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Richard
01-16-2012, 08:21 PM
Lately I've seen many internet ads for "non-GMO" seeds. Well of course they are non-GMO! A single bag of GMO seeds would cost you about the same as a new car, and you'd need at least 2 licenses to possess and grow them, plus in some cases you would also owe the supplier a percentage of the proceeds from your harvest. :0491:

Talk about fear-based advertising :ha:

harveyc
01-16-2012, 09:33 PM
I can't think of any GMO seeds marketed to consumers. I don't have to have any licenses to grow RoundUp Read alfalfa but do need to sign a contract with Monsanto, mostly where I agree not to save seed, yada yada. Costs me $6.90/pound and I planted about 2,500 pounds of it in November. I don't eat any of it and cows seem okay with it.

I remember the Flavor Saver (sp?) GMO tomatoes that hit the market 15-20 years ago and it really flopped for some reason. I was controversial but I believe they just weren't as good for shipping as had been hoped.

There are GMO papayas which are controversial and maybe contaminating all of the papayas in Hawaii.

Richard
01-16-2012, 09:54 PM
The boom in GMO Tomato seed is for determinant types grown for the tomato-processing industry. There are about 150000 seeds per pound of tomato seed so the cost per bag can be stunning. The yields per acre are high. The fruit has been bred to taste great as a sauce etc. after pasteurization et al. A grower in Tulare tells me they are not very good tasting straight off the vine.

turtile
01-16-2012, 10:54 PM
There are GMO papayas which are controversial and maybe contaminating all of the papayas in Hawaii.

Contaminating? More like saving the papaya crop in Hawaii! The crop in Hawaii was almost wiped out from a virus. The new variety is resistant.

Hawaii Papaya Industry Association in Hawaii - Rainbow Papaya Story (http://www.hawaiipapaya.com/rainbow.htm)

harveyc
01-17-2012, 12:28 AM
Contaminating? More like saving the papaya crop in Hawaii! The crop in Hawaii was almost wiped out from a virus. The new variety is resistant.

Hawaii Papaya Industry Association in Hawaii - Rainbow Papaya Story (http://www.hawaiipapaya.com/rainbow.htm)

Yes, contaminating. I'm not making a judgement on whether that is good or bad, but there are a lot of angry folks in Hawaii who don't want the pollen from the GMO papaya crossing with theirs.

I'm a commercial grower of GMO crops but still recognize the right of people to grow what they want. Not everybody thinks the Rainbow papaya story is a good one. Genetically modified papaya problematic | The Honolulu Advertiser | Hawaii's Newspaper (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2010/Apr/25/bz/hawaii4250343.html)

dekkard
01-18-2012, 11:07 AM
"Talk about fear-based advertising"

It is not fear based advertising to include facts about seeds, such as their non-GMO nature. It is true that there are some gardeners who wish to avoid GMO seeds, and, unfortunately, don't have the extensive factoid expertise of GMO seeds you seem to possess. Such gardeners could clearly benefit from the non-GMO label especially if they would otherwise choose to not buy seeds as their only alternative to avoid the perceived risks associated with GMO.

Many people could care less about tracking the science or political hype surrounding GMO seeds. However, many gardeners choose to avoid GMO seeds for their own personal reasons and should be given the opportunity to choose what goes into their garden.

I know I don't trust a bunch of Monsanto employed scientists motivated not by public health concerns or food safety but exclusively by profit, all other consequences be damned. Monsanto doesn't care if its product gives me cancer, it only cares about the liability of the cancer being traced back to its product. I appreciate knowing what is GMO, hybrid, heirloom, et. al. I am a consumer and I will choose what I deem an acceptable risk because such a decision is not for some marketing executive to make for me.

93 percent of Americans say they want GMO food labelled at the grocery store. Why not label seeds in a catalog too? If GMO is so safe, don't be sneaky with it, be proud of it and label it. (Tell the FDA to label genetically engineered (GE) foods. (http://www.justlabelit.org)).

