View Full Version : What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON
Sting_stong
12-03-2013, 01:40 PM
Hey Everyone,
I just wanted to share with you my first attempt at overwintering my basjoo. It's a first-year plant that put on a terrific amount of growth this past summer. It was planted in mid May with a 6" p-stem and I finished it off in mid October with a 3' p-stem. The diameter was 16" at the base and flared out drastically at the bottom, telling me that there is a sizeable corm under there. It was planted right next to the foundation to make sure I'm getting as much winter radiant heat as possible. I think part of the reason it did so well was because my dryer vent is right next to it and so the ground was kept quite warm periodically (there are 2 babies in the house, so the dryer runs a lot!).
I'm in Ottawa, Ontario (z5b) but based on it's location (next to the house, in a corner, under a 3' overhang from the second floor, SE facing) I'm guessing it's closer to a 6a or 6b. Starting in early February, there's always a 3 foot strip of bare ground along the brick wall where the heat has melted the snow, which tells me fairly certainly that there is a micro climate there.
Anyway, knowing that information, here is what I did to attempt an overwintering of my basjoo. Tell me what you think in terms of its chances at success!
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=55322&size=1
The setting, before the massacre. I also have a Zebrina there in a buried pot, and a Sugarloaf Pineapple. I've been growing delicious pineapples for awhile, but this is my first Sugarloaf. Can't wait till next fall! The rest of my bananas are in the backyard.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=55326&size=1
Chop Chop
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=55324&size=1
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=55328&size=1
Chopped down to 2', wrapped in foam sheeting. The box is 2" foil-lined R8 styrofoam, then stuffed with straw. It's held together with caulk; the duct tape strips are only there to make me feel better. : )
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=55327&size=1
Ready for the lid.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=55331&size=1
To top it all off. Dirt was placed around the bottom edge of the box, and it was angled slightly away from the house, so that water runs along the edges and drops off the front. There is also a 3' overhang above it, so there is not a lot of rain landing directly on top of it.
Wired and wireless thermometers were also placed in the box at different locations.
I didn't get a picture of it, but once the temperatures started dropping below 0c consistently, I put a black tarp over the whole thing. Once it gets even colder, I'll start piling up snow on it. We had one night where it dropped down to -17c (unusually cold for November) and the internal temperature of the box got down to +2c (near the outer walls), so I think I might be fine to not only save the corm, but *possibly* even save the p-stem.
Fingers crossed! :bed:
KJ
lmswayne
12-03-2013, 05:03 PM
Nice job
2woodensticks
12-03-2013, 06:36 PM
that should work..we will see next year
lmswayne
12-03-2013, 06:56 PM
was that in your yard?
Olafhenny
12-03-2013, 07:47 PM
Looks great KJ!
This should work a lot better, than the mulching jobs I have done my first few winters.
The only concern might be and I cannot tell from here, that cold air might seep in
through the cracks, especially the lid, as I assume, that you have glued the sides
together.
You might want to consider to use some compressible material as washer between lid
and walls an/or glue a square piece of foam with a reasonably tight fit into the opening
of the box onto the underside of the lid, as I have done in
http://www.bananas.org/f2/permanent-banana-shelter-winter-spring-17855.html.
Otherwise your design has pretty well all the same advantages, which are discussed
in the above site, especially the advantage of opening it up much sooner in spring and
quickly covering it up again in case of frost threatening. Look through the discussion
on that site and you will be glad for your choice of winter protection.
Good luck,
Olaf
Sting_stong
12-03-2013, 09:26 PM
lmswayne, yes, that is in my front yard.
Sting_stong
12-03-2013, 09:33 PM
You might want to consider to use some compressible material as washer between lid
and walls an/or glue a square piece of foam with a reasonably tight fit into the opening
of the box onto the underside of the lid, as I have done in
http://www.bananas.org/f2/permanent-banana-shelter-winter-spring-17855.html.
