View Full Version : Musa Nepal?
chrisltropical
05-23-2007, 11:26 PM
What is your take on Musa Nepal?
Here's a description....
http://www.exo-center.com/Musa%20Nepal.htm
Just wondering what the banana experts have to say about this potentially new cold hardy banana?
51st state
05-30-2007, 03:37 PM
I think you'll find its Ensete Glaucum, the key in the description they give is the fat trunk. got to be an ensete.
http://www.banana-tree.com/Product_Detail~category~22~Product_ID~18984.cfm
the flying dutchman
05-30-2007, 04:28 PM
In the dutch Text he uses the word Tuber instead Trunk.
bigdog
05-30-2007, 06:29 PM
I have never heard of this species until your post. The banana in the picture is neither Ensete glaucum nor Ensete ventricosum, but rather a Musa. It's a beauty too! Seems as if Europe has more cold-hardy bananas available than the U.S.
the flying dutchman
05-30-2007, 07:21 PM
I don't know but if you push the 'ORDER' button it has disappeared for me.
Ron
Steve in France
05-30-2007, 08:43 PM
I don't know what it is , I thought it might be Musa sp 'Tibet' but it's not. I did find an old pic of Tibet in my garden , you can still get it from Roland of Tropical Centre in Holland.
http://upload8.postimage.org/596726/photo_hosting.html
Later
Steve
Dombo
02-06-2008, 03:10 PM
Hello,
may be that Musa Nepal is the same as Musa sp. Yangtse.
here is a link to Musa Nepal:
Musa Nepal pictures from gardens photos on webshots (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/1414648184075548434BvrzYT)
here are pics of my Musa sp. Yangtse I got from Tobias Spanner.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=2930&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2930)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=2928&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2928)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=2934&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2934)
Some months later
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7836&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7836)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7837&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7837)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7838&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7838)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7839&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7839)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7840&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7840)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7841&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7841)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=7842&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7842)
the Musa sp. Yangtse is very seldom, and the problem is, that the most trated Yangtses are other Musas.
bigdog
02-06-2008, 11:14 PM
Dombo, I think that your Musa sp. 'Yangtse' is a form of Musa itinerans, but I'm not sure which one. The leaf bases are right, the petiole wings look similar, the midrib is the right color also. Not much to go on really, just a guess. Can't tell much about the Musa 'Nepal'. Nice-looking plant though! Wish these would accidentally (or purposely) find their way over to the US.
Dombo
02-07-2008, 07:00 AM
Hello Frank,
I'm sure that mine is not an itinerans variety.
The growth is different from the itinerans.
Tobias Spanner brought the Musa sp. Yangtse from Yunan to germany.
His import (about 15 years ago) seemed to be the only entrance of this species to europe.
Seeds are not available.
This is the reason, why this plant is so rare.
My plant was a sucker of the plant that Tobias Spanner imported.
It seems, that all Musas with the name sp.Tibet and Nepal are the same as Musa sp. Yangtse.
You get the plants with the names sp. Tibet and Nepal much oftener.
So it suggests itself, that the Yangtse was tissue cultured some years ago and offered with new names by other salesmen,
... but this is anyone's guess!
Tropicallvr
02-07-2008, 10:44 AM
I contacted that seller of Musa Nepal about 6 months ago. He was asking $45, and would only do a bank transfer of funds, and it would have costed me $50 for the transfer, so I decided to pass. I think it's probably something special, and wouldn't mind ordering sometime in the future.
Oliver- Yours does appear similar, but the Nepal has alot more wax on the trunk.
Zac in NC
02-07-2008, 05:32 PM
Very interesting. I imagine it could be pretty hardy too.
Zac
Dombo
02-08-2008, 11:24 AM
Hello,
yes, it seems to be very hardy.