Richard
01-18-2012, 11:39 AM
93 percent of Americans say they want GMO food labelled at the grocery store. Why not label seeds in a catalog too? If GMO is so safe, don't be sneaky with it, be proud of it and label it.

I'm certainly not claiming that GMO seeds are safe or unsafe. As a fact though, they are not available to consumers.

One of the issues that surrounds the labeling of GMO foods is the definition of GMO itself. Out here in California there is a large group that wants to include hybrids developed by irradiating pollinated flowers -- a practice that dates back 100 years. This would include many varieties of seedless citrus, thornless limes, thornless berries, and a large host of common crops. The fear-factor is driving force in discussions of "what is GMO". I'm not sure it will be settled anytime soon -- by lay persons or otherwise.

harveyc
01-18-2012, 09:52 PM
Richard is right. GMO seeds aren't sold to consumers being reached by such catalogs so the only reason to make potential consumers worry that other suppliers might be sneaking some GMO seeds to them without disclosing it, even though this is not the case. Including such a statement is creating an unfounded fear.

momoese
01-18-2012, 09:55 PM
Richard, you have links to these adds?

Perhaps they are trying to claim that their seeds are not contaminated by GMO pollen?

Richard
01-18-2012, 10:01 PM
Richard, you have links to these adds?

Perhaps they are trying to claim that their seeds are not contaminated by GMO pollen?

They appear when I'm on bananas.org with regularity. Also you'll see some by googling for seeds (https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=seeds).

momoese
01-18-2012, 10:05 PM
They appear when I'm on bananas.org with regularity. Also you'll see some by googling for seeds (https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=seeds).

First let me suggest you use some sort of filter to remove the adds. There is one for IE too.

Second, I'm not going to click every link in a Google search looking for them, I'm too busy watching fishing videos for that nonsense! ;)

Next time you trip over one just post it up please.

harveyc
01-18-2012, 10:14 PM
Even though I don't see the mention of GMO on their home page, look what comes up in a search where Victory Seeds pops up:

Welcome to Victory Seeds - Rare, Open-pollinated & Heirloom ...
Welcome to Victory Seeds - Rare, Open-pollinated & Heirloom Garden Seeds (http://www.victoryseeds.com/)
No GMOs Here! We are an early signor of the Safe Seed Pledge. All of our rare and heirloom seeds are open-pollinated, non-hybrid and are not treated with ...

Mitchel, if any company knows that the seeds they are selling have been contaminated by GMO pollen, they really can't be marketing that as some other variety as it's a new hybrid. Very few of these seed companies produce their own seeds and the seeds are produced under controlled environments. GMO seeds are produced under very controlled environments as well so they're not going to be mixed with conventional seeds. Again, this is for seeds which are typically marketed to consumers, not something like Canola.

I believe Richard uses Google Chrome. I've tried it and liked it except the lack of filtering of ads drove me crazy. I think there are some plug-ins for it but I'm not sure how well they work.

sunfish
01-18-2012, 10:19 PM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=non%20gmo%20seeds%20for%20sale&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CJEBEBYwBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seedsnow.com%2F&ei=dooXT72kEaaSiQKDkfGhCA&usg=AFQjCNEA8MNIsLvrPmf0j29974bSFe_ESA&cad=rja

All seeds are 100% Non-hybrid, Heirloom, Open-pollinated, and Non-Genetically Modified (Non-GMO). ... Grow Bottle (Basil) – $34.99 Sale; Medicinal Herb Seed Kit – $59.99 Sale; Tomato Variety Pack – $19.99 Sale; Pepper Variety Pack

momoese
01-18-2012, 10:23 PM
Even though I don't see the mention of GMO on their home page, look what comes up in a search where Victory Seeds pops up:



Mitchel, if any company knows that the seeds they are selling have been contaminated by GMO pollen, they really can't be marketing that as some other variety as it's a new hybrid. Very few of these seed companies produce their own seeds and the seeds are produced under controlled environments. GMO seeds are produced under very controlled environments as well so they're not going to be mixed with conventional seeds. Again, this is for seeds which are typically marketed to consumers, not something like Canola.