Thanks Olaf.
Yes, the sides are held together with all-weather caulking, and now that the cold weather is upon us, the top is also caulked on (but I would be able to pop it off in the early spring when necessary). There is now also a tarp over the whole thing to keep those drafts out.
I like how you painted yours. I was concerned about the unsightly nature of my green monolith, but it does look better with the black tarp covering it.
Have you ever measured your box's internal temperature? I'm wondering what the lowest possible temperature was (and for how long) the corm could withstand.
Olafhenny
12-03-2013, 11:48 PM
Thanks Olaf.
Have you ever measured your box's internal temperature? I'm wondering what the lowest possible temperature was (and for how long) the corm could withstand.
No, KJ, but you brought up an interesting point. I recently acquired this min/max
thermometer Min-Max Thermometer - Lee Valley Tools (http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?cat=2,43224&p=60068), which
I loaned to a neighbour, who had a large sun room added to his house last summer.
Lots of light, but no heat. He agreed to look after some of my plants in this room on
the south side of his house.
Actually his sun room is ideal for an experiment, I have in mind, to test the cold
hardiness of some of my plants, specifically an oleander, which is Mediterranean by
origin and should consequently be hardy to minus 5 and a quat citrus (Fortunella
japonica (Thunberg) Swingle), which is purported to be hardy to -10^C. The min/max
will measure and record the coldest and the warmest temperature since it was reset
the last time.
My neighbour will record at which temperature they succumbed to frost or otherwise,
which were the coldest temperatures, they actually survived, while I will be in Vietnam
this winter.
After it was already to late and my shelters were sealed it occurred to me. that it
would have been a good idea to insert one of these thermometers into each of the
shelters, to find out, how cold it did get in there during the winter. Well, there is
always next winter.
If anybody is interested there is a lot about this very attractive citrus here:
www.bananas.org/f8/seeds-qu-t-possibly-most-attractive-15156-3.html In Vietnam
it serves as the equivalent of our Christmas tree and is displayed everywhere
during Tet.
I am getting more seeds this trip. so let me know. :)
Best,
Olaf
Abnshrek
12-03-2013, 11:54 PM
Looks like a Solid job of Winterization, I'm sure the dryer vent doesn't hurt anything either.. :^)
sunfish
12-04-2013, 02:24 AM
Dry your cloths at night
cincinnana
12-04-2013, 08:32 AM
Looks awesome !:08:
Sting_stong
12-04-2013, 11:57 AM
No, KJ, but you brought up an interesting point. I recently acquired this min/max
thermometer Min-Max Thermometer - Lee Valley Tools (http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?cat=2,43224&p=60068), which
I loaned to a neighbour, who had a large sun room added to his house last summer.
Lots of light, but no heat. He agreed to look after some of my plants in this room on
the south side of his house.
Actually his sun room is ideal for an experiment, I have in mind, to test the cold
hardiness of some of my plants, specifically an oleander, which is Mediterranean by
origin and should consequently be hardy to minus 5 and a quat citrus (Fortunella
japonica (Thunberg) Swingle), which is purported to be hardy to -10^C. The min/max
will measure and record the coldest and the warmest temperature since it was reset
the last time.
My neighbour will record at which temperature they succumbed to frost or otherwise,
which were the coldest temperatures, they actually survived, while I will be in Vietnam
this winter.
After it was already to late and my shelters were sealed it occurred to me. that it
would have been a good idea to insert one of these thermometers into each of the
shelters, to find out, how cold it did get in there during the winter. Well, there is
always next winter.
If anybody is interested there is a lot about this very attractive citrus here:
www.bananas.org/f8/seeds-qu-t-possibly-most-attractive-15156-3.html In Vietnam
it serves as the equivalent of our Christmas tree and is displayed everywhere
during Tet.
I am getting more seeds this trip. so let me know. :)
Best,
Olaf
The link on the Quats seems to be no longer existent, but I did a quick search and I never realized that they were that hardy!
