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Clare_CA
10-29-2011, 02:36 PM
Hi All, we had some wind come up yesterday, and I have some very tall Cardaba's with fruit that I didn't stake. Should I try to stake this now? Is the fruit a total loss now?

I haven't had this happen before, but I've seen the various tools made for staking bananas. I have two other stalks with fruit as well on this one. One bunch should be almost ripe soon.

Thanks for the help.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/102911010.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/102911008.jpg

sunfish
10-29-2011, 02:41 PM
I believe pitangadiego says leave it as it is and they should still mature

pitangadiego
10-29-2011, 08:32 PM
Let it be. You can't help it, you can't fix it. You can only make it worse. If there is still continuity or connection in the flower stem, it will be fine. If there is no connection left, there is hope only if they were already mature. if they have been up there for 4-5 months, they might still ripen even if the stem is broken all the way through - otherwise probably not.

I hate it when that happens.

Clare_CA
10-29-2011, 10:25 PM
Okay. Thanks so much. I'll leave it and just see what happens. This particular bunch is fairly new. It flowered and fruited less than a month ago. I do have an older bunch on another stem that has been there for awhile so I should get to taste that fruit. Was it you that said that you were giving up on tall bananas? I think I am too. I like the shorter ones better. Thanks for the help. I know this happened to you a few times.

pitangadiego
10-30-2011, 10:40 AM
Definitely not me. All of my best performers and producers are tall. Most of the dwarfs are Cavendish varieties which do not do well here.

Clare_CA
10-30-2011, 12:08 PM
Jon, I'm glad you brought this up because my Cavendish is bearing fruit that is tiny, and the first bunch I had turned black. When you say that the Cavendish doesn't do well here, is it because the fruit production is poor? Is Grand Nain in that group (because it hasn't fruited for me yet). How does Raja Puri do for you? Sorry about all the questions but your climate and my climate are pretty similar, and I'm trying to decide which mats to get rid of since growing space is limited. Thanks.

pitangadiego
10-30-2011, 06:23 PM
In my experience, Cavendish family plants probably need to be where it is no less than 50F at any time during the year. They all see to lose vigor over the winter (I have maybe 2 nights at 38F, and the rest 40+), so that when the flower/fruit in the Spring and Summer, they do not have sufficient energy reserves to make a decent sized fruit, or they tend to choke for the same reason, So when I can have 50# bunches on Misi Luki (or whatever it really is), on every stalk, every time, for me that is the way to go. My Cardaba (or whatever it is) doesn't make a big a fruit but is respectable. Goldfinger is quite reliable, as well, and so forth. But these are all tall, or taller bananas.

Misi Luki will usually have green leaves 6 months, maybe a year after I pick the fruit. The cavendish types are often lucky to have a leaf left by the timed the fruit ripens - just less vigor.

I occasionally see people who have some sort of a Cavendish that is doing well, and maybe it is just a better strain or variant, but I have had more than a few over the years all with the same poos results.

Yug
10-30-2011, 06:58 PM
If that had happened to one of my orchids, I would have propped the stem back up, and supported it, to uncrimp the 'veins' in the stem that the juices circulate through. I'd then watch to see if is was surviving or dying. I don't know if that would work with a nanner, though. The size would be an issue.

Natureboy
10-30-2011, 07:35 PM
In my experience, Cavendish family plants probably need to be where it is no less than 50F at any time during the year. They all see to lose vigor over the winter (I have maybe 2 nights at 38F, and the rest 40+), so that when the flower/fruit in the Spring and Summer, they do not have sufficient energy reserves to make a decent sized fruit, or they tend to choke for the same reason, So when I can have 50# bunches on Misi Luki (or whatever it really is), on every stalk, every time, for me that is the way to go. My Cardaba (or whatever it is) doesn't make a big a fruit but is respectable. Goldfinger is quite reliable, as well, and so forth. But these are all tall, or taller bananas.

Misi Luki will usually have green leaves 6 months, maybe a year after I pick the fruit. The cavendish types are often lucky to have a leaf left by the timed the fruit ripens - just less vigor.

I occasionally see people who have some sort of a Cavendish that is doing well, and maybe it is just a better strain or variant, but I have had more than a few over the years all with the same poos results.

I've been growing Dwarf Cavendish in Central Florida for about 8 years. It's always a reliable bearer of huge bunches (100+ fruit) as long as it doesn't die to the ground in the winter. The pstem seems to turn to mush at around 28F. If we have normal winters where it doesn't really get below freezing, it will be fine. Even pups that get a start early sometimes produce a harvest in fall, just before it gets too cold (around December).

