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View Full Version : Ice Cream or "I Scream"?


JodoGarden
11-26-2012, 01:23 PM
The previous Ice Cream post mentions Wellspring possibly not selling true plants. I just got this plant from them... it's small, but I was wondering if anyone can ID it. I want to sell banana pups at farmers' market eventually... preferably before this one fruits, but I will wait if ID isn't possible.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=51466&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=51466)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=51467&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=51467)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=51465&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=51465)

<a href="http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=zmw:34224.1.99999&bannertypeclick=wu_blueglass"><img src="http://weathersticker.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/banner/ban/wxBanner?bannertype=wu_blueglass&airportcode=KVNC&ForcedCity=Englewood&ForcedState=FL" alt="Click for Englewood, Florida Forecast" height="90" width="160" /></a>

caliboy1994
11-26-2012, 04:08 PM
It really is impossible to tell at this point, but given that it's a TC it's probably not actually Ice Cream and probably Tall Namwah.

JodoGarden
11-26-2012, 04:11 PM
I figured it was a long shot to ID it. Wellspring is doing tissue culture? I guess that explains why it looks the way it does. Where's a good source for Blue Java? Going Bananas?

caliboy1994
11-26-2012, 04:54 PM
Jon (pitangadiego) has it. I obtained a pup from him recently. I'm not sure if he's able to ship to Florida. Funny, I have three different varieties labeled Ice Cream and only one is the real thing! :ha:

Dangermouse01
11-26-2012, 05:11 PM
Jon (pitangadiego) has it. I obtained a pup from him recently. I'm not sure if he's able to ship to Florida.

He is able to ship to Florida. Costs an extra $7 for the ag inspection.

DM

JodoGarden
11-26-2012, 06:02 PM
OK thanks. Maybe I can find someone in state that might have it. I was thinking that Going Bananas might be a good source since it's actually a farm. Anyone order from them? They are probably part of this forum, I'd be willing to bet.

Welcome to Going Bananas of Homestead, Florida! (http://www.going-bananas.com/)

caliboy1994
11-26-2012, 08:39 PM
I think someone ordered one from Going Bananas, and despite their reputability, it turned out to be a Tall Namwah anyways. The fact of the matter is that IC is so rare on the mainland due to mislabeling issues that you have to get it from someone who you know for sure actually has the real thing.

JodoGarden
11-26-2012, 09:03 PM
I was looking at Going Bananas and they do say that some of their stock is TC, so I probably won't be ordering anything from them. I guess I'm in the right place on this forum to find someone... I'll ask Jon, thanks for the lead on that. There is a small nursery nearby and they sell some hard to find varieties. I was looking for Blue Java last year and he said that he doesn't grow it b/c it doesn't do well in this part of FL (SW). It was weird b/c I questioned him on it and he didn't really want to say what it was specifically about growing it here.

<a href="http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=zmw:34224.1.99999&bannertypeclick=wu_bluestripes"><img src="http://weathersticker.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/banner/ban/wxBanner?bannertype=wu_bluestripes&airportcode=KVNC&ForcedCity=Englewood&ForcedState=FL" alt="Click for Englewood, Florida Forecast" height="90" width="160" /></a>

venturabananas
11-26-2012, 09:23 PM
The "Ice Cream" I got from Wellspring was Tall Namwah, not the real deal. FYI.

JodoGarden
11-26-2012, 09:28 PM
I know.. thanks for that. Unfortunately I had already ordered from Wellspring by the time I read the other Ice Cream ID thread. Your comment was what got me started on this.. I wanted to see if possibly mine was the real deal. I would have probably gone until fruiting before I found that it was Tall Namwah had I not read the other thread.

JodoGarden
11-26-2012, 09:32 PM
No big deal really... Tall Namwah will be good. I just don't want to sell pups if there is any chance at all that it might not be Blue Java... which sounds like the case.

<a href="http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=zmw:34224.1.99999&bannertypeclick=wu_bluestripes"><img src="http://weathersticker.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/banner/ban/wxBanner?bannertype=wu_bluestripes&airportcode=KVNC&ForcedCity=Englewood&ForcedState=FL" alt="Click for Englewood, Florida Forecast" height="90" width="160" /></a>

edzone9
11-26-2012, 10:44 PM
I Bought 2 " Blue Java From Wellspring , After Reading This I Guess I dont Have The Real Deal Either .

