Fruiting AeAe Questions

[SurfCityPalms]

My oldest AeAe stock is finally fruiting so this now brings up a few questions.

Here they are:
1. Can I get viable seed from a single stock or do you need multiple plants for fertilization
2. How long does it take for the fruit to ripen or when should I harvest the seeds
3. Does the fruit need to show variegation in order to produce variegated seedlings (basically, should I even bother trying to harvest and germinate seeds from the bananas that are mainly green)

Any advice would be nice and thanx in advance!
Jerod

[sunfish]

Originally Posted by SurfCityPalms

My oldest AeAe stock is finally fruiting so this now brings up a few questions.

Here they are:
1. Can I get viable seed from a single stock or do you need multiple plants for fertilization
2. How long does it take for the fruit to ripen or when should I harvest the seeds
3. Does the fruit need to show variegation in order to produce variegated seedlings (basically, should I even bother trying to harvest and germinate seeds from the bananas that are mainly green)

Any advice would be nice and thanx in advance!
Jerod

no seed from this one

[Abnshrek]

Unless its really a Tanee your plant has edible fruit.

[robguz24]

My last bunch took 4.5 months to be ripe and ready to harvest.

[sunfish]

Harvest the seed when you harvest the fruit

[shannondicorse]

Jerod,

AeAe is a chimera... it contains two types of cells... a normal type and a chloroplast dysfunctional type. So it really won't produce (if it could) seed that would grow into variegated babies.

AeAe is an AAB - a triploid that displays (as triploids are wont to do) a lot of sterility. On some of my (shannon-made) AABs I get as many as 10 seeds in a bunch - with open pollination from stools of Musa acuminata malaccensis - a wild banana.

If you need to produce babies aplenty try to grow a robust AeAe plant to fruiting; then divide the corm after the pups come out post fruiting. AeAe is reminiscent of true plaintains - there is a degree of apical dominance - so, once the mother plant is growing, it suppresses the babies.

A type of genetic variegation called "albinism" occurs on some seed bananas - in my experience, it is very common on some lineages of balbisiana bananas.

Here you may get variegated,light green, green or completely unpigmented seedlings (these latter die...).

Hope this helps?


shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

[banana13]

I thought Aeae were seedless?

[bananimal]

Ten seeds on a bunch means seedless. Ae Ae is parthenocarpic --- the development of fruit without fertilization or formation of seeds. The ten are outliers - like a cow far from the rest of the herd. A neat way to phrase it.

And mucking thru an entire bunch to come up with a few viable seeds is a lot of messy work.

[sunfish]

Geez Louise,

[shannondicorse]

Originally Posted by bananimal

Ten seeds on a bunch means seedless. Ae Ae is parthenocarpic --- the development of fruit without fertilization or formation of seeds. The ten are outliers - like a cow far from the rest of the herd. A neat way to phrase it.

And mucking thru an entire bunch to come up with a few viable seeds is a lot of messy work.

Bananimal,

You are somewhat right about the difficulty of breeding triploid female parents. That's why in my breeding I usually use fully fertile diploids as female parents; and employ cultivar (triploid and other...) pollen.

However, sometimes you have no other choice...

So by horticultural propagation standards... oh yes..I'd agree with you 100%... but by breeder standards... well, we poor breeders have to work with what we have!

sincerely,

shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

[shannondicorse]

Originally Posted by banana13

I thought Aeae were seedless?

Banana 13,

They seem rather infertile.

That being said, the attention given to breeding in this group ( "Pacific Plantain") is minute compared to the monumental efforts spent on true plantains, Gros Michel, ABBs and Cavendish types.


sincerely,

shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

[SurfCityPalms]

So just to sum things up as I understand them as a banana novice; AeAe bananas will produce viable seeds, although VERY few, it is possible for a couple to be in the mix.

Correct?

[bananimal]

Shannon ---- someone posted a link within the last 2 years of a facility in the tropics where naners were split and smeared to find the occasional viable seed candidates. And only some of these could be germinated. Time consuming, messy and the only way to do it was the explanation. Could have been a FHIA team or Dole. I was boggled about 15 mins into the video and quit.

Originally Posted by shannondicorse

Bananimal,

You are somewhat right about the difficulty of breeding triploid female parents. That's why in my breeding I usually use fully fertile diploids as female parents; and employ cultivar (triploid and other...) pollen.

However, sometimes you have no other choice...

So by horticultural propagation standards... oh yes..I'd agree with you 100%... but by breeder standards... well, we poor breeders have to work with what we have!

sincerely,

shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

[sunfish]

Originally Posted by SurfCityPalms

So just to sum things up as I understand them as a banana novice; AeAe bananas will produce viable seeds, although VERY few, it is possible for a couple to be in the mix.

Correct?

Yes I am interested in the answer also

[shannondicorse]

Originally Posted by SurfCityPalms

So just to sum things up as I understand them as a banana novice; AeAe bananas will produce viable seeds, although VERY few, it is possible for a couple to be in the mix.

