days. It's a crazy start to this winter.

Kat2
12-11-2015, 07:44 PM
Yeah the next 3 days we are going to be breaking records. Supposed to be close to 70 next couple days. It's a crazy start to this winter.
It's been warmer than normal here also. I'm not complaining; it was too hot to do much outside this past summer so I'm catching up now in shorts and short sleeves but not sweating like a porcine just walking outside. But natives (I'm not one) are really wondering what happened to winter this year.

tropicplantlover
12-11-2015, 09:55 PM
I have them wrapped with a tarp, as well as heavily mulched them and cut them back to about 2-3'...........so I took off the tarp and each one has a sock or is wrapped individually, so it is way too much for this hot weather and will choke them I am sure................I feel that Nasa and the weather service could at least advise us one month out as they do know what is really going on and should keep farmers properly advised. I will have to play it by ear, but I certainly don't like the added work involved...........and worry..........it will start raining heavily here, so hmmm, don't know if I should cover them from the rain or let it rain and then cover them back up??????? anyone out there that lives in Va. who could offer some tips on what is the best plan?

Kevin2685
12-11-2015, 10:50 PM
I would try and put the tarp back over them before it rains.
Try and keep them dry cause after a couple days the temperature will drop.
I might add little more straw just cause I can feel the top of one of the stems hitting the tarp. But besides that I'm done messing with mine.i leave a couple small gaps along the bottom so mine always get a little bit of ventilation

tropicplantlover
12-12-2015, 12:58 AM
Thanks for your advice..........makes sense as here it is supposed to rain , then get colder in SWVA.
Thanks,

Snarkie
12-12-2015, 03:27 PM
Even the small ones I left alone are putting out new leaves!

The other night, I saw a couple of plants on one of my routes that had been left alone. One of them has fingers on a Musa basjoo! Here in NC! At Christmas!

cincinnana
12-12-2015, 08:59 PM
Doug,
I waited awhile to take this photo just for you....:08:

As long as the ground temp is above the 40's+- this plant will push leaves.

This plant will push leaves till the absolute end of the grow season

You can see the last freeze, and the new push.
Pretty cool eh!!

Locally this plant is a beast and grows well in great amended soil.

This is normal stuff until the SOIL temp is in the low 30's for a period of time(to be determined).


Photo is a few weeks growth taken today after many cold nights.......but this should stop when the air temps are consistently in the 20's
This plant is soil temperature dependent. If the soil is still warm enough and the air still cool, this plant loves it.

Photo is a balbisiana/basjoo cross.

.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/671/23413831250_f30a4b8d37_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/BF11iG)
Push growth (https://flic.kr/p/BF11iG)
by
Hostafarian (https://www.flickr.com/photos/hostafarian/),
on Flickr

Longwoods Tropicals
12-13-2015, 07:12 AM
I cut my basjoos back and covered and protected them in mid November, now of course about a foot of growth has pushed the tarps up into little tents...LOL.

Here in the Great Lakes the grass is green (some spots really need a mowing), high temperature today is forecast to be 58, low 48!!! just nuts for mid December, my average temperature this month is 12f above normal and climbing.

I hate to say it, but I'm ready for winter, don't know if El-Nino will give us one this year though.

Snarkie
12-14-2015, 01:38 PM
Thanks Mike. So theoretically, if we don't hit the 20's these plants would continue in a slow growing cycle?

SixtySix
12-16-2015, 06:24 AM
Snarkie, we hit 28f at my house, destroyed the existing leaves, but the 2 weeks of temps in the 60's and 70's (72f yesterday!) have pushed out an entire leaf! I'm taking a picture today.

Snarkie
12-17-2015, 12:23 PM
Yeah, same story here. I have a foot of new growth on all the plants, but it's going to hit 28F tomorrow and Saturday nights, so it'll kill them back again. I'm really wishing I'd have not cut them back. If it stays this mild all winter, it would have been a heckuva jump in the spring. I'm still surprised at the plant with fingers on it.

