Log in

View Full Version : Help me pick a variety


jcbrownacu
09-03-2013, 10:38 PM
I need help. I've been reading through these forums so much, but I'm even more confused. I have a courtyard that will be made into a greenhouse each winter so temp should never get below freezing (hoping for more like 50, but time will tell). I have about 8-9' to the roof so that will be my height requirement, but I really want something that tastes absolutely delicious. Im in Dallas so it has to take some 105 days during the summer. Wind will be low.

So to summarize:
Max 9'
Temp not below freezing
Low wind
Amazing flavor

Thanks so much and happy nanners!
Josh

venturabananas
09-04-2013, 01:26 AM
The number of varieties that will top out at 9' or less to the top of the leaves is very small. Most are dwarfed varieties of Cavendish, so will taste like the bananas in the supermarket. Rajapuri might stay below 9' to the top of the leaves depending on conditions and has a different, quite tasty flavor (to me at least).

sunfish
09-04-2013, 02:05 AM
I would also like to know of a delicious variety .

bananimal
09-04-2013, 07:37 AM
If you could build one end of the greenhouse taller that would work. Still restricted to Dwarf Namwah, Raja Puri. I have a thing called Datil la Lima. It fruits at 6 ft and has very good fruit. Started 2 mats of Viente Cohol this year that fruits at 5 ft. It's also very short cycle which would get you fruit a lot quicker. Have not tasted the fruit yet. Most of the best tasting fruit are from taller plants.

G.W.
09-04-2013, 08:10 AM
What bananimal said.

My vote for d namwah.
Second vote mahoi.

Has anyones VC lived up to the hype?

Dan Im on the way to your house right now for the datil tastin.

jcbrownacu
09-04-2013, 10:13 AM
the problem is that the roof awning hangs out a couple feet so that would restrict the growth. let me see if i can attach a picture. is it possible to get the main trunk to curve a bit? if so the sky is the limit... :)

venturabananas
09-04-2013, 10:51 AM
I don't know how you keep your Dwarf Namwah shorter than 8-9' to the top of the leaves. After my plants flowered for the first time, at 6-6.5' of p-stem, all the followers have flowered at 7.5-9' of p-stem, or about 12-14' to the tops of the leaves.

FYI, Dan's Datil la Lima is almost certainly Rajapuri. My currently 5-6' tall (p-stem height) Rajapuri has leaves that extend to 10' high.

Abnshrek
09-04-2013, 11:04 AM
I don't know how you keep your Dwarf Namwah shorter than 8-9' to the top of the leaves. After my plants flowered for the first time, at 6-6.5' of p-stem, all the followers have flowered at 7.5-9' of p-stem, or about 12-14' to the tops of the leaves.

FYI, Dan's Datil la Lima is almost certainly Rajapuri. My currently 5-6' tall (p-stem height) Rajapuri has leaves that extend to 10' high.

I don't know about that.. Raja Puri is all green and I swore I saw some Red on the Datil..

jcbrownacu
09-04-2013, 11:13 AM
ive been trying to figure out this whole time how to add a picture...lol!

PR-Giants
09-04-2013, 03:22 PM
FYI, Dan's Datil la Lima is almost certainly Rajapuri. My currently 5-6' tall (p-stem height) Rajapuri has leaves that extend to 10' high.

That's great to know, I wanted another ABB.

bananimal
09-04-2013, 03:57 PM
What bananimal said.

Dan Im on the way to your house right now for the datil tastin.

Too early. A bunch will be ready in about 4 months.

shannondicorse
09-04-2013, 05:20 PM
the problem is that the roof awning hangs out a couple feet so that would restrict the growth. ...is it possible to get the main trunk to curve a bit?...

jcbrownacu,

If you want taste; you may wish to experiment with the shorter varieties of the large "Silk" group of AABs (..also termed "Manzano", "Rastali", "Apple" etc);or the much less varied "Sucrier" or "Pisang Mas" group.

Under hard cover in the tropics you can get flowering at way under 9ft of pseudostem... it's okay if the leaves are bent by the cover as they inevitably will be - not the pseudostem though - that's asking for trouble!

I don't know what's available in your area but these could work. Pisang Mas is an early bearer.


Hope this helps!

shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

PR-Giants
09-04-2013, 07:11 PM
jcbrownacu,

If you want taste; you may wish to experiment with the shorter varieties of the large "Silk" group of AABs (..also termed "Manzano", "Rastali", "Apple" etc);or the much less varied "Sucrier" or "Pisang Mas" group.

Under hard cover in the tropics you can get flowering at way under 9ft of pseudostem...

This is the second time today I've heard of these Mini-Manzanos.

Puerto Rico is littered with feral manzanos, most though are in the 12' - 15' range.

Are these Minis some type of sport?

shannondicorse
09-04-2013, 07:41 PM
This is the second time today I've heard of these Mini-Manzanos.

Puerto Rico is littered with feral manzanos, most though are in the 12' - 15' range.

Are these Minis some type of sport?

PR-Giants,

Yes... the Silk/Manzano/Rastali/ Apple group of AABs is likely to be derived from one fertilisation event; with subsequent farmer selection of favoured somaclonal variants over time. This is what seems to be going on with bananas.

Even very recent 'new' bananas - e.g. FHIA bananas - are showing this. In this case even active means of promoting variation, e.g., tissue culture, are employed. In general, it stands to reason that the longer a lineage is in cultivation, and the wider it is spread; the more variants will exist in cultivation.

This farmer-based selection, BTW, is natural for other clonal crops like Sugar Cane & Cassava (Yuca, Manioc).

In bananas, short stature is often pounced upon by horticulturalists; as it is very desirable in monoclonal cropping... though possibly less so in polyclonal/polyspecies gardens.

So, yes, there are many 'Manzano' variants over the world; and some are evolving as we speak.


shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

Lemmysports
09-04-2013, 07:44 PM
Do dwarf reds have tasty fruit? I've yet to try them.

bananimal
09-04-2013, 08:02 PM
I just started growing Keiths Manzano and still have Nanamans Manz potted which had fruited before in the ground. Fruit was very good, unique.

PR-Giants
09-04-2013, 08:05 PM
I just started growing Keiths Manzano and still have Nanamans Manz potted which had fruited before in the ground. Fruit was very good, unique.


Is that your first feral banana? :woohoonaner:

PR-Giants
09-04-2013, 08:19 PM
Thanks Shannon, that was very interesting, especially the part about pouncing horticulturalists.

All of the Manzano/Rastali/Apple that I've seen have been the tall variants, but I would be interested

in getting a Mini/Midget-Manzano. Not too sure what's the proper name for a vertically challenged Manzano.

Do you have a photo of one in your Gallery?

This is a photo of a Rastali

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=1694&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1694&si=Rastali&what=allfields)

Nicolas Naranja
09-04-2013, 09:42 PM
Dwarf Namwah is a tough dwarf variety.

I've never been a big fan of Raja Puri, but some people are, and it's definitely small and hardy.

Of the Cavendish varieties, I would choose Gran Nain over Dwarf Cavendish. A homegrown cavendish taste way better than anything at your grocery store.

G.W.
09-04-2013, 11:34 PM
I only picked d namwah because its so available and that should make it cheap and easy to replace ; )
Kinda like a teenager's first car, only namwah aren't junky.

Kieth our local feral manzano are 10 ft p.stems and all this talk of minizano has me wondering the same as you.
Where can we get this marvelous midgetzano ?

venturabananas
09-05-2013, 12:29 AM
I don't know about that.. Raja Puri is all green and I swore I saw some Red on the Datil..

Maybe your Rajapuri is all green, but that's not a definitive trait for that variety. The real Datil la Lima (of which you can find photos on the ARS/GRIN website: TARS 17413 - Musa acuminata - Datil La Lima - Florida, United States (http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1647292)) is an AA variety in the Sucrier subgroup. Dan's pseudo-Datil is not that plant. It is neither AA nor Sucrier.

venturabananas
09-05-2013, 12:37 AM
This is the second time today I've heard of these Mini-Manzanos.

Are these Minis some type of sport?

They are a real thing. Unavailable in the US from what I can tell. Here's a link to one on MGIS. They are also mentioned in the Kepler and Rust book, from what I recall.

Welcome to MGIS (http://www.crop-diversity.org/banana/#Accession-01GLP005295)

shannondicorse
09-05-2013, 05:51 AM
...All of the Manzano/Rastali/Apple that I've seen have been the tall variants, but I would be interested in getting a Mini/Midget-Manzano. Not too sure what's the proper name for a vertically challenged Manzano.

PR-Giants,

I've never seen a true "dwarf" ( a la Cavendish) in this group.

What I have seen are vars that would bear a reasonable bunch of fruit coming out of a 7-8foot pseudostem; sometimes even much less.

Such varieties are, I guess "facultative" dwarves. There are some bananas that absolutely insist on growing very tall before they throw out an inflorescence; others can, as circumstances warrant, bear their full compliment of leaves with a shorter pseudostem and thus yield a low hanging bunch.



EXPANSION: I notice that this is also a characteristic of many lines of the wild acuminatas and balbisianas that I've met. Most of the plants in a mat would bear on really towering pseudostems. But under certain conditions - mostly some kind of adversity - flowering occurs on short-statured plants. the bunches & fingers produced are usually adequate though not optimal for the variety.

Banana pseudostems display determinate growth; with (the experts say) 30-50 leaves, all told, emerging before the inflorescence.

Obligate dwarf plants might have a tendency to produce less leaves before flowering; and shorter extended petioles.

See this INIBAP webpage:

Banana Growth (http://platforms.inibap.org/agro/banana_growth.html)
-------------------------------------------------

As for photos of shorter "silk" bearing; I have none; but still, see this amateur video.

Banana Breeding on Trinidad - You Do Not Exist - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlYCp6bFmuU)

In the opening footage the young lady is walking through a small field of "Silk" planted too late in the season on an unfertilised stiff clay loam, initially very low in organic material. This was in a rather dry spell of early March 2013. Rains came in mid-April and the Silk bore more or less at that height you see in the footage.

(Note the "thumbnail" attached to the vid shows massive balbisiana NOT the Silk referred to!!!!)

This variety shown here is prone to such behavior; so do some "Sucrier/Pisang Mas".


sincerely,
shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

PR-Giants
09-05-2013, 10:02 AM
Maybe your Rajapuri is all green, but that's not a definitive trait for that variety. The real Datil la Lima (of which you can find photos on the ARS/GRIN website: TARS 17413 - Musa acuminata - Datil La Lima - Florida, United States (http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1647292)) is an AA variety in the Sucrier subgroup. Dan's pseudo-Datil is not that plant. It is neither AA nor Sucrier.

"The Real Datil la Lima", don't just use blind faith that the photos in your link are accurate.

Many photos on the ARS/GRIN website are mislabeled or wrong, it's not as bad as our Wiki,

but you still need to be very familiar with the plant to be sure.

PR-Giants
09-05-2013, 10:46 AM
They are a real thing. Unavailable in the US from what I can tell. Here's a link to one on MGIS. They are also mentioned in the Kepler and Rust book, from what I recall.

Welcome to MGIS (http://www.crop-diversity.org/banana/#Accession-01GLP005295)

Again, "They are a real thing", they may be but I'll wait for more evidence.

One 1997 CIRAD photo on MGIS and a mention from Kepler.

I try to use logic, and 1 photo in MGIS and then no information about it on the CIRAD (http://www.cirad.fr/en/research-operations/research-results/2009/understanding-banana-domestication-a-crucial-step-towards-improvement) website or from

Christophe Jenny (http://scholar.google.fr/citations?user=P0x-ps8AAAAJ&hl=fr), gives me some doubts.

The Manzano is a popular banana and I think the US Government would have been able to

acquired a Mini-Manzano sample over the past 16 years.

PR-Giants
09-05-2013, 11:04 AM
That's Great :woohoonaner:, post as many photos as you can.

You do such interesting and exciting experiments with bananas and other plants,

I'm sure there are many members here that would love to see some photos in your Gallery.




PR-Giants,

I've never seen a true "dwarf" ( a la Cavendish) in this group.

What I have seen are vars that would bear a reasonable bunch of fruit coming out of a 7-8foot pseudostem; sometimes even much less.

Such varieties are, I guess "facultative" dwarves. There are some bananas that absolutely insist on growing very tall before they throw out an inflorescence; others can, as circumstances warrant, bear their full compliment of leaves with a shorter pseudostem and thus yield a low hanging bunch.



EXPANSION: I notice that this is also a characteristic of many lines of the wild acuminatas and balbisianas that I've met. Most of the plants in a mat would bear on really towering pseudostems. But under certain conditions - mostly some kind of adversity - flowering occurs on short-statured plants. the bunches & fingers produced are usually adequate though not optimal for the variety.

Banana pseudostems display determinate growth; with (the experts say) 30-50 leaves, all told, emerging before the inflorescence.

Obligate dwarf plants might have a tendency to produce less leaves before flowering; and shorter extended petioles.

See this INIBAP webpage:

Banana Growth (http://platforms.inibap.org/agro/banana_growth.html)
-------------------------------------------------

As for photos of shorter "silk" bearing; I have none; but still, see this amateur video.

Banana Breeding on Trinidad - You Do Not Exist - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlYCp6bFmuU)

In the opening footage the young lady is walking through a small field of "Silk" planted too late in the season on an unfertilised stiff clay loam, initially very low in organic material. This was in a rather dry spell of early March 2013. Rains came in mid-April and the Silk bore more or less at that height you see in the footage.

(Note the "thumbnail" attached to the vid shows massive balbisiana NOT the Silk referred to!!!!)

