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View Full Version : Growing Windmill palms in zone 6?


laserlight
04-10-2011, 02:10 PM
I just found out Im in zone 6 and I want a palm. I read in a thread that there are members growing Windmill palms in zone 6 too. Can they stay outside in the winter or do they need to be protected like banana plants? I would really like to learn more about them cuz they look really cool. =)

Bob
04-10-2011, 04:26 PM
Get the biggest plant you can afford and make sure to protect it in winter for the first 3 years at least. Mine took a beating this year though they survived. Some years even with the best protection in our zone you may as well consider them a "deciduous palm". A needle palm might be a better choice, after the brutal winter we just had that one came through for me with no damage at all. Good luck with yours.

El Manolo
04-10-2011, 05:15 PM
Hmm here we had several long cold winters in a row. And most if not all Trachycarpus fortunei survived. Some looked pretty bad after the winter. But they recover fast. We had lots of snow and temperatures of -18 c° long cold wet periods. -10 c° doesn't do much damage. Perhaps you can find a local grower. Cause palms grown in a colder climate are much hardier and don't need to adjust. It's best you plant yours in spring so they can settle.

laserlight
04-10-2011, 06:41 PM
@ bob. what does "deciduous palm" mean? You have a needle palm and it survived? I dont have to get a windmill cuz I can get any palm. I only wanted windmill cuz I thought it liked winter. Do you have any pictures of your needle palm? Thank you for the information about needle palms. =)

@ el manolo. we can easy get colder than -18c here. eskimos could live here. Its spring here now so I need to get one fast and now i think could be a needle palm. Thank you for the information about planting them in the spring. =)

bananadude
04-10-2011, 06:45 PM
I am in Zone 5 and I planted 26 of them last spring, that I grew from seed....the only thing I did for protection was throw some leaves on them....there is a pic of them in my gallery....they all came thew just fine.....and we had a WICKED winter here to!!

laserlight
04-10-2011, 07:39 PM
@ bananadude. Yea last winter was wiked but i like snow so its all good. =D
That windmill palm looks really big. i like those purple looking canas too. =)

JuniPerez
04-10-2011, 08:04 PM
A needle palm is definitely much hardier than the T. fortunei. I have one in my front yard and it did great this winter. I also have a Miniature Chusan palm (T. wagnerianus) planted next to it which I grinned from seed a few years ago and it does great... if any leaves burn and fall of (the defoliation makes it what I think he is calling deciduous) it grows back during summer...

Zone 6 here too.

The Hollyberry Lady
04-10-2011, 09:30 PM
Kevin, here's a needle palm I got from Bob...


http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo193/hollyberrylady08/2nd%20album/DSC00366.jpg


You asked him to post a picture but I didn't want you to have to wait for 6 months to get a reply! :ha:



: )

laserlight
04-10-2011, 09:48 PM
Yay! more zone 5 and 6 people. i really like that everybody here isnt in California and Florida.

@ juni. Thx for the information. i still need to read more about palms and I couldnt find any in the wiki. But I can probably learn a lot just reading the other plants threads. =)

@ hollyberry lady. lol! 6 months? That could be tooooo long. Thx for posting the picture! That looks really cool too. =)
Im going to try to get a needle palm and a windmill palm. We always have tons of dead leafs here and I can pile them up all over them before winter.

RobG7aChattTN
04-10-2011, 10:00 PM
What you need are some Needle Palms (Rapidophyllym hystrix) and Sabal minor. They don't really form trunks, but a windmill palm (Trachycarpus fortunei) will need protection every year to survive zone 6 but will form trunks. Sabal 'Birmingham' has been grown in zone 6 and will eventually form a trunk and is probably cold hardy enough to go unprotected unless a really cold spell hits. Maybe Sabal 'Brazoria' as well. Check out SEPalms.org and especially the link to the Cold Hardy Palms and Subtropical message board for lots of information.

palmtree
04-10-2011, 10:06 PM
Im really impressed with windmill palms cold tolerance! I only threw a plastic garbage bin over mine and after a low temperature of around 7F and more subfreezing cold then I think I have EVER experienced here before, it still survived with only some damage to the lowest fronds. My other 2 windmill palms were protected the same way only with a frost cloth and some x-mas lights around it for heat and they werent damaged one bit (they actually grew a little). Fantastic cold hardy palms! One of mine has silver undersides that looks really nice when you take a night picture with a camera that has a flash.