Well if it's true I still wouldn't call it fear mongering, more like a sales tactic geared towards people who already know they don't want anything to do with GMO. After all, what they are saying is true! "No GMOs Here!"

momoese
01-18-2012, 10:25 PM
You guys ever stop to think that some people might be afraid to buy seeds from a company unless they have a disclaimer saying no GMO's? It's just business.

harveyc
01-18-2012, 10:35 PM
There you go, Mitchel, you've bought into the fear.

I would hope that people would be smart enough to search enough to find out that none of the seed catalogs are offering GMO seeds and that she should shop for the best-tasting varieties, etc. at reasonable prices instead of letting some seed company jack them around.

Richard
01-18-2012, 10:38 PM
Here's one for you Mitchel:
Garden Seed | Vegetable, Herb, & Flower Garden Seeds by Generic Seeds.com (http://www.genericseeds.com/)

momoese
01-18-2012, 10:41 PM
Harvey, you can't really expect busy people who dream of an organic victory garden to spend their time researching GMO seeds now can you? Being ignorant does not change the color of their money and the seed companies know this. They are not creating fear.

momoese
01-18-2012, 10:44 PM
Here's one for you Mitchel:
Garden Seed | Vegetable, Herb, & Flower Garden Seeds by Generic Seeds.com (http://www.genericseeds.com/)

Again, there are selling seeds to a crowd of people who do not want anything to do with GMO but don't have the time to research it. No harm no foul.

harveyc
01-18-2012, 10:45 PM
Sure the companies are creating the fear. When the risk is not present, why mention it?

Okay, I'll play.

Buy your pomegranate plants from Harvey today and the moon will not crash to earth tomorrow!!!

Buy your DDT-free chestnuts here!!!

sunfish
01-18-2012, 10:48 PM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=who%20sells%20gmo%20seed&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.garden-of-eatin.com%2Fhow-to-avoid-monsanto%2F&ei=CJAXT7HeAsiZiQLr94yvCA&usg=AFQjCNFIjXSvceUJgsMq_TNHD7qcW7UVLw&cad=rja

Garden of Eatin' :: How to Avoid GMO/Monsanto

momoese
01-18-2012, 10:49 PM
Sure the companies are creating the fear. When the risk is not present, why mention it?

Okay, I'll play.

DDT free chestnuts would be awesome! Go for it. :goteam:

They are not lying by saying their seeds are non GMO. If the other guy says his are not and you don't where do think the customer is going to go? The only person/company using the fear tactic was the first one to do this. Go after that one!

sunfish
01-18-2012, 10:52 PM
Just Say No to GMO music video www.NaturalNews.com/NoGMO - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnN6FFjZBZQ)

harveyc
01-18-2012, 10:53 PM
My ethics won't allow me to market in a way that creates a fear that is unwarranted. Companies that do are ripping uninformed consumers off.

Richard
01-18-2012, 10:54 PM
I think that when a retail advertiser states "All Seeds 100% Non-GMO" on their main page without stating why, they are knowingly perpetuating fear.

Here's a guy purposely adding confusion to the situation: Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds (http://rareseeds.com/).

momoese
01-18-2012, 10:55 PM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=who%20sells%20gmo%20seed&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.garden-of-eatin.com%2Fhow-to-avoid-monsanto%2F&ei=CJAXT7HeAsiZiQLr94yvCA&usg=AFQjCNFIjXSvceUJgsMq_TNHD7qcW7UVLw&cad=rja

Garden of Eatin' :: How to Avoid GMO/Monsanto

They don't sell seeds.

harveyc
01-18-2012, 10:59 PM
They don't sell seeds.

But they list companies which they think are okay to buy from and companies which they don't think are okay to buy from. Since Monsanto bought Seminis, they think anybody that buys seeds from them (i.e., Burpees), it's not okay to buy from them. I say that's bull.

harveyc
01-18-2012, 11:03 PM
I think that when a retail advertiser states "All Seeds 100% Non-GMO" on their main page without stating why, they are knowingly perpetuating fear.

Here's a guy purposely adding confusion to the situation: Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds (http://rareseeds.com/).