This variety shown here is prone to such behavior; so do some "Sucrier/Pisang Mas".


sincerely,
shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com



:08::08::08:

Geneticists, geographers, archaeologists and linguists collaborated to trace the history of bananas. They revealed how, via human migration, isolated primitive fertile forms growing in South-East Asia evolved into sterile triploid forms, which account for most of the dessert bananas and plantains produced nowadays. These findings open new avenues for banana breeding.
Parthenocarpy, i.e. seedless fruit pulp development, is a major factor in banana domestication. The resulting sterility is offset by vegetative propagation. This feature first appeared in diploid forms in South-East Asia, and then became widespread in triploid cultivars, which account for most banana production. The cultivated subgroups combine genomes of Musa acuminata (denoted A) and M. balbisiana (B): dessert bananas (AAA), Mutika from East Africa (AAA), plantains from Africa and the Pacific region (AAB), Pome and other subgroups from India (AAB and ABB).
Improved varieties are essential in all of these regions to overcome problems of disease development, pesticide treatment restrictions and environmental degradation. These varieties must be adapted to local conditions and be in line with the taste, culinary and technological qualities of the different cultivars.
Sterility is still a major constraint to improvement, which is inevitably based on hybridization between fertile forms in breeding schemes that are always very short. To replicate the traits of cultivated triploid bananas, the parent stock must be close to the original diploid parents. A clear understanding of phylogenetic organization of the diversity is thus essential.
Migrations, exchanges and evolutionary processes
CIRAD has a collection of over 500 genotypes in Guadeloupe. SSR and DArT molecular marker analyses were recently carried out to complete the characterization (morphological, biological, genetic, etc.) of these accessions. The overall results highlighted key events in the process of evolution from wild forms to triploids via cultivated diploids.
Musa diversity is based on the preliminary differentiation of M. acuminata into subspecies through geographical isolation in South-East Asia: banksii in Papua New Guinea, zebrina in Java, errans in the Philippines, and malaccensis in Indonesia. There is evidence of the predomestication of these wild forms, probably for uses other than fruit production, in Papua New Guinea 7 000 years ago.
However, the main event was the inevitable contact between these different naturally isolated subspecies during exchanges between human groups. The resulting hybrids, which combine differentiated genomes, contain meiotic errors, which were responsible for the infertility and the formation of diploid gametes, which in turn gave rise to triploid forms.
Three South-East Asian regions from which current bananas originated
Three contact zones were identified. The human movements involved occurred over 4000 years ago, as confirmed by linguistic analysis.
The southern zone, where contact occurred between banksii from Papua New Guinea and zebrina from Java, gave rise to triploid AAA Mutika, which subsequently reached Africa as a result of long- distance human migrations. The Mlali (AA) subgroup, from which important triploids derive, also came from this zone but was only preserved on East African islands.
In the eastern zone, banksii from Papua New Guinea came in contact with errans from the Philippines. M. balbisiana was also present and then hybridized with banksii to generate AAB cultivars, which in turn spread to the Pacific Islands.
This also separately gave rise to AAB plantains which then reached Africa at least 2500 years ago, as indicated by archaeological findings of plantain shoots in Cameroon. Somatic mutations that accumulated via vegetative propagation were responsible for the broad phenotypic diversity that is currently present.
Sweet diploids, which are still quite widely cropped, originated from the northern zone of contact between malaccensis and microcarpa from Borneo and errans from the Philippines.
Their hybridization with AA Mlali forms, which were transported by humans from the southern zone, generated various AAA cultivars, including Cavendish dessert bananas. This northward spread of Mlali continued to India, as confirmed by linguistic evidence. Hybridization with M. balbisiana, which is endemic to India, gave rise to AAB Pome and other closely-related groups.
Towards new banana improvement strategies
The history of banana domestication can be traced through combined genetic, geographical, linguistic and archaeological analyses. Human migrations have had a major role in generating the specific genetic associations that have given current domesticated forms their precious features. Based on these results, new parental combinations can be investigated for banana breeding purposes, while also identifying key areas for targeted germplasm collection surveys.

Understanding banana domestication: a crucial step towards improvement - CIRAD (http://www.cirad.fr/en/research-operations/research-results/2009/understanding-banana-domestication-a-crucial-step-towards-improvement)

Nicolas Naranja
09-05-2013, 11:10 AM
Maybe your Rajapuri is all green, but that's not a definitive trait for that variety. The real Datil la Lima (of which you can find photos on the ARS/GRIN website: TARS 17413 - Musa acuminata - Datil La Lima - Florida, United States (http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1647292)) is an AA variety in the Sucrier subgroup. Dan's pseudo-Datil is not that plant. It is neither AA nor Sucrier.


There are some pictures on here of Datil La Lima where and it does look a lot like raja puri.

PR-Giants
09-05-2013, 11:19 AM
I need help. I've been reading through these forums so much, but I'm even more confused. I have a courtyard that will be made into a greenhouse each winter so temp should never get below freezing (hoping for more like 50, but time will tell). I have about 8-9' to the roof so that will be my height requirement, but I really want something that tastes absolutely delicious. Im in Dallas so it has to take some 105 days during the summer. Wind will be low.

So to summarize:
Max 9'
Temp not below freezing
Low wind
Amazing flavor

Thanks so much and happy nanners!
Josh

Dwarf Red or Dwarf Green Red, simply amazing.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=54357 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=54357)

venturabananas
09-05-2013, 11:55 AM
"The Real Datil la Lima", don't just use blind faith that the photos in your link are accurate.

Many photos on the ARS/GRIN website are mislabeled or wrong, it's not as bad as our Wiki,

but you still need to be very familiar with the plant to be sure.

Point taken, but in this case, I am sure that the plant in their photo is the real deal because the PR ARS/GRIN is the only source of Datil la Lima in the world that I am aware of, and the director told me that it is a typical AA Sucrier variety, not an AAB. The plant in their photos is a typical AA Sucrier. The one Dan has is a dwarf AAB.

venturabananas
09-05-2013, 12:06 PM
Again, "They are a real thing", they may be but I'll wait for more evidence.

One 1997 CIRAD photo on MGIS and a mention from Kepler.

I try to use logic, and 1 photo in MGIS and then no information about it on the CIRAD (http://www.cirad.fr/en/research-operations/research-results/2009/understanding-banana-domestication-a-crucial-step-towards-improvement) website or from

Christophe Jenny (http://scholar.google.fr/citations?user=P0x-ps8AAAAJ&hl=fr), gives me some doubts.

The Manzano is a popular banana and I think the US Government would have been able to acquired a Mini-Manzano sample over the past 16 years.

It's more than a mention in Kepler and Rust. There are photos of semi-dwarf Silk subgroup plants (7-9') with messy rachis -- a characteristic of most dwarfed varieties.

Given that the US Government's collection of bananas is far from complete, I'm not compelled by that argument that they would have it in their collection.

venturabananas
09-05-2013, 12:21 PM
Shannon, that video was very well done for an amateur production. Very informative. Cool project. Good luck with it.

PR-Giants
09-05-2013, 12:43 PM
Point taken, but in this case, I am sure that the plant in their photo is the real deal because the PR ARS/GRIN is the only source of Datil la Lima in the world that I am aware of, and the director told me that it is a typical AA Sucrier variety, not an AAB. The plant in their photos is a typical AA Sucrier. The one Dan has is a dwarf AAB.

TIFWIW, which isn't much.

I heard from someone that, I believe, said they spoke directly to Brian Irish the Curator at PR ARS/GRIN, and said he acknowledge that either the photos, data, or both were inaccurate.

I don't know if that's the old info listed now or if it has been changed for the new info.

If PR ARS/GRIN is the only source of Datil la Lima in the world, then it's probably correct, multiple sourcing is overrated.

The plant in their photos appears to be a typical AA Sucrier.

PR-Giants
09-05-2013, 12:51 PM
Given that the US Government's collection of bananas is far from complete, I'm not compelled by that argument that they would have it in their collection.

The US Government's collection of bananas may be far from complete, but they usually have the

Dwarf version of the common supermarket bananas, Manzano might be the second most common sm banana.

venturabananas
09-05-2013, 01:53 PM
I heard from someone that, I believe, said they spoke directly to Brian Irish the Curator at PR ARS/GRIN, and said he acknowledge that either the photos, data, or both were inaccurate.


I corresponded with him and what he said was the photos of Dan's plants were not Datil la Lima, and they'd had some mix ups it the TC plants that had been distributed.

venturabananas
09-05-2013, 02:05 PM
The US Government's collection of bananas may be far from complete, but they usually have the

Dwarf version of the common supermarket bananas, Manzano might be the second most common sm banana.

I think there's no question that there isn't a widely available dwarf or semi-dwarf Silk variety (Silk is the subgroup that includes Manzano). I wish there were. I've never seen either (dwarf or semi-dwarf) in person, but the photos in the Kepler and Rust book convince me that a semi-dwarf variety exists. Gabe also mentioned Ungoye Sweet as a "short Silk variety", which I take to mean that it isn't a true dwarf, but fruits at a shorter-than normal height for this subgroup. Unfortunately, he never mentioned the height at which it fruited, though the photos do suggest it was less than 10'. The rest of his review of this variety, however, wasn't positive.

http://www.bananas.org/f2/year-growing-bananas-11667.html

shannondicorse
09-05-2013, 05:52 PM
PR-Giants,

Thanks for bringing the results of your investigation to the membership-at-large of bananas.org.

I know this is a digression; but I do firmly believe that it is a very important one - as I shall explain lastly; way down at the end of this brontosaurus of a post.

Three allied but separate groups on Trinidad are now breeding bananas. Mizz Vale's group; Kyle De Lima's TnT bananas; and myself.

We have inherited a lot. Trinidad, via the ICTA, now the University of The West Indies at St Augustine ( ...there are also UWI campuses at Debe, Trinidad; at Mona, Jamaica; and at Cave Hill, Barbados..) produced the 1st commercial hybrid IC-2 in, I think, 1928. It is still grown today.

I'll now deal with elements of the CIRAD summary that you quoted here:

1) Parthenocarpy, i.e. seedless fruit pulp development, is a major factor in banana domestication....

Agreed to some extent - this is the traditional view - but bananas are important enough to warrant outright horticultural usage in addition to 'cultiwild' employment by pre-civilised humans.

Quite apart from fibre and other such uses; unmodified seedy species bananas are good food and medicine that apparently warranted cultivation (...and still do today).

The immature stem leading to the flower stalk within the pseudostem is often good eating. The flowers are often good eating; and the "bell" is often eaten cooked. These are all documented as important foods in banana areas of the homeland range even today - despite the rise of the parthenocarpic bananas and what I call the the "triploid revolution".

Western scientists who are possibly deeply prejudiced by the 20th Century monoclonal production of Cavendish don't seem to understand this fundamental importance of wildtype diploid bananas in the native range.

In addition, even before the appearance of the so-called "p1" gene that is necessary for parthenocarpy; precivilised swidden horticulturalists, like modern day tribesmen and rural villagers, could utilise semi-mature green seeded bananas in cooking at the stage when the seeds are soft and white; i.e., before they eventually harden and turn black. Even when wild seeded fruits ripen; the large-fruited kinds (banksii & balbisiana come to mind) yield very useful pulp when sieved.

So there was compelling motive for keeping stands of wild-type bananas in cultivation long before the appearance of full parthenocarpy.

And following this line of thought and the modern evidence - there was compelling reason to translocate wild seedy acuminata subspecies hundreds of miles out of their home ranges and into the range of different acuminata subspecies.

2) This feature (parthenocarpy) first appeared in diploid forms in South-East Asia, and then became widespread in triploid cultivars, which account for most banana production.

This, I think, is pure speculation on the part of the banana establishment. Papua New Guinea is an equal or (IMHO) likelier candidate for the origin of "p1". Or p1 might have appeared multiple times. I do not know if this aspect has been studied in any detail. p1 is a "classical" gene - construed from early breeding experiments in Trinidad, I believe - and I've seemed no postgenomics-era study so far.

3) Sterility is still a major constraint to improvement, which is inevitably based on hybridization between fertile forms in breeding schemes that are always very short

This "sterility" issue is largely because professional breeders INSIST on using rather female-sterile cultivated bananas to make "improvements" on Cavendish wannabes and Plantains.

But many triploid seedless bananas - the majority, I might think - yield useful amounts of pollen to fertilise wild-type bananas. Once you dispense with the old approach you can tackle this very common approach to use genomes of almost all the wild species to produce a vast number of useful cultivars.

Why aren't the professionals doing this? Beats me - as Americans would say. Why are we still building massive failure-prone nuclear reactors out of reinforced concrete when by the early '60s we knew how to do much better? Explain that one!

4) Musa diversity is based on the preliminary differentiation of M. acuminata into subspecies through geographical isolation in South-East Asia: banksii in Papua New Guinea, zebrina in Java, errans in the Philippines, and malaccensis in Indonesia.

This is the real power of Musa acuminata: chromosomal translocations in allopatric acuminata subspecies that facilitate faulty meiosis, including 2x gamete production; massive chromosomal mutation leading to phenotype shifts; and partial or complete sterility in acuminata hybrids.

Even within a given subspecies home range, translocation specific populations can arise and come to dominance by genetic drift. The rise of Neolithic swidden horticulture facilitates large populations of Musa acuminata as a species; over the other less weedy true forest species. So the above process would be hypothetically fostered in the Neolithic. Humans 'helped' the species no end; and Nature apparently returned the favour.

4)...The southern zone, where contact occurred between banksii from Papua New Guinea and zebrina from Java, gave rise to triploid AAA Mutika, which subsequently reached Africa as a result of long- distance human migrations. The Mlali (AA) subgroup, from which important triploids derive, also came from this zone but was only preserved on East African islands.

...In the eastern zone, banksii from Papua New Guinea came in contact with errans from the Philippines. M. balbisiana was also present and then hybridized with banksii to generate AAB cultivars, which in turn spread to the Pacific Islands.

...This also separately gave rise to AAB plantains which then reached Africa at least 2500 years ago, as indicated by archaeological findings of plantain shoots in Cameroon. Somatic mutations that accumulated via vegetative propagation were responsible for the broad phenotypic diversity that is currently present.

...Sweet diploids, which are still quite widely cropped, originated from the northern zone of contact between malaccensis and microcarpa from Borneo and errans from the Philippines.

Their hybridization with AA Mlali forms, which were transported by humans from the southern zone, generated various AAA cultivars, including Cavendish dessert bananas. This northward spread of Mlali continued to India, as confirmed by linguistic evidence.

Notice the central role of the Islands versus the Continent of S.E Asia. This means that we still have a huge genetic heritage of continental Musa acuminata malaccensis, burmmanicoides, siamea etc and the host of non-acuminata species that we now know sport the acuminata genome.

