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Iunepeace
04-24-2012, 06:30 PM
Hey fellow growers and banana hopefuls; I have a few plants here that I got from various relatives (lots of people grow bananas here locally) and I'd like to know what varieties they are if possible.

This one I suspect is an Orinoco (hopefully Dwarf); it's about 5 feet from base to where the newest leaf comes out of the pseudostem. Do you think so too?

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s296/iunepeace/Bananas/Photo0066.jpg

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s296/iunepeace/Bananas/Photo0069.jpg

Midrib looks to have a pinkish tint

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s296/iunepeace/Bananas/Photo0070.jpg

I'm not sure what this one is; it has nice pinkish coloring on the pseudostem. For those of you who might be worried that it's too young to definitively say due to the vast amount of varieties in existence, it's definitely one of the standard, average-joe varieties grown in this area (Florida/North Caribbean), like Ladyfinger or something. We don't have much variety diversity or rare varieties here where I live, so feel free to guess any average variety pertinent to the area you can think of that looks like this.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s296/iunepeace/Bananas/Photo0068.jpg

At another angle
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s296/iunepeace/Bananas/Photo0067.jpg

Thanks in advance! :D :birthdaynana:

caliboy1994
04-24-2012, 08:36 PM
The first one looks like it could be Orinoco. I don't think Orinoco has any pink coloration though, you'll know for sure when it flowers. I'm not sure about the second one. Where did you get it?

Iunepeace
04-24-2012, 09:43 PM
I have seen in some of this forum's threads that Orinocos usually are purely green, but who knows. And I'm a little eager, so I want to know what it is before it flowers (I'll still love it) since I can know what to expect.

The tall one I got from one of my grandmothers, who had two patches in her front yard. She cleared out the first one (I took a sucker from it beforehand), so it lives on through this plant I guess lol. The other pinkish one I got in a set of about 7-9 suckers from my uncle, who grows a ton of stuff on another island. He had like 6 or 7 bunches of Super Dwarf Cavendish ripening at the same time n_n so he could definitely spare a few sucker lol. It probably would've been taller by now (since I got it around Christmas) but I didn't pot it up until about two or three weeks later, so the pseudostem had to regrow almost from the corm level.

sunfish
04-24-2012, 10:17 PM
The second one maybe a plantain ?

Iunepeace
04-25-2012, 01:08 AM
Plantains usually have pinkish coloring on their pseudostems as young plants? And the latter banana has open petioles, if that helps anything. Oddly enough, we don't have much plants here that are true plantains (with few hands and terminating male flowers) as far as I know, so if it is then it'd probably be a variety that's just culturally called a plantain, not one in the scientific group.

Do you think it might be a Ladyfinger Tony?

Yug
04-25-2012, 04:44 AM
The one with the maroon splotches should be in the Chinese/Williams/Cavendish group. The 'blood marks' are a characteristic of those. I had them on my Gros Michel while it was really young, too.

Iunepeace
04-25-2012, 04:53 AM
The one with the maroon splotches should be in the Chinese/Williams/Cavendish group. The 'blood marks' are a characteristic of those. I had them on my Gros Michel while it was really young, too.

Interesting. I didn't know those markings were only found in the Cavendish group. Do the Brazilians/Apples not have blood splotches in their youth then?

I honestly have no clue what variety it is now lol. I was initially wondering about Ladyfinger, but apparently that's a common name for many varieties.

Yug
04-25-2012, 05:40 AM
Interesting. I didn't know those markings were only found in the Cavendish group. Do the Brazilians/Apples not have blood splotches in their youth then?

I honestly have no clue what variety it is now lol. I was initially wondering about Ladyfinger, but apparently that's a common name for many varieties.
I had another banana with the 'blood marks' on it while small, but I can't recall whether it was a Dwarf Brazilian or a Manzano. I think it was the DB.

sunfish
04-25-2012, 08:09 AM
Plantains usually have pinkish coloring on their pseudostems as young plants? And the latter banana has open petioles, if that helps anything. Oddly enough, we don't have much plants here that are true plantains (with few hands and terminating male flowers) as far as I know, so if it is then it'd probably be a variety that's just culturally called a plantain, not one in the scientific group.

Do you think it might be a Ladyfinger Tony?