Correct?

Surf,

Just to make it clear... I have never tried to pollinate any of the sausage shaped "Pacific Plantain" group . I might try one day with Hua Moa... just to say I've tried... but frankly, if I did; I'd rather do the reverse -try to use whatever very sparse Hua Moa pollen I can get to pollinate a balbisiana or an acuminata diploid; as these wild species are extremely female-fertile.

Everything I've read,though, says it can't be done - because these Pacific varieties are rather male and female sterile. Who knows?

This is, BTW, the really tedious part of extracting useful genetic material from triploid bananas, in the breeding of new cultivars from those ancient sterile hybrid cultivars we have inherited from the past.

My breeding experience is more with old AAA, AAB & ABB cultivars of Asia - and lately with "synthetic" triploids. I'm trying to use their "good" genes to domesticate wild species. Some of them, in the literature and in my experience, do produce a paltry few seeds with viable embryos on pollination.

Speaking now as a horticulturalist and gardener (...which is one of my first loves), if I wanted to propagate a specific banana cultivar commercially; I'd have to propagate a clonal line. Because, I'd want true-to-type plants.

For this, micropropagation methods - tissue culture etc., are currently en vogue. For my part I prefer cheap, simple macropropagation techniques from corms.

Now, AeAe is a chimera. This means that its meristem - its stem cell niches, if you wish - are not of ONE lineage like most bananas but of at least TWO types. Furthermore the types are spatially arranged in the meristem so that variegation occurs; and that variegation can be propagated indefinitely (...albeit there are significant reversions to all-green; and conversely, conversion to complete albinism).

So if you wish to propagate AeAe for fun or profit (or, why not BOTH!)... tissue culture is not really feasible, because you'll disrupt the topology of the chimeric meristem and it's not likely to be suitably reconstituted from the cultured calli - the name given to those amorphous aggregations of cells in tissue culture that might eventually give rise to somatic embryos.

You have to use macropropagation with AeAe.

In its simplest form, this means harvesting pups. But you can get many plantlets from a suitably treated corm, specially wounded, disinfected and placed in a suitable medium: sawdust mixtures; rice straw etc.

So If a horticulturalist wants to profitably grow AeAe - which are admittedly rather cute fellers - I'd recommend that s/he use this latter macropropagation method.

To the best of my knowledge, the "AeAe seed" offered by some folks on the internet might be scams.


sincerely,


shannon


shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

[SurfCityPalms]

That makes sense.

The biggest part of my confusion is that there is a reputable seller on ebay that I have purchased hundreds of palms from (i know they are all true forms as that is my expertise). He sells AeAe seedlings; I say seedling because they are only 1-1.5 feet in length, only about 0.5 inches in diameter, and they already have multiple leaves.

With my AeAe pups they don't get their first leaf until they are about 3 feet tall and have a base of about 3 inches think.

Based on that information what would you think he is doing or selling? Is he misnaming his seedlings or doing some odd kind of cultivation?

Jerod

[shannondicorse]

Originally Posted by SurfCityPalms

That makes sense.

The biggest part of my confusion is that there is a reputable seller on ebay that I have purchased hundreds of palms from (i know they are all true forms as that is my expertise). He sells AeAe seedlings; I say seedling because they are only 1-1.5 feet in length, only about 0.5 inches in diameter, and they already have multiple leaves.

With my AeAe pups they don't get their first leaf until they are about 3 feet tall and have a base of about 3 inches think.

Based on that information what would you think he is doing or selling? Is he misnaming his seedlings or doing some odd kind of cultivation?

Jerod

Oh Jerod, No!

In commercial banana terminology, small mass-produced plantlets (as opposed to sword sucker derived "pups") are often legitimately termed "seedlings".

So it's just a language thing. For example, I never say "pup" to commercial farmers. They'd laugh. They talk about seedlings, suckers, swords, water shoots, peepers, maidens and bullheads! When referring to their planting material.

So no-one is being underhanded. Whew! Nice to have my faith in humanity restored (lol)!


shannon


shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

[shannondicorse]

Originally Posted by bananimal

Shannon ---- someone posted a link within the last 2 years of a facility in the tropics where naners were split and smeared to find the occasional viable seed candidates. And only some of these could be germinated. Time consuming, messy and the only way to do it was the explanation. Could have been a FHIA team or Dole. I was boggled about 15 mins into the video and quit.

Yep. That's (sadly) the usual method.

Verrrryyy tedious and very expensive. With some plantains you have to go through hundreds of bunches to get ten seeds! With really misbehaving varieties like Cavendish, I hear its thousands of bunches to get 1 seed! Talk about patience. Talk about expense.

That's why I use cultivar pollen to highly fertile diploid females.

I am not well funded; both in $$ and in patience!


shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

[sunfish]

Holy Toledo that's a lot of words and post just to say no seed from this one

[banana13]

Originally Posted by sunfish

Holy Toledo that's a lot of words and post just to say no seed from this one

Yeah, that's what i was thinking.