View Full Version : Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
NigelHaslam
09-24-2012, 12:36 AM
Hi folks,
How wonderful the is Internet.. a whole subculture of banana fanatics... Awesome!
My family live in the Northern Rivers region of New South Wales, Australia, just below the Queensland border. We're currently looking to buy a small acreage on which to live out our rural dream.
A commercial banana farm in our desired area has come on the market and I write here in the hope of quickly learning enough about bananas to get a handle on..
1/ The state of the banana industry (particularly in Australia)
2/ The ease of growing bananas and therefore the possibility of succes for our running the farm (without any previous experience of either farming or bananas),
3/ Whether we would be better off turning the farm to other uses and what other crops might suit the red volcanic soil, sub tropical climate and steep hillside terrain of the property.
4/ whether we'd be better off regenerating native forest on the property.
Any and all comments, criticism and advice, would be welcome.
A big concern centers on the possible degraded state of the soil or poisonous toxins remaining therein.
We understand that arsenic has been used in the past, in Australian banana plantations and wonder if there are soil tests which would enable a good picture of the state of the soil.
Thanks in advance
Nigel
Byron Bay
pushak513
09-24-2012, 07:04 AM
Im not sure what part of australia they grow in but tree ferns are a big business and the larger ones can go for an extreme amount of money. a thought if your plans don't work out for the banana farm.. I THINK those rainbow eucalyptus trees come from that area 2 and can command a big price tag
jjjankovsky
09-24-2012, 04:42 PM
My recent reading noted that the Cavendish strain in Australia was having a terrible time with disease. Best to check that out and/or value the land without the banana factor, as it may be nil.
NigelHaslam
09-24-2012, 04:59 PM
Thanks guys,
I'll be sure and check out the inside scoop on the cavendish strain
and
search for likely niche alternatives
all good stuff
Nigel
Narnia
09-24-2012, 06:24 PM
Hi folks,
How wonderful the is Internet.. a whole subculture of banana fanatics... Awesome!
My family live in the Northern Rivers region of New South Wales, Australia, just below the Queensland border. We're currently looking to buy a small acreage on which to live out our rural dream.
A commercial banana farm in our desired area has come on the market and I write here in the hope of quickly learning enough about bananas to get a handle on..
1/ The state of the banana industry (particularly in Australia)
2/ The ease of growing bananas and therefore the possibility of succes for our running the farm (without any previous experience of either farming or bananas),
3/ Whether we would be better off turning the farm to other uses and what other crops might suit the red volcanic soil, sub tropical climate and steep hillside terrain of the property.
4/ whether we'd be better off regenerating native forest on the property.
Any and all comments, criticism and advice, would be welcome.
A big concern centers on the possible degraded state of the soil or poisonous toxins remaining therein.
We understand that arsenic has been used in the past, in Australian banana plantations and wonder if there are soil tests which would enable a good picture of the state of the soil.
Thanks in advance
Nigel
Byron Bay
Byron Bay is a LONG LONG way from the Queensland border!
jjjankovsky
09-24-2012, 06:56 PM
We are living on a small property in southwest Mexico and after 7 years here, I'm getting the idea that comes with the local farmers' visions and failures...look around and see what other locals are doing. Are the banana guys selling or buying land?
We're sure that cocos, mangos and nothing else grow near us without major attention to new pesticides every year, and we've decided that income from the land will be minimal. And, it's very nice.
jhkewin
09-24-2012, 08:43 PM
A soil test should be easily done by any local ag lab, and you will get a lot more info and advice than just the arsenic levels. Biomass content, aridity, acidity, available mineral, nitrogen........
As a business addition you might consider using your "expired" trees for hog feed. My relatives are doing that in the Philippines. They replace over half the feed they would normaly buy with banana "tree trunks". (I know they aren't really trees.) The only trick is slicing,(not crushing or juicing), the trunks small enough. 1/8", or 3 mm is about right. Smaller gives the stomach problems, and larger leave to much undigested.
I'm working on a machine to do that for them. A giant deli slicer. Get back to me if you find a need for such a machine. I would share the design with you, and might supply unique parts at cost.
Good luck with the pastoral perambulations.
Jack
jjjankovsky
09-24-2012, 10:00 PM
tropical race four...
Scientists fight a devastating banana blight : The New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/01/10/110110fa_fact_peed)
brothertom2020
09-24-2012, 11:14 PM
Howdy Nigel: Yup, I'd go for a soil test before I would do anything else! Also do your due diligence and see what other farmers are up too! In other words, you could loose your butt in this transaction! Also ask the seller why he is wanting to get rid of the property?
,
If it is for a normal reason, ie retirement; moving, burned out, etc...it may be worthwhile to to continue your research. In addition I would draw up a purchase contract, requiring the seller to guarantee, the land is as indicated, allowing you to do a series of soil tests, throughout the property; and finally making sure that is was never a hazardous materials dump site! :-o. Use bail out clauses, in your contract... finally making sure that is was never a hazardous materials dump site...I your tests come back positive, for arsenic...run like hell, from the deal!
Stay Safe,Tom Portland, OR. USA
venturabananas
09-24-2012, 11:15 PM
Read this guide cover to cover before you make a decision:
Subtropical banana grower's handbook
from:
Home | Agriculture, Fisheries & Forestry | Queensland Government (http://www.daff.qld.gov.au/home.htm)
NigelHaslam
09-26-2012, 06:46 AM
Awesome advice... thanks to everyone who responded.
I'm checking out the property on Friday 28th and feel a lot better prepared thanks to you fine folks.
Cheers
Nigel
NigelHaslam
09-26-2012, 07:02 AM
Byron Bay is a LONG LONG way from the Queensland border!
Hi Veronica,
I see by your map reference that you are somewhere in the Northern Rivers, so I'm surprised that you would consider the Queensland border a long way away.
It takes me less than 40 mins to drive across the border to Coolangatta airport. In aussie terms that's barely a hop and a skip.
In mentioning my location I felt I was addressing a mostly international forum, and therefore drew with a broad brush stroke. I hope you didn't think I was being deceptive.
Cheers and thanks for taking an interest anyway.
Nigel
Narnia
09-26-2012, 07:28 AM
Awesome advice... thanks to everyone who responded.
I'm checking out the property on Friday 28th and feel a lot better prepared thanks to you fine folks.
Cheers
Nigel
Nigel,
Hello
It might be worthwhile having a talk to Ian Gerrard or Jeremy Bright at the DPI, Wollonbar Research Centre ph # 6626 1200 (located between Goonellabah and Alstonville on the Brunxner Higway) or Jim Aston DPI Murwillumbah ph # 66 723571. They'll be happy to answer questions you have re. Banana growing in this area.
Narnia
09-26-2012, 03:29 PM
Hi Veronica,
I see by your map reference that you are somewhere in the Northern Rivers, so I'm surprised that you would consider the Queensland border a long way away.
It takes me less than 40 mins to drive across the border to Coolangatta airport. In aussie terms that's barely a hop and a skip.
In mentioning my location I felt I was addressing a mostly international forum, and therefore drew with a broad brush stroke. I hope you didn't think I was being deceptive.
Cheers and thanks for taking an interest anyway.
Nigel
Sorry Nigel! I made a mistake! (A pretty dumb mistake) . I thoughtthe Qld boarderwas a long way I have to think again.You obiviously have a better judgment of distances than I do and probably a wider ,better knowledge of the roads and new bypasses etc. I don't travel by road much at all. The prospect of your new venture is exciting May it all go well for you.
GreenFin
09-26-2012, 04:18 PM
Read this guide cover to cover before you make a decision:
Subtropical banana grower's handbook
from:
Home | Agriculture, Fisheries & Forestry | Queensland Government (http://www.daff.qld.gov.au/home.htm)
That's a fantastic resource. Thanks for posting it :bananas_b
keep in mind that there are many other tropical fruits which can be grown instead of banana
while store shelf Nain sells for $1kg Lychee goes for $8kg and Longan $6kg
Jakfruit $5kg Sapodilla $6kg
all or none of these may be suited to your area, but if there are Asians these fruit are popular
as you said about the banana fanatic subculture, so it is with other tropical fruits.
Some growers even have a wait list of customers to be called FIRST when the Lychee are ripe.
I don't know about anywhere else, but in Florida there is a real demand for other tropical fruits that is rarely met locally.
NigelHaslam
09-26-2012, 08:01 PM
keep in mind that there are many other tropical fruits which can be grown instead of banana
while store shelf Nain sells for $1kg Lychee goes for $8kg and Longan $6kg
Jakfruit $5kg Sapodilla $6kg
all or none of these may be suited to your area, but if there are Asians these fruit are popular
as you said about the banana fanatic subculture, so it is with other tropical fruits.
Some growers even have a wait list of customers to be called FIRST when the Lychee are ripe.
I don't know about anywhere else, but in Florida there is a real demand for other tropical fruits that is rarely met locally.
These are exactly the kind of answers I was hoping for so a big THANKS to all.. any more sub-tropical cropping alternatives are welcome. Preferably easy grow, low maintenance, high return... LOL, as if!!
The site has a steep sided, North East aspect. I've noticed recenlty that a few other farms in the area with similar topology are growing Dragon Fruit. I understand it to be a big producer but, while it looks great, the taste doesn't deliver on that promise.
I'll check out the local lychee situation too.
I wonder if there is any reference where one can match soil types to appropriate crops?
Cheers
Nigel
Sustainable Farming News & Biological Agriculture Information. » Blog Archive » Growing Root Crops in Red Soil (http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/2009/01/growing-root-crops-in-red-soil/)
searching for red volcanioc soil leads me to
avocados, kiwifruit, passionfruit, rhubarb, apples and mangoes
I've seen quite a bit of talk about mango "Kensington Pride" in Oz.
IIRC flowering is irregular in some areas... something about the winter.
I was only reading it for research on Paclobutrazole and other PGRS.