Maybe it is drier out there in your part of CA and the Cavendish don't like that? Mine have always grown well (except they are weak-rooted), however I dug my last mat up and just replaced with Dwarf Namwah (thanks to Worm Farmer!). The unimpressive flavor of the bananas compared to other possible varieties was the main driving force. - Nate

Clare_CA
10-30-2011, 09:51 PM
Thank you Jon, Yug, and Nate. Your advice is golden! I'm just going to leave the stalk bent as that is the easiest option for me. I actually have three other bunches on this mat so, if this one is a loss, there's still the other three. I'm not even sure that I'm going to keep this banana because I really don't like that it casts so much shade, and I really don't have anywhere else to move it to. I'll have to reserve judgment until I taste the fruit however:-)

Jon and Nate, I'm so glad that you shared your growing experience with the Cavendish banana with me. I did notice that the first bunch of fruit after winter turned black, and the second bunch is very small and on a stalk that seems to be dying rapidly. The third stalk with fruit looks small but better, but we are going to be in the 40's soon so maybe it will never ripen. I think I'm even colder than you, Jon, with a couple of months of nights in the high 30's in January and February. It's good to cross this one off the list. Thanks again.

Richard
10-30-2011, 10:45 PM
I've been growing Dwarf Cavendish in Central Florida for about 8 years. ...

In central Florida, the number of active growing days is much greater than here in southern California. Your latitude is about 28 North. The southern-most latitude in California is 32.5 North, which is the latitude equivalent of Murrelis Inlet, South Carolina.

pitangadiego
10-30-2011, 11:44 PM
Clare,

I wouldn't give up on the ones you have growing. Let them get established, and see how they do. I was at Quail Gardens in late Spring, and they had a dwarf plantain that was fruiting. All the plantains that I have tried have fizzled out after a winter or two. I am trying one of theirs to see how it does. My suspicion is that they are actually warmer than I am in the winter, because they are a mile or two from the ocean. I think that keeps their winter minimum temps higher than me. They are also cooler in the summer, so have less growing time, but my theory is that their presumed warmer winter temps allow the plants to survive in better health during the winter.

My point is that everyone has different micro-climates and it is good to experiment a little and see what does and doesn't work at your location. Sometimes we learn by experience that things are not the way we expected - probably because we didn't completely think it through, or maybe because it is counter-intuitive.

venturabananas
10-31-2011, 12:47 AM
Yes, the microclimates really seem to matter. I have a dwarf red that is right next to my house and it does no worse than the "tougher" varieties nearby (Orinoco, Misi Luki, dwarf Namwah, etc.). If I recall correctly, Jon hasn't had great experiences with dwarf Brazilian, but for folks near me (where it is a little colder than Jon's) it does great. Like Jon says, let your own experience be your guide.

That said, Clare, when you have ripe Cardaba fruits, I wouldn't mind trying one to see if they are worth growing. I know the "Cardaba" from Jon (which might be my favorite banana plant so far -- great growth rate, great shape) is not actually a Cardaba.

Natureboy
10-31-2011, 09:06 AM
In central Florida, the number of active growing days is much greater than here in southern California. Your latitude is about 28 North. The southern-most latitude in California is 32.5 North, which is the latitude equivalent of Murrelis Inlet, South Carolina.

Thanks, Richard... I would have assumed that because the USDA zone is similar to North Florida, the growing days would be similar. Apparently, that's not the case? What is *much greater*? Any idea how many active growing days in Southern CA vs. Central Florida? Any sources on this? Just curious. I know a lot of citrus and other fruit is grown in Southern CA (not that citrus compares to bananas). Some subtropical fruit even seems to do better in CA than FL from what I've read.

I would echo the comments about figuring out what grows best in your area and not trying to force things into inappropriate climates. I've found there's just too much work and disappointment! :waving:

venturabananas
10-31-2011, 11:33 AM
Nate, I think growing days depends on the the plant you are growing, and there is huge variation within a single USDA zone because they are very broad. For example, bananas generally aren't going to grow much at all if the temps don't get above the 50's, but most citrus will. From the perspective of bananas, North FL has more growing days than So Cal because of the warmer average temperatures during the warm part of the year. Nick posted something about degree days somewhere, which probably provides the best estimate of growth rate. For example, it turned out that his spot had something like 3-4 times more degrees than my place in So Cal, which explains (at least in part) why his bananas grow so much faster.

Clare_CA
10-31-2011, 01:20 PM
Thanks very much for this advice. I'm still pretty new at growing bananas. I think I planted my first round of bananas in September and October of 2009 and some later than that.