I want to plant it this year in my garden, then I can compare it with the cold hardiness of my outside cultivated Musa basjoo, Musa sikkimensis and Musa Orinoco.
tony palmer
02-08-2008, 02:39 PM
I know on the continent Musa Yangtze and Tibet are said to be the same plant, although that is true , they are both Musa Balbisiana forms, they were collected in two totally different places, Musa Tibet was collected in the Quinghai Plateau Tibet by Jean-Luc Penninckx, and Musa Yangtze was collected by Martin Gibbons and Toby Spanner in the Yangtze river valley in China, as they were both collected at different altitudes and places , that could have an reflection on their hardiness.
Dombo
02-08-2008, 03:20 PM
Hello Tony,
this is very interesting and thank you for this information.
bigdog
02-08-2008, 11:09 PM
I would like to see somebody raise all three of them side-by-side and get them all to flower and fruit. Only then will we have a better idea of what they really are. I see a slight resemblance to Musa balbisiana, but I don't think that is what Oliver's banana is. I still think it looks like a Musa itinerans variety. There are 6 varieties of Musa itinerans, and not all of them have the long rhizomes. Some are moderate, loose clumpers.
tony palmer
02-09-2008, 04:15 AM
Is there anyone else who thinks like me, the pic of M.nepal and the pic on webshots of M.tibet are the same plant but at different stages of growth, note the bamboo to the right and the ivy in the background on both pics, it isnt possible that the pic. of M.nepal is an Ensete because they dont clump like that, but the desciption is that of an Ensete, all very confusing.
Frank, i will ask Dr. Ge, he is an expert on bananas in southern yunnan, China, i know he has seen M.balbisiana sp.tibet in the wild and he may of seen Musa yangtze.
Dombo
02-09-2008, 11:39 AM
Hello,
flowers seem still to be unknown, and seeds as well.
The Musa Nepal in my link looks like my Yangtse, so they really seem to be the same species.
I have got the Musa itinerans, Musa itinerans "Indian Form" and the Musa itinerans var. xishuangbannaensis.
These itinerans varieties are without doubt different to my Yangtse.
Which itinerans varieties could be like my Yangtse, so I could try to compare it.
Dr. Michael Lorek from Tropengarten (http://www.tropengarten.com/) says <<it is not Musa balbisiana und not Musa sp. Yunan, may be it is a Hybrid.>>
But I think, that no one really knows it, because there is nowhere to find a scientific based statement.
bigdog
02-09-2008, 12:09 PM
Professor Markku Hakkinen has written an article on Musa itinerans, scheduled to appear in the next issue of Novon, a quarterly journal dedicated to botanical nomenclature.
I thought your Musa sp. 'Yangtse' looked like Musa itinerans 'Yunnan'. The M. itinerans varieties that I know about are var. xishuangbannaensis, var. guangdongensis (Burmese Blue), 'Yunnan', var. itinerans (which could be the same as 'India Form'). The only two that send out very long rhizomes are var. xishuangbannaensis and var. itinerans. The rest are moderate clumpers, according to Professor Hakkinen. I don't know where M. formosana fits into the complex, since it is a runner as well.
Tropicallvr
02-09-2008, 01:36 PM
With all this talk of hardy Musa balbisiana, it's really hard to tell if those plants are actually Musa balbisiana. There are at least 6 different hardy Musa species(M.thompsonii, M.initerans, M.tibet, M.yantzee, M.daj giant, M.hardy German) that have the Musa balbisiana leaf trait(recurved leaf where it meets the petiole). Until they flower, leaf shape isn't enough to go on.
I have to agree with Frank, they look like different plants, and it seems to me to be a form of M. initerans also.
bigdog
02-09-2008, 11:53 PM
With all this talk of hardy Musa balbisiana, it's really hard to tell if those plants are actually Musa balbisiana. There are at least 6 different hardy Musa species(M.thompsonii, M.initerans, M.tibet, M.yantzee, M.daj giant, M.hardy German) that have the Musa balbisiana leaf trait(recurved leaf where it meets the petiole).