JuniPerez
04-10-2011, 10:06 PM
Another site for palms is palmtalk.org
Some Walmart locations sell cold hardy palm trees from Costa Farms in blue containers labelled Cold Zone.... nice needle palms, windmills, and sabals for under $20

laserlight
04-10-2011, 10:48 PM
Thx guyz for all the information! I need to decide on 2 to grow but if that sabal minor one is only $20 at Walmart I can get that one too next weekend. Ill check that SEPalms.org tomorrow after school cuz I dont have any time left tonight. I want to learn more about that Birmingham palm and Brazoria palm. =D

Gardener972
04-10-2011, 10:51 PM
I agree on the Needle Palm.... it is the most hardy of all the palms.

dottie
04-11-2011, 06:47 PM
Smithsonian palms and bananas | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dctropics/2650599427/)

This link shows one in front of the Air and Space Museum in DC. I think DC is in zone 7.

laserlight
04-11-2011, 10:51 PM
@ dottie. That looks great! They should put flowers around it too. If they can grow that in BC I can grow it here. Thx for that link. =)

JuniPerez
04-12-2011, 07:52 AM
Here's a Trachycarpus fortunei growing in Brooklyn NY (Botanic Gardens): Palm Tree | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/robincaution/2672942900/).

Another one you might consider looking into is T. wagnerianus, which IMHO is a cooler looking palm... the leaves are shorter and it is more resistant to crown rot than most windmills (crown rot is more likely to kill a palm tree than the cold itself). Then there's T. takil, which some say is still in "experimental stage", but I've noticed far less leafburn in winter on my takil than on my fortunei.

laserlight
04-12-2011, 05:23 PM
Yay! Pages that arent blocked. =|
@ Juni. Those are incredible. =D Id like to have a T. wagnerianus but I dont know if I can get permissions to grow a whole tree. I will ask. They should give those shorter names. It would save a lot on copy and paste. Whats a crown? Is that the top leafs? Thx for the picture. I googled and found pictures of the other 2. =)

JuniPerez
04-12-2011, 07:38 PM
Those are the scientific names... common names are windmill palm (Trachycarpus fortunei), miniature chusan palm (Trachycarpus wagnerianus), Kumaon Palm (Trachycarpus takil), Pindo Palm (Butia capitata) and so on. The are all trees though. The needle palm can form a truck too (I've seen them) but it takes a very long time because most of it will be underground.

The crown is where all the fronds grow out of. That's pretty much the life of the palm tree. If that rots and dies out, the whole tree goes.

laserlight
04-13-2011, 07:03 AM
That's a lot easier to remember. I made a list on my pc. I found a diagram of a banana plant in the wiki and it has a corm. I read that if it gets wet and cold that it will rot. And somebody said that young palms are harder to keep alive. That must mean that crown can stay too wet if it's too close to the ground. I think I understand the "rot" thing now. I really like the palms that have leafs shaped like fans!
Thanks for all the great information! =)

RobG7aChattTN
04-14-2011, 06:38 AM
Keep in mind that what most people call Trachycarpus takil is actually now called Trachycarpus fortunei 'Naini Tal'. The true takil is still in the experimental stage because they only recently realized that what they were selling as takil was the wrong palm. There really is a true T. takil, but there are almost no true takil in cultivation older than about 3 years old. So if you see a takil that has split fan leaves it is almost surely 'Naini Tal'. The real seed only became available in 2008 and it was almost all bad. In 2009 better seed became available but the germination rate was still around 3%. I haven't heard of anyone getting a good germination rate with any true takil seeds yet. Probably fresh seeds just aren't available. They might just have a low rate of germination naturally.

JuniPerez
04-14-2011, 07:19 AM
Yes, I did hear about the Takil issue... some were even selling Waggie palms as takil. I got mine at hardytropicals. I took closeup pictures of all the features; trunk, petioles, leaves, everything I would think of and sent it to someone who could help identify, but never got a reply. If what you say is the case, then mine would likely be naini tal since I bought it as a 5gal palm about 3-4 years ago. It still hase very good winter hardiness compared to my other palms.

RayS
04-14-2011, 01:15 PM
This place has a wide selection of cold hardy palms including the alleged
Trachycarpus takil.

Trachycarpus takil | Tejas Tropicals (http://tejastropicals.com/palms/trachycarpus/trachycarpus-takil)

RobG7aChattTN
04-14-2011, 09:29 PM
The good news is 'Naini Tal' might be the most cold hardy of them all. It certainly isn't true takil. There seem to be so few real takil only one or two people in the U.S. seem to have them and even then not very large. Largest available for sale would have maybe four strap leaves.