I guess I'm a little frustrated because a few of them have not fruited yet. My Grand Nain, Misi Luki, and Double Majoi are non-producers so far. And I'm pretty sure I have four other Dwarf Cavendish bananas planted in various places that are non-producers also. I only have a half acre here, and I clearly planted too many bananas so I want to try to figure out which are the best and take out maybe half of what I have.

Mark, the Cardaba has a bunch that has been there for a while and should be ripe anytime now. The bananas are very large and plump. They look even larger than store-bought bananas. I don't know if I have the real thing here. About half my bananas aren't what they are supposed to be. My Cardaba came from Home Depot.

Thanks again for the advice. I'll try to be patient and figure things out. I totally agree that location, zone, and microclimate have a huge affect on plants in general.

venturabananas
10-31-2011, 02:56 PM
Clare, your Cardaba looks like the real deal. Cardaba is a Saba variant, so it's no surprise they are one of your taller ones!

I have some Pisang Awak type Misi Luki that are really slow growers and some that are really fast. Definitely seems to be a microclimate thing in my small yard. Not surprisingly, the ones that get more sun are growing faster. I wouldn't get rid of your Misi Luki since it and its close relatives seem to do well in our cool environment. You might try a new primo spot when you rip out some of those Cavendish varieties!

Clare_CA
10-31-2011, 04:01 PM
Sounds good. I'll send you a private message when that Cardaba is ready. I'll give you a few hands if you want to sample it if you want to come over to my house. I know it is supposed to be a plantain, but I was going to try it as a dessert banana, and so I'm waiting for a little sign of yellow before I harvest the bunch. I could harvest it now, but I'm not absolutely sure that I should just yet. I'm not exactly sure when the flower first appeared, but I know the fruit has been there at least since July.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/bananas/101711067.jpg

venturabananas
10-31-2011, 04:23 PM
Sounds great. Thanks.

Natureboy
10-31-2011, 06:54 PM
Nate, I think growing days depends on the the plant you are growing, and there is huge variation within a single USDA zone because they are very broad...

The USDA zones are established generally around the lowest average annual temps. Therefore, the amount of overall "warmth" throughout the year could still vary greatly b/n two regions, both in zone 9. I think I got it now...

Sorry, didn't mean to highjack the thread! :)

Clare_CA
10-31-2011, 07:05 PM
No worries, Nate:-) I'm not possessive about my threads:-)

venturabananas
11-02-2011, 12:20 PM
Hi Clare, I hope your banana plants are standing up to the ridiculous winds we're having today. So far, mine are all shredded but nothing has blown over.

Clare_CA
11-02-2011, 01:39 PM
Hi Mark, thanks of thinking of me today. The bananas are taking a real beating here. One of the Cardabas with new fruit is leaning heavily. My leaves are getting shredded too. I'm glad nothing has blown over yet, and I hope yours stay upright too. The plumerias, on the other hand, have sustained some pretty bad damage. I hate the wind now since I started gardening. Someone told me that it might rain tomorrow. That would be good.

pitangadiego
11-02-2011, 02:00 PM
See:
http://webebananas.com/bpix/BP952-34.jpg
http://webebananas.com/bpix/BP952-20.jpg

caliboy1994
11-02-2011, 03:38 PM
Hi Clare, I hope your banana plants are standing up to the ridiculous winds we're having today. So far, mine are all shredded but nothing has blown over.

Horrible winds at my house too today. Good thing my plants are still short.

venturabananas
11-02-2011, 04:03 PM
Caliboy, so far we have you beat by 20 mph on the wind gusts: some have been over 50 mph around our houses, "only" 30 mph so far in Granada Hills.

Jon, does propping cause any problems with the plants being unable to sway in the wind? I guess I had always though of it as way of keeping the plants from falling over under the weight of the bunch, rather than keeping the plant from blowing over.

sunfish
11-02-2011, 04:06 PM
:pics:Horrible winds at my house too today. Good thing my plants are still short. :woohoonaner:

caliboy1994
11-02-2011, 04:59 PM
:pics: :woohoonaner:

Who knows? Maybe I'll upload a vid of just how windy it gets up here? :D

sunfish
11-02-2011, 06:13 PM
Who knows? Maybe I'll upload a vid of just how windy it gets up here? :D

Please do .I keep hearing about all the wind.Nice and calm here.:nanadrink:

caliboy1994
11-02-2011, 07:44 PM
Please do .I keep hearing about all the wind.Nice and calm here.:nanadrink:

You're very lucky then. The biggest limiting factor when it comes to growing things in my yard is probably wind. Normal Santa Ana wind speeds are 35-45 mph here.

sunfish
11-02-2011, 08:09 PM
You're very lucky then. The biggest limiting factor when it comes to growing things in my yard is probably wind. Normal Santa Ana wind speeds are 35-45 mph here.