I'm just guessing.Don't really know what it is.Some plantains have the splotches.
'Dwarf Puerto Rican'plantain

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=44759&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=44759&ppuser=2868)

Iunepeace
04-25-2012, 11:51 AM
I had another banana with the 'blood marks' on it while small, but I can't recall whether it was a Dwarf Brazilian or a Manzano. I think it was the DB.

I'm beginning to think of it as Brazilian as well.


I'm just guessing.Don't really know what it is.Some plantains have the splotches.
'Dwarf Puerto Rican'plantain

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=44759&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=44759&ppuser=2868)


That looks really similar! (except maybe healthier lol). I guess it might be some sort of brazilian or plantain. Is that DPR Plantain in the actual plantain group (meaning it bears only one or two hands and has a terminating male bud) or is it just used as a cooking banana, and bears a ton of fruit? (hoping for the latter lol)

Also, I didn't know plantains like that had so much pinkish tint to their pseudostems. Interesting :)

sunfish
04-25-2012, 12:13 PM
I'm beginning to think of it as Brazilian as well.





That looks really similar! (except maybe healthier lol). I guess it might be some sort of brazilian or plantain. Is that DPR Plantain in the actual plantain group (meaning it bears only one or two hands and has a terminating male bud) or is it just used as a cooking banana, and bears a ton of fruit? (hoping for the latter lol)

Also, I didn't know plantains like that had so much pinkish tint to their pseudostems. Interesting :)


Agri-Starts, Inc. - Musa 'Dwarf Puerto Rican' Plantain (http://www.agristarts.com/htm/ts_pages/musa_dwarfpuertorican.htm)

momoese
04-25-2012, 12:17 PM
Interesting. I didn't know those markings were only found in the Cavendish group. Do the Brazilians/Apples not have blood splotches in their youth then?

I honestly have no clue what variety it is now lol. I was initially wondering about Ladyfinger, but apparently that's a common name for many varieties.

I grow both and have never noticed any splotches in either. Not saying it can't happen, just hasn't on my HA's or DB's.

nph
04-25-2012, 07:12 PM
I am pretty sure the second one is Grand Nain or maybe Dwarf Cavendish.
(I have both and this looks almost exactly like my G N)

Iunepeace
04-26-2012, 04:33 AM
Agri-Starts, Inc. - Musa 'Dwarf Puerto Rican' Plantain (http://www.agristarts.com/htm/ts_pages/musa_dwarfpuertorican.htm)

Thanks for the link Tony! Since Dwarf Puerto Rican Plantains are a plantain mutant I guess it could possibly be a plantain. Don't see any pinkish pseudostem there tho.

I grow both and have never noticed any splotches in either. Not saying it can't happen, just hasn't on my HA's or DB's.

Well I've never grown any of those varieties so I guess you'd know better than me lol. Are any of those in the Cavendish group at all, or completely different? I would think the Brazilians would have some pink streaking. They nor their suckers have ever had any pinkish coloring whatsoever in your experience Mitchel?


I am pretty sure the second one is Grand Nain or maybe Dwarf Cavendish.
(I have both and this looks almost exactly like my G N)

You think so? I'm not seeing any pinkish coloring on the suckers in the Dwarf Cavendish pic on the webpage Tony linked me, but they do have blood-colored streaked leaf pseudostem. I definitely hope you're right about the first guess and it's a Grand Nain (already have Super Dwarf Cavendish, and most growers say many bananas taste better than Cavendish) since it's touted to be a very good variety with good-tasting bananas. Has this been your experience? And how has the plants performed, bunch sizes bigger/smaller than Dwarf Cavendishes, took shorter/longer to fruit?

Thanks in advance everyone! I really appreciate you all helping me to identify what I'm growing! :D

venturabananas
04-26-2012, 10:51 AM
Dan, you probably won't know what they are until they produce a flower, and maybe not even then. There are lots of varieties, not just Cavendish that have the "wine stains" on the leaves of water suckers, though Cavendish varieties tend to have very pronounced stains. In general, varieties with lots of B (balbisiana) genes, like Orinoco and Namwah (both ABB) don't have wine stains. Ones with exclusively A (acuminata) genes (e.g., Cavendish AAA) will have the strongest stains, but not all varieties with only A genes have wine stains. Ones with more A genes than B genes (e.g., Brazilian and Rajapuri both AAB) can high light wine stains or none. Note that the wine stains are usually only present on water suckers and not sword suckers.

momoese
04-26-2012, 11:00 AM
I would think the Brazilians would have some pink streaking. They nor their suckers have ever had any pinkish coloring whatsoever in your experience Mitchel?