This guy has Jaboticaba which I had neglected to mention due to their slow nature. Macadamia is listed on his site also.
Jabotica would be a good alternative to restoring native trees. You don't see many commercial growers because they can take 5-15 years to make fruit. They eventually will make multiple crops a year, some two, some six !
They are shallow rooted and may require irrigation (depends on rain/soil type)
Food Connect | The people (http://brisbane.foodconnect.com.au/about-us/the-people/our-hard-working-farmers/marianne-and-brian-keating/)
Here is subtropical coffee? holy smoke!!
these guys are close to you too !!! check the map
I like coffee a LOT because it seems more like a need than a mango. I doubt demand will EVER dry up.
Our Industry | Australian Subtropical Coffee Association (http://www.astca.org/our-industry/)
Since you want others....
Cherimoya Annona cherimola
cherry of the Rio Grande Eugenia aggregata
Brazilian cherry Eugenia brasiliensis
Guava
Japanese plum Eriobotrya japonica
Passion fruit Passiflora edulis
White Sapote Casimiroa edulis
Starfruit Averrhoa carambola
and here I was just going to post this
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt352/bumblepufff/sheep-on-motorcycle-380x321.jpg
and hint that you might be a kiwi
ImperialExotics
09-29-2012, 04:05 PM
There is a very definitive guide to commercial propagation of bananas on youtube by scott nelson.
Best information around.
NigelHaslam
10-01-2012, 12:52 AM
Hi Folks,
Well, my wife and I went to see the two banana farms on Friday and we were fortunate to run into the banana farmer who works the neighbouring property. His first words to us were "I hope you're not greenies!", meaning anti-pesticides.
We had to answer in the affirmative, we do indeed fall into the broad category of vegetarian, tree-hugging hippies. We buy organic food and yearn for a world free of contaminated, genetically modified, heavily refined processed foods for our daughter to inherit. This guy was totally comitted to a better world through chemicals.. he could have been a Monsanto salesman for the depth of his commitment to pesticides, claiming that once a year he sprays his entire plantation by plane. He told us the 'so-called' organic farmers at our local farmers market were just a con and that the only way you could be sure that a piece of fruit was organic was if you found grubs inside it.
It was a shocking reminder that we've been living this chemical experiment of pesticide use for so long, this man, I guess in his late fifties, was aware of no alternative. And ignorant of the changes going on in the world - changes that the big supermarkets are already aware of and clearing more and more shelf space for. Today's consumers are better informed, more and more of us are demanding and prepared to pay extra for clean, unadulterated food.
It's possible that he may even have been trying to put us off purchasing the property for reasons of his own. I don't know.
Anyway, thanks again for all the encouragement and helpful suggestions which are still going to be useful in whichever rural property we purchase. It just won't be be next door to this banana farmer.
Cheers
Nigel Haslam
We buy organic food and yearn for a world free of contaminated, genetically modified, heavily refined processed foods for our daughter to inherit.
that sucks
This guy was totally committed to a better world through chemicals.. he could have been a Monsanto salesman for the depth of his commitment to pesticides
but it IS the current state of the banana industry (and most other crops)
it's not that farmers like chemicals, but they hate losing a crop/their land/business/house/social standing/wife need I go on?
if you were in a footrace and your neck was the prize you'd be pouring it on too
survival instinct is strong
plus lots of farmers are only slightly smarter than their livestock :ha:
good luck and be sure too come back and see us
or you could hang out and learn to get a headstart on your farming skills
NigelHaslam
10-01-2012, 01:42 AM
I think I may have kicked a hornet's nest here...
Can't wait to hear from some others.
GW I agree that pesticide and petro-chemical fertilised monocropping is the predominant state of current farming but I believe it's doomed to failure for two obvious reasons..
1/ Petro chemical based fertilizers are increasingly expensive
2/ People are becoming more nutrition aware which is evident from the growing sales of organic produce.
The market is changing, consumers are wising up to the potential danger of accumulative exposure to chemicals and additives in foods.
Cheers
Nigel
We buy organic food and yearn for a world free of contaminated, genetically modified, heavily refined processed foods for our daughter to inherit.
suck because it can't happen
oh can't.. won't..why mince words NEVER EVER EVER
state of current farming but I believe it's doomed to failure for two obvious reasons..
it''s doomed to success for 3
1/ overpopulated planet
2/ uneducated/refuse to self educate apathetic population
3/ the almighty dollar
urine and feces are starting to come on line around the world but google "Milorganite" and read all the fuss
I've written a bunch on urine here, including calculating my yearly N production, but there are NO takers.
No interest, LOTS of disinterest, I can't remember a single positive comment here or ANYWHERE EVER in reference to urine as fertilizer. (from people I've talked toabout it)
All day long people post about "Where to buy fertilizer" and pay XXX the value of the actual chemicals involved, plus shipping.
Pee in a jug ? SACRILEGE!!!!
You had better flush that down thee toilet or you'll go blind !!! :ha:
real religious type of fervor on this subject from both sides
pesticides are worse yet
many of the people who are against them couldn't grow a pole bean if you gave it to them in a 3gal
they have no idea how store produce is grown, yet they eat it, WHILE protesting my suggestion to use THE SAME CHEMICAL ON THE SAME CROP FOR THE SAME PEST
"You're eating it right now" I tell them, and then we play this game where they insist "No I'm not!" and here we go....
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hnTmBjk-M0c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
rant off
ImperialExotics
10-01-2012, 08:08 PM
Unfortunately, there really isn't solid evidence that organic actually IS any better or friendlier to the environment.
Contrary to what most people believe, "organic" does not automatically mean "pesticide-free" or "chemical-free". In fact, under the laws of most states, organic farmers are allowed to use a wide variety of chemical sprays and powders on their crops.
So what does organic mean? It means that these pesticides, if used, must be derived from natural sources, not synthetically manufactured. Also, these pesticides must be applied using equipment that has not been used to apply any synthetic materials for the past three years, and the land being planted cannot have been treated with synthetic materials for that period either.
Most organic farmers (and even some conventional farmers, too) employ mechanical and cultural tools to help control pests. These include insect traps, careful crop selection (there are a growing number of disease-resistant varieties), and biological controls (such as predator insects and beneficial microorganisms).
Further, comparisons between the synthetic pesticides and organic pesticides have some eye opening facts. Unfortunately, these non-chemical methods do not always provide enough protection, and it's necessary to use chemical pesticides. How do organic pesticides compare with conventional pesticides?
A recent study compared the effectiveness of a rotenone-pyrethrin mixture versus a synthetic pesticide, imidan. Rotenone and pyrethrin are two common organic pesticides; imidan is considered a "soft" synthetic pesticide (i.e., designed to have a brief lifetime after application, and other traits that minimize unwanted effects). It was found that up to 7 applications of the rotenone- pyrethrin mixture were required to obtain the level of protection provided by 2 applications of imidan.
It seems unlikely that 7 applications of rotenone and pyrethrin are really better for the environment than 2 applications of imidan, especially when rotenone is extremely toxic to fish and other aquatic life.
It should be noted, however, that we don't know for certain which system is more harmful. This is because we do not look at organic pesticides the same way that we look at conventional pesticides. We don't know how long these organic pesticides persist in the environment, or the full extent of their effects.
When you look at lists of pesticides allowed in organic agriculture, you find warnings such as, "Use with caution. The toxicological effects of [organic pesticide X] are largely unknown," or "Its persistence in the soil is unknown." Again, researchers haven't bothered to study the effects of organic pesticides because it is assumed that "natural" chemicals are automatically safe.
Unfortunately, at this point in time it seems based on known facts, that the organic buzz is more placebo than reality, pending further study on the effects of the types of toxins that are used in organic farming, and the need to use such large volumes compared to 'synthetic' pesticides.
Add to that, organic is already very expensive to buy, costing substantially more than it's non organic brothers. Trying to scale that into mass production where organic pesticides need 3+ times as much application as synthetic pesticides will drive prices of organic foods out of the reach of the poor who are already struggling to eat.
That is great to champion the buy organic banner, but it isn't practical to feed the masses of hungry people on this planet. It's a great concept in theory, but it currently only works on a farmers market, low production level.
It's just too expensive to be practical.
venturabananas
10-01-2012, 11:02 PM
Excellent points Imperial. People have this impression that "organic" = good; and synthetic = bad. Some of the most toxic chemicals known to man are organic. Rotenone is used to kill fish in my line of work. You do NOT want to inhale this stuff. Educate yourself and decide which organics and which synthetics are least toxic and pose the least threat to your health and that of the environment. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as the organic product is always better. If you can farm commerically without using any chemicals, organic or otherwise, then my hat is off to you.
ImperialExotics
10-01-2012, 11:24 PM
FYI, I use a pesticide that is based on peppermint oil and other components that are safe to use around pets and people.
Kinda cool as the stuff melts bugs on contact.
Peppermint oil is very 'strong'.
ImperialExotics
10-01-2012, 11:28 PM
FYI, I once saw what had to have been one of the funniest taste tests EVER.
Basically it was organic vs. regular farmed bananas..........
what they did was to cut one regular grown banana in half, put it on two plates and mark one regular, and one organic.
then gauge the reactions of people taste testing.
So one woman takes a bite of the 'regular' banana, and spends the next 5 minutes complaining about what was wrong with it.
The tries the supposed 'organic' banana, and goes on abuot how much creamier and tastier the organic banana was compared to the 'regular' banana, how it was so noticeably different etc.
And she was eating the exact same banana in both tests.
Absolute comedy gold.
momoese
10-02-2012, 12:38 AM
Soil.
Soil.
red volcanic
Rotenone bad for fish?
Good for fishING !!!! :ha:
Try putting a net across a stream then pouring some Rotenone 1/2 mile or more upstream. (mix it with water in a bucket first)
Just be sure to get back to the net before it gets swamped with fish and torn loose!!
ORGANICALLY HARVESTED FISH :0519:
Nigel
I don't mean to be bashing your hopes for a better planet mate.
