View Full Version : Musa Velutina Experiment
AllenF
02-13-2007, 04:03 PM
I received 60 M. velutina seeds today and began an experiment. Because of the number of seeds, I opted to have only 2 variables; 1)scarification and 2)unsterile germinating media. I ended up with 26 seeds in each batch as 8 seeds shattered during scarification. The sterile medium will be moist perlite and the unsterile medium will be banana pulp.
Both groups will experience the following;
- 54 C (130 F) hot water bath
- soaking for 72 hours with no water change...NB changed to 86 hours
- Sealed in translucent container
- surrounded heat of 34 C (93 F)
- diffused low light
- checked weekly for changes starting Feb. 19/07
:vandelnana:
Allen
bigdog
02-13-2007, 06:45 PM
I was reading another study on scarification yesterday, and probably gave you bad advice. It seems that scarification works great if you are using aseptic media (agar), and have surface-sterilized your seeds. Scarified seeds placed directly in soil had zero percent germination.
AllenF
02-13-2007, 09:59 PM
This experiment will either confirm the study or confuse the subject further.
The hot water has served to 'sterilize' most palm seeds I have worked with in the past. I have never had a problem with mold or fungus during germination.
Thanks for your input.
Allen
AllenF
02-17-2007, 08:50 AM
The experiment has suffered from the banana nut's most frequent problem;
Spouseus interruptus
As a result the soak period was extended to 86 hours.
The seeds are in the germination medium and under heat.
Observations:
1) No indication of mold, fungus etc.
2)Scarified seed appeared to have swollen and are about 20% larger than unscarified seed.
Next observation has been changed to Feb 26/07.
Allen
Tropicallvr
02-19-2007, 03:08 PM
Scarification of Ensete ventricosum seemed to work for me, but I don't think it is nessisary.
When any Musa or Ensete species sprouts the "root" comes out of the little round "belly button" that each seed has. The seed is probally thinner in that spot.
I'd like to hear how well the ones that "swelled up" sprout.
AllenF
02-20-2007, 01:37 AM
I have scarified the seed to expose the inside to moisture. I hope that it will take on moisture so that the seed will germinate faster. It worked for palms. Now I will see if it will work for this banana.
Allen
AllenF
02-27-2007, 11:07 AM
No change in the seed to date. The banana pulp has gotten quite liquid. there is no sign of fungus or mold.
Allen
Ithaca Isles
02-27-2007, 04:19 PM
Do you have to maintain the (130 F) hot water bath temp for the full 86 hours?
Thanks,
Gena
AllenF
02-27-2007, 09:00 PM
I added the seed to the hot water and allowed it to cool to room temperature and soak. The seed that was scarified had been scarified before adding to the hot water.
Allen
Randy4ut
02-28-2007, 09:07 AM
Allen,
Just wanted you to know that I am following your post to keep an eye on my "babies". Good luck and keep us posted...
Gabe15
02-28-2007, 01:36 PM
Scarification of Ensete ventricosum seemed to work for me, but I don't think it is nessisary.
When any Musa or Ensete species sprouts the "root" comes out of the little round "belly button" that each seed has. The seed is probally thinner in that spot.
I'd like to hear how well the ones that "swelled up" sprout.
That "belly button" you are talking about is called the micropyle, and I would highly discourage anyone from attempting to scarify the seed on or near that point. This is because directly underneath that about 1-2mm (or less, depending on species) is the embryo, and if you are to damage the embryo the seed will never germinate.
Also, as Frank mentioned, it makes sense that scarifying the seed would only help if in agar, which is the exact same thing as embryo rescue germination. If you are only soaking the seeds in water, the water easily penetrates the seed coat over night without the need of any holes. The only reason it works better in vitro (in a growth medium/agar) is because the growth medium is too thick to penetrate the seed coat and reach the embryo. I actually developed a different method of embryo rescue germination where you remove the micropyle and micropylar plug and expose the embryo to the germination medium without removing the embryo from the seed. This helps reduce damage to the embryo as well as serving to keep the endosperm of the seed available to the embryo for nurishment.
Below are some seed pictures of Musa velutina as well as a diagram of a general Musaceae seed (there are differences between species but they all have similar structure).
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=2106&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2106&ppuser=5)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=2107&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2107&ppuser=5)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=2108&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2108&ppuser=5)
AllenF
03-01-2007, 01:45 AM
Thank you for the information. When I scarified the seed, I exposed both the endosperm and micropyle by cutting a 30 degree notch in the right hand side of the seed as outlined in the diagram.