What does this mean to us amateurs at bananas.org?

I say - plenty!

We can do our own breeding, if we take the time to familiarise ourselves with the banana terrain. The Orchid people do it. The Canna people do it. The Rose people do it. The Passionflower people do it. The lily people do it. Why can't we?

Very sincerely,

shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

sunfish
09-05-2013, 06:08 PM
PR-Giants,

Thanks for bringing the results of your investigation to the membership-at-large of bananas.org.

I know this is a digression; but I do firmly believe that it is a very important one - as I shall explain lastly; way down at the end of this brontosaurus of a post.

Three allied but separate groups on Trinidad are now breeding bananas. Mizz Vale's group; Kyle De Lima's TnT bananas; and myself.

We have inherited a lot. Trinidad, via the ICTA, now the University of The West Indies at St Augustine ( ...there are also UWI campuses at Debe, Trinidad; at Mona, Jamaica; and at Cave Hill, Barbados..) produced the 1st commercial hybrid IC-2 in, I think, 1928. It is still grown today.

I'll now deal with elements of the CIRAD summary that you quoted here:

1) Parthenocarpy, i.e. seedless fruit pulp development, is a major factor in banana domestication....

Agreed to some extent - this is the traditional view - but bananas are important enough to warrant outright horticultural usage in addition to 'cultiwild' employment by pre-civilised humans.

Quite apart from fibre and other such uses; unmodified seedy species bananas are good food and medicine that apparently warranted cultivation (...and still do today).

The immature stem leading to the flower stalk within the pseudostem is often good eating. The flowers are often good eating; and the "bell" is often eaten cooked. These are all documented as important foods in banana areas of the homeland range even today - despite the rise of the parthenocarpic bananas and what I call the the "triploid revolution".

Western scientists who are possibly deeply prejudiced by the 20th Century monoclonal production of Cavendish don't seem to understand this fundamental importance of wildtype diploid bananas in the native range.

In addition, even before the appearance of the so-called "p1" gene that is necessary for parthenocarpy; precivilised swidden horticulturalists, like modern day tribesmen and rural villagers, could utilise semi-mature green seeded bananas in cooking at the stage when the seeds are soft and white; i.e., before they eventually harden and turn black. Even when wild seeded fruits ripen; the large-fruited kinds (banksii & balbisiana come to mind) yield very useful pulp when sieved.

So there was compelling motive for keeping stands of wild-type bananas in cultivation long before the appearance of full parthenocarpy.

And following this line of thought and the modern evidence - there was compelling reason to translocate wild seedy acuminata subspecies hundreds of miles out of their home ranges and into the range of different acuminata subspecies.

2) This feature (parthenocarpy) first appeared in diploid forms in South-East Asia, and then became widespread in triploid cultivars, which account for most banana production.

This, I think, is pure speculation on the part of the banana establishment. Papua New Guinea is an equal or (IMHO) likelier candidate for the origin of "p1". Or p1 might have appeared multiple times. I do not know if this aspect has been studied in any detail. p1 is a "classical" gene - construed from early breeding experiments in Trinidad, I believe - and I've seemed no postgenomics-era study so far.

3) Sterility is still a major constraint to improvement, which is inevitably based on hybridization between fertile forms in breeding schemes that are always very short

This "sterility" issue is largely because professional breeders INSIST on using rather female-sterile cultivated bananas to make "improvements" on Cavendish wannabes and Plantains.

But many triploid seedless bananas - the majority, I might think - yield useful amounts of pollen to fertilise wild-type bananas. Once you dispense with the old approach you can tackle this very common approach to use genomes of almost all the wild species to produce a vast number of useful cultivars.

Why aren't the professionals doing this? Beats me - as Americans would say. Why are we still building massive failure-prone nuclear reactors out of reinforced concrete when by the early '60s we knew how to do much better? Explain that one!

4) Musa diversity is based on the preliminary differentiation of M. acuminata into subspecies through geographical isolation in South-East Asia: banksii in Papua New Guinea, zebrina in Java, errans in the Philippines, and malaccensis in Indonesia.

This is the real power of Musa acuminata: chromosomal translocations in allopatric acuminata subspecies that facilitate faulty meiosis, including 2x gamete production; massive chromosomal mutation leading to phenotype shifts; and partial or complete sterility in acuminata hybrids.

Even within a given subspecies home range, translocation specific populations can arise and come to dominance by genetic drift. The rise of Neolithic swidden horticulture facilitates large populations of Musa acuminata as a species; over the other less weedy true forest species. So the above process would be hypothetically fostered in the Neolithic. Humans 'helped' the species no end; and Nature apparently returned the favour.

4)...The southern zone, where contact occurred between banksii from Papua New Guinea and zebrina from Java, gave rise to triploid AAA Mutika, which subsequently reached Africa as a result of long- distance human migrations. The Mlali (AA) subgroup, from which important triploids derive, also came from this zone but was only preserved on East African islands.

...In the eastern zone, banksii from Papua New Guinea came in contact with errans from the Philippines. M. balbisiana was also present and then hybridized with banksii to generate AAB cultivars, which in turn spread to the Pacific Islands.

...This also separately gave rise to AAB plantains which then reached Africa at least 2500 years ago, as indicated by archaeological findings of plantain shoots in Cameroon. Somatic mutations that accumulated via vegetative propagation were responsible for the broad phenotypic diversity that is currently present.

...Sweet diploids, which are still quite widely cropped, originated from the northern zone of contact between malaccensis and microcarpa from Borneo and errans from the Philippines.

Their hybridization with AA Mlali forms, which were transported by humans from the southern zone, generated various AAA cultivars, including Cavendish dessert bananas. This northward spread of Mlali continued to India, as confirmed by linguistic evidence.

Notice the central role of the Islands versus the Continent of S.E Asia. This means that we still have a huge genetic heritage of continental Musa acuminata malaccensis, burmmanicoides, siamea etc and the host of non-acuminata species that we now know sport the acuminata genome.

What does this mean to us amateurs at bananas.org?

I say - plenty!

We can do our own breeding, if we take the time to familiarise ourselves with the banana terrain. The Orchid people do it. The Canna people do it. The Rose people do it. The Passionflower people do it. The lily people do it. Why can't we?

Very sincerely,

shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

Because it takes too long in my climate :ha:

shannondicorse
09-05-2013, 06:39 PM
Because it takes too long in my climate

Sunfish,

Here is a recipe (because I know you breed stuff)!!

Don't think like the experts. Never think like the "experts"!

Choose velutina. Pollinate with say Orinoco or Silk or some other var that supports diploid pollen. Why velutina - well it's a naturally dwarf species that can grow from seed to fruit in ONE YEAR!

ABBs tend to produce B and AB gametes; AABs produce A & AB.

Emasculate velutina flowers and pollinate with cultivar pollen.

Even though velutina hosts what appears to be an acuminata genome; let's call its genome V.

Grow out the seeds. You'll select triploids for ABV. Most likely you'll get parthenocarpic specimens in the lot (at least with the Orinoco from my experience).

This first grow out might take two years.

Try to find fertile pollen on these selected triploids and backcross to velutina; selecting for triploids if at all possible.

Somewhere along the backcross you might get parthenocarpic seed fertile plants. A big plus!

Eventually you might end up with diploid & triploid lines of essentially parthenocarpic (...and seedless in the case of the triploid) velutina.

Ripe velutina is yummy; and a one year cycle can work in the temperate growing seasons.

Now there's innovation for you.

Pink velvet bananas without seeds in your backyard! Doable in the chilly climes of the North!


shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

PR-Giants
09-05-2013, 06:50 PM
PR-Giants,

Thanks for bringing the results of your investigation to the membership-at-large of bananas.org.

I know this is a digression; but I do firmly believe that it is a very important one - as I shall explain lastly; way down at the end of this brontosaurus of a post.

Three allied but separate groups on Trinidad are now breeding bananas. Mizz Vale's group; Kyle De Lima's TnT bananas; and myself.

We have inherited a lot. Trinidad, via the ICTA, now the University of The West Indies at St Augustine ( ...there are also UWI campuses at Debe, Trinidad; at Mona, Jamaica; and at Cave Hill, Barbados..) produced the 1st commercial hybrid IC-2 in, I think, 1928. It is still grown today.

I'll now deal with elements of the CIRAD summary that you quoted here:

1) Parthenocarpy, i.e. seedless fruit pulp development, is a major factor in banana domestication....

Agreed to some extent - this is the traditional view - but bananas are important enough to warrant outright horticultural usage in addition to 'cultiwild' employment by pre-civilised humans.

Quite apart from fibre and other such uses; unmodified seedy species bananas are good food and medicine that apparently warranted cultivation (...and still do today).

The immature stem leading to the flower stalk within the pseudostem is often good eating. The flowers are often good eating; and the "bell" is often eaten cooked. These are all documented as important foods in banana areas of the homeland range even today - despite the rise of the parthenocarpic bananas and what I call the the "triploid revolution".

Western scientists who are possibly deeply prejudiced by the 20th Century monoclonal production of Cavendish don't seem to understand this fundamental importance of wildtype diploid bananas in the native range.

In addition, even before the appearance of the so-called "p1" gene that is necessary for parthenocarpy; precivilised swidden horticulturalists, like modern day tribesmen and rural villagers, could utilise semi-mature green seeded bananas in cooking at the stage when the seeds are soft and white; i.e., before they eventually harden and turn black. Even when wild seeded fruits ripen; the large-fruited kinds (banksii & balbisiana come to mind) yield very useful pulp when sieved.

So there was compelling motive for keeping stands of wild-type bananas in cultivation long before the appearance of full parthenocarpy.

And following this line of thought and the modern evidence - there was compelling reason to translocate wild seedy acuminata subspecies hundreds of miles out of their home ranges and into the range of different acuminata subspecies.

2) This feature (parthenocarpy) first appeared in diploid forms in South-East Asia, and then became widespread in triploid cultivars, which account for most banana production.

This, I think, is pure speculation on the part of the banana establishment. Papua New Guinea is an equal or (IMHO) likelier candidate for the origin of "p1". Or p1 might have appeared multiple times. I do not know if this aspect has been studied in any detail. p1 is a "classical" gene - construed from early breeding experiments in Trinidad, I believe - and I've seemed no postgenomics-era study so far.

3) Sterility is still a major constraint to improvement, which is inevitably based on hybridization between fertile forms in breeding schemes that are always very short

This "sterility" issue is largely because professional breeders INSIST on using rather female-sterile cultivated bananas to make "improvements" on Cavendish wannabes and Plantains.

But many triploid seedless bananas - the majority, I might think - yield useful amounts of pollen to fertilise wild-type bananas. Once you dispense with the old approach you can tackle this very common approach to use genomes of almost all the wild species to produce a vast number of useful cultivars.

Why aren't the professionals doing this? Beats me - as Americans would say. Why are we still building massive failure-prone nuclear reactors out of reinforced concrete when by the early '60s we knew how to do much better? Explain that one!

4) Musa diversity is based on the preliminary differentiation of M. acuminata into subspecies through geographical isolation in South-East Asia: banksii in Papua New Guinea, zebrina in Java, errans in the Philippines, and malaccensis in Indonesia.

This is the real power of Musa acuminata: chromosomal translocations in allopatric acuminata subspecies that facilitate faulty meiosis, including 2x gamete production; massive chromosomal mutation leading to phenotype shifts; and partial or complete sterility in acuminata hybrids.

Even within a given subspecies home range, translocation specific populations can arise and come to dominance by genetic drift. The rise of Neolithic swidden horticulture facilitates large populations of Musa acuminata as a species; over the other less weedy true forest species. So the above process would be hypothetically fostered in the Neolithic. Humans 'helped' the species no end; and Nature apparently returned the favour.

4)...The southern zone, where contact occurred between banksii from Papua New Guinea and zebrina from Java, gave rise to triploid AAA Mutika, which subsequently reached Africa as a result of long- distance human migrations. The Mlali (AA) subgroup, from which important triploids derive, also came from this zone but was only preserved on East African islands.

...In the eastern zone, banksii from Papua New Guinea came in contact with errans from the Philippines. M. balbisiana was also present and then hybridized with banksii to generate AAB cultivars, which in turn spread to the Pacific Islands.

...This also separately gave rise to AAB plantains which then reached Africa at least 2500 years ago, as indicated by archaeological findings of plantain shoots in Cameroon. Somatic mutations that accumulated via vegetative propagation were responsible for the broad phenotypic diversity that is currently present.

...Sweet diploids, which are still quite widely cropped, originated from the northern zone of contact between malaccensis and microcarpa from Borneo and errans from the Philippines.

Their hybridization with AA Mlali forms, which were transported by humans from the southern zone, generated various AAA cultivars, including Cavendish dessert bananas. This northward spread of Mlali continued to India, as confirmed by linguistic evidence.

Notice the central role of the Islands versus the Continent of S.E Asia. This means that we still have a huge genetic heritage of continental Musa acuminata malaccensis, burmmanicoides, siamea etc and the host of non-acuminata species that we now know sport the acuminata genome.

What does this mean to us amateurs at bananas.org?

I say - plenty!

We can do our own breeding, if we take the time to familiarise ourselves with the banana terrain. The Orchid people do it. The Canna people do it. The Rose people do it. The Passionflower people do it. The lily people do it. Why can't we?

Very sincerely,

shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

That was interesting. :waving:

PR-Giants
09-05-2013, 06:51 PM
Sunfish,

Here is a recipe (because I know you breed stuff)!!

Don't think like the experts. Never think like the "experts"!

Choose velutina. Pollinate with say Orinoco or Silk or some other var that supports diploid pollen. Why velutina - well it's a naturally dwarf species that can grow from seed to fruit in ONE YEAR!

ABBs tend to produce B and AB gametes; AABs produce A & AB.

Emasculate velutina flowers and pollinate with cultivar pollen.

Even though velutina hosts what appears to be an acuminata genome; let's call its genome V.

Grow out the seeds. You'll select triploids for ABV. Most likely you'll get parthenocarpic specimens in the lot (at least with the Orinoco from my experience).