I want a better planet too.
BUT (here it comes) :drum:
"ORGANIC" seems to be a codeword for "I'm about to give you a lecture about how you (and everyone except me) are ruining the planet"
"ORGANIC" people buy insecticidal soap for $4 a liter at Walmart and when you suggest that they make their own for free with dish soap and water they protest because it wouldn't be "ORGANIC"
Any suggestion you make has to go through the "ORGANIC" filter where it's automatically BAD unless you can prove it's "ORGANIC".
Which of course is like having a debate with a 3yo about how many decimal places should be included when writing PI.
"When a man won't agree that 2+2=4, then there is no point debating him because the facts don't matter."
I will now cease to be off topic. :goteam:
How is the outlook on the subtropical coffee people?
momoese
10-02-2012, 10:10 AM
Nowhere in this thread has stewardship of the soil been mentioned as a benefit of growing organic crops.
PR-Giants
10-02-2012, 10:49 AM
I have found this thread very interesting and thanks to everyone for their input.
I decided only to use glyphosate salt on my farm, but I use it only once when planting in a new area. It is very difficult to clear a slope with 10'-15' tall grass and the glyphosate is simply to efficient at this task. I do not use any pesticides or synthetic fertilizers. I give my plants two options, make due or die. I plant several different varieties to see which copes the best, if none are successful I move on to a different plant.
I see bananas with large bunches growing in the wild everday without any human intervention. In Puerto Rico the weevil is by far the most devastating pest and I find weevils in areas that have never been planted before. We also have just about every known leaf disease throughout the island.
This is what has led me to grow ARH. I regularly use weevil infested planting material because it will get weevils at some point anyway. Weevils and leaf diseases do affect fruit filling, but with ARH the fruit will almost always be well above Grade A standards. My best guess is that every bunch photo I've ever posted was grown with weevils and BLS.
I don't know if my soil would even be considered soil, but it works for me and it continually improves.
I break it into smaller pieces with a 16 lb sledge and then add grass clippings and wood chips
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50570 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50546)
I have never tried to market my Horns as "Organic". and feel I don't need the crutch.
This has worked successfully for 15 years, but this is by no means a statement saying it will be successful tomorrow.
I don't want to jinx myself.
PR-Giants
10-02-2012, 10:55 AM
Best of LUCK Nigel, in whichever direction you choose.
momoese
10-02-2012, 11:00 AM
I've written a bunch on urine here, including calculating my yearly N production, but there are NO takers.
No interest, LOTS of disinterest, I can't remember a single positive comment here or ANYWHERE EVER in reference to urine as fertilizer. (from people I've talked toabout it)
I pee in my garden from time to time. Nothing wrong with it.
PR-Giants
10-02-2012, 11:21 AM
I hate to see the free Nitrogen being wasted and I pee anywhere on my farm, but would never want a tanker load of the stuff.
My only concern has been with the salt content, but in moderation I think it's great
What is in urine? (http://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/What_is_in_urine__63__/)
Gee Whiz: Human Urine Is Shown to Be an Effective Agricultural Fertilizer: Scientific American (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=human-urine-is-an-effective-fertilizer)
Narnia
10-02-2012, 02:16 PM
Nowhere in this thread has stewardship of the soil been mentioned as a benefit of growing organic crops.
Has anyone got a list of affordable natural l fertilisers ?
NigelHaslam
10-02-2012, 06:56 PM
Wow, thanks again everyone.. This is fantastic.. I'm learning so much.
I've long wondered about the safety and efficacy of using poo, oops 'biosoil' and, not being squeamish, agree wholeheartedly with G.W. that we should çlose the loop and stop flushing good fertilizer down the drain with gallons of highly purified, albeit chlorinated and fluoridated, water.
Imperial Exotics you have nailed a universal truth there.. just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good for you.. who would use raw uranium or plutonium to combat their weeds?
Lacking even the most basic chemistry, I find myself at a loss and rather put off by anything that has a distinctly chemical name.
Who would willingly add Sodium Chloride to their food but 'Salt' is fine.
Lots of westerners are put off by the idea of Monosodium Glutamate in Chinese cooking but the English translation of the chinese word for MSG is "Tasty".
I wonder if there isn't a reliable ie. not supported by Monsanto, online resource to demystify the various pesticidal substances, so we can make informed decisions on what to use?
Any ideas?
Nigel Haslam
PS. My recent research is pointing at Bamboo as a good potential crop for this region of Australia. It's becoming fashionable as a building material and it's strength and sustainability factors are very high. It sequesters 7 times the carbon as a rainforest tree.
NigelHaslam
10-02-2012, 06:59 PM
Has anyone got a list of affordable natural l fertilisers ?
Here's what I've just started experimenting with..
A Better Way to Fertilize Your Garden: Homemade Organic Fertilizer - Organic Gardening - MOTHER EARTH NEWS (http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/2006-06-01/A-Better-Way-to-Fertilize-Your-Garden.aspx)
I used coprameal in place of seedmeal because I figured coconut trees are very hardy and therefore the plantations wouldn't be hit with so much pesticide.
It works out pretty cheap.. almost all of the 25 KG bags (just over 50 lbs), cost about $25 bucks but, apart from the copra meal, one only uses a tiny fraction of the other ingredients. The most expensive ingredient is kelp meal.. but I can't remember of the top of my head how much it costs.
I've only just applied this to my garden so I've yet to see the results.
Cheers
Nigel
Sometimes my posts read like I'm angry, but I'd like you folks to superimpose a sarcastic comedian's tone, if you would be so kind.
I left out the part about the insecticidal soap lady in Walmart who, after being told she could make it with bath soap and water, asked, I kid you not...:drum: "Would it be ORGANIC?"
I dang near had a stroke right there.
Bath soap you know.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QwM5KpoPPrg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
can you be more specific than demistify ?
there is several weeks worth of reading available on most things including fate in soil/water/animals
municipal leaf waste has been researched as a large scale soil amendment for farmers
it was found to have elevated levels of heavy metals, but nothing drastic
I added 10 tonnes of yard leaf waste last year
there are some good N fixing plants like sunshine hemp, that's a good safe way to go
tree services sometimes haul their cuttings to the dump and pay to dispose
they are happy to find someone who lets them dump for free
I added 10 cubic yards of ground oak and pine last year
road crews often clean/enlarge/deepen roadside ditches
these ditches sometimes collect sediment, depending in the type of runoff the material removed can be quite rich (and quite free)
cabinetry or door manufacturers produce very fine millings of natural wood of MDFB
a local one uses urea formaldehyde as the glue in their wood so all the dust I get from there has 2%N SUUUUUUPER slow release :woohoonaner:
this stuff is more economical than regular sawdust because it's fine as flour and so has a similar density
around 40kg per bag and a pickup will fit 500kg pretty well
I was recently invited to have all I wanted but settled for hauling home around 3 tonnes LOL
PR Giants IIRC the Cl content of urine is 2%
muriate of potash is around 40%
you be lucky to get a tanker full
I just applied 25 gallons of 2 month old yesterday in expectation of 5 inches of rain this week. One gallon per plant at the base of the pstem, and water it in with a gallon or so from the hose because the ammonia content is high.
I have 8 flowers this year and I only started growing bananas July of last year.
NigelHaslam
10-02-2012, 08:51 PM
can you be more specific than demistify ?
I guess I'd like a primer on the differences between synthetic chemicals used in agriculture and the natural ie. those considered as organic.
Not a deep biological analysis but an overview for the layman, covering the different pesticides, their uses, applications, how they achieve their goal and any associated caveats, dangers etc. Similar to Imperial Exotics illuminating writings above but more comprehensive.
Also I'm interested in the practical issues with bio waste re-use, how to deal with the pathogens and render it useful and safe for fertilizing edible crops.
Stuff like this:-
Aussie scientist calls for human urine fertiliser - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-07-10/aussie-scientist-calls-for-human-urine-fertiliser/95480)
PR-Giants
10-02-2012, 10:00 PM
PR Giants IIRC the Cl content of urine is 2%
muriate of potash is around 40%
you be lucky to get a tanker full
I understand the point you are trying to make GW. In order use urine on a crop that is not salt tolerant, you first need a soil that drains well and my soil does not, so in my case a tanker load would be disastrous. In moderation it will work fine.
ImperialExotics
10-02-2012, 11:29 PM
I understand the point you are trying to make GW. In order use urine on a crop that is not salt tolerant, you first need a soil that drains well and my soil does not, so in my case a tanker load would be disastrous. In moderation it will work fine.
You could save the cost of a tanker load and just drink lots and lots of beer. At least then you'll get double the value for your money.
ImperialExotics
10-02-2012, 11:31 PM
Imperial Exotics you have nailed a universal truth there.. just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good for you.. who would use raw uranium or plutonium to combat their weeds?
wait a sec..you might be onto something here,
Nuke the weeds.
I'm sensing great entertainment value here...........................
momoese
10-03-2012, 12:30 AM
And then...
http://i46.tinypic.com/30k85qx.jpg
To be certified as biodynamic, a farm must first be certified organic.
When a farm is organically certified, it is inspected and evaluated by a third-party certifying agent on how well it meets organic standards. Basically, the farm must practice organic methods for at least three years. This includes objectives like choosing only all-natural (nonsynthetic) fertilizers and pesticides, using sustainable processes such as crop rotation and composting, and feeding livestock 100-percent organic feed, as well as treating animals humanely (no hormones or antibiotics).
venturabananas
10-03-2012, 12:38 AM
I guess I'd like a primer on the differences between synthetic chemicals used in agriculture and the natural ie. those considered as organic.
Not a deep biological analysis but an overview for the layman, covering the different pesticides, their uses, applications, how they achieve their goal and any associated caveats, dangers etc. Similar to Imperial Exotics illuminating writings above but more comprehensive.