You Would Think That a Nursurey Would Now The Differance ?
Or Is It false advertising ?

I Visited Don At Going Bananas & He Had Lots Of Banana Plants ! I Bought Afew , He Came across As Very knowledgeable ! Nice Guy Too !.

I would Think He would Know The Differance .

Either way Im aslo In The Market For 2 True Blue Javas .
There has got to be a Source .

Can Any One Buy From The TC Place Agri ? Or Is it just For License Garden Shop.

I Would Think They Have The Real Deal .

Good Luck !

JodoGarden
11-26-2012, 10:52 PM
I'm not actually sure what the deal is. I'm guess that Blue Java can't be grown through tissue culture and that Tall Namwah looks like Blue Java in a lot of ways... I have no idea about the flavor. I have to assume that Blue Java is superior since it is legendary for flavor. I'm just guessing but Wellspring probably considers the two varieties extremely similar and just sells Tall Namwah as Blue Java for convenience purposes. That is something that is commonly done in the retail trade, but not usually with fruit from what I've seen.

edzone9
11-26-2012, 10:58 PM
I Dont Think Thats Right , If Its A Tall Namwah , It Should be sold as What It Is ..

Maybe we should go straight to the source ?
Is The Blue Java From Hawaii?, There got to be a Seller In Hawaii That sells The Real Deal.

JodoGarden
11-26-2012, 11:06 PM
I don't think it's right either. I was actually surprised to read the first thread that Wellspring was doing this. I assumed Blue Java was from Indonesia, but I took the name literally. I think the best bet is to get a pup here from someone... probably the best source actually b/c everyone knows what they are talking about and are interested in Musa knowledge and propagation. See above post for member source.

<a href="http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=zmw:34224.1.99999&bannertypeclick=wu_blueglass"><img src="http://weathersticker.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/banner/ban/wxBanner?bannertype=wu_blueglass&airportcode=KVNC&ForcedCity=Englewood&ForcedState=FL" alt="Click for Englewood, Florida Forecast" height="90" width="160" /></a>

caliboy1994
11-27-2012, 12:13 AM
Most of the time, it's not even the nursery's fault. They are likely getting all of their TCs from AgriStarts, a tissue culturing company that mass produces banana TCs. They were the ones who created the mix up in the first place, and it occurred because as young TCs, Ice Cream and Tall Namwah are virtually indistinguishable because they have extremely similar coloration and are in the same genetic group (ABB). So, Wellspring would not take the blame for the mix-up, AgriStarts would because they are the ones who caused this whole ordeal in the first place.

And no, many people argue that Namwah bananas are superior to the actual Ice Cream bananas. I cannot attest to this myself, having not tasted either, but you can ask someone from Hawaii who has tasted both on their personal opinion. I've noted that some of them said that Ice Cream tends to have a pithy core (unlike Namwah, which is generally smooth and creamy throughout) which is undesirable.

As JodoGarden said, getting a pup through an Org member is the best thing you can do. Jon (pitangadiego) and a few other California and Hawaii members, including me, have the real plant, but I'm not sure exactly how many of us have pups available at the moment. Jon has pups available, and I don't. As for the California members, I'm not sure who else does and who doesn't and the Hawaii members I believe cannot export plants due to trade restrictions. I should have pups available for trade eventually. If I were to ever try my hand in tissue culturing, I would be happy to distribute TCs to Org members. :ha:

2woodensticks
11-27-2012, 04:15 PM
is it the petioles that really tell ice cream or not???on mine only slightly ,ever so slightly open.where as on my orinoco they are closed and touching..

JodoGarden
11-27-2012, 04:39 PM
I haven't been able to find too much info on Namwah. Is the unripe fruit bluish as well?

<a href="http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=zmw:34224.1.99999&bannertypeclick=wu_blueglass"><img src="http://weathersticker.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/banner/ban/wxBanner?bannertype=wu_blueglass&airportcode=KVNC&ForcedCity=Englewood&ForcedState=FL" alt="Click for Englewood, Florida Forecast" height="90" width="160" /></a>

caliboy1994
11-27-2012, 04:45 PM
Sometimes it has a very slight blue tinge, but not nearly as blue as the actual Ice Cream.

venturabananas
11-27-2012, 05:00 PM
Both Blue Java and Namwah have lots of white, powdery wax on the fruit, which gives the impression that the fruit are blueish. But Blue Java normally looks quite bit more blue.

caliboy1994
11-28-2012, 02:23 AM
is it the petioles that really tell ice cream or not???on mine only slightly ,ever so slightly open.where as on my orinoco they are closed and touching..