When the sword pups are are just poking through the soil until they are several inches tall they have some pink color, and the midribs of the leaves have some pink color, but no wine stains on the leaves.

Nicolas Naranja
04-26-2012, 10:00 PM
The one with wine splotches looks like a plantain. And by plantain I mean the ones with a few hands of 8-10" fruit. There are french type plantains like dwarf super plantain that don't lose their male buds and they are very pink on the pseudostem with wine blotches. I don't remember if the small gran nains had the pink psuedostem when they were young.

On your other plant, it's hard to say. When I first saw it I thought of Hua Moa, but that's probably because I've been planting them lately.

Iunepeace
04-29-2012, 10:34 PM
Dan, you probably won't know what they are until they produce a flower, and maybe not even then. There are lots of varieties, not just Cavendish that have the "wine stains" on the leaves of water suckers, though Cavendish varieties tend to have very pronounced stains. In general, varieties with lots of B (balbisiana) genes, like Orinoco and Namwah (both ABB) don't have wine stains. Ones with exclusively A (acuminata) genes (e.g., Cavendish AAA) will have the strongest stains, but not all varieties with only A genes have wine stains. Ones with more A genes than B genes (e.g., Brazilian and Rajapuri both AAB) can high light wine stains or none. Note that the wine stains are usually only present on water suckers and not sword suckers.

Thanks for the ton of info Mark; I really appreciate it! I realize that it's sometimes difficult to get a banana variety properly identified, especially at a youthful stage, but I'd be even glad to fin out what group of bananas it's in so I can get an estimate of possible heights, flowering time, growth habits, etc. Thanks again for the in-depthness :)


When the sword pups are are just poking through the soil until they are several inches tall they have some pink color, and the midribs of the leaves have some pink color, but no wine stains on the leaves.

Thanks for the heads-up Mitchel; I'll be on the lookout for that with future swords with my other unknown varieties :)

The one with wine splotches looks like a plantain. And by plantain I mean the ones with a few hands of 8-10" fruit. There are french type plantains like dwarf super plantain that don't lose their male buds and they are very pink on the pseudostem with wine blotches. I don't remember if the small gran nains had the pink psuedostem when they were young.

On your other plant, it's hard to say. When I first saw it I thought of Hua Moa, but that's probably because I've been planting them lately.

Thanks Nick! I'm beginning to lean towards some type of plantain, or other tall variety, myself in regards to those pink wine-stained leaf ones. And definitely not a Hua Moa lol; we don't get much, if any, of those grown locally around here.

Iunepeace
06-25-2012, 01:57 AM
Update: My uncle, who lives on the capital's island and whom I got the pinkish tinted banana from (along with a few others), visited my garden a few weeks ago and told me that the tall green one is what we call here Sugar banana, so I'm thinking it's in the Ladyfinger/Sucrier family, some type of Dwarf[ish] Pisang Mas since it apparently fruits at around 8' or so (he said it had about 3' of growing left before it flowered), although the stem looks a little thicker than I expected for that variety. Thoughts?

Secondly, he identified the pinkish one as a plantain. Since it does have some A genes (hence the wine marks), could it be the Dwarf Super Plantain or Dwarf Puerto Rican?

Thanks in advance! :D

venturabananas
06-25-2012, 09:13 AM
The first one you have pictured is not a Sucrier. The petiole canal is too closed, the p-stem is the wrong color, etc. Sucrier is a AA genome banana. Yours looks like an ABB. It'll be interesting to see what it is when it fruits for you.

Plantain definitely makes sense for the other one. I have no idea which one.

momoese
06-25-2012, 11:35 AM
When the sword pups are are just poking through the soil until they are several inches tall they have some pink color, and the midribs of the leaves have some pink color, but no wine stains on the leaves.

In the last batch of plants I removed from the HA stand I found one pup with some wine stains. This pup had been cut short and regrew so maybe that had something to do with it.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m161/momoese/2012-06-17142156.jpg

Iunepeace
06-25-2012, 04:53 PM
Thanks momo. It does seem like there are instances in these varieties where there are at least some marginal wine staining, such as in your case with the pup. As for the pink coloring in your picture, another sucker that I took from the mat I received the large banana from has been recently planted and pushed out a sucker that's almost wholly pink :)

The midribs of most of the large banana have pink coloring as well.