I think you are hoping for something that is impossible. Each chemical, organic or not, has its own properties. To think the organic ones are fundamentally different in some uniform way, other than not being synthesized by humans, is, unfortunately, not true. You need to research the specific issues/chemicals/applications you are interested in. Organic does not equal safe. Botulinum toxin is 100% organic, and one of the most potent neurotoxins known to man.
momoese
10-03-2012, 12:43 AM
I think you are hoping for something that is impossible. Each chemical, organic or not, has its own properties. To think the organic ones are fundamentally different in some uniform way, other than not being synthesized by humans, is, unfortunately, not true. You need to research the specific issues/chemicals/applications you are interested in. Organic does not equal safe. Botulinum toxin is 100% organic, and one of the most potent neurotoxins known to man.
Organic does exclude some nasty bits like GMO's, synthetic ferts and pesticides. And speaking about BT...
New Study: Genetically Engineered Crops Drive up Pesticide Use | Pesticide Action Network (http://www.panna.org/new-study-genetically-engineered-crops-drive-pesticide-use)
venturabananas
10-03-2012, 01:21 AM
Organic does exclude some nasty bits like GMO's, synthetic ferts and pesticides. And speaking about BT...
New Study: Genetically Engineered Crops Drive up Pesticide Use | Pesticide Action Network (http://www.panna.org/new-study-genetically-engineered-crops-drive-pesticide-use)
You know I'm not opposed to organic. All the ferts and pesticides I've been using lately are organic, but I think we need to be realistic and thoughtful about the relative costs and benefits of "organic" versus not. The mantra "organic is good, synthetic is not" is far too oversimplistic to really be a useful way of addressing pressing issues of adequate food production for our overpopulated planet. For example, do you think it is better for the planet to harvest fish to grind up into "fish fertilizer" to grow plants, or should we instead eat the fish and use synthetic ferts to grow plants? Fertilizing plants with ground up animals is not sustainable, given the world's population.
And do you think a website for the "Pesticide Action Network" might be a wee bit biased?
More and more, we are will need to make hard choices that will force us to think carefully, rather than subscribing to simplistic philosophies, like "organic is good, man-made is bad."
momoese
10-03-2012, 01:33 AM
You know I'm not opposed to organic. All the ferts and pesticides I've been using lately are organic, but I think we need to be realistic and thoughtful about the relative costs and benefits of "organic" versus not. The mantra "organic is good, synthetic is not" is far too oversimplistic to really be a useful way of addressing pressing issues of adequate food production for our overpopulated planet. For example, do you think it is better for the planet to harvest fish to grind up into "fish fertilizer" to grow plants, or should we instead eat the fish and use synthetic ferts to grow plants? Fertilizing plants with ground up animals is not sustainable, given the world's population.
And do you think a website for the "Pesticide Action Network" might be a wee bit biased?
More and more, we are will need to make hard choices that will force us to think carefully, rather than subscribing to simplistic philosophies, like "organic is good, man-made is bad."
Facts are fact regardless where the info comes from. Don't kill the messenger!
Nature has grown food for ever without man's intervention. The only reason for man to intervene in money.
This propaganda about GM feeding the over populated starving world is total nonsense. We could feed the world organically but the huge multi national corporations would go under in the process. This has nothing to do with what's right for the planet or it's population.
Nature has grown food for ever without man's intervention. The only reason for man to intervene in money.
I like your posts Mitchel so don't take this too personally.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/nastyrasty/bsflag.gif
This propaganda about nature spontaneously producing food to feed large cities is total nonsense.
Nature rolls the dice. So YES nature created wheat. Selective breeding has produced our current cornucopia.
Have you ever seen a spontaneously germinated field of wheat?
Soy?
Corn?
Alfalfa?
Let's take that last one alfalfa.
Alfalfa in legume and therefore participates in symbiosis with N fixing bacterial. YAY we saved the world!!
NO!
Alfalfa removes K at a rate of 60lb/ton with 5-10 tonnes produced per acre.
SO we take our 100 acre field and let's say we have a decent yeild of 5 tonnes per acre.
100x5x60=30000 or 15 tonnes of K
Mitchel I would like you to suggest where and how to get 30,000lbs of potassium in an organic manner, in extremely rural areas.
It also needs to start availability within the first year, second at latest.
The field will only be tilled every three years for replanting so heavy topdressing is unacceptable in the off years.
Most of the time when you throw the ball to the organo-mantra folks they decide not to play.
Let's see if Mitchel will take a swing at this one.
I really do need an answer to this problem so others please chime in.
You could save the cost of a tanker load and just drink lots and lots of beer. At least then you'll get double the value for your money.
I see no reason NOT to get a second use from your beer, or all the crazy amount of protein we eat.
We did pay for it didin't we?
I decided only to use glyphosate salt on my farm, but I use it only once when planting in a new area. It is very difficult to clear a slope with 10'-15' tall grass and the glyphosate is simply to efficient at this task.
I have never tried to market my Horns as "Organic". and feel I don't need the crutch.
Fire is ORGANIC LOL
I think you hit the truth with the "crutch" comment.
Organic is largely a marketing ploy aimed at uneducated consumers.
What ignorant consumers?
Well how about the box of cotton candy with " TRANS FAT FREE !! " plastered on it?
who,what,why the heck would/should there be shortening in cotton candy?
trans fat bad ..... trans fat FREE is good..... cotton candy is trans fat free.....so......cotton candy is good
there is clearly a lack of critical thinking skills being taught in our schools
SON OF A B I just realized I continue to be off topic.........
momoese
10-03-2012, 10:03 AM
GW, did you see the post that PR posted about the roadside bananas growing nice bunches without any human intervention? That's what I'm talking about. The planet has been making food without scientists and their chemical cocktails for ever.
Obviously to grow huge fields of food we have to do it, that's not my point. My point is that we can grow enough food organically or conventionally to feed the worlds population without using GMO's. We do not need to play god in this way. Hybridizing and natural selection are one thing, gene splicing in order to sell massive amounts of roundup etc is another.
venturabananas
10-03-2012, 10:09 AM
Facts are fact regardless where the info comes from. Don't kill the messenger!
Nature has grown food for ever without man's intervention. The only reason for man to intervene in money.
This propaganda about GM feeding the over populated starving world is total nonsense. We could feed the world organically but the huge multi national corporations would go under in the process. This has nothing to do with what's right for the planet or it's population.
Being someone who writes "facts" -- that is publishing peer-reviewed scientific papers like the one cited -- I can tell you that selective reporting of these papers is certainly biased, and almost the same as lying.
"Nature" (are we not part of nature?) has always grown food -- and the amount of food grown by nature without human intervention could never support the current human population. For thousands of years we have "artificially" selected for high-yielding versions of plants and animals, we have created productive hybrids (the edible bananas), etc. I'm not talking about GM, I'm talking about old fashioned plant breeding and artificial selection, which humans have done for 10,000 years, at a minimum. Using "organic" methods to grow even "heirloom" varieties is nothing like "nature feeding the world". It is humans modifying the environment and the genetic makeup (via selection of favored genotypes) of plants and animals to increase food production. How many people do you think you can feed with the "natural" seeded version of Musa acuminata grown in the wild with no human intervention versus the artificially selected parthenocarpic Cavendish, Mona Lisa, Nino, Gros Michelle versions of it, carefully fertilized, irrigated, etc.?
momoese
10-03-2012, 10:22 AM
Being someone who writes "facts" -- that is publishing peer-reviewed scientific papers like the one cited -- I can tell you that selective reporting of these papers is certainly biased, and almost the same as lying.
"Nature" (are we not part of nature?) has always grown food -- and the amount of food grown by nature without human intervention could never support the current human population. For thousands of years we have "artificially" selected for high-yielding versions of plants and animals, we have created productive hybrids (the edible bananas), etc. I'm not talking about GM, I'm talking about old fashioned plant breeding and artificial selection, which humans have done for 10,000 years, at a minimum. Using "organic" methods to grow even "heirloom" varieties is nothing like "nature feeding the world". It is humans modifying the environment and the genetic makeup (via selection of favored genotypes) of plants and animals to increase food production. How many people do you think you can feed with the "natural" seeded version of Musa acuminata grown in the wild with no human intervention versus the artificially selected parthenocarpic Cavendish, Mona Lisa, Nino, Gros Michelle versions of it, carefully fertilized, irrigated, etc.?
You must have been typing while I posted above you. Look up there ^
venturabananas
10-03-2012, 10:29 AM
Being someone who writes "facts" -- that is publishing peer-reviewed scientific papers like the one cited -- I can tell you that selective reporting of these papers is certainly biased, and almost the same as lying.
Oh, now having looked at the study Mitchel mentioned, it appears that it isn't even peer-reviewed, so doesn't meet the minimum standard for good science. That's not to say the conclusions in it are wrong, simply that it hasn't had to face the scrutiny of other experts on the subject.
Moreover, the impression that one might get from the study is that GM crops require use of more pesticides. The impression would be caused by a misinterpretation of the statistics. The facts as stated are that people growing GM crops are now using more pesticides than were people growing crops in the past. There's any number of causes for that pattern, e.g., pesticides got cheaper, new pests showed up, etc., and it may have nothing to do with differences attributable to the GM crops per se.
momoese
10-03-2012, 10:31 AM
Being someone who writes "facts" -- that is publishing peer-reviewed scientific papers like the one cited -- I can tell you that selective reporting of these papers is certainly biased, and almost the same as lying.
So do you dispute the numbers in the report? Should we believe what the seller of the chemicals reports? :ha:
venturabananas
10-03-2012, 10:36 AM
You must have been typing while I posted above you. Look up there ^
I was.