Don't forget Musa yunnanensis! It also has rounded leaf bases.
tony palmer
02-10-2008, 05:04 AM
I don’t wont to get bogged down by the naming of this plant so i’m quite happy to simply refer to it as Musa “Yangtze”. what I would really like to no is whether it is hardy ,there is a sizable clump in the UK that has been planted out for several years, that originally came from Martin Gibbons I know the stem remains solid down to -4 but any lower than that i’m not sure, Mark Hall, has a pup from that clump so maybe he can chip in.
Mark Hall
02-10-2008, 05:32 AM
HiTony, The picture of the clump planted outside has both Sikkimenis and Yangtze side by side.
Also the link in the earlier thread (exo centre ) refers to the Itinerans Indian form as being a Yunnan and also a Cheesmanii too.
All very confusing.:0493:
I think I posted pictures on here of my Yangtze with pup but I can't find them
mrbungalow
02-10-2008, 03:12 PM
I am almost certain the "Musa Nepal" on this guys' website is plain old sikkimensis or atleast a sikkimensis cross of some sort.... the red/brown midribs, general shape of the leaves, and the powder seem to point in that direction.
As far as I know there is no species officially described as "Musa Nepal".
Mark Hall
02-14-2008, 11:26 AM
Here,s the pups.
griphuz
02-17-2008, 03:05 PM
Just as mrbungalow says, I think it's just some sikkimensis variety...
The first sikki-seeds that came to Europe did not really have alot of red (not at the top of the leaves like 'Red Tiger' but also not alot at the underside).
Gereral remark; don't believe to much people claim on the internet, some people tend to be very optimistic and call a species hardy when they have had the luck of overwintering it outdoors for one or two years in a very mild winter.
My English is far from perfect, and that's not what we are here for, I know, but if you look at his English, maybe it's a reflection of the general level of education? It's a litteral translation from Dutch!! Word for word!
tony palmer
02-17-2008, 04:28 PM
If you meen the seed first sold rather erroneously as Musa Hookerii and supplied by Toby Spanner in 1998, I have had that in my garden for several years now, and it does seem quite different to the sikkimensis you see around today, but it is different to Musa Nepal , note the glaucus underside on the leaf of Nepal and on the leaf stalk, you don’t see that at all on my sikkimensis. personally i think it may be Musa Tibet, i have bean told that he got it from Jean-luc Penninckx
mrbungalow
02-17-2008, 05:04 PM
Sikkimensis grown from the same batch of seeds can show great variation. Some are more red, some ar all green, some have alot of wax, some have no wax, some have dark blotches on the stems, some don't.
That's basically the root of the problem with these species-bananas: "Wich are forms of polymorphism* in wild musas, and wich are distinct species?"
*Polymorphism in biology occurs when two or more clearly different phenotypes exist in the same population of a species — in other words, the occurrence of more than one form or morph.
griphuz
02-17-2008, 05:11 PM
Hi Tony,
Indeed, 'Tibet' might come closer, but doesn't have any red midrib as I see on this picture if I'm right.
And Jean-luc (no dissrespect) has brought more names on the market in bananacountry. 'Tibet' is thought to be just a specific clone of basjoo according to some,...just aswell as 'Fujiama', 'Saporro' and 'Sakhalin' are...
I wouldn't get my hopes up to high about this Musa 'Nepal' actually being a 'new' or interesting species. Much more likely just a missnamed species with an alledged hardiness claimed by just one person for now...
the flying dutchman
02-17-2008, 05:28 PM
Hey Remco, you forgot to mention Musa Basjoo 'Tchetchenie'
Ron
griphuz
02-17-2008, 05:30 PM
ow, didn't hear that name before Ron,
but I can guess where it's supposidly from, haha!
Can you tell me more about it?
the flying dutchman
02-17-2008, 05:34 PM
Here you are
Bananiers (http://www.penninckx.com/index.php?pr=bananiers)
Btw how are my Brahea Armata super silver seedlings doing:)
Ron
tony palmer
02-17-2008, 05:46 PM
Hi griphuz,
i have a frend in Cornwall, and he has Musa Tibet that he bought from Kobakoba, and it definitely isn't Musa Basjoo this is what David Constantine
says about.