I can understand the need for the embryo to penetrate the micropyle and the micropylar plug with it's root in order to germinate.
Despite the assertion that water can penetrate the seed coating without it being scarified, I noted that the scarified seed was about 20% larger than the unscarified seed after both had been soaked in water for 86 hours.
I suggest that the absorption of more water by the scarified seed would have caused increases in the size of the micropyle and endosperm which would have stressed the micropylar plug perhaps causing fracture(s).
At the next observation I will consider the removal and perhaps dissection of 1 of each of the seed categories.
Allen
bigdog
03-01-2007, 10:55 PM
Gabe, those are great pics, and a nice diagram. Your middle picture shows the embryo very nicely. I wonder if you could highlight it?
I have some difficulty understanding something about imbibing Musa seeds. I have McGahan's 1961 Anatomy of the Seed and Embryo of Musa Balbisiana in front of me here, and was reading part of it where it talks about the inner integument (not pictured in your diagram). He states that "when the (micropylar) plug is removed by hand, the inner integument frequently remains in place and appears as a small, beaked cap..." He also says, right before that, that the portion of the inner integument that surrounds the micropyle is forced out with the plug at germination. What this leads me to believe is that if you do not remove the micropylar plug, that the inner integument (which surrounds the endosperm and comes into full contact with the embryo) will remain intact, and prevent water from penetrating to the endosperm. In the scarification study that I referenced, a lateral portion of the seed coat was removed, exposing the endosperm, and placed with the exposed side directly on the agar. Removing the micropylar plug doesn't aid in germination at all, and as Gabe says, you could injure the embryo and kill the seed.
I have seen references to unpublished findings that chipping the seed coat did aid in germination (Don't have that in front of me though...I'd have to dig for it). There were no details provided, just a simple reference with the date 1960. Just a few years before, Simmonds had reported no success with scarification.
Anyway, I look forward to your results, Allen!
Gabe15
03-01-2007, 11:07 PM
From my own experiments, I have found that a dry seed will be completely saturated by soaking in water with no scarification. I used to do this before embryo rescue to make it easier to cut the seed in half. The seeds would crumble and fly all over the place when dry, but after a few nights soaking (with no scarification), they were always completely moist all the way through. Im not saying that scaring the seed has no effect, but I would tend to think it does not aid in helping water enter the seed as it seems to be able to penetrate the seed coat just fine without any help.
Gabe15
03-01-2007, 11:25 PM
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=2109 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2108&ppuser=5)
AllenF
03-05-2007, 02:34 AM
I observed no change in the seeds.
The banana pulp had begun to ferment. I aired it out before resealing it.
I will be waiting another week before doing anything.
Allen
AllenF
03-13-2007, 01:02 AM
No changes were observed in either batch of seed.
The banana pulp is extremely fermented and has proven to be unsuited as a nonsterile medium under these specific circumstances. It will be replaced by a mixture of 'used ' potting soil, non sterile sand and perlite. This is all that I have available as the majority of the ground is snow covered or frozen mud.
The sterile medium is beginning to show signs of mold/fungus. It will be rebathed in 130-140 F water and rinsed.
I will remove one seed from each batch of seed for inspection/disection.
The results will be posted later this week.
Allen
the flying dutchman
03-13-2007, 11:59 AM
Allen, thanks for keeping us informed. Im looking forward to your next report.
ron
AllenF
03-14-2007, 12:47 AM
The unsterile banana pulp medium has been replaced with unsterile potting soil/sand/perlite in a ratio of 1/1/1.
The sterile medium has been replaced with another quantity of moist perlite.
Both sets of seed were bathed twice in 130-140 F water.
The unscarified seed has swollen to the same size as the scarified seed.
The micropylar plug appears softer in 3 of the unscarified seed, with one plug beginning to disintegrate.
On disection the mass and texture of the seed was the same for both sets of seed, softer and less brittle than the seeds that were scarified at the beginning of the experiment.
The interior of the seed is substantially the same as in Gabe 15's picture posted Mar 1/07 with the exception of the micropylar plug which is significantly smaller.
The next observation will be March 19/07.
Allen
AllenF
03-14-2007, 08:31 PM
The M. velutina seeds were donated by Randy.
Seeds from the same plant have begun to sprout for others after 3 months without any special attention. This should make a nice comparable for my experiment.
Thank you Randy.