Snarkie
12-18-2015, 10:54 AM
Okay, it's hitting 27F tonight and tomorrow night, so I covered the plants with Totes, my recycling rollout, my grill cover and garbage bags. Hell, it may just work.

Mark Dragt
12-18-2015, 11:20 AM
Okay, it's hitting 27F tonight and tomorrow night, so I covered the plants with Totes, my recycling rollout, my grill cover and garbage bags. Hell, it may just work.

No lack of effort! Your plants should be fine. Just some candles and soft music and the plants will dance the cold away.
:woohoonaner:

Snarkie
12-18-2015, 12:18 PM
No lack of effort! Your plants should be fine. Just some candles and soft music and the plants will dance the cold away.
:woohoonaner:I figured a little Metallica would do the trick! :0517:

siege2050
12-18-2015, 01:41 PM
My Basjoo, Musa Itinerans keep growing through their mulch because its warmer than usual. Supposed to have night lows around 40 till after Christmas. Hope I dont set them back chopping off a foot of new growth every couple of weeks.

Snarkie
12-18-2015, 01:44 PM
My Basjoo, Musa Itinerans keep growing through their mulch because its warmer than usual. Supposed to have night lows around 40 till after Christmas. Hope I dont set them back chopping off a foot of new growth every couple of weeks.Make a tent out of plastic. If it gets really low, put a floodlight in there. That's how I kept mine from freezing earlier this year. It worked like a charm.

Snarkie
12-19-2015, 11:00 AM
It didn't work. :(

I should have put a drop light in there too, like I did last time. Oh well, lesson learned. :)

SixtySix
12-22-2015, 06:55 AM
Another week with forecast highs in the 70's.

I'm less worried about the musa basjoo than I am about my Dionaea Muscipula. The Venus Flytrap needs a dormant period with temps in the 40's and 50's to thrive.

37.667910
12-22-2015, 01:06 PM
This winter has been hilarious, here in CA it's been below normal, while back East it's been a blow torch. I suspect things will right themselves before long ;)

Snarkie
01-05-2016, 01:09 PM
The last freeze knocked them on their butts, but didn't kill them back. Supposed to hit 21 tonight though, so I think they're really fubared this time. New growth had totaled almost three feet!

stevelau1911
01-05-2016, 06:41 PM
Is there a benefit to cutting them back?

I simply loaded up leaves and mulch layers onto my musa basjoo without cutting anything back. We got our first hard freeze yesterday, but I got the protection on right before that.
http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/stevelau1911/DSC02603_zps6z13et2w.jpg

siege2050
01-05-2016, 07:11 PM
When I dont cut mine back, the mother pstems freeze, and the cold is conducted into the mother corm killing it even with mulch. Then I just get small pup sprouts the next year. But it might not do that for everybody else.

Snarkie
01-06-2016, 08:19 AM
Is there a benefit to cutting them back?

I simply loaded up leaves and mulch layers onto my musa basjoo without cutting anything back. We got our first hard freeze yesterday, but I got the protection on right before that. Yes, it's always important to get your protection on! :ha:

blownz281
01-07-2016, 08:08 AM
In the past I never cut my Basjoo back. Here they slowly grow during the winter. Any freezes the new growth burns then few days puts out more growth. Don't pile mulch around them either, but our ground never freezes either.

siege2050
01-11-2016, 10:27 PM
Got very cold last night, down to probably around 10F and the top of my Basjoo chopped off about a foot above ground is frozen solid as a rock, even under a 2 foot pile of leaves. Hope it didnt kill the mother corm again.

37.667910
01-11-2016, 11:04 PM
This winter has been hilarious, here in CA it's been below normal, while back East it's been a blow torch. I suspect things will right themselves before long ;)


Seems the ship has been righted. We are back to the low 60's (nothing below 40 overnight) and the Midwest, and East are back to freezing temps.

Snarkie
01-12-2016, 11:57 AM
Yes, but not for long! :08:

Kevin2685
01-12-2016, 12:47 PM
Snowy here and getting down to 3 tonight. :(
Yeah winter is finally here