This first grow out might take two years.

Try to find fertile pollen on these selected triploids and backcross to velutina; selecting for triploids if at all possible.

Somewhere along the backcross you might get parthenocarpic seed fertile plants. A big plus!

Eventually you might end up with diploid & triploid lines of essentially parthenocarpic (...and seedless in the case of the triploid) velutina.

Ripe velutina is yummy; and a one year cycle can work in the temperate growing seasons.

Now there's innovation for you.

Pink velvet bananas without seeds in your backyard! Doable in the chilly climes of the North!


shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

This is very interesting. :woohoonaner:

shannondicorse
09-05-2013, 07:19 PM
This is very interesting. (PR-Giants was commenting on an outline plan to breed essentially a parthenocarpic seedless Musa velutina -shannon)

PR-Giants,

Thanks for the interest.

My underlying point is that banana breeding is 7 decades old; has gobbled up million$$ and has produced comparatively little. The return on investment will have any VC running for the hills!

This is simply because of "entrenched professionalism"

Massive dessert banana monoculture is under 100 years old and has created ecological, phytopathological & social nightmares.

This is, I think, because of "entrenched greed".

Only amateurs can dare to buck the system... as only amateurs have nothing to lose.

The essence of breeding is vast knowledge, planning and patience. Not money, as the pros would like us to believe.

Amateurs can amass that sort of capital. This is not to say that I do not admire some breeders.

There is always a lot to admire. Very little, I'm afraid, to emulate.

shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

sunfish
09-05-2013, 07:37 PM
Sunfish,

Here is a recipe (because I know you breed stuff)!!

Don't think like the experts. Never think like the "experts"!

Choose velutina. Pollinate with say Orinoco or Silk or some other var that supports diploid pollen. Why velutina - well it's a naturally dwarf species that can grow from seed to fruit in ONE YEAR!

ABBs tend to produce B and AB gametes; AABs produce A & AB.

Emasculate velutina flowers and pollinate with cultivar pollen.

Even though velutina hosts what appears to be an acuminata genome; let's call its genome V.

Grow out the seeds. You'll select triploids for ABV. Most likely you'll get parthenocarpic specimens in the lot (at least with the Orinoco from my experience).

This first grow out might take two years.

Try to find fertile pollen on these selected triploids and backcross to velutina; selecting for triploids if at all possible.

Somewhere along the backcross you might get parthenocarpic seed fertile plants. A big plus!

Eventually you might end up with diploid & triploid lines of essentially parthenocarpic (...and seedless in the case of the triploid) velutina.

Ripe velutina is yummy; and a one year cycle can work in the temperate growing seasons.

Now there's innovation for you.

Pink velvet bananas without seeds in your backyard! Doable in the chilly climes of the North!


shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com


:woohoonaner:

PR-Giants
09-05-2013, 09:07 PM
Massive dessert banana monoculture is under 100 years old and has created ecological, phytopathological & social nightmares.


I don't see the problem, can you be a little more specific & concise.

Does T&T have the "No Chiquita Law"?

G.W.
09-05-2013, 10:47 PM
Monoculture does not ecological diversity make.

Fusarium and sigatoka are pandemic.

Banana republics and accumulation of lands by large corporations away from indigenous peoples.

Health damage caused to workers by for example diazanon exposure in the pineapple industry and following chronic illness or chronic illness by environmental contamination.

shannondicorse
09-06-2013, 05:57 AM
I don't see the problem, can you be a little more specific & concise.

Does T&T have the "No Chiquita Law"?

PR-Giants,

Alas, I can't be that concise! After all, you asked a deep question.

1) Much of the troubling diseases that plague bananas are the result of massive monoclonal culture. A pathogen or a pest has a generation time that is usually orders of magnitude less than the banana.

Thus a monoclonal monocrop agroecology is a sitting duck for pathogen evolution. You can't sustainably breed your way out of the mess using vertical resistance strategies because the pathogen, in evolutionary terms, will ALWAYS outrun you.

Even with reproductively sterile cultivars like bananas, a polyclonal polyspecies crop system that includes rotational cycles will drastically reduce or negate most disease threats. Introducing multigene resistance into bananas by rapidly breeding multiple "versions" of a a varietal type, to albeit imprecise phenotype specifications, is a valuable adjunct strategy.

The problem, as I see it, is that crop scientists, business people & farmers are human; and almost never question their unspoken assumptions.

2) The business model that is touted in the (usually) precarious economies of banana-growing countries is the single variety export mode. So the proposition begets the pestilence. And the pestilence is also economic.

The idea is always: grow an export commodity crop; use foreign direct investment wherever possible (making the farmers even more beholden to unsustainable practices...); redress a pitiful Balance of Trade/forex situation; and let your technocrats learn from agricultural syllabuses created by folks who, for one or two centuries, have had far different needs from that of the people of the banana growing countries.

3) Lastly, once you have largely uneducated farmers in a poor country at the mercy of a single commodity (somewhat as the good people of T&T are at the mercy of oil and gas...); and when that commodity is as vulnerable at home and abroad as a single variety of dessert bananas; well... the cycle of unending poverty, chronic social distress and sociopolitical upheaval is instituted.

Good Sustainably Profitable Agriculture is critcal to the futures - and vulnerable fledgling democracies - of these countries. But who looks at that?



shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

shannondicorse
09-06-2013, 06:01 AM
Monoculture does not ecological diversity make.

Fusarium and sigatoka are pandemic.

Banana republics and accumulation of lands by large corporations away from indigenous peoples.

Health damage caused to workers by for example diazanon exposure in the pineapple industry and following chronic illness or chronic illness by environmental contamination.

GW...u da man (or woman!)... and sooo very CONCISE TOO!!! lol

shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

shannondicorse
09-06-2013, 06:11 AM
Does T&T have the "No Chiquita Law"?

PR-Giants.

NO WE DON'T!! We're desperately courting foreign direct investment like any other economically vulnerable small country. Chiquita, ur WELCOME!!

Ok, good, I did my duty! I toed the line!!!!!!

But to be fair....Even Aerosmith LOVES Chiquita!!

Ooh, on the beach at cartegena
she, salty baby with the name-a
oh, chiquita
oh, love chiquita
she, takes to walkin' in the sunshine
she, she'll be lovin' till the moon shine
love chiquita
oh, love chiquita
she, got the poppy-eyed desire
tease, till the boys put out the fire
love chiquita
oh, love chiquita
oh no no, now don't you wake me up I'm dreaming
no no no, if you shake me I'll be screaming
love chiquita
oh love chiquita


Steven 4give me!
---------------------

shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

Abnshrek
09-06-2013, 06:20 AM
Talk about a thread High-Jackin'.. :^)

shannondicorse
09-06-2013, 07:36 AM
Talk about a thread High-Jackin'

It was an exigency. Sorry!

(But, then again, in this universe, everything is connected)

shannon

shannon.di.corse@mail.com

Abnshrek
09-06-2013, 08:03 AM
No, need for all that apologizing stuff.. I just wish we could give this person a solid choice.. I think location is going to kill the banana in the summer (in a green house unless it has ventilation and shade cloth.. Ever been in one when its a hundred? More like an oven.. I think over wintering may be done in the GH but this person has to plant it in the yard come spring, for growth in particular. Then repot it for Winter like Nph does.. If a height restriction comes into play angle it towards the southern sky.. like Greenfin.. I say get whatever kind, type of banana you want to grow Goldfinger, DB, D. Nam, FHIA03, etc.. since your going to be growing the plant over multiple years anyway. If you apply enough resources you can fruit in the 2nd yr (that being anytime after the 1st year is complete), and w/ luck collect some bounty... If I would've gotten my FHIA 03 in spring last year I might have had some bounty off it, but its going to flower before winter so timing is everything.. There's always a chance the following year w/ a monster pup.. :^)

shannondicorse
09-06-2013, 08:21 AM
No, need for all apologizing stuff.. I just wish we could give this person a solid choice.. I think location is going to kill the banana in the summer (in a green house unless it has ventilation and shade cloth..

Abnshrek,

My assumption is that the greenhouse would be designed for easy spring and summer free-ventilation. Otherwise the grower would have to use expensive forced ventilation in summer.

Depending on the design it might be cheaper to modify the greenhouse to use top vents in spring and full cross ventilation in summer.

With Sucrier/Pisang mas types he'd either have to use shade cloth or to shadow the greenhouse so that it'd get no more than 4 hours direct summer sun/ day.

If ambient outside air temperature gets over 100 for days at a time...well that's another ball game for Sucrier...

Even here in the tropics Sucrier/Pisang mas doesn't do well in open fields - whereas, Silk, Rajapuri, Orinoco and Cavendish do.

Sorry for the apologising. It's what I do best.


shannon


shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

Abnshrek
09-06-2013, 08:31 AM
Sounded like the winter heating plan was still amiss so I take that as it was a kit of some sort.. I think this person is better off w/o a greenhouse and just using a heat-tape and frost cloth, wrapped in 9mil plastic, planting in the ground a delicious variety of this persons choosing.. DB, and D. Nam would definitely make it thru winter using this technique. I'd say goldfinger too, but took my plastic off to early this year and frost bit it to the ground, but the pups have 8' stems.. so I say its all good. :^)

sunfish
09-06-2013, 09:45 AM
No, need for all that apologizing stuff.. I just wish we could give this person a solid choice.. I think location is going to kill the banana in the summer (in a green house unless it has ventilation and shade cloth.. Ever been in one when its a hundred? More like an oven.. I think over wintering may be done in the GH but this person has to plant it in the yard come spring, for growth in particular. Then repot it for Winter like Nph does.. If a height restriction comes into play angle it towards the southern sky.. like Greenfin.. I say get whatever kind, type of banana you want to grow Goldfinger, DB, D. Nam, FHIA03, etc.. since your going to be growing the plant over multiple years anyway. If you apply enough resources you can fruit in the 2nd yr (that being anytime after the 1st year is complete), and w/ luck collect some bounty... If I would've gotten my FHIA 03 in spring last year I might have had some bounty off it, but its going to flower before winter so timing is everything.. There's always a chance the following year w/ a monster pup.. :^)

Quote I have a courtyard that will be made into a greenhouse each winter

PR-Giants
09-06-2013, 10:06 AM
This might be too simplistic, but what I see are a collection of poor personal choices.

Using lack of education as a crutch might seem to be the answer to all the problems, but better

decision making will probably be much more rewarding.

Look at the countries with the "No Chiquita Law" and compare the average income of farmers.

Now having a country full of rich farmers isn't the solution.

Having a Gov that dictates prices or income isn't the solution either.

Leaving your welfare in the hands of huge banana companies, doesn't seem remotely possible as a solution.

The huge banana companies are providing services, collecting, packing, and distributing bananas takes

time and effort, which in turn entitles them to most of the profits.

Start with the Educational System that should improve the choices of people to entrust with your welfare.

Monoculture does not ecological diversity make.

Fusarium and sigatoka are pandemic.

Banana republics and accumulation of lands by large corporations away from indigenous peoples.

Health damage caused to workers by for example diazanon exposure in the pineapple industry and following chronic illness or chronic illness by environmental contamination.



PR-Giants,

Alas, I can't be that concise! After all, you asked a deep question.

1) Much of the troubling diseases that plague bananas are the result of massive monoclonal culture. A pathogen or a pest has a generation time that is usually orders of magnitude less than the banana.

Thus a monoclonal monocrop agroecology is a sitting duck for pathogen evolution. You can't sustainably breed your way out of the mess using vertical resistance strategies because the pathogen, in evolutionary terms, will ALWAYS outrun you.

Even with reproductively sterile cultivars like bananas, a polyclonal polyspecies crop system that includes rotational cycles will drastically reduce or negate most disease threats. Introducing multigene resistance into bananas by rapidly breeding multiple "versions" of a a varietal type, to albeit imprecise phenotype specifications, is a valuable adjunct strategy.

The problem, as I see it, is that crop scientists, business people & farmers are human; and almost never question their unspoken assumptions.

2) The business model that is touted in the (usually) precarious economies of banana-growing countries is the single variety export mode. So the proposition begets the pestilence. And the pestilence is also economic.

The idea is always: grow an export commodity crop; use foreign direct investment wherever possible (making the farmers even more beholden to unsustainable practices...); redress a pitiful Balance of Trade/forex situation; and let your technocrats learn from agricultural syllabuses created by folks who, for one or two centuries, have had far different needs from that of the people of the banana growing countries.

3) Lastly, once you have largely uneducated farmers in a poor country at the mercy of a single commodity (somewhat as the good people of T&T are at the mercy of oil and gas...); and when that commodity is as vulnerable at home and abroad as a single variety of dessert bananas; well... the cycle of unending poverty, chronic social distress and sociopolitical upheaval is instituted.

Good Sustainably Profitable Agriculture is critcal to the futures - and vulnerable fledgling democracies - of these countries. But who looks at that?



shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com





PR-Giants.

NO WE DON'T!! We're desperately courting foreign direct investment like any other economically vulnerable small country. Chiquita, ur WELCOME!!

Ok, good, I did my duty! I toed the line!!!!!!

But to be fair....Even Aerosmith LOVES Chiquita!!

Ooh, on the beach at cartegena
she, salty baby with the name-a
oh, chiquita
oh, love chiquita
she, takes to walkin' in the sunshine
she, she'll be lovin' till the moon shine
love chiquita
oh, love chiquita
she, got the poppy-eyed desire
tease, till the boys put out the fire
love chiquita
oh, love chiquita
oh no no, now don't you wake me up I'm dreaming
no no no, if you shake me I'll be screaming
love chiquita
oh love chiquita


Steven 4give me!
---------------------

shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

shannondicorse
09-06-2013, 07:48 PM
edited by shannon. 1) Using lack of education as a crutch might seem to be the answer to all the problems, but better decision making will probably be much more rewarding.

2) ...Now having a country full of rich farmers isn't the solution.

3) Having a Government that dictates prices or income isn't the solution either.

4) Leaving your welfare in the hands of huge banana companies, doesn't seem remotely possible as a solution.

The huge banana companies are providing services, collecting, packing, and distributing bananas takes time and effort, which in turn entitles them to most of the profits.