From what folks have written in the tomato forum (Tomatoville), Baker Creek often sends out seeds that are mislabeled. At least the non-GMO label can be considered accurate even though it's misleading.

momoese
01-18-2012, 11:04 PM
I think that when a retail advertiser states "All Seeds 100% Non-GMO" on their main page without stating why, they are knowingly perpetuating fear.

Here's a guy purposely adding confusion to the situation: Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds (http://rareseeds.com/).

They are anti GMO, pro heirloom and organic. If that sells more seeds for them without harming anyone who cares? The people that are clicking on that website are already anti GMO. It's just preaching to quire.

momoese
01-18-2012, 11:05 PM
I can't even keep up with all your posts. You bunch of GMO lovers! :ha:

Richard
01-18-2012, 11:10 PM
They are anti GMO, pro heirloom and organic. If that sells more seeds for them without harming anyone who cares? The people that are clicking on that website are already anti GMO. It's just preaching to quire.

Mitchel, unfortunately it propagates half-truths to new gardeners as well. Every Sunday I have at least a half-dozen brand-new visitors at the market who want to start gardening but their heads are spinning with confusion about all the conflicting information they encounter about "hybrid", "heirloom", "gmo", "organic", "sustainable", etc. It's really sad.

harveyc
01-18-2012, 11:24 PM
I can't even keep up with all your posts. You bunch of GMO lovers! :ha:

I don't love GMOs. I think some GMO products are okay but don't know that I want to be eating any myself, though I don't objecting to eating animals that have eaten GMO grains. I think a lot of the GMO hate out in the public is due to misinformation.

harveyc
01-18-2012, 11:26 PM
They are anti GMO, pro heirloom and organic. If that sells more seeds for them without harming anyone who cares? The people that are clicking on that website are already anti GMO. It's just preaching to quire the choir.

Fixed it for you! :P

Quire | Define Quire at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/quire)

Learn something new every day! :D

momoese
01-18-2012, 11:27 PM
I think a lot of the GMO hate out in the public is due to misinformation.

I think it's due to government corruption and lack of testing.

momoese
01-18-2012, 11:27 PM
Fixed it for you! :P

Guess we know who goes to church here! :ha:

momoese
01-18-2012, 11:29 PM
Mitchel, unfortunately it propagates half-truths to new gardeners as well. Every Sunday I have at least a half-dozen brand-new visitors at the market who want to start gardening but their heads are spinning with confusion about all the conflicting information they encounter about "hybrid", "heirloom", "gmo", "organic", "sustainable", etc. It's really sad.

Well that is a lot of info to deal with. I understand your frustration.

Nicolas Naranja
01-19-2012, 10:43 AM
I know how they make GMO seeds and I am pretty well versed on the science behind it, but I think it is a major cop-out. We spent years breeding insect resistant corn in Florida and we have some varieties that do very well. I think that GMOs in general are safe, but I have major issues with how the corporations have handled the issue. They have blocked research on things they don't want researched and they have heavily funded research on things they want researched. You now have to sign an agreement with biotech companies that you will not publish without their approval. And if you just go and buy their seed and do unapproved research they will sue you for intellectual property violations.

The GMO thing just makes people lazy. Right plant, right place, right time. When I planted my banana farm I had 8 different varieties, not because I wanted to, but rather as a hedge against panama disease and sigatoka. But, thinking that way doesn't keep the chemical companies and seed companies in business. I have been doing research for 5 years now and I see how things get funded. It's nearly impossible to get funding for pest management strategies that don't involve chemicals, while getting money from insecticide companies is easy. And frankly, the extension agent isn't going to take a farmer deep see fishing to tell him about the benefits of timely planting and biological controls. The chemical rep for Syngenta has a boat for that specific purpose.

Richard
01-19-2012, 01:18 PM
Right plant, right place, right time.

Exactly.

And frankly, the extension agent isn't going to take a farmer deep see fishing to tell him about the benefits of timely planting and biological controls.

In California, they only have funding to inspect conventional farming and not the certified-organic growers. Once consequence of this is that certified-organic produce that ends up in the stores has 4 times the pesticide residue of conventional produce in the stores.