But back to the original statement: "Organic does exclude some nasty bits like GMO's, synthetic ferts and pesticides." I'm not convinced that these things are inherently any more nasty than "organic" equivalents. And to make that decision, you need to look at each, say, organic vs synthetic pesticide to determine which is more toxic, more environmentally persistent, etc., rather than apply a blanket statement along the lines of "organic is good, man-made is bad."
venturabananas
10-03-2012, 10:39 AM
So do you dispute the numbers in the report? Should we believe what the seller of the chemicals reports? :ha:
No, I don't dispute the numbers. I question how they are interpreted. That's one of the things peer-review is for -- to evaluate whether the interpretation of the data is justified, or the data could be better explained by another interpretation?
momoese
10-03-2012, 10:48 AM
I was.
But back to the original statement: "Organic does exclude some nasty bits like GMO's, synthetic ferts and pesticides." I'm not convinced that these things are inherently any more nasty than "organic" equivalents. And to make that decision, you need to look at each, say, organic vs synthetic pesticide to determine which is more toxic, more environmentally persistent, etc., rather than apply a blanket statement along the lines of "organic is good, man-made is bad."
We have had a very long study of "organic" foods called the human civilization. Seems it is safe to eat providing you avoid the the plants and animals that will make you sick or kill you. Yes you need to know which are which. We have figured this out over time.
On the other hand there has been only one "long term" study of GMO and Round-up. The results were not so great.
ScienceDirect.com - Food and Chemical Toxicology - Long term toxicity of a Roundup herbicide and a Roundup-tolerant genetically modified maize (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691512005637)
sunfish
10-03-2012, 10:54 AM
If I was thinking of buying a banana farm I would get advice from other banana farmers/commercial growers :)
P.S. organic or non organic
momoese
10-03-2012, 10:59 AM
If I was thinking of buying a banana farm I would get advice from other banana farmers/commercial growers :)
P.S. organic or non organic
That would be wise and there are a few here but they rarely post.
venturabananas
10-03-2012, 11:35 AM
We have had a very long study of "organic" foods called the human civilization. Seems it is safe to eat providing you avoid the the plants and animals that will make you sick or kill you. Yes you need to know which are which. We have figured this out over time.
On the other hand there has been only one "long term" study of GMO and Round-up. The results were not so great.
ScienceDirect.com - Food and Chemical Toxicology - Long term toxicity of a Roundup herbicide and a Roundup-tolerant genetically modified maize (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691512005637)
That is an interesting and disturbing study. (And it's published in a peer-reviewed journal.) Thanks for pointing it out. Now we need more of them to see if this a general and repeatable result.
As to your first point, how exactly has that study gone, human civilization as a study of organic foods? Would you like to compare average human lifespan, for example, between the period prior to use of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides with life-span during their use? I can assure you that you would find life span is higher during the period we've been using those synthetics. Now, you would rightly argue that at least some, if not all, of that difference is due to improvements in medicine between those two periods, but that is the problem with "before-after" comparisons. They are always confounded, like the first study (GMs and pesticide use) you mentioned. But more seriously, you could probably directly attribute increased average human height over the last century to better nutrition, which has in part gone hand in hand with "industrial agriculture". Would you have let the Irish potato famine happen if you could have avoided it by using synthetic fungicides? Of course not. It's just not as simple as "we were fine before we started using these man-made products." We were not fine. We are not fine now -- we've solved some of the older problems and created new ones. Is that an acceptable tradeoff? I don't know. It's complicated. Let's be realistic and accept that it is complicated and "organic" will not solve all the world's food problems. Nor will "synthetic", "man-made", or "GM".
sunfish
10-03-2012, 11:49 AM
If we are to be truly organic /natural we should not use any pesticides organic or others. The bugs and diseases should be left to do what they do naturally. We should not interfere with Mother Nature. :)
momoese
10-03-2012, 11:58 AM
That is an interesting and disturbing study. (And it's published in a peer-reviewed journal.) Thanks for pointing it out. Now we need more of them to see if this a general and repeatable result.
And before anyone points out that some scientists have attacked the study, let's take a look at who they are!
How independent is the Science Media Centre and its experts? (http://www.gmwatch.org/latest-listing/51-2012/14224-how-independent-is-the-science-media-centre-and-its-experts)
As to your first point, how exactly has that study gone, human civilization as a study of organic foods? Would you like to compare average human lifespan, for example, between the period prior to use of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides with life-span during their use? I can assure you that you would find life span is higher during the period we've been using those synthetics. Now, you would rightly argue that at least some, if not all, of that difference is due to improvements in medicine between those two periods, but that is the problem with "before-after" comparisons. They are always confounded, like the first study (GMs and pesticide use) you mentioned. But more seriously, you could probably directly attribute increased average human height over the last century to better nutrition, which has in part gone hand in hand with "industrial agriculture". Would you have let the Irish potato famine happen if you could have avoided it by using synthetic fungicides? Of course not. It's just not as simple as "we were fine before we started using these man-made products." We were not fine. We are not fine now -- we've solved some of the older problems and created new ones. Is that an acceptable tradeoff? I don't know. It's complicated. Let's be realistic and accept that it is complicated and "organic" will not solve all the world's food problems. Nor will "synthetic", "man-made", or "GM".
Yes lots of factors. Average human height is probably a mating issue.
I disagree that we were not fine. We made it here didn't we? We made it to the age of science in food didn't we?
Testing is needed, lots of it. FDA approving this stuff before any long term testing is reckless to say the least. It's all about money and power.
ImperialExotics
10-03-2012, 06:04 PM
that's all well and fine that plants have grown for millions of years without our help, but it's an irrelevant argument.
corn, bananas, wheat or whatever isn't going to spontaneously grow in fields ready for harvest in quantities capable of feeding billions of people. Sorry.
And large production attracts lots of pests.
So are the deaths of millions just to claim an organic victory worth the cost????? really?
Also, debunking articles based on the 'experts' being pro or con is as stupid as the yes it is, no it isn't John Cleese skit.
pssst..... organic crowds are going to use the most rabid organic fanatics to push their point of view, just like the GM side is going to do.
And for the record, I'm not against organics, but come on, at least offer a solution, not pontificate on how others are ruining the planet.
venturabananas
10-03-2012, 06:25 PM
Yes lots of factors. Average human height is probably a mating issue.
I disagree that we were not fine. We made it here didn't we? We made it to the age of science in food didn't we?
Testing is needed, lots of it. FDA approving this stuff before any long term testing is reckless to say the least. It's all about money and power.
Here is a good summary of the scientific view of why human height has increased: improved childhood nutrition. Note that improved nutrition corresponds with less natural ways growing plant and animal crops over the last couple of hundred years.
Why are we getting taller as a species?: Scientific American (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-are-we-getting-taller)
Well, we were fine historically if you view widespread famine and disease that killed relatively large portions of the population as "fine". The population biologist in me wants to say that we need more famine and disease to solve the overpopulation problem, but I can't really maintain that heartless outlook when I think about the people involved, rather than the numbers of people.
I fully support adequate testing of new agricultural products, etc.
For some it is about money and power, but even in the big, money making agribusiness companies, I think you would find many who genuinely care about feeding the world in a sustainable way.
momoese
10-03-2012, 09:23 PM
For some it is about money and power, but even in the big, money making agribusiness companies, I think you would find many who genuinely care about feeding the world in a sustainable way.
I wish I had your hope in humanity.
save the planet KILL YOURSELF
breeding caused the increase in height? LOL
you really think that children outgrowing their grandparents is breeding?
so where are all the unsatisfied short women hanging out?
GW, did you see the post that PR posted about the roadside bananas growing nice bunches without any human intervention? That's what I'm talking about. The planet has been making food without scientists and their chemical cocktails for ever.
yeah bro where's my 30,000 pounds of organic K ?
as I predicted the question was dodged
Irish Potato Famine and synthetic fungicides.... nuff said.....
momoese
10-03-2012, 11:58 PM
save the planet KILL YOURSELF
GW, if this was directed at me I will advise you that this is against the site rules.
BTW, who are you, why are you here, where do you live, what plants are you growing?(Edit, I see your list on your profile, nice list!) A little profile info would be nice from someone talking that kind of s h i t.
breeding caused the increase in height? LOL
you really think that children outgrowing their grandparents is breeding?
so where are all the unsatisfied short women hanging out?
Yeah, it's really inconceivable that that people saw taller people as supreme and bred that way, or that synthetic growth hormones had any play in it, or many other causes. I mean seriously, do you want me to write a theseus on it?
yeah bro where's my 30,000 pounds of organic K ?
as I predicted the question was dodged
So now I'm your "Bro" after you tell me to kill myself? :ha:
Potassium (K) is the most natural major plant food because potassium salts (potassium chloride, sulphate, nitrate etc.) are found so abundantly and so widely distributed in nature. In soils and plants these salts, which are all water soluble, separate into the potash cation K+ and the relevant anion Cl-, S04--, N03- etc. Potash in manures is also mainly (70-90%) in water soluble form with a small amount bound into the organic material which is released into the soil solution as the organic matter is mineralised. Potash from manures thus operates in the K cycle shown below in an identical manner to fertilizer potash and there is no reason to distinguish between these materials in terms of K supply. Potassium fertilizers are not associated with any environmental or health concerns. None of the forms of these materials provide any harmful effects, unless like any substance, they are used in excess
BigBananaBoy
10-04-2012, 12:24 AM
GW, if this was directed at me I will advise you that this is against the site rules.
BTW, who are you, why are you here, where do you live, what plants are you growing?(Edit, I see your list on your profile, nice list!) A little profile info would be nice from someone talking that kind of s h i t.
Yeah, it's really inconceivable that that people saw taller people as supreme and bred that way, or that synthetic growth hormones had any play in it, or many other causes. I mean seriously, do you want me to write a theseus on it?