Good reason to grow only dwarf varieties.All my tall varieties are being remove once I've had one fruit. There are plenty of shorter varieties to grow.:nanadrink:

Clare_CA
11-02-2011, 08:38 PM
I'm trying not to be broken-hearted about a bunch of stupid plants, but my place is a wreck.

Here are some pictures taken today:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211001.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211002.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211003.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211004.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211006.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211007.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211008.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211009.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211010.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211011.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211012.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211013.jpg

sunfish
11-02-2011, 08:52 PM
I'm trying not to be broken-hearted about a bunch of stupid plants, but my place is a wreck.

Here are some pictures taken today:

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211001.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211002.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211003.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211004.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211006.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211007.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211008.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211009.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211010.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211011.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211012.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l153/Clare_CA/Wind%20damage/110211013.jpg

That's to bad.It may get worse when the leaves get heavy from rain.

Clare_CA
11-02-2011, 08:58 PM
Ugg. Worse? I'll probably cut off a lot of leaves tomorrow before the rain. They're thrashed anyway. That's a dwarf Brazilian that toppled over there in one the pictures. The others are my variegated bananas and the Cardaba. I think the tall ones are going to leave my garden. The chickens were scared to death when the second Cardaba collapsed. I don't really want supports everywhere just to hold them from collapsing even though it's a great tool to use. I think I'd just rather have dwarf bananas.

pitangadiego
11-02-2011, 09:03 PM
Propping can help in the wind, if it is propped on the downwind side. One of the secrets is the wire or string though top of the prop. If tied tight enough to the stem it will allow the prop to stay attached, even if the tree blows the opposite way and lifts the prop off of the ground. The 45 deg elbow in the middle allows the legs to be angled outward, which, with the trunk, forms tripod. At some point nothing is going to help, if the winds are strong enough.

Another reminder for people with wind-thrashed trees: Anything green is good, no matter how ugly the leaves look. Don't cut off green leaves, folded, shredded, or otherwise. Ugly green leaves still provide energy to the plant. If they turn yellow or brown, then remove them.

sunfish
11-02-2011, 09:05 PM
Ugg. Worse? I'll probably cut off a lot of leaves tomorrow before the rain. They're thrashed anyway. That's a dwarf Brazilian that toppled over there in one the pictures. The others are my variegated bananas and the Cardaba. I think the tall ones are going to leave my garden. The chickens were scared to death when the second Cardaba collapsed. I don't really want supports everywhere just to hold them from collapsing even though it's a great tool to use. I think I'd just rather have dwarf bananas.

I wonder about planting them deeper.I did this with a red that keep leaning and it helped a lot.I planted a goldfinger real deep and it isn't going anywhere,pain to dig pups but better then falling plants

caliboy1994
11-02-2011, 09:18 PM
Caliboy, so far we have you beat by 20 mph on the wind gusts: some have been over 50 mph around our houses, "only" 30 mph so far in Granada Hills.

I guess you have me beat...for now. See, I live in Granada Hills North, nestled right by the mountains. My dad says that average Santa Ana wind speed is 35-45 mph, but that gusts can get well over 50 mph. I just checked on my plant and the leaves are a bit shredded, and that's in a sheltered spot. I know that things can get faster, as we've had entire trees get blown over in our area.

caliboy1994
11-02-2011, 09:30 PM
Good reason to grow only dwarf varieties.All my tall varieties are being remove once I've had one fruit. There are plenty of shorter varieties to grow.:nanadrink:

Nobody said I only have to grow dwarf varieties...There are a few sheltered spots by the pool where I'm planning on putting in Saba, 1000 Fingers, Ice Cream, and possibly Praying Hands.

sunfish
11-02-2011, 09:39 PM
Nobody said I only have to grow dwarf varieties...There are a few sheltered spots by the pool where I'm planning on putting in Saba, 1000 Fingers, Ice Cream, and possibly Praying Hands.

How tall is 1000 finger ?

caliboy1994
11-02-2011, 10:10 PM
How tall is 1000 finger ?