5) Start with the Educational System that should improve the choices of people to entrust with your welfare.

1) Lack of Education isn't a crutch or a naive apology; it's a diagnosis of a deep malaise that affects most chronically backward countries...

In a country filled with peasant farmers; what education normally does is provide socioeconomic mobility OUT OF FARMING.

2) Farmers don't get rich because of farming per se. Agriculture isn't intrinsically very lucrative. They get rich because they foment powerful lobbies that force governments into transfers from the profits of trade & industry.

Trade & Industry arise from a human resource base of education, technology and skilled capitalism.

So if a peasant or other farmer in a backward country has a consistent surplus; it is far more likely that she/he would move beyond primary production and into secondary or tertiary production; and provide a superior education to her/his children.

Trade & Industry devolves from a competent populace. Trade demands individuals or groups that can elucidate to themselves the regional differences in price & the logistics of movement of goods to fill these differentials at a profit. Industry demands all this and a population that contains a substantial number of technologically skilled and innovative people.

Thus "progress" works.

3) The massive and blatant disparities of wealth and income in backward societies are what drives revolutions and their charismatic dictatorial leaders.

The problem is, there is no way to bootstrap a nation out of this mess using Free Enterprise.

This is why most small backward nations would be socio-economic endgames were it not for concessions and frank handouts from the "successful" nations.

Fixing agriculture might be a start. But the situation is unfixable if the wrong agronomic techniques are consistently utilised; and if land tenure is medieval.

Unfortunately, only very stern leadership bordering on dictatorship seems to work in this case.

And most dictators do not know when, or are otherwise hesitant, to get off and let Free Enterprise have a go once they put the fundamentals in place. They proceed to centralise everything - because they think command can outperform the free market in efficiency.

4) The opposite occurs, when the "Free Enterprisers", look for Foreign Direct Investment from de facto monopolists. Inefficient control by command economy is swapped for inefficient control by cartel.


Understanding the story of bananas in the 20th Century & today might guided by those 4 ideas expressed above.


shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

G.W.
09-06-2013, 11:46 PM
Damn I lost a post that beat Shannon to his last post, only mine was 100 words or less.

Banana republic politics interest me not.
But,
coming from a poor agricultural area in the US qualifies me to speak on these matters.

Education
In what millennium do we expect government operated schools to produce students capable of forcing change in governments ?
The school I attended was merely grooming for shearing.

Last I returned home some time was spent looking up old schoolmates.
Some were incarcerated, some moved away, some on the family farm.

After talking to the farmers ( nothing has changed ) I was keen to hear from those who'd moved on.
The mantra was clear.

" I started school, right away it became obvious there was no job here for my training, I moved away."
Now after hearing this a few times over, plus considering the general fate of my former classmates, a incredibly novel theory occured to me.

What if , bear with me here, what if the smarter more motivated types continued to move away, and the less inventive just accept how things are types stayed to breed.
I theorize that some spark would be continually exported, and that those complacent enough to remain and breed were producing an ever declining intelligence level in that area.
How bout that ?
Declining IQ.

That would explain how the hills are covered with damn yokels.

MONEY.
more specifically poor people and money

My aunt grew up poor as you can get.
dirt floor
roadkill for dinner
one set of clothes
Intestinal parasites, etc.
Now she works 70-90 hour weeks and makes very reasonable pay.
After collecting her weekly booty she might go do a touch of shopping.
" I work hard ! I deserve it ! "

Now I also grew up poor and so my money gets saved.
Not her, oh nooooo.
She developed this sick relationship with money.

She hates being broke so works 70 hour weeks.
She hates FEELING broke so she buys herself something nice.
She buys such nice things that all the money is gone.
Once again broke, despite working hard.
Now associating the purchased objects with her brokenness, they are often thrown away in disgust.

She can only feel like she HAS money by spending it, which brings her back to NO money.
Lunacy.

Having money and handling it are different things.

Too many topics for one post.

D namwah !

PR-Giants
09-07-2013, 10:16 AM
1.) Monoculture does not ecological diversity make.


2.) Banana republics and accumulation of lands by large corporations away from indigenous peoples.

3.) Health damage caused to workers by for example diazanon exposure in the pineapple industry and following chronic illness or chronic illness by environmental contamination.


1.) Puerto Rico does not practice Monoculture and the Cav represents less than 20 % of plantings.

If you are concerned about these Mega-Banana Corps., don't be, they're usually not run by Yahoos.


2.) Indigenous people ? Like the Taino, Arawak, Garifuna, Caquetio, Ortoiroid, Ciboney, Coquivacoa, Guanajatabey, Igneri, Lucayan, Saladoid, and Raizal.

3.) I see, on almost a daily basis, people more than willing to risk health damage for short term gains in their backyard gardens.

Environmental contamination, it's a common practice among most homeowners.

It's very difficult to protect people from themselves. :ha::ha::ha:

PR-Giants
09-07-2013, 10:27 AM
100 words or less.



The more she writes, the more I see these 4 words.

WE ARE THE VICTIMS.

PR-Giants
09-07-2013, 11:15 AM
What I see are a collection of poor personal choices.

MOST OF THE TIME,

being poor is a personal choice

being educated is a personal choice

being taken advantage of, abused, or victimized, again a personal choice




This might be too simplistic, but what I see are a collection of poor personal choices.

Using lack of education as a crutch might seem to be the answer to all the problems, but better

decision making will probably be much more rewarding.

Look at the countries with the "No Chiquita Law" and compare the average income of farmers.

Now having a country full of rich farmers isn't the solution.

Having a Gov that dictates prices or income isn't the solution either.

Leaving your welfare in the hands of huge banana companies, doesn't seem remotely possible as a solution.

The huge banana companies are providing services, collecting, packing, and distributing bananas takes

time and effort, which in turn entitles them to most of the profits.

Start with the Educational System that should improve the choices of people to entrust with your welfare.

I also see the glass as being half full.

Possibly T&T has many small peasant farmers that are capable of producing a product at Point A.

That product may have a value of X at Point A, and 20 X at Point B.

An individual peasant farmer might not have the ability to fill a 40 foot Container,

but it would be easily achievable if they worked together to move their produce from

Point A to Point B, possibly utilizing a Non profit Coop.









1) Lack of Education isn't a crutch or a naive apology; it's a diagnosis of a deep malaise that affects most chronically backward countries...

In a country filled with peasant farmers; what education normally does is provide socioeconomic mobility OUT OF FARMING.

2) Farmers don't get rich because of farming per se. Agriculture isn't intrinsically very lucrative. They get rich because they foment powerful lobbies that force governments into transfers from the profits of trade & industry.

Trade & Industry arise from a human resource base of education, technology and skilled capitalism.

So if a peasant or other farmer in a backward country has a consistent surplus; it is far more likely that she/he would move beyond primary production and into secondary or tertiary production; and provide a superior education to her/his children.

Trade & Industry devolves from a competent populace. Trade demands individuals or groups that can elucidate to themselves the regional differences in price & the logistics of movement of goods to fill these differentials at a profit. Industry demands all this and a population that contains a substantial number of technologically skilled and innovative people.

Thus "progress" works.

3) The massive and blatant disparities of wealth and income in backward societies are what drives revolutions and their charismatic dictatorial leaders.

The problem is, there is no way to bootstrap a nation out of this mess using Free Enterprise.

This is why most small backward nations would be socio-economic endgames were it not for concessions and frank handouts from the "successful" nations.

Fixing agriculture might be a start. But the situation is unfixable if the wrong agronomic techniques are consistently utilised; and if land tenure is medieval.

Unfortunately, only very stern leadership bordering on dictatorship seems to work in this case.

And most dictators do not know when, or are otherwise hesitant, to get off and let Free Enterprise have a go once they put the fundamentals in place. They proceed to centralise everything - because they think command can outperform the free market in efficiency.

4) The opposite occurs, when the "Free Enterprisers", look for Foreign Direct Investment from de facto monopolists. Inefficient control by command economy is swapped for inefficient control by cartel.


Understanding the story of bananas in the 20th Century & today might guided by those 4 ideas expressed above.


shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

1) Lack of Education isn't a crutch or a naive apology; it's a diagnosis of a deep malaise that affects most chronically backward countries...

In a country filled with peasant farmers; what education normally does is provide socioeconomic mobility OUT OF FARMING.

2) Farmers don't get rich because of farming per se. Agriculture isn't intrinsically very lucrative. They get rich because they foment powerful lobbies that force governments into transfers from the profits of trade & industry.

Trade & Industry arise from a human resource base of education, technology and skilled capitalism.

So if a peasant or other farmer in a backward country has a consistent surplus; it is far more likely that she/he would move beyond primary production and into secondary or tertiary production; and provide a superior education to her/his children.

Trade & Industry devolves from a competent populace. Trade demands individuals or groups that can elucidate to themselves the regional differences in price & the logistics of movement of goods to fill these differentials at a profit. Industry demands all this and a population that contains a substantial number of technologically skilled and innovative people.

Thus "progress" works.

3) The massive and blatant disparities of wealth and income in backward societies are what drives revolutions and their charismatic dictatorial leaders.

The problem is, there is no way to bootstrap a nation out of this mess using Free Enterprise.

This is why most small backward nations would be socio-economic endgames were it not for concessions and frank handouts from the "successful" nations.

Fixing agriculture might be a start. But the situation is unfixable if the wrong agronomic techniques are consistently utilised; and if land tenure is medieval.

Unfortunately, only very stern leadership bordering on dictatorship seems to work in this case.

And most dictators do not know when, or are otherwise hesitant, to get off and let Free Enterprise have a go once they put the fundamentals in place. They proceed to centralise everything - because they think command can outperform the free market in efficiency.

4) The opposite occurs, when the "Free Enterprisers", look for Foreign Direct Investment from de facto monopolists. Inefficient control by command economy is swapped for inefficient control by cartel.


Understanding the story of bananas in the 20th Century & today might guided by those 4 ideas expressed above.


shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

1) Lack of Education isn't a crutch or a naive apology; it's a diagnosis of a deep malaise that affects most chronically backward countries...

In a country filled with peasant farmers; what education normally does is provide socioeconomic mobility OUT OF FARMING.

2) Farmers don't get rich because of farming per se. Agriculture isn't intrinsically very lucrative. They get rich because they foment powerful lobbies that force governments into transfers from the profits of trade & industry.

Trade & Industry arise from a human resource base of education, technology and skilled capitalism.

So if a peasant or other farmer in a backward country has a consistent surplus; it is far more likely that she/he would move beyond primary production and into secondary or tertiary production; and provide a superior education to her/his children.

Trade & Industry devolves from a competent populace. Trade demands individuals or groups that can elucidate to themselves the regional differences in price & the logistics of movement of goods to fill these differentials at a profit. Industry demands all this and a population that contains a substantial number of technologically skilled and innovative people.

Thus "progress" works.

3) The massive and blatant disparities of wealth and income in backward societies are what drives revolutions and their charismatic dictatorial leaders.

The problem is, there is no way to bootstrap a nation out of this mess using Free Enterprise.

This is why most small backward nations would be socio-economic endgames were it not for concessions and frank handouts from the "successful" nations.

Fixing agriculture might be a start. But the situation is unfixable if the wrong agronomic techniques are consistently utilised; and if land tenure is medieval.

Unfortunately, only very stern leadership bordering on dictatorship seems to work in this case.

And most dictators do not know when, or are otherwise hesitant, to get off and let Free Enterprise have a go once they put the fundamentals in place. They proceed to centralise everything - because they think command can outperform the free market in efficiency.

4) The opposite occurs, when the "Free Enterprisers", look for Foreign Direct Investment from de facto monopolists. Inefficient control by command economy is swapped for inefficient control by cartel.


Understanding the story of bananas in the 20th Century & today might guided by those 4 ideas expressed above.


shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

G.W.
09-07-2013, 06:01 PM
She is a he.

He wonders if you even read his post.

Since this entire thread has devolved into a red herring.......

Ignorant people are one thing, stupid is entirely another.
You can lead a horse to water and sometimes he'll **** in it.
Stupid farmers ? no freakin way !

Everything is a personal choice.
Let's do an experiment to prove it.
Just stop breathing.
Let me know how successful you are in enforcing your choice.

I don't need you to tell me about crop diversity either.
Heck we never monocropped.
Corn field next to soy next to alfalfa.
What monocropping ? rofl

Seriously.
This thread is beyond hijacked.
Shannon makes good points, albeit in a longwinded manor.
Kieth also makes good points and epic quotes.
No one reads or interprets my life examples.

People are notorious cor refusing to help themselves.
Poor people will remain poor regardless how much money they get hands on. MC Hammer ?
Ignorant people can be mitigated, against stupidity even the gods contend in vain.
Greed is real as the sun and exerts more social power.

robguz24
09-07-2013, 06:56 PM
Dwarf Cavendish. Good chance of getting fruit and the top of the leaves being under 9'. Other than that and SDC, there are few options.

G.W.
09-08-2013, 09:19 AM
Dc likes to choke and develop cigar end rot, also hates cold.

I have stopped growing them for these three reasons.

However, availability and pricing are as good or better than d namwah.


Claiming that almost everything is a personal choice may be factually accurate, however, executive function varies widely amongst individuals and all cannot be held to to the same standards.
Should not be held to the same standards.

Should an individual in their 60's with multiple degrees be considered equal to Tarzan when drafting contracts ?
A child ?

Nicolas Naranja
09-08-2013, 01:06 PM
The banana farms that I saw in Costa Rica were large monocultures. You would drive for miles and not see anything else. I would consider it even more of a monoculture than the sugarcane culture here in the 'glades because it lacked rotational crops and lacked genetic diversity. At least with sugarcane there are about 5 main varieties that are planted and about a dozen more on smaller acreages.

In contrast, what I saw in Puerto Rico was small farms with lots of different crops. Even in the south around Ponce you rarely saw more than 40 acres of any one particular crop. You'd see bananas in one field, calabaza in another, mangos, and papayas.

In Homestead, FL you see even greater diversity as the fields are smaller and since their is more pressure to make returns sooner you will see crops like Calabaza and Okra growing between the rows while papayas and bananas grow.