Allen
AllenF
03-19-2007, 06:53 AM
Another week.
No change.
Allen
AllenF
03-26-2007, 04:57 PM
Still no Change.
I will post when there is some activity.
Allen
MediaHound
04-15-2007, 11:01 AM
wiki wiki
http://www.bananas.org/wiki/Musa_Velutina
AllenF
04-30-2007, 05:14 PM
The electric heater that I was using to bottom heat the seed failed and has been replaced today with the suns heat which varies between 32 C(90 F and 17 C(65 F) throughout the day.:eek:
There has been no other change.
Allen
AllenF
05-27-2007, 02:04 PM
The seeds have been 3 1/2 months with no results. Most others including those who received seeds from the same batch have had germination in 3 months with little or no additional effort.:0491:
This particular experiment indicates that scarification, sterile media, hot water treatment and varying temperatures has no positive affect on germination.
Allen
Gabe15
05-27-2007, 03:49 PM
The germination of banana seeds is very complicated and still not well understood even by professionals in the field. One aspect of germination that is known though, is that there are chemical regulators within the seeds that (under optimal conditions) dictate when the seed will germinate, these can be "set" any where from a few weeks to a few years perhaps and will vary even within the same batch of seeds collected from the same plant. You will notice this when growing lots of seeds, they will sometimes germinate in waves, with many germinating at once each time.
So what I'm trying to say is, don't give up. I know a grower who had a whole batch of M. velutina seeds come up overnight 2 years after planting.
AllenF
05-28-2007, 12:07 AM
Thanks.
I'm not giving up, just ending the experiment.
I think that I will plant the seed in several containers and put them outside in the sun, keep them moist and hope for the best.
Allen
MediaHound
05-28-2007, 09:28 AM
I just had a canna seed come up from over a year ago...
D_&_T
10-16-2007, 08:29 PM
thanks Allen, as we too are trying some of Randy's seeds
Dan & Tara
AllenF
11-18-2007, 02:29 PM
Throughout the summer I had no germination.
Further research seems to indicate that heat in excess of 100* F will kill or damage the seeds ability to germinate.
I may have killed all of the seed on the first day.
I am participating in a second experiment with seed from Randy. I will record results here when there is anything to record.
The 2nd time is a charm, I hope.
Allen
Chironex
10-19-2008, 07:08 PM
So what ever happened to this experiment?
rohsen
08-16-2009, 02:19 PM
i did some experimenting with musa velutina seeds myself according to attached publication. The first time I sterilized the 3 month old M velutina seeds for 2 minutes in 70% ethanol, then for 45 minutes in a 10% household bleach solution. followed by 3 rinses in sterile water. Then i cracked the seeds and took out the embryos with the tip of a scalpel under a stereomicroscope.
and placed them in petridishes containing 1/2 ms medium containing 0.1 milimole of gibberelic acid (34.6 microliter per liter)
the result: severe contamination....
so the 2nd time 4 minutes in ethanol and 20% bleach for 45min, this worked fine nice little plantlets after about 2 weeks, these i used for further micropropagation experiments with varying results. for me this was a very good method to get sterile starting material.
i have attached the article.
also it was found that musa velutina seeds lose viability after about 6 months.
cheers
Dave
Randy4ut
08-16-2009, 03:28 PM
i did some experimenting with musa velutina seeds myself according to attached publication. The first time I sterilized the 3 month old M velutina seeds for 2 minutes in 70% ethanol, then for 45 minutes in a 10% household bleach solution. followed by 3 rinses in sterile water. Then i cracked the seeds and took out the embryos with the tip of a scalpel under a stereomicroscope.
and placed them in petridishes containing 1/2 ms medium containing 0.1 milimole of gibberelic acid (34.6 microliter per liter)
the result: severe contamination....
so the 2nd time 4 minutes in ethanol and 20% bleach for 45min, this worked fine nice little plantlets after about 2 weeks, these i used for further micropropagation experiments with varying results. for me this was a very good method to get sterile starting material.
i have attached the article.
also it was found that musa velutina seeds lose viability after about 6 months.
cheers
Dave
Dave, interesting read to say the least. One thing to throw into the mix, I have had several folks that received some of my seeds in the past to experiment with had them to germinate almost one year later... Go figure. Please, continue to keep us posted on your experimentations...
rohsen
08-16-2009, 04:39 PM
one year eh... well whatever is in these publications is never chiseled in stone. a friend plant breeder of mine tried to grow 20.000 velutina seeds only to have about 5% (!!!) germinate after about a half year. maybe the trick is in how the seeds were stored?
plants never cease to amaze me
dave
coast crab
08-16-2009, 06:19 PM
I'm really confused by all of this effort.