Musa 'Tibet' (http://www.aump26.dsl.pipex.com/musa_'tibet'.htm)
Dombo
02-18-2008, 06:55 AM
Hello,
the picture in the first link does not allow to make a accurate identification.
Musa Nepal seems to be the same as Musa Tibet and as the same as Musa Yangtse.
The difference is, that the Nepal and the Tibet was certainly tissue cultured.
And the red midrib can also exist by Musa basjoo, Musa itinerans, Musa balbisiana and Musa sikkimensis. My Yangtse is different to the mentioned Musas and I have all this species to compare.
Mine is surely no sikkimensis, but may be it could be a unknown form of balbisiana or itinerans, or a hybrid, but than it is not a species of the described/known itinerans and balbisiana forms that I know.
tony palmer
02-18-2008, 12:43 PM
Hi Olli,
I think your right they could well end up as a new species , that is Musa Tibet and Musa Yangtze
I think the person that named Musa Nepal was on the bottle when he named it. Its like frank said we need to grow them along side each other to try help identify them its no good just guessing.
Tony
Mark Hall
02-20-2008, 10:31 AM
Tropical centre are saying its one of the more cold tolerent bananas and a good candidate for the outside garden.
Musa tibet (http://www.tropicalcentre.com/others/musatibet/musatibet.htm?PHPSESSID=57e4706ced0b84d144c5328c62653991)
bikoro child
02-20-2008, 11:56 AM
hello you can find Musa Tibet here they says it's the same as Musa Yangtse they also say it grows in zone 8
Musa sp tibet de la famille des Musacées (http://www.lamaisondubananier.com/description.php?II=38&UID=2008022017504586.207.139.34)
mrbungalow
02-20-2008, 04:21 PM
Hello,
the picture in the first link does not allow to make a accurate identification.
Musa Nepal seems to be the same as Musa Tibet and as the same as Musa Yangtse.
The difference is, that the Nepal and the Tibet was certainly tissue cultured.
And the red midrib can also exist by Musa basjoo, Musa itinerans, Musa balbisiana and Musa sikkimensis. My Yangtse is different to the mentioned Musas and I have all this species to compare.
Mine is surely no sikkimensis, but may be it could be a unknown form of balbisiana or itinerans, or a hybrid, but than it is not a species of the described/known itinerans and balbisiana forms that I know.
Accurate ID is as you say difficult without a flower, but I still think the photos in the first link tells us alot. It tells us it's not likely to be a balbisiana hybrid, since typical "unattached/rounded balbisiana leaves" seems * to be a dominant trait in musa. If you look at plantains, wich usually contain more B genes than A genes, most of these have the typical balbisiana shaped leaves.
In the photo the leaves are "attached" like acuminata or sikkimensis.
Further I recall hearing that true Musa Balbisiana isn't supposed to have red colouring at all. Even though variability exists within the species, it is said to be alot less variable than for example Musa Acuminata. On top of this we know balbisiana hybridizes often in the himalayan foothills, (ex. sikkimensis, cheesmani, nagensium).
Sorting the genus Musa is almost impossible, and bringing hybrids into the picture, well, certainly doesn't make it easier!! And what if hybrids breed with hybrids etc. etc. :2741: Can make a poor guy go crazy, but basically this is the reason why I am weary of vendors selling "New possibly super cold hardy banana species.." At the same time, nothing should be untried, so I try to find some kind of balance! ;-)
Musa Yangtse is described atleast, so you could get more info from there. Musa Nepal is not a described species, as far as I know only a misplaced name for Ensete glaucum.
* I say "seems" because I am not certain about this!!