So now I'm your "Bro" after you tell me to kill myself? :ha:
Potassium (K) is the most natural major plant food because potassium salts (potassium chloride, sulphate, nitrate etc.) are found so abundantly and so widely distributed in nature. In soils and plants these salts, which are all water soluble, separate into the potash cation K+ and the relevant anion Cl-, S04--, N03- etc. Potash in manures is also mainly (70-90%) in water soluble form with a small amount bound into the organic material which is released into the soil solution as the organic matter is mineralised. Potash from manures thus operates in the K cycle shown below in an identical manner to fertilizer potash and there is no reason to distinguish between these materials in terms of K supply. Potassium fertilizers are not associated with any environmental or health concerns. None of the forms of these materials provide any harmful effects, unless like any substance, they are used in excess
Mitchel You're my bro too you organic tree hugger you!! and don't kill yourself I will have no one to send my Monsanto corn to. :ha: Talk soon
momoese
10-04-2012, 12:28 AM
Mitchel You're my bro too you organic tree hugger you!! and don't kill yourself I will have no one to send my Monsanto corn to. :ha: Talk soon
Ok slim Tony! :ha:
NigelHaslam
10-04-2012, 12:40 AM
The wonderful thing about this thread is that, buried in among the entrenched opinions, haphazard theories and thinly veiled threats are heaps of fascinating facts.
Of course those commercial operators who use synthetic pesticides are going to believe their way is the ONLY way.. their very livelyhoods depend on it.
The manufacturers of pesticides and GM crops are claiming it's the only way to feed the world but their aggressive legal and sales practices, backed by US government foreign policy look less about feeding the world and more about profit, market share and control.
And organic proponents, distrustful of large, lawyer driven multinational corporations, want to believe there is another way.
In the meantime the big chemical experiment continues and it's a challenge to avoid it, because labeling of GM produce is limited (in Australia at least), to raw unprocessed goods.
The only easy way to avoid GM, is to buy certified organic produce because GM is totally excluded.
Fortunately, from my organic perspective, more and more people are becoming aware of the dirty aspects of commercial agriculture and livestock and choosing to vote, with their wallets, against the synthetic pesticide and gene-spliced model in favor of the organic one - as evidenced by the increasing shelf space devoted to organic and free range produce in supermarkets.
Just thought I'd better chip in my two cents.
Please keep it up.. I'm loving this forum, it's really bananas!
Nigel
Narnia
10-04-2012, 08:49 AM
GW the video you posted is CATEGORICALLY offensive.
Hi Nigel.
I'm glad you are still reading this thread. I'd like to apologize for my off topic nature. It's sometimes hard to talk about one thing without mentioning the other.
Hopefully soon we can veer back into soil amendments to make better use of your synthetic fertilizer, which won't leach if enough organic material is added and CEC is raised.
I believe this will become more popular with large scale farmers in the near future.
GW, if this was directed at me I will advise you that this is against the site rules.
Killing yourself is'nt just against the site rules LOL
It is a joke and I thought everyone had heard of this.
I don't subscribe to many subcultural fanatical beliefs but recognize a citizen having their voice heard.
Use the search.
"Korda described the project as reflecting his contempt for and frustration with the profound ugliness of the modern industrial world." Church of Euthanasia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Euthanasia)
Voluntary Human Extinction Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movement)
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ft_N-skpXRs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
BTW, who are you, why are you here, where do you live, what plants are you growing?(Edit, I see your list on your profile, nice list!) A little profile info would be nice from someone talking that kind of s h i t.
I don't really want to have a long chat about myself but since it's become clear I'm not being understood, I'll try and explain more.
I'm a pragmatist who likes to crack jokes because the truth is often "softer" that way.
I'm from the third Earth shot in that video.
My current ZIP is in my location on your screen right now.
That is only part of my list. (adding Latin names to simplify searching threw me for a loop)
I'm growing, for profit, bananas,sapodilla, lychee, longan, pina, and other things aimed at immigrant populations in my area whose needs are only supplied by distant growers.
see this post http://www.bananas.org/f2/advice-sought-novice-buying-banana-farm-16713.html#post205571
I've only been a landowner 3 years so it's early in my tropical farming career.
I am entirely self educated.
My neighborhood was built on old lake bed and so I have sandy/silt/loamy soil with a hint of clay. Richness of soil was a major factor in the purchase of a house.
I'm currently clearing 1/2 or 3/4 acre down the street in a semi swamp, where I was advised by the landowner to "Kill the vines and plant whatever you want and give me some".
He has about 2.5 acres and I hope to convince him to use it all.
I am opposed to buying and maintaining land as fallow or mixed grass/weeds.
I am opposed to land owners growing in containers.
I am in favor of amending the soil so that conatiner growing becomes pointless.
I am in favor of landowners planting for food security.
I am in favor of the spouse in the lowest paying job taking their children out of daycare and planting the largest garden possible while raising their own children.
I reduce/reuse/recycle.
I mean seriously, do you want me to write a theseus on it?
Maybe.
I will be quite happy when Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) is universally known and accepted.
So now I'm your "Bro" after you tell me to kill myself? :ha:
I'll see your HA and raise you $20 sir !
We are all brothers and sisters. There is not THAT much genetic diversity in any species.
All animals are essentially the same such as the books in the library are all the same, while still being wildly diverse.
Learning, communication, and emotion are all proven in animals yet they have little if any status. We can clearly see that the construction is very similar or identical, yet hold ourselves superior over all.
The eagle has an eye, as I have an eye, as the frog has an eye.
"Life at All Costs" mentality is employed in regard to humans, and we sacrifice billions of animals lives like they never existed.
We are all brothers, all of the creatures of earth.
[/QUOTE]
REALITY CHECK :ha:
I'm a weightlifter and have personally consumed 3 chickens, 36 potential baby chickens, and 3 gals of milk THIS WEEK, all produced under unnatural conditions at the expense of the planet and the lives and freedoms of animals.
I'm also behind on my protein for the week. :ha:
Bananas provide potassium, a gluten free source of carbs (because I seem to have a problem with wheat or something on/in the wheat) and I swear this is true... 5 bananas a day increases my feeling of well being.
GW the video you posted is CATEGORICALLY offensive.
Well thank you for causing me to read the rules and I will agree that the vid is against them.
I am on my way to edit it from the post now.
I am not here to discuss religion and that was an oversight. My bad.
I just posted that because he thought I meant him.
I also posted a couple of links to further verify that this was a broader statement made by others and not ad homenim attack.
I also made a HUGE post in the interest of satiating Mitchel who was needlessly offended by my poorly formatted post.
Hopefully Momose is cool and we can get back to dirt.
Nigel
I'll tell you one thing you might watch carefully is water table/ groundwater PH, irrigation practices, and microclimates.
These are sometimes overlooked issues.
One that I have unintentionally be victim to is the issue of dissolved carbonates in irrigation water leading to the formation of calcareous soil.
I knew little about soil and water chemistry a few years ago and made the mistake of irrigating with 8.5vPH water with high dissolved carbonates.
I killed at least half of my container plants before I became aware of my mistake.
venturabananas
10-04-2012, 11:03 AM
Nigel,
If you are still considering growing bananas and have not yet read Dan Koeppel's book "Banana: The Fate of the Fruit That Changed the World", you should.
Among the myriad interesting points he makes is that the organic bananas in supermarkets (at least in the US) are almost certainly worse for the environment than the "traditional" bananas. This is because of how they are farmed: a plot of rainforest in Latin America is cleared, bananas are planted, synthetic pesticides and ferts are not used, and after a couple or a few years disease are so rampant in the plot that they plow it under and move on to the next plot of rainforest that they clear. Dan's take is that currently, if you are buying bananas in the supermarket in the US, it is more environmentally responsible to choose the non-organic ones.
This is not to say that organic bananas could not be grown in a more responsible way. They could. But the big agri-businesses that put bananas on supermarket shelves in many parts of the world are not doing so currently.
Save the rainforest: grow you own bananas!
momoese
10-04-2012, 03:14 PM
Well thanks for the explanation.
Still not sure how this plays into the thread.
Maybe.
I will be quite happy when Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) is universally known and accepted.
NigelHaslam
10-04-2012, 08:19 PM
Nigel,
Dan's take is that currently, if you are buying bananas in the supermarket in the US, it is more environmentally responsible to choose the non-organic ones.
This is not to say that organic bananas could not be grown in a more responsible way. They could. But the big agri-businesses that put bananas on supermarket shelves in many parts of the world are not doing so currently.
Save the rainforest: grow you own bananas!
A perfect example of how the world is heading for bankruptcy in economical, moral and ethical terms; big business caring only for the bottom line.
I guess the only way we can be sure is to grow our own. Fortunately I have awoken to the desire to do just that, hence the drive for self learning which brings me here. My back yard veggie garden is far from productive but, far more valuable than the produce is instilling the familiarity with the process into my 5 year old daughter. I was raised in a small town and my ignorance in terms of plant identification and husbandry is shocking.
What few veggies I have managed to grow have proven the tastiest I've ever had. This morning I had a strawberry the like of which I've never had before. Perhaps this is because it had ripened naturally and not been picked green with a view to transportation and storage? Whatever.. it was an amazing flavour and extra-satisfying because I had grown it, without any pesticides.
Cheers
Nigel
cincinnana
10-04-2012, 08:24 PM
.............:lurk: ...............
Great opines on this thread!!!!
This is exactly what forums are about .
This is what we are about.
Opinions, Beliefs, Resolution , Common Ground, Agree to Disagree or Whatever.
Great minds here throwing it down !!!
I listen and I learn !!
WE ALL DO !!
On a lighter note check out my thread :
I AM GOING TO BUY A ZOO.:ha:
NigelHaslam
10-04-2012, 08:27 PM
I'll tell you one thing you might watch carefully is water table/ groundwater PH, irrigation practices, and microclimates.
These are sometimes overlooked issues.
One that I have unintentionally be victim to is the issue of dissolved carbonates in irrigation water leading to the formation of calcareous soil.
I knew little about soil and water chemistry a few years ago and made the mistake of irrigating with 8.5vPH water with high dissolved carbonates.
I killed at least half of my container plants before I became aware of my mistake.
This is GOLD.. I have become aware that the coastal regions of Australia (where the vast majority of the population live), have an Acid Sulphate soil problem.