When you grow them from seed, will they still bear fruit, or is the seed a non-bearing hybrid of the parent plants? I have a number of citrus; Ponderosa lemon, Persian lime, and Eureka lemon (I think), but I don't have any Quats. Yet!
Would definitely be interested in seeds!
Having a thermometer in the box was meant to make me less anxious about what's going on in there, but I think it has just made me more obsessed with it because I can constantly check it. I have a feeling I'll be checking it in the middle of the night later this winter if I happen to wake up. It certainly is good to have that peace of mind, though.
Olafhenny
12-04-2013, 02:08 PM
Hi KJ,
I just clicked on the quat link in your post here and it sprang right up.
I have no idea, if they fruit from seed grown plants. Mine are not old enough to do that.
(Only about 18 months.) The problem in Vietnam is, that all who speak English seem to
be working in the hospitality industry and their language is limited to that field. They
are great gardeners though, and I wished I could ask them a thousand questions.
You know probably a lot more about growing citrus than I do. I have learned one
thing about the quat though, it is that the seeds have to go into the soil very soon
after they are harvested from the fruit, or they will not germinate. That means, that
I have to send them out immediately, after I arrive back, or all will be for naught.
In other words I would need your mailing address preferably before Christmas, by
PM, of course.
Opening up you shelter during the winter may not be such a good idea, as the urge to
do that would probably be the greatest, when it is very cold and you would just let a
lot of cold air in. You could possibly find one with a remote reader, but they might be a
bit pricey.
Best,
Olaf
Sting_stong
12-04-2013, 02:42 PM
Hi KJ,
Opening up you shelter during the winter may not be such a good idea, as the urge to
do that would probably be the greatest, when it is very cold and you would just let a
lot of cold air in. You could possibly find one with a remote reader, but they might be a
bit pricey.
I've actually got two thermometers in there already. One wired and one wireless. I can't stop staring at them! I've found that if the outside temperature is around 0c, the internal temperature is around +10c. However, when it's substantially cooler outside, say -15c, the internal temperature has only dropped to +2-3c. Obviously it takes a lot longer for the box temperature to drop, but I'm just not sure yet if those above-zero temperatures can be maintained with a longer cold snap. We shall see.
Sting_stong
12-04-2013, 02:52 PM
I'm sure the dryer vent doesn't hurt anything either.. :^)
It's funny, I actually planned it out so the dryer vent would be my secret weapon in a deep freeze. The box actually has a hole in the side that fits snuggly over the dryer vent. However, I'm not sure if I'll ever direct the dryer air into the box as it would introduce a lot of moisture. I would have to run it with no clothes in it, which seems like a waste. At least I have that option, though. I have one of those diverters that is currently venting the dryer into the basement to give me much needed humidity in the house, and of course for my tropicals that spend the winter under the lights in the basement. Directly in the path of said vent, of course. They think they're in Jamaica whenever the dryer is running! :ha:
Olafhenny
12-04-2013, 03:19 PM
That is excellent planning!
lmswayne
12-05-2013, 02:01 PM
I would have never though of the dryer vent Banana brilliants at work.as it is 25f I am going to give it a try.
Thanks. baby my bananas will quit shriving.
hasty22
12-07-2013, 10:06 PM
I live in zone 5b as well. I wrapped in pink insulation and garbage bag with no heat. yours looks better protected.
Olafhenny
12-07-2013, 10:37 PM
Actually, Hasty, one layer of pink insulation (fibreglass) has an R-value of 11 or 12,
while two inches of polystyrene have an R-value of only 8. KJ has augmented his
protection, by filling his Styrofoam box with hay. Your method is probably just as
effective, providing it is well sealed against cold air at the bottom. A wedge of soil
piled against the bottom of the garbage bag, augmented with a heavy collar of leaf
mulch will do that, and it is not too late to apply that now. Also it is important, that
you have placed a heavy layer of your fibreglass on top of the PS as well.