Says on wiki 8-20 feet tall, depending on the conditions. So maybe 10-12 feet here? Also says that it's wind tolerant. The main thing I'm worried about on this one is the raceme getting wind damaged.

venturabananas
11-03-2011, 02:07 AM
Ugh, so sorry Clare. If misery loves company, then rest assured you have company in Ventura. Lot's of shredded and snapped leaves. Not a pristine banana leaf to be found in this town! None of mine toppled or folded the p-stem, but that's only because they are shorter (younger) than yours. I'll have to think about what to do next year when my tall ones have grown to full size. I guess get rid of them is an option, but not one I'll go with until I have some blown over. At least they are not like real trees, that take years and years to recover. A saw a few real trees blown over around town today, and lots of fallen limbs.

Dalmatiansoap
11-03-2011, 06:39 AM
I have to say that that looks like a Home to me. I had a situtation like that in my yard for few times this year allready :(.
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/dalmatiansoap/IMAG3203.jpg

pitangadiego
11-03-2011, 08:47 AM
1000 Fingers is about 10-12' tall at top of pseudostem. It is also fairly slender, so often will bend/fold under its own fruit weight.

Clare_CA
11-04-2011, 12:39 PM
Thanks, everyone. I worked in the yard nearly all day yesterday. I used wire to tie up the variegated banana that was leaning so badly. One reason it might have done that was because I just removed a whole bunch of pups from the base of it. Another variegated banana did bend at the p-stem and rested on my AeAe in the ground, which was not damaged. The other benders were Brazilian and Cardaba. My 1000 fingers had beautiful super wide leaves before the wind, but they all got bent in the wind. Two of the benders are Cardaba with fairly new fruit. I guess I will just leave them and see what happens. A stalk with older fruit did not fold, but it is pretty bent over. I should harvest that bunch any day now. I picked just one to ripen inside to see if it is ready yet.

Thanks, Mark. I'm glad you didn't have any toppled ones. I'm definitely going to pull out the Cardaba mat not just because it topples but because it casts too much shade on the entire garden and is too large for this small lot. My Raja Puri is going too. If you and/or Andrew (or anyone wanting to come to pick them up) want to get either one, let me know.

caliboy1994
11-04-2011, 03:10 PM
That's the one disadvantage of living in Southern California. WIND, WIND, WIND!

sunfish
11-04-2011, 03:15 PM
No wind here

caliboy1994
11-04-2011, 03:24 PM
No wind here

No more here either. Just rain. I should probably put tarps around the bases of my plants soon. Don't want them rotting over the winter.

sunfish
11-04-2011, 05:53 PM
:08: Windy here now but no more tall varieties to worry about :woohoonaner:

Clare_CA
11-04-2011, 06:18 PM
Breezy here and cold today with just a tiny bit of rain. Hope there is more rain coming. All the wind dries everything out really quickly.

sunfish
11-04-2011, 06:32 PM
Breezy here and cold today with just a tiny bit of rain. Hope there is more rain coming. All the wind dries everything out really quickly.

Lots of rain here and some pretty good wind gust.

Clare_CA
11-05-2011, 12:43 PM
I hope your bananas are okay with the wind gusts yesterday, Tony.

sunfish
11-05-2011, 12:53 PM
I hope your bananas are okay with the wind gusts yesterday, Tony.

I don't worry about them anymore.If they blow over it makes it easier to decide which to remove.:ha:

Clare_CA
11-05-2011, 02:49 PM
I hear you. I'm starting to wish that mine would all blow over:-)

sunfish
11-05-2011, 02:57 PM
I hear you. I'm starting to wish that mine would all blow over:-)

I think ten varieties is a good number.

venturabananas
11-05-2011, 07:18 PM
I'm sure Jon would say you need 10 x 10 varieties, like him!

sunfish
11-05-2011, 07:26 PM
I'm sure Jon would say you need 10 x 10 varieties, like him!

I got to 65 :08:


http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/317395_120138704762960_100152733428224_119888_1439303863_n.jpg

Dalmatiansoap
11-06-2011, 04:20 AM
I got to 65 :08:


http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/317395_120138704762960_100152733428224_119888_1439303863_n.jpg

:ha::ha::ha:

harveyc
11-06-2011, 07:33 AM
I'm hoping for a good cold winter to thin mine out.

Clare_CA
11-06-2011, 12:25 PM
Yeah, ten varieties is pretty good, especially if they will fruit every year. My goal is to stay with the ones that have the best tasting non-tiny fruit that isn't too tall or imposing for my garden. I also want to stay away from ones that pup too frequently. If I had a lot of land, that would be a different story. I will keep the pseudo-Ice Cream even though it is tall because I have a place for it where it won't shade too much of the garden. Next year I'll know for sure which ones have to go, and I can probably get rid of at least half of the varieties that I have. I have some interesting ones that are still small that haven't fruited yet such as 1000 fingers, Kru, Pisang Ceylon, Malango, and we'll have to see how those do.