There is some power in being a large agribusiness versus a cooperative or a small farmer. Chiquita can sell their bananas in almost every country in the world. They have the marketing and logistics ability. If you have bananas they multi-nationals can move them as long as they meet standards

The only banana cooperative that comes close to the multinationals is Uniban/Turbana. They are big and they are very effective marketers of plantains, but when is the last time you saw a turbana banana. As a cooperative they try to offer value to their grower members which is what explains their diversity in offerings.

The small farmer really can't participate in the big boys game. There is a reason I don't try to produce the same product as Chiquita. They make a nice cavendish banana, I really can't compete with that. I produce the other stuff that doesn't really have a big enough market for chiquita to worry about. The niche markets are really where the small-farmers belong.

PR-Giants
09-08-2013, 07:36 PM
Destruction of TT’s banana market
Tuesday, May 7 2013

THE EDITOR: Gone are the days when every fruit vendor in Trinidad and Tobago had a variety of bananas. Over the last few years “sikyè”, “silk”, “gros michel”, and “lacatan” bananas are seldom seen in our market and local grocery.

Why does TT import thousands of tonnes of bananas annually when such a desired fruit can be grown locally?

In order to comprehend the fundamental modus operandi of the diminished local banana market we must journey a few decades back when the local banana market was sufficient and sustainable for the country. Data available from the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations show that between 1961 and 1983, the highest year of banana imports was 1978 importing 69 tonnes.

Through the late 1980’s into the 90’s banana imports dramatically spiked upwards to as high as 4,791 tonnes in 1988. This was due to a slump in oil prices, labour problems, failing agricultural policies coupled with fiscal austerity and economic policies imposed by the International Monetary Fund via the National Alliance for Reconstruction administration. A decrease in banana imports to 446 tonnes subsequently occurred in 1996.

By this time the international banana trade war was overheating between the United States and Europe because of the Lomè Convention. This trade agreement was between the EU at the time called the EEC (European Economic Community) and ACP (African, Caribbean, and Pacific) countries that were former colonies of Europe. ACP countries banana exports were given preferential privilege to enter the EEC.

The US government, lobbied by US based multinational companies who dominate the Latin America banana market filed a complaint against the EEC with the World Trade Organisation, claiming the agreement broke free trade rules. In 1997 the US won their petition which began the decline of the banana market in the Caribbean hitting the economy of Jamaica, the Windward Islands and others.

In 1997 TT imported 1,129 tonnes and exported 296 tonnes of banana.

For the year 2010, TT imported bananas were a staggering 12,032 tonnes and 45 tonnes was exported.

Local banana farmers have been undercut by cheap imported bananas into the country. This condition exists because the banana market is monopolised by a select few US based multinational companies who are accused of exploiting labour in Latin America and receiving preferential treatment from corrupt governments where they operate.

The banana market in this country will only produce adequate volumes to satisfy local demand when all parties involved make a conscientious decision for change. Additionally the consumer must regain their sense of economic patriotism to buy local and request local bananas when available.

Also all political parties must stand up against unjustifiable trade policies forced on us from international institutions and organisations that do not have the best interest of the country at heart.

Agricultural programmes must be structured to support farming and ensure a strong banana market locally. Farmers and the agriculture community must not give up on the growing of bananas and should not be disheartened by minor reversal in prices.

More emphasis must be spent in the education of youths in the field of agriculture to yield well-equipped farmers.

Local bananas are part of the country’s food heritage and should not be made extinct by cheap mass produced bananas.



JONATHAN MOHAN

Princes Town

PR-Giants
09-08-2013, 07:39 PM
Dominica and Bananas - an overview (http://www.dominica.nu/Bananas.html)

The Fairtrade Foundation | Fairtrade - Windward Islands Farmers' Association (WINFA), banana producer organisations (http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/producers/bananas/winfa_2/default.aspx)

PR-Giants
09-08-2013, 07:40 PM
Regina Joseph - Banana Farmer
Windward Islands Farmers' Association (WINFA)
Print this page

Regina Joseph, Banana Farmer, Dominica
Regina Joseph ©Karen Robinson Regina is from Dominica, one of the chain of islands in the Caribbean that make up the Windward Islands. Aged 43, she is the single parent of five children between 16 and 26 years of age and has eight grandchildren. Two of her daughters and their five school-age children live with her. Educational and employment opportunities are limited in her community but Regina’s 18-year-old daughter is studying history and herbal medicine at college and is optimistic that she will be able to get a scholarship to continue her education at university.

Regina is a member of the indigenous Carib people whose ancestors arrived by canoe from South America 1,000 years ago and now number 5,000 among the island’s 73,000 population. She lives in the Carib Territory in the east of Dominica, a 3,700-acre reserve owned by the Carib people. Regina is an active member of her community and of her local Fairtrade Group which she previously served as treasurer and representative to the National Fairtrade Committee.

Regina is skilled in the traditional Carib handicraft of basket weaving which supplements her income. She has passed her skills on to her two daughters who work as self-employed artisans, selling their baskets to tourists from Carib handicrafts shops.

Regina’s 2.5 acre (I hectare) farm is a ten-minute walk from her home. She grows a variety of crops planted between her banana trees for family consumption and for sale to local and regional markets. Hot peppers are sold to two large spice companies, traders buy her yams and tania, another root crop, and cabbages and lettuces are sold locally.

Following Fairtrade certification in 2000, Fairtrade Group members have been encouraged to plant a variety of trees in buffer zones on the edges of their fields to help protect their banana trees during the hurricane season. Regina has planted a selection of fruit trees including grapefruit, oranges, coconut palms and carambula, as well as several native tree species which command a good price for their timber. Regina has never used chemicals on her farm because she believes they are a health hazard and are contrary to the Carib tradition of respecting the natural environment. The grass in the buffer zones is regularly mowed and the cuttings added to Regina’s compost heap of decomposed foliage and rejected bananas. This organic fertilizer is used to supplement NPK1 applications and enrich the soil around the plants in her banana fields.

Bananas are by far the most important crop for Regina and provide 70% of her cash income. But growing them has become an increasingly precarious occupation in recent years and their unpredictable future will be decided by events beyond her control.

In the last 15 years the Windward Islands’ share of the UK banana market has shrunk from 60% to less than 20% as a result of falling retail prices and increased competition from lower-cost, less environmentally friendly Latin American producers. The disastrous consequences for Dominica include a fall in annual revenues from US$32m to US$5.3m and a decline in the number of growers from 11,000 to just 700 in 2003. And new EU regulations due at the end of 2005 could sound the death knell of the Caribbean banana industry.

For more than 30 years, the EU has given preferential market access to banana imports from former colonies in Africa, the Caribbean and the Pacific region (APC) through a system of quotas and tariffs. Following successful US-backed complaints at the WTO that this system discriminated against Latin American producers, the EU agreed in 2001 to abolish quotas and adopt a single tariff system by 1 January 2006.

While ACP producers will initially be exempt from the tariff, Caribbean producers are deeply concerned that the proposed rate of €230 a tonne is too low to make up for the price difference between Caribbean bananas and the cheaper ‘dollar bananas' from Latin American plantations which would then swamp European markets. Campaigners are hopeful that the International Banana Conference in April 2005 will secure a commitment to an EU import regime which promotes sustainable production and enables small-scale banana farmers to continue to participate in world trade2.

The one ray of hope for Dominican banana growers has been the six-fold growth in exports of Fairtrade bananas since their inception there in 2000. They now account for 71% of the island’s production and have encouraged at least 300 farmers back to the industry. Regina produces 35 boxes of bananas every two weeks for export to the UK. For the first few years, Regina and the other Fairtrade certified banana growers only sold a part of their crop to Fairtrade buyers. But thanks to the growing demand from British consumers, they now sell their entire crop on Fairtrade terms: ‘The advantage I see in Fairtrade is that I don’t have to use chemicals, which is good for my health, and a healthy environment. It helps to pay the bills and send my children to school; I am getting more for my bananas now.’

As well as a higher price, farmers’ groups receive a premium3 to invest in business and community improvements. The premium committee, elected by farmers, has used the extra money to purchase four computers, a photocopier and furniture for local schools; a community centre has been built and street lighting installed for the first time in Castle Bruce; bush cutters have been bought to replace chemical weed control; an office has been built for regular Fairtrade Group meetings; and the purchase of a lawn mower means youngsters can now take part in football, cricket and rounders leagues on a once-overgrown sports ground.
Regina harvests her bananas every two weeks with the help of two employees. The bananas are cut, washed, sorted, bagged and labelled in the packhouse on her farm, ready for export. This operation has to be carried out to EurepGap standards4 now demanded by leading European retailers. Members of the Carib Territory Fairtrade Group received financial help from the premium fund to help with improvements needed to gain EurepGap certification. Regina has upgraded her packhouse with a clean water washing system, installed hand washing facilities, bought protective clothing and built a pit toilet flushed by rainwater collected in a tub.

The premium has also been used to repair or improve farm access roads, making life easier for all local farmers. Collection lorries can now drive right up to Regina’s packhouse on harvest days so she no longer has to carry her bananas on her head for half a mile to the main road or make the same journey to collect water for her packing operation from the roadside standpipe.
The government is constructing a new small hospital for the area, made possible by local community organisations agreeing to part-fund the project. The Fairtrade Group originally pledged EC$5,000; then in February 2005 they reviewed it in the light of increased premiums earned from Fairtrade sales and took the decision to double their contribution to EC$10,000.

Their ambitious plans for the future include building a resource centre where youngsters can receive computer training and learn trades like plumbing, carpentry, mechanics, home economics and sewing to improve their employment prospects.

Regina is one of the suppliers of the first Fairtrade coconuts from the Windwards which were launched in Sainsbury’s at the end of 2004. She supplies around 100 coconuts a week for EC$0.38 each, compared to EC$0.15 on the local market. Simeon Greene is Relationship Director of Windwards Bananas, the company which markets Windwards bananas in the UK. He says, “Now we are successfully bringing coconuts over, we can go ahead with Fairtrade mangoes and maybe in the future we will have a whole cluster of Fairtrade produce in the UK market.”

Windward Islands Fairtrade bananas are available at Asda, the Co-op, Sainsbury’s, Somerfield, Tesco and Waitrose, and Fairtrade coconuts at Sainsbury’s.

G.W.
09-08-2013, 07:55 PM
In 2010 TT exported 45 tons of bananas.

What why who ?

PR-Giants
09-08-2013, 08:36 PM
What a Joke...

The locals should be getting a oil royalty check so they can buy Hot Tubs like the Alaskans do.


Local News | Alaska residents will get annual oil royalty dividend of $1,654 each | Seattle Times Newspaper (http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2003892787_webalaskaoil19.html)


$3000.00 each in 2008
Alaska's oil windfall - Feb. 29, 2012 (http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/29/markets/alaska_oil/index.htm)



Back to T&T


Are we getting value from our oil and gas industry?
By Analysis by the Energy Chamber
Story Created: Sep 7, 2013 at 8:41 PM ECT
Story Updated: Sep 7, 2013 at 9:47 PM ECT
As Finance Minister Larry Howai prepares to deliver Trinidad and Tobago’s largest national budget in Parliament tomorrow, the Energy Chamber—South Trinidad’s most powerful business group—is asking Government to consider that international comparisons of oil and tax regimes suggest the country’s oil and gas sector operates within a high tax environment while the rest of the economy has a relatively low tax burden.
The Energy Chamber says it is convinced that Government revenue from the oil and gas sector is fairly set and fairly collected.
“If we wish to continue to receive this revenue we have to ensure that our oil and gas production is maintained or increased and this requires continued investment every year,” it says.
Following is the Energy Chamber’s full statement exclusively to the Sunday Express:

One of the key questions on the public’s mind during discussions about the national budget is whether or not the country receives value for money from its oil and gas resources. It is well known that oil and gas taxation is the major contributor to overall Government revenue. In last year’s budget, the taxes collected from oil and gas companies tax was projected to contribute close to $16 billion to the Treasury in the 2013 fiscal year with other non-tax revenue from the sector (such as royalties, licence fees and profits from production sharing contracts) contributing another $3 billion.
This does not include the significant corporation tax paid by Point Lisas-based companies and Atlantic. Recent statements from the Minister of Finance suggest that the country may have received more than what was budgeted from oil and gas.
While the overall revenue figures are impressive, a key question for the public is, “Does the Government collect a fair portion of the overall revenue generated by the industry?”
International comparisons of oil and tax regimes strongly suggest that Trinidad & Tobago’s oil and gas sector operates within a high tax environment while the rest of the economy has a relatively low tax burden.
Wood McKenzie, the most renowned international experts on oil and gas taxation conduct an annual international ranking exercise of how attractive fiscal regimes are to companies. The Wood McKenzie 2011 fiscal terms report showed that T&T performed poorly as it relates to the competitiveness of its tax regime, with a rank of 99 out of 103 jurisdictions. In fact, we were only able to outperform Bolivia, Algeria, Venezuela and Russia.
The next question in a skeptical member of the public’s mind is probably, “Ok, so the official taxation rate is high, but is the Government efficient in collecting all that is due to the citizens?”
Oil and gas companies have many levels of control to ensure all revenues due to the Government are paid, ranging from internal company procedures to international stock exchange regulation. Companies listed on major stock exchanges are also governed by the laws of the respective country where the company’s stock is traded, which also requires full compliance of the laws of the land in the countries where they operate.
One of the key duties of external auditors who audit oil and gas company accounts is to ensure that the company has complied with the respective tax laws of the country, and that these are accurately reflected in the financial statements.
But of course it is not just company procedures and audit processes that check that all taxes are paid; the Board of Inland Revenue (BIR) and the Ministry of Energy both conduct detailed and thorough annual audits of oil and gas company’s books to ensure all that is legitimately owed is indeed paid. The BIR has created a Petroleum and Large Tax Payers Business Unit whose role it is to undertake this work. It is resourced with extremely competent officials who take their role in securing what is legitimately owed to the Government very seriously.
Oil and gas companies are aware that their businesses rely upon extracting resources that ultimately belong to the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago. They are therefore comfortable with the idea that they need to be transparent with the citizens about how much tax they pay. For this reason oil and gas companies have been strong supporters of the Trinidad & Tobago Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative (T&T EITI), playing an active role in the Multi-stakeholder Steering Committee and providing full data to the administrator hired to reconcile Government and company accounts and produce a report on oil and gas taxation. The Energy Chamber, who is also represented on the TTEITI Steering Committee, hopes that this report on oil and taxation will be published within the next few weeks and will go a long way to increasing public knowledge and trust about oil and gas taxation.
The Energy Chamber is convinced that Government revenue from the oil and gas sector is fairly set and fairly collected. If we wish to continue to receive this revenue we have to ensure that our oil and gas production is maintained or increased and this requires continued investment every year. On occasions that will mean introducing specific incentives to encourage investment in a particular type of infrastructure or particular type of oil and gas reservoir. A failure to provide a competitive taxation regime will result in capital being invested in other more competitive countries.Continuous reforms are therefore critical to sustaining the sector. Reforming tax regulation is a necessary process in all oil and gas provinces and involves continued and detailed dialogue between the Government and the industry. The Energy Chamber has in its experience found that the Government officials with whom we interact are very competent and very clear about what they expect and we can usually find common ground.