Petioles for ABB varieties like Namwah, Orinoco, and Ice Cream tend to be closed. I've noticed on my Tall Namwah (labeled Ice Cream) that the petioles tend to open up in hot, dry conditions. But by default, they are closed. I guess that environmental conditions, as well as growing conditions, can affect the degree to which the petioles are open or closed.

The main way to distinguish a true Ice Cream from Tall Namwah is to look at the leaf margins. Namwah tends to have a very pronounced pink border, while Ice Cream tends to have little to no pink on the leaf margin.

Jose263
11-28-2012, 07:05 PM
I haven't been able to find too much info on Namwah. Is the unripe fruit bluish as well?

<a href="http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=zmw:34224.1.99999&bannertypeclick=wu_blueglass"><img src="http://weathersticker.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/banner/ban/wxBanner?bannertype=wu_blueglass&airportcode=KVNC&ForcedCity=Englewood&ForcedState=FL" alt="Click for Englewood, Florida Forecast" height="90" width="160" /></a>
My 'not ice cream' (T. Namwah aka Blue Java) and Orinoco both produced this season. The namwah fruit were shorter, full and more tightly packed on the bunch and took an extra month to ripen vs. orinoco. I think i detected a little bluish but that may have been wishful thinking. the T Namwah pups alot - pup leaves have reddish borders and reddish mid stem underside of leaves. I think the IC is all green
I was disappointed to learn I had a Namwah instead of Blue Java- but these nanas are excellent, way better than orinoco :0517:- Still hoping to taste a real IC- BJ. but happy with my Namwah. :goteam::goteam:

venturabananas
11-28-2012, 07:15 PM
I was disappointed to learn I had a Namwah instead of Blue Java- but these nanas are excellent, way better than orinoco. Still hoping to taste a real IC-BJ, but happy with my Namwah.

If you are like most folks who've tried them both, you will prefer Namwah over Blue Java, so don't be too disappointed in the way things turned out.

JodoGarden
11-28-2012, 07:16 PM
I've seen some pics in the photo gallery of Namwahs that seemed bluish... could have just been the photo or my monitor, but I will look for those photos again and post them. Here I go guessing again based on other plants... but maybe the bluish hue is greater or lesser depending on environmental factors, like wind for example. Plants produce a waxy layer on leaves as they mature to toughen up for wind exposure, heat etc. Maybe the bluish hue on the bananas has some relation to that? I know someone else will know for sure.

caliboy1994
11-28-2012, 08:53 PM
Here's a comparison:

Real Ice Cream (from Iunepeace's photo gallery):

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=49499&size=1

Tall Namwah (Misi Luki Awak, pretty much the same thing as Not Ice Cream; from webebananas.com)

http://webebananas.com/bpix/BP910-97.jpg

http://webebananas.com/bpix/BP945-22.jpg

As you can see, Namwah types can have some blue on them, but not nearly as much as the actual Ice Cream. Mature Ice Cream fruits also tend to be a lot more angular in shape, while Namwah fruits are more round and bottle-nosed.

JodoGarden
11-28-2012, 09:58 PM
Good comparison Caliboy. I found the photo I was thinking of... by Worm Farmer... nowhere near as blue as the IC example you posted.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=39172&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39172&si=namwah&perpage=12)
From Worm Farmer's gallery

caliboy1994
11-28-2012, 10:31 PM
Yep, that's definitely a Namwah type. If it were IC/BJ, the fruits would be much more blue and much more angular.

edzone9
11-29-2012, 04:16 PM
So Is Mr pitangadiego In The House ?

If So Would Like To Buy A Good Size Blue Java Ice Cream Pup:waving:.

caliboy1994
11-29-2012, 04:21 PM
So Is Mr pitangadiego In The House ?

If So Would Like To Buy A Good Size Blue Java Ice Cream Pup:waving:.