Nicolas Naranja
01-19-2012, 04:03 PM
In California, they only have funding to inspect conventional farming and not the certified-organic growers. Once consequence of this is that certified-organic produce that ends up in the stores has 4 times the pesticide residue of conventional produce in the stores.

You guys must have a different extension system. Ours don't really inspect. You call them up if you have a problem or bring in a problem to them and they will diagnose. Several times a year they usually put on classes for the growers. But, those classes almost always revolve around pesticides and are sponsored by pesticide companies. I've presented research at several of them. The whole system is set up to support agrichemical companies. The agrichemical company sponsors the research and then uses the University of Florida name to lend creedence to the results. I'll give it to the sugarcane industry, they have spent a lot of money over the years looking into non-chemical IPM. The biggest pests we have are controlled by massive releases of parasitic wasps and fallow flooding.

Richard
01-19-2012, 04:13 PM
You guys must have a different extension system. Ours don't really inspect. ...

We have several extensions. One has the mission you described. Two others are county extensions of the state pest and pesticide branches. The former sets up sticky traps and checks every 2 weeks for vectors such as GWSS. The other administers pesticide applicator license tests and monitors spraying of pesticides in the "danger" category. They are also supposed to do yearly inspections of all registered sites but this only occurs at sites who report above a certain level of pesticide usage. Further, they do not inspect certified-organic sites after the initial visit unless some violation is reported. This might change because the leaf samples from produce at retail locations has shown that the certified-organic industry is grossly under-tested.

sunfish
01-21-2012, 07:02 PM
Buy Chia Seed (Salvia Hispanica) Products at Nuts.com (http://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=BpXBNeFAbT-62AZHenQSn_uhskenrggLRpKP4L8CNtwGgwh4QAhgCILLT9gEoAzgAUMXKkvwFYM ne-IbIo-gZoAH74q__A7IBD3d3dy5iYW5hbmFzLm9yZ7oBCTcyOHg5MF9hc8gBAdoBP2h0dH A6Ly93d3cuYmFuYW5hcy5vcmcvb25saW5lLnBocD9zb3J0PXVzZXJuYW1lJm9yZG VyPWFzYyZwcD0yMOABAoACAagDAcgDF-gDjAfoA-0F9QMAAwDA9QMAAAAQiAYB&num=2&ggladgrp=814161264407010749&gglcreat=16744462718213840174&cid=5Gi0e8U5xNxa_5_w418CRYAB&sig=AOD64_3CTCAmDIHp9NJHHJ4FoAUhB7gfNA&client=ca-pub-3228975878575222&adurl=http://nuts.com/cookingbaking/chia-seeds/&nm=13)

Richard
01-21-2012, 08:25 PM
Buy Chia Seed (Salvia Hispanica) Products at Nuts.com (http://nuts.com/cookingbaking/chia-seeds/)

The Aztecs used Salvia potus and the Mayans used Salvia hispanica. I wonder which seed they are really selling?

lkailburn
02-08-2012, 02:40 PM
I think that when a retail advertiser states "All Seeds 100% Non-GMO" on their main page without stating why, they are knowingly perpetuating fear.

Here's a guy purposely adding confusion to the situation: Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds (http://rareseeds.com/).

I've watched quite a few documentaries covering Percy's trial, what exactly about his story makes you feel that he is purposely confusing people?

-Luke

Richard
02-08-2012, 04:37 PM
I've watched quite a few documentaries covering Percy's trial, what exactly about his story makes you feel that he is purposely confusing people?

My reference was to Baker Creek. Percy Schmeiser is not associated with them and I did not intend to imply anything about him.

lkailburn
02-08-2012, 10:36 PM
Ah my misunderstanding then. I do actually purchase many seeds through baker creek. They carry a great selection of heirlooms!

-Luke

Richard
02-08-2012, 10:40 PM
Ah my misunderstanding then. I do actually purchase many seeds through baker creek. They carry a great selection of heirlooms!
-Luke

Have you ever tried Tomato Growers Supply Company (http://www.tomatogrowers.com) ?
Their pricing and selection is hard to beat.

lkailburn
02-09-2012, 12:27 PM
I've got their catalog right here!