Iunepeace
07-17-2013, 10:35 AM
Hey all! Wow, it's been more than a year since the last post on this thread.

Good news! I still have no idea what kind of banana the plant is (lol) but I have lot more pictures now, and some photos of the first bunch it bore last fall that should help. Let me know what you think! :)


First flower (sometime last July) :woohoonaner:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50025&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50025)




Love this petal color
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50023&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50023)




Bunch growing
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50024&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50024)




Closeup of fingers
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50026&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50026)




Closeup of bud
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50027&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50027)




Mum with harvested bunch
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=53719&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=53719)




Dad with harvested bunch
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=53720&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=53720)




Closeup of harvested bunch
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=53721&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=53721)




My parents said they were very good! I know they cooked a few of the green ones and ate them (couldn't wait for them to ripen I guess lol) and I'm not sure if they let any ripen fully before eating, so I can't say whether they're sweet or not. Any thoughts on what type of banana it might be? :D

PR-Giants
07-17-2013, 10:57 AM
Nice Bunch!!!:woohoonaner:

It looks like a Dwarf Bom, an excellent cooking banana.

TARS 18019 - Musa hybr. - Bom - Belgium (http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1713415)

venturabananas
07-17-2013, 12:12 PM
I assume Keith is having a joke at our expense. It is something in the Bluggoe subgroup, Orinoco or a close relative. The key features are very angular fruit and few fingers per hand. Bom is in the Pisang Awak subgroup (which included Dwarf Namwah) and is very different.

Iunepeace
07-17-2013, 12:30 PM
Thanks for the replies both of you!

Keith, I think I agree with Mark on this one. The Bom in the link seems to be a much more slender plant than the one I have (with wider spacing between leaves, seems taller, etc) and the bud is much more tear shaped with longer looking fingers than mine. Thank you very much for the opinion though, keep those guesses coming :)

Mark, I am leaning towards it being in the same family as Orinoco, for the same blunt features you mention. However, while the fruit is a bit blocky (lol), the hands all had 10-15+ fingers on them so I'm not sure if it's directly related. Do you know anything in the Bluggoe group that has lots of fingers per hand? Also, what genotype group are Bluggoes?

Thanks again.

robguz24
07-17-2013, 12:34 PM
They look a lot like Ice Creams to me, especially in the first and last pictures. Or the similar Silver Bluggoe.

sunfish
07-17-2013, 12:42 PM
Isn'tg it easy to tell if it is ice cream by the ice cream taste ?

venturabananas
07-17-2013, 12:48 PM
Rob, I was thinking Ice Cream, too, based on their shape and what they looked like the in sink photo, but they didn't seem blue enough in the flower stage on the bunch on the plant. But you've seen a lot more of them than I have.

Dan, the Bluggo subgroup (which according to Keppler and Rust includes Ice Cream), has ABB genetics.

The number of fingers per hand is on the high end for what I've seen in Bluggoe, but not unreasonable. On the other hand, pardon the pun, 10 fingers is way too low for your typical, healthy Pisang Awak.

venturabananas
07-17-2013, 12:50 PM
Isn'tg it easy to tell if it is ice cream by the ice cream taste ?

Yep, tastes just like mint chocolate chip. :ha:

sunfish
07-17-2013, 01:08 PM
Yep, tastes just like mint chocolate chip. :ha:

As long as they don't have a banana taste that's good.:ha:

robguz24
07-17-2013, 02:42 PM
Rob, I was thinking Ice Cream, too, based on their shape and what they looked like the in sink photo, but they didn't seem blue enough in the flower stage on the bunch on the plant. But you've seen a lot more of them than I have.

Dan, the Bluggo subgroup (which according to Keppler and Rust includes Ice Cream), has ABB genetics.

The number of fingers per hand is on the high end for what I've seen in Bluggoe, but not unreasonable. On the other hand, pardon the pun, 10 fingers is way too low for your typical, healthy Pisang Awak.

I thought so too regarding the color, but they look much more blue in the sink photo. I've taken pics of mine and often find they look less blue than they seem in real life. Also something about the tips make them look just like some other ice creams I harvested a bit early. Kepler also mentions that sometimes they aren't as blue as they normally are. Also, the p-stem picture is that typical yellowish green that all my ice creams have, that my namwah don't have.