Dombo
02-21-2008, 07:05 AM
Hello Erlend,
Further I recall hearing that true Musa Balbisiana isn't supposed to have red colouring at all. Even though variability exists within the species, it is said to be alot less variable than for example Musa Acuminata. On top of this we know balbisiana hybridizes often in the himalayan foothills, (ex. sikkimensis, cheesmani, nagensium).
the Musa balbisiana in the botanical garden in Cologne has red colouring.
look here, there is a photo of the Musa Balbisiana in Cologne (http://velutina.brinkster.net/Basjoo/Englisch/Bananaspecies.html)
May be it is not a pure Balbisiana, I don't know.
The Musa sp. Yangtse is coldresistent, because I know someone in the swiss, who has cultivated this Musa outside.
But it does not seem to be so hardy like Musa basjoo.
In the next years I will make my own experiences with the Musa sp. Yangtse.
Accurate ID is as you say difficult without a flower, but I still think the photos in the first link tells us alot.
I think the photo in the first link http://www.exo-center.com/Musa%20Nepal.htm doesn't help, because the leaves are wet and glossy, there is back light, only one view and this is small.
To say more, there should be more detailed views, for example of the top, of the leaves, under the leaves, of the petioles, ...and so on.
mrbungalow
02-21-2008, 08:40 AM
I think the photo in the first link http://www.exo-center.com/Musa%20Nepal.htm doesn't help, because the leaves are wet and glossy, there is back light, only one view and this is small.
To say more, there should be more detailed views, for example of the top, of the leaves, under the leaves, of the petioles, ...and so on.
I must agree with you there. I think I managed to look at another photo... Sorry! Just forget what I said about leaf-shape etc. here!
I was wondering if anybody by chance has seed-pictures?
The legendary balbisiana in Cologne botanical gardens is legendary! But are you sure it's red/brown and not black?
Actually, I think I heard it from someone here on bananas.org that balbisiana is sometimes black but never red! Anyone want to step forward?
Erlend
Dombo
02-21-2008, 08:56 AM
Hello Erlend,
I have a book, there are more pictures of the Musa balbisiana in Cologne.
It has red colouring.
In the description of the book it is also mentioned that it has red colouring.
And here in the description it was also mentioned, that it has red colouring.
look here and klick on the left side on Musa balbisiana (http://velutina.brinkster.net/Basjoo/Englisch/Bananaspecies.html)
mrbungalow
02-21-2008, 09:07 AM
Where did I hear musa balbisiana doesn't have red colouring??
If I dreamt it, m. balbisiana wont' be the only thing with red colouring, - my face too!!
lol
tony palmer
02-23-2008, 04:33 AM
Hi Olli,
Is there anyone in Germany selling that hardy Bilbisiana,
its one i would like to try in the UK.
Thanks Tony
Dombo
02-23-2008, 06:32 AM
Hello Tony,
sorry, but I don't know anyone who has it.
Chironex
07-12-2008, 09:35 PM
I would like to see photos of all 3 if you have them. This will help to know the differences.
51st state
07-13-2008, 09:25 AM
Where did I hear musa balbisiana doesn't have red colouring??
If I dreamt it, m. balbisiana wont' be the only thing with red colouring, - my face too!!
lol
well, i didn't think it had red colouring either and mine certainly doesn't.
the description as per DRC also does not refer to red colouring
see:- Musa balbisiana (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/mbalbisiana.htm)
tony palmer
07-14-2008, 02:09 AM
Kev,
I think the last part of the text is important, I read some were that balbisiana has the widest natural distributions of all the wild bananas with a number of subspecies not officially recardnised I wouldn’t rule it out that they have red in them, and it would call to question the ID of that balbisiana in a botanical garden in Germany. David Constantine say’s. (To some extent this uniformity is an illusion. While not as variable as M. acuminata taxonomists working in the field in India and south-east Asia are well aware that variability exists in M. balbisiana.)
Regards, Tony
Tropicallvr
07-14-2008, 12:07 PM
There seems to be two Musa balbisiana's on the market via seed right now, one of them grew better in cooler weather and did indeed have a midrib with tints of red/pink, but I killed them by not protecting them in the winter.
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