JuniPerez
04-15-2011, 09:52 AM
The good news is 'Naini Tal' might be the most cold hardy of them all. It certainly isn't true takil. There seem to be so few real takil only one or two people in the U.S. seem to have them and even then not very large. Largest available for sale would have maybe four strap leaves.

Yes, I've found that it is the one with the least damage through winter... and it grows fast compared to my normal T. fortunei palms. I searched for Naini Tal and my palm DOES match the "droopy leaf tips" described on the Naini Tal... so, even if it is, I am still happy with it and would recommend it to anyone looking for a beautiful, hardy palm tree.

natej740
04-16-2011, 08:37 AM
There is a windmill palm 15 minutes from my house(zone 6) that i noticed 11 YEARS ago in southern Ohio. It has a huge trunk now its probably 7 feet of trunk or more. I finally grew the nerve to talk to the owner a few weeks ago and they have small ones for sale and other plants in a greenhouse. Ive always heard if you want a hardy one find a good northern source and not one from florida where the winters arent to bad. Id say seed grown trees from that tree should be really hardy. Next time i go down there ill try to get a pic of it!

buckeye5755
04-16-2011, 10:40 PM
There is a windmill palm 15 minutes from my house(zone 6) that i noticed 11 YEARS ago in southern Ohio. It has a huge trunk now its probably 7 feet of trunk or more. I finally grew the nerve to talk to the owner a few weeks ago and they have small ones for sale and other plants in a greenhouse. Ive always heard if you want a hardy one find a good northern source and not one from florida where the winters arent to bad. Id say seed grown trees from that tree should be really hardy. Next time i go down there ill try to get a pic of it!

Do they have like a site or somewhere they sell their Palms? I had two this past winter, but didn't protect them well at all. Had some family issues at the beginning of winter and didn't get them protected correctly, and I may have lost them both, as both had spear pull.

I recently bought some seeds to grow, but wouldn't mind finding a source up here in Ohio to get a Palm or two.

laserlight
04-16-2011, 11:42 PM
There is a windmill palm 15 minutes from my house(zone 6) that i noticed 11 YEARS ago in southern Ohio. It has a huge trunk now its probably 7 feet of trunk or more. I finally grew the nerve to talk to the owner a few weeks ago and they have small ones for sale and other plants in a greenhouse. Ive always heard if you want a hardy one find a good northern source and not one from florida where the winters arent to bad. Id say seed grown trees from that tree should be really hardy. Next time i go down there ill try to get a pic of it!

Awesome! I've been to Cincinnati, it's not very far. That's a really good idea to get one thats already growing up here. Is that owner in Cincinnati or somewhere else? =)

JuniPerez
04-17-2011, 01:47 PM
Ohio is the location where Dr Francko was testing cold hardy palm trees, bananas, and other plants and trees for us zone pushers. Good book on the subject and is coming out with an updated one soon.

sashaeffer
06-27-2011, 08:05 AM
Waiting for my first Windmill Palm to arrive(zone 5/6) and have seen where members use Christmas lights to help over winter them, but what I didn't catch was if they just laid them around the ground around the base of the trunk? or did they wrap them around the tree and cover them up with insulation?

What is the most important part to keep "warm" during the winter months?

Scott/Omaha

RobG7aChattTN
06-27-2011, 08:41 AM
The thing to protect is the crown, right where the spear comes out. The roots will be protected with just a foot thick layer of mulch. What you might have missed is that the "Christmas Lights" you use are the big C-9 lights. In your climate you might also need to warm the trunk. Lots of folks use the same heaters that they sell to keep pipes from freezing. You don't want to wrap too tightly with anything because trapping too much heat (and moisture) is a bad idea as well. Ideally people build a structure around the whole palm and use a thermostat to keep the temp just above freezing. I've never had to protect that much, but when I've used the C-9 lights I just wrapped them around the crown and only turned them on during cold spells (with no additional wrapping of any sort). Try the Cold Hardy Palm and subtropical board for better help with this question (you will have to sign up first, but it will come in handy later as I'm sure you will have more questions).

sashaeffer
06-27-2011, 08:51 AM
Thanks Rob,

I did sign up to be full member this weekend, but didn't see where or how to start new thread for my question. In other forums I belong to there is a tab that says "new thread" but don't see one here.

