View Full Version : Musa laterita - seed scarification
shannondicorse
10-06-2013, 05:58 AM
Hi,
Can anyone render advice on scarification of Musa laterita seeds as an aid to speedier germination?
Thanks.
shannon
shannon.di.corse@gmail.com
jmoore
10-06-2013, 10:01 AM
No need to scarify. They germinate perfectly well without it. You need to read the forum on germination there is a wealth of information there.
sunfish
10-06-2013, 10:37 AM
It does work to speed up germination.But I agree it is not necessary. :)
nicking_seeds - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lQ92ay0Ty4)
Abnshrek
10-06-2013, 11:04 AM
I did it to EV seeds after I had them 3 months and 2 months later one came up.. I don't know if it helped or not.. :^)
shannondicorse
10-06-2013, 11:14 AM
No need to scarify. They germinate perfectly well without it. You need to read the forum on germination there is a wealth of information there.
It does work to speed up germination. But I agree it is not necessary.
jmoore, sunfish,
Sincere thanks to you both for the advice.
My breeding progress depends on the volume and speed at which I germinate these seeds.
Musa laterita is one of the key species in my acuminata breeding plan. Unfortunately, its seed production and speed of germination does not compare with the "Eumusa" species.
Normally I can collect hundreds of seed from acuminata & balbisiana... but it's different with these "Rhodochlamys" species.
Musa laterita seeds seem to be a bit stubborn... they seem to need an obligatory period of dormancy (the species seems adapted to severely monsoonal climate).
So I have to speed things up. When I used to breed Cannas (much easier than bananas!) I ran into the same situation... I had to speed up the cycle and the natural germination techniques were just too slow.
So if ANYONE has personal experience with speeding up Musa laterita germination... please lend a hand here! Any advice will be appreciated!
shannon
shannon.di.corse@gmail.com
shannondicorse
10-06-2013, 11:32 AM
I did it to EV seeds after I had them 3 months and 2 months later one came up.. I don't know if it helped or not.. :^)
Abnshrek, Thanks.
Does ventricosum normally give trouble?
After collecting bananas I try to dry seeds out a week or two (...sometimes MUCH longer...) then I soak them - sometimes for more than a week & set them out in trays to germinate. Some kinds are more obliging that others.
Laterita, is a stubborn pain in the neck!
There is a lot of variation among species; and even subspecies and ecotypes within a subspecies! I've noticed this with the material that I possess.
shannon
shannon.di.corse@gmail.com
jmoore
10-06-2013, 02:17 PM
Have you tried a period of cold stratification, not sure where Laterita comes from, but I've found that seeds generally germinate better if they have been cold stratified for a few weeks. Works for sikkimensis, balbisiana cheesmanii etc. They need to be dry first.
Worth a try.
I also soak my seeds in a 2 g/l magnesium sulphate solution, I've found this speeds up germination.
I have to say that I've not noticed any difference in Laterita seeds, but then I've not got them as fresh as you I guess.
shannondicorse
10-06-2013, 03:10 PM
Have you tried a period of cold stratification, not sure where Laterita comes from, but I've found that seeds generally germinate better if they have been cold stratified for a few weeks. Works for sikkimensis, balbisiana cheesmanii etc. They need to be dry first.
I also soak my seeds in a 2 g/l magnesium sulphate solution, I've found this speeds up germination....
Thanks, jmoore,
Based on my own observations there seems to physiological dormancy programs in Musa seeds.
I can germinate balbisiana, for example, without any drying out process; but a short drying does seem to trigger a weak dormancy program that is easy to break.
I've also noted, with this species, a type of dormancy that occurs under wet, oxygenated conditions. Moisture, daily temperature cycling and sunlight might be factors in the dormancy-breaking... I've never rigorously controlled for anything.
Musa laterita & balbisana do sometimes originate in areas where there is a bit of a winter chill and a simultaneous dry season... before the summer heat & monsoon set in to foster the germination process... so maybe stratification might work too.
I'll also gear up to do the Epsom Salt trick you mentioned...
The few people I've spoken with from my latitude who've tried, tell me that laterita is a toughie. But bananas weren't their forte.
My problem is that I tend to get really plenty balbisiana and acuminata seeds to vary the germinating conditions; but "rhodochlamys" group seeds are less abundant.
Today, I've lightly abraided a set of 50 seeds - they're from a mat of laterita planted within pollination distance of wild acuminata ssp malaccensis.
I also have laterita mats set next to large balbisiana plantings for more open pollination.
I'm waiting for the tiny laterita mat in my small backyard to open a new inflorescence, then I'll hand pollinate with parthenocarpic cultivars like Cavendish, Gros Michel, Red, Green Red, Sucrier, Silk,Mysore, 168-12 and such. The male phase of the inflorescence is protracted so that bells are very easy to come by... I just cut them and keep them in a vase for 3-5 days.
Last week, I pollinated the female flowers that I got from the latest new backyard laterita inflorescence with balbisiana & acuminata ssp. malaccensis & acuminata ssp. zebrina pollen to evaluate hybrid seed set.
I doubt I'll get many seeds (who knows?); but I have to get the old germination skills honed in time for those!