G.W.
09-08-2013, 09:52 PM
too much hijack

Why did TT export 45 tons of bananas ?

are those fairtrade deals or something else ?

PR-Giants
09-08-2013, 10:33 PM
too much hijack

Why did TT export 45 tons of bananas ?

are those fairtrade deals or something else ?

I never say Hi Jack to my dog, I always say Hola Jack.

45 tonnes is nothing, +/- $4000

With all the oil money, it's cheaper to import bananas than to grow them.

Peasant farmer is probably just a typo, and they're really Pheasant farmers and

shooting Pheasants is probably a recreational sport they do at the Country Club.

shannondicorse
09-09-2013, 06:55 AM
Destruction of TT’s banana market
Tuesday, May 7 2013

THE EDITOR: Gone are the days when every fruit vendor in Trinidad and Tobago had a variety of bananas. Over the last few years “sikyè”, “silk”, “gros michel”, and “lacatan” bananas are seldom seen in our market and local grocery.

Why does TT import thousands of tonnes of bananas annually when such a desired fruit can be grown locally?

In order to comprehend the fundamental modus operandi of the diminished local banana market we must journey a few decades back when the local banana market was sufficient and sustainable for the country. Data available from the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations show that between 1961 and 1983, the highest year of banana imports was 1978 importing 69 tonnes.

Through the late 1980’s into the 90’s banana imports dramatically spiked upwards to as high as 4,791 tonnes in 1988. This was due to a slump in oil prices, labour problems, failing agricultural policies coupled with fiscal austerity and economic policies imposed by the International Monetary Fund via the National Alliance for Reconstruction administration. A decrease in banana imports to 446 tonnes subsequently occurred in 1996.

By this time the international banana trade war was overheating between the United States and Europe because of the Lomè Convention. This trade agreement was between the EU at the time called the EEC (European Economic Community) and ACP (African, Caribbean, and Pacific) countries that were former colonies of Europe. ACP countries banana exports were given preferential privilege to enter the EEC.

The US government, lobbied by US based multinational companies who dominate the Latin America banana market filed a complaint against the EEC with the World Trade Organisation, claiming the agreement broke free trade rules. In 1997 the US won their petition which began the decline of the banana market in the Caribbean hitting the economy of Jamaica, the Windward Islands and others.

In 1997 TT imported 1,129 tonnes and exported 296 tonnes of banana.

For the year 2010, TT imported bananas were a staggering 12,032 tonnes and 45 tonnes was exported.

Local banana farmers have been undercut by cheap imported bananas into the country. This condition exists because the banana market is monopolised by a select few US based multinational companies who are accused of exploiting labour in Latin America and receiving preferential treatment from corrupt governments where they operate.

The banana market in this country will only produce adequate volumes to satisfy local demand when all parties involved make a conscientious decision for change. Additionally the consumer must regain their sense of economic patriotism to buy local and request local bananas when available.

Also all political parties must stand up against unjustifiable trade policies forced on us from international institutions and organisations that do not have the best interest of the country at heart.

Agricultural programmes must be structured to support farming and ensure a strong banana market locally. Farmers and the agriculture community must not give up on the growing of bananas and should not be disheartened by minor reversal in prices.

More emphasis must be spent in the education of youths in the field of agriculture to yield well-equipped farmers.

Local bananas are part of the country’s food heritage and should not be made extinct by cheap mass produced bananas.



JONATHAN MOHAN

Princes Town

PR-Giants,

I'm excruciatingly aware of the situation here on T&T... in somewhat more detail than Mr Mohan. The problems include irrevocable distortion of the labour market by the succession of governments of the day... paying wages for zero productive work to bring down unemployment to under 5%.

Additionally, the opportunity costs of primary production of agricultural commodities are prohibitive.

Hence my strategy of producing some commodities at marginal cost to high-value branded products generated on-farm or on farmers' cooperatives. Dessert bananas and Plantains are such commodities.

That's why I'm breeding low labour bananas sporting "horizontal" disease resistance; for polyclonal polyspecies agriculture.

The "solutions" touted by the banana agronomists and policy people are not sustainable and in the long run will lead to production/market failure.



shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

shannondicorse
09-09-2013, 07:29 AM
What a Joke...

The locals should be getting a oil royalty check so they can buy Hot Tubs like the Alaskans do.


Local News | Alaska residents will get annual oil royalty dividend of $1,654 each | Seattle Times Newspaper (http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2003892787_webalaskaoil19.html)


$3000.00 each in 2008
Alaska's oil windfall - Feb. 29, 2012 (http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/29/markets/alaska_oil/index.htm)



Back to T&T


Are we getting value from our oil and gas industry?
By Analysis by the Energy Chamber
Story Created: Sep 7, 2013 at 8:41 PM ECT
Story Updated: Sep 7, 2013 at 9:47 PM ECT
As Finance Minister Larry Howai prepares to deliver Trinidad and Tobago’s largest national budget in Parliament tomorrow, the Energy Chamber—South Trinidad’s most powerful business group—is asking Government to consider that international comparisons of oil and tax regimes suggest the country’s oil and gas sector operates within a high tax environment while the rest of the economy has a relatively low tax burden.
The Energy Chamber says it is convinced that Government revenue from the oil and gas sector is fairly set and fairly collected.
“If we wish to continue to receive this revenue we have to ensure that our oil and gas production is maintained or increased and this requires continued investment every year,” it says.
Following is the Energy Chamber’s full statement exclusively to the Sunday Express:

One of the key questions on the public’s mind during discussions about the national budget is whether or not the country receives value for money from its oil and gas resources. It is well known that oil and gas taxation is the major contributor to overall Government revenue. In last year’s budget, the taxes collected from oil and gas companies tax was projected to contribute close to $16 billion to the Treasury in the 2013 fiscal year with other non-tax revenue from the sector (such as royalties, licence fees and profits from production sharing contracts) contributing another $3 billion.
This does not include the significant corporation tax paid by Point Lisas-based companies and Atlantic. Recent statements from the Minister of Finance suggest that the country may have received more than what was budgeted from oil and gas.
While the overall revenue figures are impressive, a key question for the public is, “Does the Government collect a fair portion of the overall revenue generated by the industry?”
International comparisons of oil and tax regimes strongly suggest that Trinidad & Tobago’s oil and gas sector operates within a high tax environment while the rest of the economy has a relatively low tax burden.
Wood McKenzie, the most renowned international experts on oil and gas taxation conduct an annual international ranking exercise of how attractive fiscal regimes are to companies. The Wood McKenzie 2011 fiscal terms report showed that T&T performed poorly as it relates to the competitiveness of its tax regime, with a rank of 99 out of 103 jurisdictions. In fact, we were only able to outperform Bolivia, Algeria, Venezuela and Russia.
The next question in a skeptical member of the public’s mind is probably, “Ok, so the official taxation rate is high, but is the Government efficient in collecting all that is due to the citizens?”
Oil and gas companies have many levels of control to ensure all revenues due to the Government are paid, ranging from internal company procedures to international stock exchange regulation. Companies listed on major stock exchanges are also governed by the laws of the respective country where the company’s stock is traded, which also requires full compliance of the laws of the land in the countries where they operate.
One of the key duties of external auditors who audit oil and gas company accounts is to ensure that the company has complied with the respective tax laws of the country, and that these are accurately reflected in the financial statements.
But of course it is not just company procedures and audit processes that check that all taxes are paid; the Board of Inland Revenue (BIR) and the Ministry of Energy both conduct detailed and thorough annual audits of oil and gas company’s books to ensure all that is legitimately owed is indeed paid. The BIR has created a Petroleum and Large Tax Payers Business Unit whose role it is to undertake this work. It is resourced with extremely competent officials who take their role in securing what is legitimately owed to the Government very seriously.
Oil and gas companies are aware that their businesses rely upon extracting resources that ultimately belong to the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago. They are therefore comfortable with the idea that they need to be transparent with the citizens about how much tax they pay. For this reason oil and gas companies have been strong supporters of the Trinidad & Tobago Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative (T&T EITI), playing an active role in the Multi-stakeholder Steering Committee and providing full data to the administrator hired to reconcile Government and company accounts and produce a report on oil and gas taxation. The Energy Chamber, who is also represented on the TTEITI Steering Committee, hopes that this report on oil and taxation will be published within the next few weeks and will go a long way to increasing public knowledge and trust about oil and gas taxation.
The Energy Chamber is convinced that Government revenue from the oil and gas sector is fairly set and fairly collected. If we wish to continue to receive this revenue we have to ensure that our oil and gas production is maintained or increased and this requires continued investment every year. On occasions that will mean introducing specific incentives to encourage investment in a particular type of infrastructure or particular type of oil and gas reservoir. A failure to provide a competitive taxation regime will result in capital being invested in other more competitive countries.Continuous reforms are therefore critical to sustaining the sector. Reforming tax regulation is a necessary process in all oil and gas provinces and involves continued and detailed dialogue between the Government and the industry. The Energy Chamber has in its experience found that the Government officials with whom we interact are very competent and very clear about what they expect and we can usually find common ground.

PR-Giants,

[I do understand your sincere concern for a fellow Caribbean island-state.

But underneath the glitz, T&T is a near basket case. In half a century of "Independence", it has failed to diversify its economy out of oil (and now gas). So generations have grown up under a "resource curse".

Local Net Independent Productivity exclusive of energy commodities (i.e., productivity of goods and services that can be marketed competitively out there in the world...) is... you guessed it: NON-EXISTENT.

It will take at least one human generation to re-institute this.

In real terms, GDP is declining; and in the short run, little can be done to change this except to get higher prices for energy commodities.

This(pricing) is not directly in Trinidad's control; and a lot depends on the state of the world's regional supply distribution of tight gas & oil. The skills, technology and investment capability in 21st energy marketing are beyond the government & citizens of Trinidad. Hence reliance on foreign oil/gas consortia.

The government folks keep talking about "increasing proven reserves of oil and gas - as if this is a manufacturing operation. But the truth is, to get more gas you have to go deeper and deeper into the continental slope; and the takers for such propositions are few.

I'm trying to do an analysis of this these days.
=================

I understand G.W's cry of "hijack".. but this directly impacts on Trinidad's production of agricultural commodities and thus bananas.

A farmer can't competitively grow bananas under a macroeconomic regime like this.

I have general agro-economic integrated solutions that I have propounded on other fora. But the lack of talent and the diversion caused by the current crisis and the short-run "solution" (FIND MORE GAS!) preclude these ideas being considered by government policy-makers; planners; and managers.


So... I just do what I can do...on my own.


shannon


shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

jcbrownacu
09-09-2013, 04:30 PM
I haven't understood nothing ya'll have been discussing, but I'm glad I helped get something started!

For the people out there that need to know, the idea is to enclose my courtyard just during the winter months then to dismantle spring through fall. I have a picture, but can't figure out how to upload. My house is U shaped and inside of the U I have planting areas that run along the wall. It's going to be tropical themed. I want to create a PVC or wooden frame greenhouse using rolls of plastic.

Let the highjacking begin!

sunfish
09-09-2013, 05:07 PM
I haven't understood nothing ya'll have been discussing, but I'm glad I helped get something started!

For the people out there that need to know, the idea is to enclose my courtyard just during the winter months then to dismantle spring through fall. I have a picture, but can't figure out how to upload. My house is U shaped and inside of the U I have planting areas that run along the wall. It's going to be tropical themed. I want to create a PVC or wooden frame greenhouse using rolls of plastic.

Let the highjacking begin!

For now why not get a dwarf orinoco and see how it does for you over winter.

Nicolas Naranja
09-09-2013, 07:37 PM
Shannon,

What are the issues with the FHIA varieties that keep them from being used in Trinidad. I have had positive results with FHIA-1 and FHIA-17 in regards to productivity and disease resistance. I applaud the breeding efforts, but I wonder how much variety improvement will help.

shannondicorse
09-10-2013, 07:27 AM
Shannon,

What are the issues with the FHIA varieties that keep them from being used in Trinidad. I have had positive results with FHIA-1 and FHIA-17 in regards to productivity and disease resistance. I applaud the breeding efforts, but I wonder how much variety improvement will help.

Nicolas,

I applaud FHIA's breeding efforts. I am a great fan!

There is a bit of difficulty with me directly importing FHIA vars into Trinidad - there are low level policy issues, where I am concerned - especially concerning AAABs.

That being said; I'd not mind getting my hands on some of FHIA's synthetic diploids and tetraploids.

To understand you have to know the breeding goals of the three independent new breeders on Trinidad (myself included).

1) They're seeking to produce, within any general fruit phenotype, say a Cavendish/Gros Michel-like dessert type for argument's sake, about twenty to forty genetically widely distinct clones for polyclonal culture.

2) They're looking mostly at very tall plants.

3) They're looking at indefinite ratooning.

4) They're looking at growing bananas within low external input, close-canopy multispecies agroforestry systems.

5) They're looking at multi-use bananas and non-fruit plant parts for value added processing.