ENCANTO FARMS NURSERY (http://encantofarms.com/orders.html)

edzone9
11-29-2012, 04:48 PM
Thank You ! I Just Sent Them an Email..:nanadrink:

JodoGarden
11-30-2012, 08:25 PM
Are there any other ID methods for Ice Cream? I found a garden center nearby that has some stock labeled as Blue Java. The plants are $30, but are very stressed... wind mostly. I didn't even go there looking for bananas so I didn't take much time to look at them to see if there was any pink on the leaf or not. I probably would have even taken some photos.. maybe next time. The plants are about 5 feet tall, so I was hoping that I might be able to come up with a short list of ID characteristics as a checklist. I'm sure a lot of nursery stock originates at Agristarts in FL... so that's why I'm being such a nerd about this.

venturabananas
11-30-2012, 08:36 PM
Are there any other ID methods for Ice Cream?

Not really. It's pretty easy with one that is flowering or fruiting, but not so much before that stage. If it is being sold as "Ice Cream" and there is lots of pink along the leaf margins, it is probably a Pisang Awak ("Namwah").

JodoGarden
11-30-2012, 08:47 PM
I'll have to take a second look at what they have. I saw some black coloration on the p-stem of their plants... so not sure if I'd buy any of theirs. Other nurseries will have it too, so I'll have to look around and see what the leaf margins look like.

caliboy1994
11-30-2012, 09:24 PM
Namwah bananas are very good. I just tried a few today, and they're probably the best bananas I've ever eaten. The flavor is very sweet, but with a nice apple-like acid balance. It's definitely worth keeping the plant if it does turn out to be Namwah (which is very likely).

JodoGarden
11-30-2012, 09:27 PM
I'm def. keeping my Wellspring order, but I wanted to see if I can find a Blue Java locally. It would be an interesting comparison to grow them and note the differences and compare the fruit quality.

caliboy1994
11-30-2012, 09:58 PM
That's exactly what I plan on doing. Now that I have the actual thing, I'm going to grow it and Misi Luki (another Namwah clone) side-by-side.

JodoGarden
12-01-2012, 12:01 AM
Here's a close up look at a Blue Java (or is it?). It's indoors, so maybe isn't the best example... but the guy claims that the p-stem is bluish near the top and it does look that way in video... think it really is IC?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eEzjoHJI0gI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<a href="http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=zmw:34224.1.99999&bannertypeclick=wu_bluestripes"><img src="http://weathersticker.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/banner/ban/wxBanner?bannertype=wu_bluestripes&airportcode=KVNC&ForcedCity=Englewood&ForcedState=FL" alt="Click for Englewood, Florida Forecast" height="90" width="160" /></a>

caliboy1994
12-01-2012, 12:26 AM
It's hard to tell for sure, but my actual Ice Cream is a darker green color than that, and has a lot more wax on the petioles, leaf sheaths, and underside of the leaf. This could all be influenced by environmental conditions though. Here's a picture of my plant:

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t464/musamaniac/Musa/IMG_9110_zpsb6769e52.jpg

I believe the person who made that video is actually an Org member.

venturabananas
12-01-2012, 01:46 AM
Here's a close up look at a Blue Java (or is it?). It's indoors, so maybe isn't the best example... but the guy claims that the p-stem is bluish near the top and it does look that way in video... think it really is IC?

Who knows if it is Blue Java? A blueish pseudostem is not a way to distinguish a real Blue Java from a Pisang Awak (Namwah).

My guess is that all this talk about "ice Cream" being an awesome banana that tastes like vanilla, etc. is all based on misidentifications, and those comments are all about misidentified Pisang Awak bananas.

caliboy1994
12-01-2012, 02:50 AM
To me Pisang Awak tastes nothing like vanilla.

sunfish
12-01-2012, 09:17 AM
To me Pisang Awak tastes nothing like vanilla.

And does real blue java taste like vanilla ?

venturabananas
12-01-2012, 11:01 AM
To me Pisang Awak tastes nothing like vanilla.

Yes, and neither does Blue Java! :ha:

PR-Giants
12-01-2012, 11:26 AM
And does real blue java taste like vanilla ?

If you're looking for a banana with a vanilla flavor, try the variegated MUSA Cacao,

it will at least get you halfway there.

http://www.thevariegatedmusacacao.com/genus+Musa

PS, sometimes the link doesn't connect the first time so just keep trying.

robguz24
12-01-2012, 01:37 PM
And does real blue java taste like vanilla ?
Nope!

sunfish
12-01-2012, 08:02 PM
I heard the temple banana I have taste like spumoni ice cream with a hint of apple.I'm going to call it Musa Spumoni :)

Illia
12-03-2012, 09:20 PM
You've got my attention! Are you talking about this one (http://www.bananas.org/f12/temple-banana-14818.html)?