The local council have surveyed the area and prepared a map which one can download.
I'll be sure and check soil and water table too.
Thanks heaps G.W.
Nigel
NigelHaslam
10-04-2012, 08:35 PM
While discussing this thread with a friend I learned about this Open Source Ecology project.
Category:Food and Agriculture - Open Source Ecology (http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Category:Food_and_Agriculture)
And a TED talk by the guy who started the movement..
Marcin Jakubowski: Open-sourced blueprints for civilization | Video on TED.com (http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski.html)
For those unfamiliar with the term Open source
"In production and development, open source is a philosophy, or pragmatic methodology that promotes free redistribution and access to an end product's design and implementation details".
I've long thought that Open Source is the kind of revolutionary social approach that the world needed but hadn't considered how it could make the leap from the digital world into the physical.
Hope this may be of interest
Nigel
NigelHaslam
10-04-2012, 09:43 PM
I may be wandering too far off topic here but I just read this article which, to me, may be a good explanation of how we got into this situation where 'regular commercial farmers' "have to" use pesticides and GM crops in order to feed the world's population.
Link to the article..
The USA is headed for a fiscal cliff | Your Medieval Future (http://www.yourmedievalfuture.com/?p=636)
The article itself..
The USA is headed for a fiscal cliff
13 September 2012
Norman Pagett writes:
But this is more than just a fiscal cliff for the USA, it is a financial crisis pushing the industrial world over a cliff.
The problem isn’t economic, or political, it is one of denial of reality, the refusal to face the reality that the American dream has turned into a nightmare. There is no longer enough cheap energy to power the engines of world industry, and borrowing money into infinity isn’t going to refill the oilwells.
Politicians and economists try to sell the notion that money circulation drives the economy, but we do not live in a money-economy. Our infrastructure is a dynamic of energy input. Or to be more specific, a dynamic of energy surplus because all forms of energy are essentially the same thing.
10,000 years ago the first farmers grew enough food (energy) to support themselves, as their farming skills improved they found they had a little left over which might have paid for someone to guard it, or a holy man to pray over it. How the excess was used is irrelevant, it was surplus energy and became a trading medium for exchange of skills; using it for other than food meant that energy could be tokenised. The soldier needed weapons, the holy man needed a house of worship, neither could be paid for unless there was a surplus of food-energy to do so. Money is still used to trade skills.
We had created an ‘economy’, because while the soldier and the priest could be paid with bushels of corn, it was easier to tokenise the transaction, and convert energy into money, then sustain the value of money by constantly producing more energy.
Now fast forward 10,000 years, and we’re still locked into that same trading system, but now it’s on steroids. 250 years ago we learned how to extract the energy from 200 million years worth of fossilised sunlight. We invented the steam engine, and dug coal oil and gas out of the ground as fast as we could, congratulating ourselves on our ingenuity. The more we dug up, the more ‘wealth’ we had, the faster we burned it, so our growth increased. Cheap fossil fuel energy drove our machines, vastly increased our food-energy supplies and boosted our population by an extra 6 billion who wouldn’t otherwise be here.
But we have been burning a finite energy source. Just the same as taking out a bank loan and convincing ourselves we are rich. We are not. We are living on borrowed time and money.
If we don’t maintain energy input, our economic system will collapse.
Which is where we’re at right now: we are trying to maintain a cheap-energy economy using expensive energy. In 1998 oil was under $12 a barrel, 10 years later it hit $147. At that point the world economy crashed because we tried to sustain a cheap energy economy using expensive energy.
This is the reality our politicians refuse to acknowledge. Without cheap oil we do not have an economy, and no amount of wish-politics and wish-economics is going to refill the oilwells and bring back $2 gas. Unfortunately what became the American Dream for a few became a nightmare for the rest. Our sources of cheap energy are gone, but our delusions remain. Its wealth was unevenly distributed, those on the prosperity ladder have climbed higher, while those at the bottom are fighting against the rising tide of poverty and despair because the cheap energy that gave everyone a glimpse of prosperity has now become too expensive to support our lifestyle, which is vanishing into our future like the mirage it always was.
momoese
10-04-2012, 10:05 PM
Well if this thread is going that far off the rail I'll throw this in.
WASTE (http://www.tristramstuart.co.uk/default.html)
ImperialExotics
10-04-2012, 10:58 PM
Fortunately, from my organic perspective, more and more people are becoming aware of the dirty aspects of commercial agriculture and livestock and choosing to vote, with their wallets, against the synthetic pesticide and gene-spliced model in favor of the organic one - as evidenced by the increasing shelf space devoted to organic and free range produce in supermarkets.
Sorry, but the context above 'dirty aspects of commercial agriculture' is a highly biased remark and not very objective.
The major trend I see from the proponents of organic is that there is some undercurrent of evil plot the likes of which would make Prof. Doofenschmirtz proud.
There are no board rooms filled with cigar smoke with evil villains wringing their hands and hatching evil plots.
Based on the kinds of rhetoric I hear frequently from various hippies I know, the organic crowd isn't making themselves look like 'informed' buyers, and frankly they seem to be among the least informed individuals I have ever listened to.
I asked a number of people what the big deal about organic fruits and vegetables were, and every single person said they didn't use any pesticides of any kind and they tasted far better than regular crops.
How can someone be an 'informed consumer' when they don't understand or know ANYTHING at all about the subject?
While I do not agree with the strong arm tactics of the GM manufacturers though, but they do have a right to protect their interests, and sorry to break it to people here who don't comprehend this, scientists cost a lot of money, they get really nice paychecks. Hundreds of them on a payroll and years of research cost a lot of money.
And I'm pretty sure that even the biggest of hippies would sure want to protect their rights if they created something....
I did read about a genetics project that was going to give away their results for free, just to counter the Monsanto Nazis and their heavy handed threats to farmers who did nothing wrong.
But again I'll ask, where are the organic solutions for LARGE SCALE farming? unless organics can mass produce massive crops, it's a novelty at best, suited for the Trustifarians who shop at whole foods market and bitch on their blogs about everything.
I had never heard of acid sulphate soil. PASS ASS AASS etc
What are acid sulfate soils? (Department of Environment and Resource Management) (http://www.derm.qld.gov.au/land/ass/what_are_ass.html)
I seems there aren't any problems unless it's excavated?
What few veggies I have managed to grow have proven the tastiest I've ever had. This morning I had a strawberry the like of which I've never had before. Perhaps this is because it had ripened naturally and not been picked green with a view to transportation and storage? Whatever.. it was an amazing flavour and extra-satisfying because I had grown it, without any pesticides.
You must try growing pineapples.
They are easy to grow, drought tolerant, shade tolerant.
They enjoy high levels of fertilizer, half a bucket of poop per plant. (urea and SOP foliar sprays at my house)
The fertilizer ratio is nearly identical to bananas so they make a good natural intercrop.
There is no comparison between store and home grown.
With proper fertilization they grow as big as your head, orange all the way to the top, and the SMELL !!
Oh the delicious fragrance fills the house so that people will stop just inside the door to ask what it is.
They never believe it's a single pineapple until I show them (which I have stopped doing because they always want to eat it)
One of the coolest parts is the planting density. Roughly one plant every foot makes good use of available space.
I currently have 90 pineapple plants intercropped in a space that only fits 5 bananas. !!!
Much better use of space.
I no longer purchase pineapples at the store as there have been several instances of "Severe Gastrointestinal Disturbances" as result of ingestion. Not every pineapple, but not every raw hamburger gives you food poison either.
I make one (chlorothalonil dip) fungicide application at planting to keep tops and slips from rotting.
I monitor for ants and apply Fipronil laced bait when they arrive. I have a tamperproof rodent bait station in the patch. There is a very serious looking pitbull chained immediately adjacent. I have two live traps set at all times, but don't let the name fool you LOL.
It isn't ORGANIC, and I won't be cutting into Central America's market share, but at least my colon is safer.
But again I'll ask, where are the organic solutions for LARGE SCALE farming? unless organics can mass produce massive crops, it's a novelty at best.
Exactly.
NOVELTY
You are also right about the hippies making themselves objectionable in general.
where's my 30,000 pounds of organic sustainable K bro?
momoese
10-04-2012, 11:12 PM
I had never heard of acid sulphate soil. PASS ASS AASS etc
What are acid sulfate soils? (Department of Environment and Resource Management) (http://www.derm.qld.gov.au/land/ass/what_are_ass.html)
I seems there aren't any problems unless it's excavated?
You must try growing pineapples.
They are easy to grow, drought tolerant, shade tolerant.
They enjoy high levels of fertilizer, half a bucket of poop per plant. (urea and SOP foliar sprays at my house)
The fertilizer ratio is nearly identical to bananas so they make a good natural intercrop.
There is no comparison between store and home grown.
With proper fertilization they grow as big as your head, orange all the way to the top, and the SMELL !!
Oh the delicious fragrance fills the house so that people will stop just inside the door to ask what it is.
They never believe it's a single pineapple until I show them (which I have stopped doing because they always want to eat it)
One of the coolest parts is the planting density. Roughly one plant every foot makes good use of available space.
I currently have 90 pineapple plants intercropped in a space that only fits 5 bananas. !!!
Much better use of space.
X 2, only I don't feed mine much. Best fruit I've ever smelled or eaten is my home grown Smooth Cayenne Pineapple. A real treat!
momoese
10-04-2012, 11:20 PM
While I do not agree with the strong arm tactics of the GM manufacturers though, but they do have a right to protect their interests, and sorry to break it to people here who don't comprehend this, scientists cost a lot of money, they get really nice paychecks. Hundreds of them on a payroll and years of research cost a lot of money.
Shame that this is how they earn a living, there must be better ways to use their skills. GM is not doing anything to save the world or the hungry people from starving. It's just making the biotech and chemical corps rich and powerful.