6) They're looking at clay soils with impeded internal drainage and occasional waterlogging.

In addition the genepool would constitute, in farmers' fields, a cheap living gene repository for further spawning of diploid and triploid parthenocarpic cultivars - in a planned and/or purely fortuitous manner.

No-one else in the world breeds to these parameters. ABSOLUTELY No-one.

So, while some of FHIA's, IITA's, CARBAP's, EMBRAPA's and NRCB's developed varieties would definitely be useful additions; they won't be comprehensive answers to the larger research & development paradigm.


shannon


shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

jcbrownacu
09-10-2013, 03:05 PM
where is a good location to get a dwarf red or dwarf orinoco? any place sell decent sized pups?

bananimal
09-10-2013, 03:26 PM
where is a good location to get a dwarf red or dwarf orinoco? any place sell decent sized pups?

Where are you? Good to up date your profile with USDA zone and town, state.

sunfish
09-10-2013, 04:40 PM
Quote

Im in Dallas

jcbrownacu
09-10-2013, 04:50 PM
thanks, updated my info. im in dallas zone 8

PR-Giants
09-11-2013, 08:24 AM
T&T and PR are two of the richest countries in the Caribbean, T&T is from oil & gas, while PR is from the "spoils of war". We grow a very small percentage of our food, it is simply cheaper to import it from low income countries.

We have a closed banana market, but from what I read on the Org, imported Cavendish taste very bad and I'm surprised a tropical country would import 12,032 tonnes of bad tasting bananas in 2010 just because they're cheaper.

It should be profitable for a local farmer to produce bananas at half the cost of imported fruit, because most of the cost is in shipping.

Our prices are less than half of the value of a CIF naner in the States, so it can easily be done even with unfair labor practices.

The problem in rich countries is not the banana, it is the labor involved. It might be difficult to compete in the export trade, but not in the local market.








Destruction of TT’s banana market
Tuesday, May 7 2013

THE EDITOR: Gone are the days when every fruit vendor in Trinidad and Tobago had a variety of bananas. Over the last few years “sikyè”, “silk”, “gros michel”, and “lacatan” bananas are seldom seen in our market and local grocery.

Why does TT import thousands of tonnes of bananas annually when such a desired fruit can be grown locally?

In order to comprehend the fundamental modus operandi of the diminished local banana market we must journey a few decades back when the local banana market was sufficient and sustainable for the country. Data available from the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations show that between 1961 and 1983, the highest year of banana imports was 1978 importing 69 tonnes.

Through the late 1980’s into the 90’s banana imports dramatically spiked upwards to as high as 4,791 tonnes in 1988. This was due to a slump in oil prices, labour problems, failing agricultural policies coupled with fiscal austerity and economic policies imposed by the International Monetary Fund via the National Alliance for Reconstruction administration. A decrease in banana imports to 446 tonnes subsequently occurred in 1996.

By this time the international banana trade war was overheating between the United States and Europe because of the Lomè Convention. This trade agreement was between the EU at the time called the EEC (European Economic Community) and ACP (African, Caribbean, and Pacific) countries that were former colonies of Europe. ACP countries banana exports were given preferential privilege to enter the EEC.

The US government, lobbied by US based multinational companies who dominate the Latin America banana market filed a complaint against the EEC with the World Trade Organisation, claiming the agreement broke free trade rules. In 1997 the US won their petition which began the decline of the banana market in the Caribbean hitting the economy of Jamaica, the Windward Islands and others.

In 1997 TT imported 1,129 tonnes and exported 296 tonnes of banana.

For the year 2010, TT imported bananas were a staggering 12,032 tonnes and 45 tonnes was exported.

Local banana farmers have been undercut by cheap imported bananas into the country. This condition exists because the banana market is monopolised by a select few US based multinational companies who are accused of exploiting labour in Latin America and receiving preferential treatment from corrupt governments where they operate.

The banana market in this country will only produce adequate volumes to satisfy local demand when all parties involved make a conscientious decision for change. Additionally the consumer must regain their sense of economic patriotism to buy local and request local bananas when available.

Also all political parties must stand up against unjustifiable trade policies forced on us from international institutions and organisations that do not have the best interest of the country at heart.

Agricultural programmes must be structured to support farming and ensure a strong banana market locally. Farmers and the agriculture community must not give up on the growing of bananas and should not be disheartened by minor reversal in prices.

More emphasis must be spent in the education of youths in the field of agriculture to yield well-equipped farmers.

Local bananas are part of the country’s food heritage and should not be made extinct by cheap mass produced bananas.



JONATHAN MOHAN

Princes Town






PR-Giants,

I'm excruciatingly aware of the situation here on T&T... in somewhat more detail than Mr Mohan. The problems include irrevocable distortion of the labour market by the succession of governments of the day... paying wages for zero productive work to bring down unemployment to under 5%.

Additionally, the opportunity costs of primary production of agricultural commodities are prohibitive.

Hence my strategy of producing some commodities at marginal cost to high-value branded products generated on-farm or on farmers' cooperatives. Dessert bananas and Plantains are such commodities.

That's why I'm breeding low labour bananas sporting "horizontal" disease resistance; for polyclonal polyspecies agriculture.

The "solutions" touted by the banana agronomists and policy people are not sustainable and in the long run will lead to production/market failure.



shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

PR-Giants
09-11-2013, 08:30 AM
I need help. I've been reading through these forums so much, but I'm even more confused. I have a courtyard that will be made into a greenhouse each winter so temp should never get below freezing (hoping for more like 50, but time will tell). I have about 8-9' to the roof so that will be my height requirement, but I really want something that tastes absolutely delicious. Im in Dallas so it has to take some 105 days during the summer. Wind will be low.

So to summarize:
Max 9'
Temp not below freezing
Low wind
Amazing flavor

Thanks so much and happy nanners!
Josh

Try a Cali Gold, it's the same height as a Dwarf Orinoco but can handle short term temps below freezing.

shannondicorse
09-11-2013, 07:32 PM
T&T and PR are two of the richest countries in the Caribbean, T&T is from oil & gas, while PR is from the "spoils of war". We grow a very small percentage of our food, it is simply cheaper to import it from low income countries.

We have a closed banana market, but from what I read on the Org, imported Cavendish taste very bad and I'm surprised a tropical country would import 12,032 tonnes of bad tasting bananas in 2010 just because they're cheaper.

It should be profitable for a local farmer to produce bananas at half the cost of imported fruit, because most of the cost is in shipping.

Our prices are less than half of the value of a CIF naner in the States, so it can easily be done even with unfair labor practices.

The problem in rich countries is not the banana, it is the labor involved. It might be difficult to compete in the export trade, but not in the local market.


PR-Giants,

Firstly, I'm going to apologise to all at bananas.org for carrying on a discussion of a matter quite unrelated to the original posting.

It is quite an important one though.

1) Trinidad & Tobago is a small twin-island with a population density of nearly 300/sq. km. Unlike Puerto Rico, it lacks a substantial emigration outlet.

Oh, it can try to control birthrate; but if you bring down your birthrate suddenly - your population ages and you're faced with a massive social services debt to an elderly population. It's a catch-22.

2) T&T is resourced cursed. The governments of the day win the favour of the voters by massive transfers and subsides to them from energy revenues. This cripples labour by making it uncompetitively expensive and, in absolute terms, very unproductive.

This in itself is a huge deterrent to quality Foreign Direct Investment into diversified economic activity and development. Most FDI on T&T is rapacious and not at all sustainably developmental.

The money that has flooded T&T in the years 1973-2013 has distorted not only labour but land markets. As a result; all the 1st class privately owned arable land has been built on. The average available arable land is Class4; 5 & 6 - and prices here can begin at just under USD 2,000/ acre. This is undeveloped class 4; 5 & 6 land mind you!!

The returns on commodity agriculture on those lands make investment unwise- or, in my view - downright foolhardy.

When last I checked, I think Trinidad imports virtually 100% of its Cavendish dessert bananas from Suriname (daily wage ~USD $4.00?) & the Dominican Republic (daily wage ~USD 5.00). Bananas from thence retail on Trinidad at about USD .80 to 1.00/ lb. They are superior to Cavendish produced on Trinidad; and are excellent business for the importer.

Daily field worker wages on Trinidad (often about USD 20.00!!) exceed the statutory daily minimum - simply because a worker can get a government paid make-work job where s/he does close to nothing for more than $10 per day.

For decades, the government and its corporations have been the largest employers on T&T; paying out the energy largesse as insurance against social instability! The actual value of that production measured in terms of trade is beyond minuscule.

So truth be told, we can't even begin to produce Cavendish dessert bananas locally to compete with that tasty USD 1.00/lb material coming from Suriname & the DR.

Backward countries are backward for reasons. They just don't happen. Etiologies exist; can be traced; and sometimes - only sometimes - a civil and non-traumatic fix can be devised.

This is what I'm trying to address with bananas in my own piddling way.

Some Americans may think these matters are irrelevant; but they are not. Oftentimes when these small nations go rotten, they create uncertainty & compromise hemispheric security. Big - sometimes costly -headaches for the USA in its own neighbourhood!


shannon


shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

Kat2
09-11-2013, 08:59 PM
Some Americans may think these matters are irrelevant; but they are not. Oftentimes when these small nations go rotten, they create uncertainty & compromise hemispheric security. Big - sometimes costly -headaches for the USA in its own neighbourhood!
This American does not consider these matters irrelevant.

PR-Giants
09-11-2013, 10:05 PM
I find your Islands agro economy very interesting and would enjoy participating
in a separate thread about T&T / Caribbean if one had existed.
I don't think many Americans understand how these US companies operate,
Europeans seem to easily grasp the situation.

At $0.80 to $1.00 per lb retail, it sure seems as though there's a lot of meat on the bone.
It would be helpful to know the CIF price of these imported bananas, but if a farmer can
get $0.20 per lb they would be fine with about $500 USD per week per acre.

Thanks for all the info you've added.

This seems like a very good place to get your message out.




PR-Giants,

Firstly, I'm going to apologise to all at bananas.org for carrying on a discussion of a matter quite unrelated to the original posting.

It is quite an important one though.

1) Trinidad & Tobago is a small twin-island with a population density of nearly 300/sq. km. Unlike Puerto Rico, it lacks a substantial emigration outlet.

Oh, it can try to control birthrate; but if you bring down your birthrate suddenly - your population ages and you're faced with a massive social services debt to an elderly population. It's a catch-22.

2) T&T is resourced cursed. The governments of the day win the favour of the voters by massive transfers and subsides to them from energy revenues. This cripples labour by making it uncompetitively expensive and, in absolute terms, very unproductive.

This in itself is a huge deterrent to quality Foreign Direct Investment into diversified economic activity and development. Most FDI on T&T is rapacious and not at all sustainably developmental.

The money that has flooded T&T in the years 1973-2013 has distorted not only labour but land markets. As a result; all the 1st class privately owned arable land has been built on. The average available arable land is Class4; 5 & 6 - and prices here can begin at just under USD 2,000/ acre. This is undeveloped class 4; 5 & 6 land mind you!!

The returns on commodity agriculture on those lands make investment unwise- or, in my view - downright foolhardy.

When last I checked, I think Trinidad imports virtually 100% of its Cavendish dessert bananas from Suriname (daily wage ~USD $4.00?) & the Dominican Republic (daily wage ~USD 5.00). Bananas from thence retail on Trinidad at about USD .80 to 1.00/ lb. They are superior to Cavendish produced on Trinidad; and are excellent business for the importer.

Daily field worker wages on Trinidad (often about USD 20.00!!) exceed the statutory daily minimum - simply because a worker can get a government paid make-work job where s/he does close to nothing for more than $10 per day.

For decades, the government and its corporations have been the largest employers on T&T; paying out the energy largesse as insurance against social instability! The actual value of that production measured in terms of trade is beyond minuscule.

So truth be told, we can't even begin to produce Cavendish dessert bananas locally to compete with that tasty USD 1.00/lb material coming from Suriname & the DR.

Backward countries are backward for reasons. They just don't happen. Etiologies exist; can be traced; and sometimes - only sometimes - a civil and non-traumatic fix can be devised.

This is what I'm trying to address with bananas in my own piddling way.

Some Americans may think these matters are irrelevant; but they are not. Oftentimes when these small nations go rotten, they create uncertainty & compromise hemispheric security. Big - sometimes costly -headaches for the USA in its own neighbourhood!


shannon


shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

shannondicorse
09-12-2013, 04:51 AM
This American does not consider these matters irrelevant.

Kat2,

Neither do I.

Regional & hemispheric stability are important. Sociopathic political regimes thrive in dysfunctional economies. People who are chronically poor are easy targets for often well meaning, charismatic but hopelessly incompetent politicians - and sometimes, downright fiends.

The best way to ensure long-lasting stability - at least in this hemisphere - is to promote fundamentally successful economies.

A gradual but telling revision in banana breeding and agronomy is necessary. As things stand, the Emperor has no clothes.


shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

shannondicorse
09-12-2013, 05:02 AM
I find your Islands agro economy very interesting and would enjoy participating
in a separate thread about T&T / Caribbean if one had existed.
I don't think many Americans understand how these US companies operate,
Europeans seem to easily grasp the situation.

At $0.80 to $1.00 per lb retail, it sure seems as though there's a lot of meat on the bone.
It would be helpful to know the CIF price of these imported bananas, but if a farmer can
get $0.20 per lb they would be fine with about $500 USD per week per acre.

Thanks for all the info you've added.

This seems like a very good place to get your message out.

PR-Giants,

If you start a thread; I'm sure a few interested folks would participate. There seems to be a wealth of knowledgeable & skilled people in bananas.org.

Despite everything said; bananas, worldwide, are in crisis.

And the crises are not about Cavendish, FOC-TR4 or Black Sigatoka.

The crises are born of faulty agronomy; misplaced breeding goals; and a failure to understand the economic nature of sustainable production of tropical clonal crops in countries that aspire to industrialisation and increased GDP based on industrial models established in Europe, America & Japan.

The Banana is admittedly a particularly difficult subject. But it is not intractable.

If the situation worldwide continues as it is going; the decline may end up being irreversible one day.


sincerely,


shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com