Let me first say that I'm on the Gulf Coast, zone 8b, and velutina is one of the biggest weeds I've ever seen. The first year it bloomed I let it "go to seed" because I wanted to see what would happen. It was cool to watch those fat little bananas pop open and show off those seeds. I eventually cut down the old, bloomed out pstems as new ones came up. Well, for the next 2years I pulled up velutinas from all over my garden. I think the cardinals found them and scattered seeds everywhere and they ALL germinated. I have a friend a few hours away in Florida who feeds his velutinas to his parrots who consider it quite a treat.
As soon as I see the bananas begin to mature I remove that pstem and throw it in the garbage. If anyone ever wants fresh seed just let me know, its usually available from mid summer through November.
Russell
rohsen
08-16-2009, 07:50 PM
Russel,
I understand your confusion, let me explain, we can sell annually about 50.000 musa velutina's maybe even more... if we had them!!! we do sell about 30.000 M basjoo, and as much M sikkimensis as we can lay our hands on plantlets,
usually we buy micropropagated plantlets from different sources, but they keep letting us down. hence all the effort to do it ourselves. Our business is in the netherlands. we have a website www.floresinterra.nl its in dutch. We breed about 250 different plants and are very dependent on irregular micropropagators. this forum is very helpfull to me as it comes to bananas. People have offered to give us seeds before however at the quantities we need it becomes a bit of a problem, fresh seeds germinate no problem but we have tried 25.000 seeds last year with no result whatsoever. Its not that they cost a lot but all the effort man....phew...
We generally grow the plants until the are about 50 cm to a meter. we have a green house about 1 square km. We sell to garden centra and shops not directly to the general public.
hope to have cleared it up... any suggestions on seeds are welcome..
dave
Randy4ut
08-17-2009, 11:22 AM
I'm really confused by all of this effort.
Let me first say that I'm on the Gulf Coast, zone 8b, and velutina is one of the biggest weeds I've ever seen. The first year it bloomed I let it "go to seed" because I wanted to see what would happen. It was cool to watch those fat little bananas pop open and show off those seeds. I eventually cut down the old, bloomed out pstems as new ones came up. Well, for the next 2years I pulled up velutinas from all over my garden. I think the cardinals found them and scattered seeds everywhere and they ALL germinated. I have a friend a few hours away in Florida who feeds his velutinas to his parrots who consider it quite a treat.
As soon as I see the bananas begin to mature I remove that pstem and throw it in the garbage. If anyone ever wants fresh seed just let me know, its usually available from mid summer through November.
Russell
Russell,
Be thankful where you live if you love bananas. There are many folks on this forum that are not as fortunate as you are from a weather standpoint and the velutina is one of the bananas that is hardy enough for some of our more climatically challenged growers. I, for one, live in SE TN, which is a borderline 7a/b, and have grown them for about 4 years now. Love the foliage it adds to my backyard and the fruit is just a bonus.
So, with all this said, I hope you now understand what the "big deal" is with growing them... WE ARE LIMITED TO WHAT WE CAN GROW!!! LOL
coast crab
08-17-2009, 01:37 PM
Oh trust me, I DO understand the big deal! :ha:
And, yes, I do realize just how fortunate I am to not be climatologically challenged. The devotion shown to these plants, especially when I know just how unhappy they are in pots, amazes me. I gotta tell ya, I don't think I'd bother. Lots of other fish in the sea, if you know what I mean. Sorta like me trying to maintain a peony or hosta collection in pots and putting them in the fridge for the winter.
But my actual point was surprise that so much effort was going into velutina seeds and propagation. Again, for me, it seems like for every one seed that hit the ground about five plants came up.
Just passing along my experience - didn't intend to "dis" anyone.
Russell
r3tic
08-17-2009, 01:50 PM
Again, for me, it seems like for every one seed that hit the ground about five plants came up.
Russell
Feel free to send any unwanted plants my way :2766::2766::2766::woohoonaner::2766::2766::2766:
rohsen
08-17-2009, 02:22 PM
i never felt "dis'ed" my friend :goteam:
were all friends here...
dave
coast crab
08-17-2009, 02:39 PM
Glad to hear it!
Just wanted to make sure I hadn't accidentally offended anyone.
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