Good luck,
Olaf
lmswayne
12-08-2013, 06:24 PM
I learn something new every day. Creative minds teach others so much. Thank you.
asacomm
12-10-2013, 03:59 AM
Hi KJ,
The plant doesn't look like "Basjoo" with the following observation.
Basjoo has no waxy white powder like material on the pseudostem and
petioles. But seeing your photos, there are white power like materials on
the p-stem, so I don't think it Basjoo but other common banana of which
cold torelance is weaker than Basjoo.
Sting_stong
11-29-2014, 10:37 PM
Yeah, turns out it's definitely not a basjoo. After doing some research, I'm quite certain that it's an Ice Cream, especially considering the waxy PS and red PS base. Does everyone concur?
Anyway, here are some updated photos since last fall when I originally posted my overwintering attempt...
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=57267&size=1
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=57268&size=1
So it was pretty frozen on the top, since that's where it was closest to the edge of the enclosure. The bottom looked totally fine, but I panicked and just chopped off the whole thing instead of just the frozen part. Oh well.
As I mentioned earlier, I had temperature sensors inside the box at 2 different locations. At ground level, it got to -10c near the outside edge of the box, but that was only for a short period of time when my clumsy housesitter got locked out and tried to get in my window, dislodging the box in the process. Grr. The typical temperature was around 3c.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=57266&size=1
It lives!
3 pups came up, with two of them reaching a similar size to the one from last season, and the other one was removed and replanted elsewhere. It later added on a couple more pups in August.
Which brings us to this fall:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=57270&size=1
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=57269&size=1
I changed it up a bit this year, adding heating cable to one of the P-stems. I was initially thinking it would be an experiment to see how effective it was compared to the non-heated one, but I later threw in some christmas lights to supplement the heat cable. In early observations, the christmas lights are far more effective than anticipated. One string can take the temperature from 1c to 16c in about two hours. A temperature controller would have been a good idea. Where do you get them?
I later crammed the rest of it with leaves and more fibreglass insulation.
Consider yourselves updated!
Any thoughts on the species? Suggestions for future attempts?
Longwoods Tropicals
12-01-2014, 07:31 AM
Good job over-wintering in Ottawa!!! Have you considered wrapping the Pstem with a narrow, heated seedling propagation mat? There are plenty of controllers available for them. Depending on the size of your Pstem you may need more than one.
Here is a link to some on eBay (http://www.ebay.ca/sch/sis.html?_nkw=Hydrofarm%20Digital%20Temperature%20Controller%20f or%20Heat%20Mat&_itemId=281393423473)
Sting_stong
12-01-2014, 09:54 AM
Thanks for the suggestion, I have one already and will consider it for next year. Too late for this year, as it's now sealed up tight. I wonder if these controllers would work for heating cable, or they're made specifically for the mats. Hm.
Sting_stong
10-17-2015, 02:48 PM
An update on my Ice Cream for summer 2015.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=58980&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=58980)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=58978&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=58978)
After opening up the box, I didn't have much hope for the pstem, but if there's one thing I learned, it's never give up until it's complete mush. And sure enough, a few weeks later I see a leaf spike emerge. Curiously, it came from the pstem that was only protected with fibreglass insulation, while the one that was protected with the heating cable gradually rotted away to nothing. Perhaps because it was closer to the house, it actually had a more stable temperature.
Growth was rapid this year, with 10-12 pups emerging throughout the summer, and the overall height surpassing last year's by a few feet.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=58981&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=58981)
Overwintering this year will be done differently from the past, because I'm just not willing to build a big enough box to protect the whole pstem. Instead I'll dig it up and store it in a friend's cold storage room. I'll try and get some pictures once that happens.
How big does an IC get before it fruits? I don't think it'll be next summer, but it can't be that far off. But you never know, crazier things have happened.
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