-Luke

harveyc
02-09-2012, 01:05 PM
Ah my misunderstanding then. I do actually purchase many seeds through baker creek. They carry a great selection of heirlooms!

-Luke

I've been to Baker Creek's Petaluma store which they opened up a few years ago. They do have a good selection. I am a little concerned about them after reading comments at the forums on tomatoville.com from people who received mislabeled or poor quality seeds from them. The melon seeds I bought from them were fine, though.

venturabananas
02-10-2012, 02:07 AM
The GMO thing just makes people lazy. Right plant, right place, right time.

Do you really believe this? Let's take an extreme case, bananas and BBTV. First, as far as I know, there are no resistant cultivars. Second, breeding edible bananas is extremely slow, because so few produce seeds and even when they do, they make few. Let's assume there are no bananas resistant to BBTV so you can't breed that trait into existing varieties. Are you going to wait for a gene to mutate? I hope you're patient. And have potentially thousands of years to wait. Imagine now that you wanted to grow bananas in Africa, where they are a staple source of carbohydrates for much of the impoverished populace, and BBTV had wiped out most of the banana production. You'd still think making a GM banana with a gene for BBTV resistance was just lazy?

We act as if heirloom varieties and "traditional" hybrids are somehow "natural". They would never have occurred in nature without "artificial" selection by humans. They really aren't all that different from GM crops.

All this said, I completely agree that there are lots of great varieties of food plants that are resistant to diseases, better suited to certain climates, etc. and could be planted to avoid use of pesticides, have more sustainable agriculture, etc. But in extreme cases, such as my fabricated BBTV example, I would have no problem with making, growing, or eating GM crops.

lkailburn
02-10-2012, 03:01 PM
They really aren't all that different from GM crops.


Overstatement of the year right there. GMO's are NOTHING like heirlooms. C'mon you know this. Letting nature breed, and selecting the best to save seed for next year is no where close to gene splicing, and injecting with gold or tungston particles or lasers to FORCE genes at the cellular level.

Now you bring up a good point that there is POTENTIAL morality with GMOs, however I highly doubt that ANY of the current creators or owners of GMOs or their patents honestly are doing it for morals or for helping the planet in any way shape or form.
Wallets are their bottom line

-Luke

sunfish
02-10-2012, 03:15 PM
GloFish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GloFish) :woohoonaner:

harveyc
02-10-2012, 03:31 PM
I suppose people with morals work for free?

sunfish
02-10-2012, 03:38 PM
I suppose people with morals work for free?

No they live off tax payers money

Richard
02-10-2012, 03:53 PM
... GMO's are NOTHING like heirlooms.

U.S. case law has established that heirloom seed must meet two requirements: (1) be off-patent, and (2) reproduce true-to-phenotype from seed.

There are GMO heirlooms -- although I'm not aware of any that are tomatoes.

Most seed sold to consumers are heirloom -- even if they aren't labeled as such. For example, the commercial seed source for Burpee's Better Boy Tomato is from a stable hybrid, not F1 breeding.

C'mon you know this. Letting nature breed ...

Check out what nature does with plants in areas where naturally occurring radioactive material is at the surface! This is where the 200 year-old technique of producing seedless and thornless varieties of plants comes from.

Now you bring up a good point that there is POTENTIAL morality with GMOs, however I highly doubt that ANY of the current creators or owners of GMOs or their patents honestly are doing it for morals or for helping the planet in any way shape or form.

Your statement would be correct if you said "the majority" instead of "ANY". There is on-going GMO work at UC Davis plus commercial firms in San Diego and Raleigh (maybe more) that are concerned with food quality and sustainability.

No they live off tax payers money

Actually many work at for-profit firms.

lkailburn
02-10-2012, 03:57 PM
I suppose people with morals work for free?

Absolutely not, and that's not what I implied, nor was it the point of my post. But you can't justify some of the things these mega agro corps are doing just based on "well a company has to make money".