X 2, only I don't feed mine much. Best fruit I've ever smelled or eaten is my home grown Smooth Cayenne Pineapple. A real treat!
Adding K will reduce "Internal Browning".
I have seen this in underfed fruits.
I'm at about half Smooth Cayenne and half MD2.
Based on slip production I should have 300+ plants within 2 years.
momoese
10-05-2012, 12:02 AM
Adding K will reduce "Internal Browning".
I have seen this in underfed fruits.
I'm at about half Smooth Cayenne and half MD2.
Based on slip production I should have 300+ plants within 2 years.
I haven't experience any internal browning yet. I feed a general purpose organic plant food (EB Stone) once a year plus whatever Mango leaves/flowers and grass clippings end up composting on the ground between the lava rocks. There is some dog urine as well. I fed some chicken manure one year and lost most of my mangos after the fruit set. Big mistake. This year is the 6th ratoon crop for this stand so I'm going to remove it and start from scratch. The fruit this year are way smaller.
ImperialExotics
10-05-2012, 07:43 AM
Shame that this is how they earn a living, there must be better ways to use their skills. GM is not doing anything to save the world or the hungry people from starving. It's just making the biotech and chemical corps rich and powerful.
Now that is nonsense. Not doing anything?
Drought resistant tomatoes, super wheats that produce higher yields, to name two major items, is not my idea of nothing.
I'm glad I don't walk around with the impression that any scientist who doesn't embrace organic as their religion is a soulless monster intent on destroying the planet through harsh chemicals for their Biotech overlords.
And I'll repeat for the record: I am far from being against an 'organic' solution to growing. I try to use as little pesticides as possible, and what I use is a friendly solution, however it is far too expensive for anything other than a backyard garden and most certainly not suitable for large scale production.
Solve the problem where you don't drastically increase production costs to the point where store bought bananas go from .69 cents a pound to 2.50 a pound, and increase labor cost 3.5x because organic pesticides need to be sprayed more, meaning higher labor. And finally, put an end to the organic elitism and hypocrisy saying how great organic is when organic approved pesticides are harmful to fish and aquatic life.
momoese
10-05-2012, 10:22 AM
Now that is nonsense. Not doing anything?
Drought resistant tomatoes, super wheats that produce higher yields, to name two major items, is not my idea of nothing.
I'm glad I don't walk around with the impression that any scientist who doesn't embrace organic as their religion is a soulless monster intent on destroying the planet through harsh chemicals for their Biotech overlords.
And I'll repeat for the record: I am far from being against an 'organic' solution to growing. I try to use as little pesticides as possible, and what I use is a friendly solution, however it is far too expensive for anything other than a backyard garden and most certainly not suitable for large scale production.
Solve the problem where you don't drastically increase production costs to the point where store bought bananas go from .69 cents a pound to 2.50 a pound, and increase labor cost 3.5x because organic pesticides need to be sprayed more, meaning higher labor. And finally, put an end to the organic elitism and hypocrisy saying how great organic is when organic approved pesticides are harmful to fish and aquatic life.
I never said that if they didn't embrace organic they were soulless monsters, that was you. I simply said GM is not the way and there must be better ways to use their talent/skills. Perhaps they could work on some GE beneficial bugs that self terminate after a certain time, or a weed eating bug that self terminates when it runs out of certain weeds to eat, etc etc.
I don't believe that a lot of the organic pesticides are necessary either. Biodiversity should be used more in organic gardening. In my backyard "organic" garden I use nothing toxic for us or our pets. I have beneficial insects that have been drawn to the garden naturally like jumping spiders, ladybugs, parasitic wasps, and a few praying mantis. I could dust with BT but choose to hand pick caterpillars because the area is small enough. When I need a spray I use water, cayenne pepper, garlic and dish soap. My soil is alive and healthy, not soulless and inert. The plants reward me for my efforts.
ImperialExotics
10-06-2012, 10:59 PM
I never said that if they didn't embrace organic they were soulless monsters, that was you. I simply said GM is not the way and there must be better ways to use their talent/skills.
Actually, you said:
GM is not doing anything to save the world or the hungry people from starving. It's just making the biotech and chemical corps rich and powerful.
You didn't use those words specifically but you are most certainly making the implication with the words you are choosing to use.
You are seriously going to try to say that drought tolerant tomatoes, wheat that can grow pretty much anywhere, etc. that has substantially higher yields than their predecessors isn't doing anything to help feed the world?
Sorry, but I have to call the ridiculous flag on that one.
momoese
10-07-2012, 01:41 PM
Actually, you said:
GM is not doing anything to save the world or the hungry people from starving. It's just making the biotech and chemical corps rich and powerful.
You didn't use those words specifically but you are most certainly making the implication with the words you are choosing to use.
You are seriously going to try to say that drought tolerant tomatoes, wheat that can grow pretty much anywhere, etc. that has substantially higher yields than their predecessors isn't doing anything to help feed the world?
Sorry, but I have to call the ridiculous flag on that one.
Sorry but for every claimed success they have done way more harm to the eco system, farmers and the inhabitants of this planet. Besides that there are drought tolerant heirloom varieties and farming methods but if Monsanto and the like have there way there will only be GM seeds. You call your ridiculous flag all you want but what's truly ridiculous is how they've hijacked the worlds food supply and some people don't seem to mind. We should all be in an uproar about what's taking place.
momoese
10-07-2012, 02:09 PM
Dan Barber: How I fell in love with a fish | Video on TED.com (http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_barber_how_i_fell_in_love_with_a_fish.html)
NigelHaslam
10-11-2012, 07:53 PM
Sorry, but the context above 'dirty aspects of commercial agriculture' is a highly biased remark and not very objective.
Fair enough.. I didn't choose my words well and I apologize. I was clouding the issue by including (in my mind), intensive animal food production, issues like cage hens and dairy cows on Posilac etc etc.
I do tend to believe that some large scale commercial agribusinesses guilty of putting profit ahead of people / animals but they are not alone. Nor are they run by evil people. They are just getting on with life and desiring the same shiny things that we are all encouraged to aspire to by the media.. houses.. cars.. boats etc.
We are relentlessly encouraged to consume not only by the media but by governments who all buy into the economics of growth as the norm. However infinite growth cannot be supported in any system, so something's got to give.
Here's a very good article about feeding the world which explores the issues of organic vs commercial methods and the state of humanity.
The 9 billion-people question | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/18200618)
Cheers
Nigel
PS. I've been a bit busy recently hence no posts.
NigelHaslam
10-11-2012, 08:13 PM
Hi Nigel.
Bananas provide potassium, a gluten free source of carbs (because I seem to have a problem with wheat or something on/in the wheat) and I swear this is true... 5 bananas a day increases my feeling of well being.
A lot of people are becoming wheat intolerant these days. Gluten free"" was a term one didn't hear very often 20 years ago but it's commonplace now.
I can't help wondering if there's a link between the increase in such conditions / allergies / new illnesses like ADHD and the massive growth of Autism with the use of the hybrid crops herbicides and pesticides.
No one knows what side effects could emerge from GM crops but they're being pushed on the world in a highly aggressive manner. Trade agreements are bound in to an agreement to purchase GM products
Terminator seeds are manipulated to be infertile.. the DNA of plants ain't so far different to that of humans... put that 2 + 2 together.
I don't think anyone has the right to copyright life.
Nature's abundance is nowhere more evident that the production of seeds. Monsanto and the like are seeking to take that away from the general population and they have got themselves into a controlling position at government to do so.
Organic may not be able to feed the world, so perhaps the world population needs to stop growing. It's a proven fact that life will expand to meet the availability of food.
This is a world problem that will have to be addressed pretty soon.
PR-Giants
10-11-2012, 09:25 PM
This thread has gone all over the place, so here's another.
Desertification is a major problem in countries that practice common grazing lands, the lands are exploited and neglected. If this continues it will only increase the need for GM crops, maybe these folks at Monsanto are visionaries.
Desertification
Is that when you put ice cream/fudge sauce on your mashed potatoes instead of butter/gravy ???
:ha:
momoese
10-11-2012, 10:55 PM
This thread has gone all over the place, so here's another.
Desertification is a major problem in countries that practice common grazing lands, the lands are exploited and neglected. If this continues it will only increase the need for GM crops, maybe these folks at Monsanto are visionaries.
Nothing a few chemtrails can't fix, or make worse.
PR-Giants
10-11-2012, 11:18 PM
Nothing a few chemtrails can't fix, or make worse.
Regardless of what side of the fence someone is on, most people realize the solution starts with being better stewards of the land.
GW, Dessertification is when they take away your ice cream and fudge sauce.
GW, Dessertification is when they take away your ice cream and fudge sauce.
that sounds more like dedessertification
Nothing a few chemtrails can't fix, or make worse.
CHEMTRAILS ?? seriously?
And the Lord said unto them " Thou shalt not engage in trolling with thine ridiculous, unsubstantiated, inflammatory theories or I shall smite thee, in my mercy". And it was good.
:rollerbananadone:
momoese
10-12-2012, 09:14 AM
that sounds more like dedessertification
CHEMTRAILS ?? seriously?
And the Lord said unto them " Thou shalt not engage in trolling with thine ridiculous, unsubstantiated, inflammatory theories or I shall smite thee, in my mercy". And it was good.
:rollerbananadone:
Yes seriously
"Why in the World are They Spraying?" Documentary HD (multiple language subtitles) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEfJO0-cTis)
momoese
10-12-2012, 03:33 PM
A great article that gets into a lot of we have been talking about here. It's also the first I've heard about the California Clean rating system.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/magazine/californias-central-valley-land-of-a-billion-vegetables.html?WT.mc_id=NYT-I-P-FOOD-MAG-101412-L1&_r=1&
PR-Giants
10-12-2012, 04:56 PM
Two good articles
Defining Desertification : Feature Articles (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Desertification/desertification2.php)
Soil Salinisation (http://eusoils.jrc.ec.europa.eu/library/themes/salinization/)
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