Here's the shot I have that looks most like the sink picture.

http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b508/robguz24/Robs%20bananas/file-149.jpg (http://s1289.photobucket.com/user/robguz24/media/Robs%20bananas/file-149.jpg.html)

And another, more ripe and less blue.
http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b508/robguz24/Robs%20bananas/file-323.jpg (http://s1289.photobucket.com/user/robguz24/media/Robs%20bananas/file-323.jpg.html)

Iunepeace
07-17-2013, 03:00 PM
Thanks again for the quick replies.

Good to know that the fingerage on the hands are not over the expected amounts for the Bluggoe Keith (nice pun by the way), and correct if I'm wrong but those in the ABB group don't exhibit pinkage right? I'm pretty sure the pups on this one had pink tints growing up.

You're certainly putting my hopes up Rob lol. I'd love for this to be an Ice Cream; and they do have a sheen in the sink picture. The problem is that while this was ripening I was in Mississippi 800 miles away at school, so I have basically no contact with the harvesting experience save these pictures.

It also doesn't help that my parents kept so little (gave a lot to friends and family), which is fine, but the little that they kept was mostly cooked unripe as boiled banana in stews and such so I have no idea how "sweet" they taste.

You've made some pretty good points though, and that last picture with the Ice Cream is certainly greener than mine looked in the sink, so I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility :)

Lastly, are Bluggoes more of a starchy cooking banana or do they still sweeten dessert-style when ripening? And what is the normal amount of fingers for Ice Creams to bear? This plant had about 70 bananas.

Although this mat has put out its second flower already (less than a year from the first I think), it's incredibly crowded over there since my bananas went haywire while I was away so I don't think I'll get much out of it. Will have to do a large scale clearing project before I go back.

Iunepeace
07-17-2013, 03:30 PM
I forgot to add in my last post that the reason I hesitate to say they're Ice Cream (besides not tasting them ripe) is because the Ice Cream bananas that I've seen REALLY look like Ice Creams lol. Here's a photo of a bunch from the mat of a lady I know:


http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=49499&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=49499)


It'd be pretty easy to identify something like that :)

Is there any variety that looks pretty much identical to the Ice Cream minus the blue tinting? Again thanks for the helpfulness.

Nicolas Naranja
07-17-2013, 07:38 PM
I wouldn't rule out ice cream, or perhaps the variety that is sold in most of the US as Ice Cream.

PR-Giants
07-18-2013, 12:14 AM
Bunch growing
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50024&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50024)

Closeup of fingers
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50026&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50026)

Closeup of bud
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50027&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50027)



I don't grow Orinoco or Blue Java, but from photos I've seen the shape of the pedicles seem different.
There's probably a member here that has grown these cultivars and would know if they have purple pedicles.

I do remember reading this and just assumed it was accurate and maybe the Bluggoe subgroup also has purple pedicles.

It would be interesting to see a list of cultivars with purple pedicles.


Is this the elusive blue java?



Yes it is :bananas_b

.


No, it is definitely not. It is a "Namwah" (a Pisang Awak cultivar) for sure. There are several giveaways, but a really obvious one from the photos is the purplish band of color on the banana finger "stems" (pedicels) where they attach to the base of the hand and the bunch stalk.

I assume Keith is having a joke at our expense. It is something in the Bluggoe subgroup, Orinoco or a close relative. The key features are very angular fruit and few fingers per hand. Bom is in the Pisang Awak subgroup (which included Dwarf Namwah) and is very different.

robguz24
07-18-2013, 02:53 AM
Well the Silver Bluggoe looks pretty much like a less blue Ice Cream. That picture shows them more blue than mine.

Iunepeace
06-27-2014, 11:14 AM
Update: I'm finally back in the summer from college and have been doing some more banana research while I'm getting my garden and bananas back into gear. Venturabananas commented on a post a couple years ago by a grower who thought he had IC but turned out to be Namwah. Apparently Namwah has purplish coloring where the fingers connect to the stalk? If so this is probably a Namwah (or Silver Bluggoe) and not an Ice Cream since some of the flowering pictures definitely show a purplish connection to the stalk. Thanks for the help everyone :)

I'll link the thread I read about the purplish connection in:

http://www.bananas.org/f2/ice-cream-blue-java-flag-leaf-16568.html#post203819