-Luke

Richard
02-10-2012, 04:03 PM
... But you can't justify some of the things these mega agro corps are doing ...

In my opinion, the worst of them is Agrium Inc. (http://www.agrium.com/)

lkailburn
02-10-2012, 04:26 PM
U.S. case law has established that heirloom seed must meet two requirements: (1) be off-patent, and (2) reproduce true-to-phenotype from seed.

There are GMO heirlooms -- although I'm not aware of any that are tomatoes.


A non-patented GMO?

-Luke

Richard
02-10-2012, 08:42 PM
A non-patented GMO?

-Luke

Plant patents expire, hence the term "off-patent".

venturabananas
02-11-2012, 01:20 AM
Overstatement of the year right there. GMO's are NOTHING like heirlooms. C'mon you know this. Letting nature breed, and selecting the best to save seed for next year is no where close to gene splicing, and injecting with gold or tungston particles or lasers to FORCE genes at the cellular level.

I fully appreciate the difference between breeding plants and selecting traits among progeny and creating GMOs, but philosophically, they are not that different. Both involve humans meddling with nature. You say "letting nature breed". That is not what has happened with heirlooms. They have been produced by humans breeding plants for certain traits. Those plants do not occur in nature and most likely could not persist without human assistance. There is nothing natural about it, unless you take the philosophical viewpoint that humans are part of nature and anything we do is natural (which you could defend, rationally).

Viruses and plasmids have "forced" genes at the cellular level for millions of years. Must be part of nature, right?

momoese
02-11-2012, 01:45 AM
I fully appreciate the difference between breeding plants and selecting traits among progeny and creating GMOs, but philosophically, they are not that different. Both involve humans meddling with nature. You say "letting nature breed". That is not what has happened with heirlooms. They have been produced by humans breeding plants for certain traits. Those plants do not occur in nature and most likely could not persist without human assistance. There is nothing natural about it, unless you take the philosophical viewpoint that humans are part of nature and anything we do is natural (which you could defend, rationally).

Viruses and plasmids have "forced" genes at the cellular level for millions of years. Must be part of nature, right?

Selective breeding and gene splicing are very different.

venturabananas
02-11-2012, 01:50 AM
Selective breeding and gene splicing are very different.

They are very different in how they are accomplished. But, they are similar in that they both involve humans combining genes in ways that nature had never managed to.

momoese
02-11-2012, 02:01 AM
They are very different in how they are accomplished. But, they are similar in that they both involve humans combining genes in ways that nature had never managed to.

A human looking at his plants and selecting the best one that grows or tastes better does not in any way compare to gene slicing for herbicide/pesticide resistance.

venturabananas
02-11-2012, 02:24 AM
A human looking at his plants and selecting the best one that grows or tastes better does not in any way compare to gene slicing for herbicide/pesticide resistance.

It's not all that different then breeding and selecting varieties that are herbicide and pesticide resistant. It's mainly about the mechanism that places the new combination of nucleotides in the DNA -- mutation and selection or gene splicing.

A point a friend who has made transgenic organisms made to me was that GM organisms are often not very stable. They have molecular mechanisms that cause them to tend to lose the inserted genes.

venturabananas
02-11-2012, 02:26 AM
A human looking at his plants and selecting the best one that grows or tastes better does not in any way compare to gene slicing for herbicide/pesticide resistance.

And gene splicing is a natural process. Viruses have been doing it for millions of years.

momoese
02-11-2012, 02:29 AM
It's not all that different then breeding and selecting varieties that are herbicide and pesticide resistant. It's mainly about the mechanism that places the new combination of nucleotides in the DNA -- mutation and selection or gene splicing.

A point a friend who has made transgenic organisms made to me was that GM organisms are often not very stable. They have molecular mechanisms that cause them to tend to lose the inserted genes.

Making a plant resistant to a chemical cocktail your company created and comparing it natural selection is not the same no matter how you try to spin it.

venturabananas
02-11-2012, 02:33 AM
Making a plant resistant to a chemical cocktail your company created and comparing it natural selection is not the same no matter how you try to spin it.