Can't let precious hybrid seed go to waste!!!
shannon
shannon.di.corse@gmail.com
sunfish
10-06-2013, 06:13 PM
I soaked some passiflora seed in Coca-Cola Zero® and they germinated. I wonder if this could be the best mehod
Abnshrek
10-06-2013, 06:24 PM
I soaked some passiflora seed in Coca-Cola Zero® and they germinated. I wonder if this could be the best mehod
Well how long did you let them sit in the acid bath? :^)
shannondicorse
10-06-2013, 06:39 PM
I soaked some passiflora seed in Coca-Cola Zero® and they germinated. I wonder if this could be the best method
Hey sunfish, you're joking, right?!?
hmmmmm... think... think... think... seriously though...
I wonder...does change from a high pCO2 microenvironment to a low pCO2 one - or vice versa - act as a trigger?
Just a centimetre of depth in humic muck makes a huge difference in pO2/pCO2 ratio; pH and redox.
I know that this can happen to banana seeds buried in forest litter when the vegetation is removed... and the wild bananas sprout en masse as if by magic!
That's their strategy.
You certainly do a lot of wild experimenting sunfish!
shannon
shannon.di.corse@gmail.com
shannondicorse
10-06-2013, 06:56 PM
I stuff chickens with passiflora seeds, after the K-9's eat, they sow & fert and they germinated fine.
I wonder if this method could be used on bananas.
PR-Giants,
Wow! You Americans certainly walk on the wild side!
But I know that Heliconia seeds that have been, uh, "processed" by birds germinate better. Breeding & sprouting Heliconias btw is so...oo much harder than bananas!
And Schefflera morototoni, a common secondary forest tree, is said to be triggered by first passing through the gut of forest frequenting frugivorous birds like Columba or Patagioenas speciosa.
I wonder how we can duplicate that "in vitro" in stead of "in cane" lol!
shannon
shannon.di.corse@gmail.com
PR-Giants
10-06-2013, 07:18 PM
There probably have been many studies.
Effects of Seed Dispersal by Three Ateline Monkey Species on Seed Germination at Tinigua National Park, Colombia - ResearchGate (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/225979119_Effects_of_Seed_Dispersal_by_Three_Ateline_Monkey_Spec ies_on_Seed_Germination_at_Tinigua_National_Park_Colombia)
Effectiveness of Spider Monkeys (Ateles geoffroyi vellerosus) as Seed Dispersers in Continuous and Fragmented Rain Forests in Southern Mexico - ResearchGate (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/225199383_Effectiveness_of_Spider_Monkeys_(Ateles_geoffroyi_vell erosus)_as_Seed_Dispersers_in_Continuous_and_Fragmented_Rain_For ests_in_Southern_Mexico)
sunfish
10-06-2013, 07:32 PM
I think seed having to pass through an animal to germinate is a bunch of poop
shannondicorse
10-06-2013, 07:36 PM
There probably have been many studies.
PR-Giants, Yes there are. Poor little shannon has spent some time poking around Howler Monkey Latrines looking at the seeds therein.
Oh well, a vida sem aventura não é nada...!!!
I've heard of recipes for simulating gut transport to hasten germination in Heliconia seeds - none of which I've tried as yet... but I'm getting desperate!
Keep the suggestions coming.
shannon
shannon.di.corse@gmail.com
shannondicorse
10-06-2013, 07:39 PM
I think seed having to pass through an animal to germinate is a bunch of poop
Ha!
This is a trick statement: If you're wrong you're right & if you're right you're right.
shannon
shannon.di.corse@gmail.com
sunfish
10-06-2013, 08:22 PM
What about this?
I hear it's popular in Cali.
The World's Most Expensive Coffee is From Beans Cycled Through an Indonesian* Monkey's Digestive System-Truth! (http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/k/kopiluwak.htm#.UlH-ZN7NjmQ)
Probably Northern CA.
sunfish
10-06-2013, 08:26 PM
What about this?
I hear it's popular in Cali.
The World's Most Expensive Coffee is From Beans Cycled Through an Indonesian* Monkey's Digestive System-Truth! (http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/k/kopiluwak.htm#.UlH-ZN7NjmQ)
I wonder if the seed are easy to germinate.If they are then all we need is a palm civet :goteam:
sunfish
10-06-2013, 08:52 PM
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&hs=bwL&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&biw=683&bih=268&tbm=isch&q=palm%20civet%20coffee%20beans&revid=1957017056&ei=yA9SUvrdC6SXiQL894DwAQ&ved=0CAwQsiU
jmoore
10-07-2013, 02:01 AM
I think seed having to pass through an animal to germinate is a bunch of poop
Funnily enough I did try that in a roundabout way. I soaked some seeds in animal renet and a slightly acidic solution of phosphoric acid (your coca cola trick) made no difference whatsoever. In fact I got no germination at all. I suspect that renet contains the wrong enzymes and the phosphoric acid killed the seeds.
Don't get me started on Heliconia. Fresh and still wet they germinate well, once dried they don't seem to germinate at all! It's a real pain in the backside. I read an article somewhere about heliconia seeds laying dormant on the forest floor waiting for a gap in the canopy to appear once that happens they all germinate. They must be light sensitive.
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