You called it natural selection, but what has produced all our food plants is artificial selection. Natural selection would produce plants resistant to that cocktail of chemicals given enough time. It probably wouldn't be something you wanted to eat. :ha:

venturabananas
02-11-2012, 02:35 AM
You called it natural selection, but what has produced all our food plants is artificial selection. Natural selection would produce plants resistant to that cocktail of chemicals given enough time. It probably wouldn't be something you wanted to eat. :ha:

Just like natural selection has produced antibiotic resistant bacteria, which are likely to be a serious threat to human health in the near future. Don't hang out in hospitals, where they use all those antibiotics and the antibiotic resistant bacteria evolve.

Richard
02-11-2012, 02:39 AM
A human looking at his plants and selecting the best one that grows or tastes better ...

That is what we call a cultivar. A hybrid is the result of natural or induced breeding.

Making a plant resistant to a chemical cocktail your company created and comparing it natural selection is not the same no matter how you try to spin it.

I agree with that. However, most GMO's do not fall into this category of yours.

venturabananas
02-11-2012, 02:51 AM
Just to clarify, I'm not advocating the use of GMOs. I just think we need to think about these things rationally. There is nothing inherently evil or wrong with GMOs, and there are situations where they might make a lot of sense. For example, in introducing disease or pest resistance.

Richard
02-11-2012, 02:55 AM
Just to clarify, I'm not advocating the use of GMOs. I just think we need to think about these things rationally. There is nothing inherently evil or wrong with GMOs, and there are situations where they might make a lot of sense. For example, in introducing disease or pest resistance.

One of the groups here in La Jolla is working on GMO algae to produce pharmaceuticals.

venturabananas
02-11-2012, 03:01 AM
One of the groups here in La Jolla is working on GMO algae to produce pharmaceuticals.

All the big pharmaceuticals are using GMOs to make drugs these days, from what I can tell. For example, insulin.

fmu65
02-11-2012, 12:30 PM
One of concerns I have heard has been that GMO crops are already creating resistant pests and diseases. I think that is a potential short-term concern that should be addressed. The long-term effect of GMOs on human health has not (to my knowledge) been sufficiently explored in scientific research. Most of the data used to confirm safety comes from those who have created the GMOs and are dependant on the income.

Richard
02-11-2012, 03:17 PM
One of concerns I have heard has been that GMO crops are already creating resistant pests and diseases. I think that is a potential short-term concern that should be addressed.

Depending on the crop, many farmers would agree with you about GMO herbicide-resistant plants. Industry publications have been reporting that the nuisance weeds in farming regions (e.g., southern central valley of CA) have become so resistant to herbicides that farmers have gone back to manual controls (e.g., harrowing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrow_(tool))). This is an expense for the farmer that the GMO herbicide-resistant plants were intended to eliminate. Consequently these farmers are no longer going to the added expense of purchasing the GMO herbicide-resistant seed.

On the otherhand, I doubt you'll see them retract from using crops engineered for high-yield -- especially in the case of corn. Presently the corn farmers are focused on high-fructose, but as the world demand for protein increases this will undoubtedly change.

Another issue is contamination of gene-pools. On the small scale there is the much-publicized issue of one farmer's crop cross-pollinating a neighboring farmer's seed crop. On the global scale there are GMO-variants of species that easily cross-breed escaping into the wild -- such is the case with Rapeseed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapeseed).

The long-term effect of GMOs on human health has not (to my knowledge) been sufficiently explored in scientific research.

I'm not sure the public will ever be satisfied on this issue.

I can understand health concerns regarding GMO crops whose actual end-product is chemically different than the non-GMO counterpart. I believe the largest contributor here is cotton, which we all ultimately have daily skin contact.

I do not understand concerns with regard to GMO crops whose product is chemically identical at the molecular level with the non-GMO counterpart. There are many examples here including wine and corn syrup.

I also do not understand concerns with non-toxic GMO crops fed to livestock that are later butchered for human consumption. The altered genes simply do not survive the digestion process.