JuniPerez
06-27-2011, 09:05 AM
I just have about 6"-12" of mulch around the base. I've heard of folks using Christmas lights all over the trunk & crown (not the base), or pipe-heating cables. Depending on the kind of Trachy you have, you want to keep it a little warmer than its reported hardiness. I keep some of my palms in a porch that gets no colder than the mid teens F. They suffer a little, but always recover. Some go to extremes by keeping them too warm and I feel that using that method prevents them from acclimating to the cold.
For example, I was told not to let my pindo palms get colder than about 20°F... I let them get colder and colder each year. Last winter they experienced temperatures in the teens for many days out in the snow before I brought them into this cold room for the rest of the season. About 30% leaf damage after a while, but they're shooting up new spears like there's not tomorrow.

sashaeffer
06-27-2011, 09:18 AM
Juni...so you have yours potted I would assume. How tall are they? I've thought about just potting mine when it arrives and do something like you, and keep it in garage in the winter the first few years to let it get "used" to the cold. My garage is insulated and unless I leave the garage door open for a long period of time will only drop into the mid 30's. That is what I might do the first couple of years I'm thinking now.

The tree I ordered from TyTy is supposed to be like 5-7 feet tall.

Thank you!

JuniPerez
06-27-2011, 09:44 AM
My tallest potted Trachycarpus is a T. fortunei about 2ft of trunk with leaves reaching up to about 4ft. The Butia Capitatas are potted as well, those I've never measured the trunks alone, but the fronds reach up to about 4½ft. I also have a Trachycarpus wagnerianus in-ground which is only about 5-6 inches tall. That one I don't protect except for mulch and freezepruf spray. Needle palm doesn't get any protection at all.
I don't know if these palms would store well in darkness, so I'd make sure they get SOME light during winter just in case... unless someone else has had experience with dark overwintering.

sashaeffer
06-27-2011, 09:48 AM
My garage has windows in the 3 doors and just by chance I just had installed 12 can lights put in the ceiling, with what is called "daylight" CFL flood lights that has the spectrum of daylight. I could just leave them on during the day I suppose, off at night just like outside.

JuniPerez
06-27-2011, 09:57 AM
Maybe just for a few hours per day... but first check and see if they overwinterable in the little light your windows would offer. Palmtalk.org is where I got for palm advice. Just keep in mind that some folks there will tell you certain palms aren't possible to be grown in your zone... don't let that deter you. There is always an oddball zonepusher who does what others couldn't.

Ueberwinden
06-27-2011, 01:45 PM
If you want cold hardy palms check out my friend Brian William site google Brian's Botanicals. Brian is located in Louisville KY and he will ship them to you or if you would like to drive it you can pick them yourself. I'm in Florence, Ky so I'm about an hour north of him, he has a very nice operation, I plan on making a trip down to see him soon.

Michael

TommyMacLuckie
06-30-2011, 09:27 AM
This is a good rule of thumb site for cold hardiness with palms: Palm Tree Care and Common Palm Tree Names (http://www.junglemusic.net/palms/)

RobG7aChattTN
06-30-2011, 01:44 PM
Thanks Rob,

I did sign up to be full member this weekend, but didn't see where or how to start new thread for my question. In other forums I belong to there is a tab that says "new thread" but don't see one here.

It is just down at the bottom of the page, but might not be there until you are a member and are signed in.

RobG7aChattTN
06-30-2011, 01:52 PM
My tallest potted Trachycarpus is a T. fortunei about 2ft of trunk with leaves reaching up to about 4ft. The Butia Capitatas are potted as well, those I've never measured the trunks alone, but the fronds reach up to about 4½ft. I also have a Trachycarpus wagnerianus in-ground which is only about 5-6 inches tall. That one I don't protect except for mulch and freezepruf spray. Needle palm doesn't get any protection at all.
I don't know if these palms would store well in darkness, so I'd make sure they get SOME light during winter just in case... unless someone else has had experience with dark overwintering.
I know that my friend Randy (Randy4UT here on the board) overwinters queen palms in his unheated garage with only florescent bulbs for light and they do fine. He overwintered a Trachy in the same way this past winter and it fared actually a bit worse. I'd say you could keep them outside in pots most of the winter and only bring them in during cold spells. I'd say anything over 15F would be fine even though palms planted in the ground get protection from the soil and take cold better. You would want to make sure not to allow them to warm up too much though when you bring them in. I think that messes up their dormancy and is part of the reason why windmills don't grow well in the midwest with those wildly fluctuating temps in the winter.

saltydad
06-30-2011, 05:49 PM
Thanks Rob,

I did sign up to be full member this weekend, but didn't see where or how to start new thread for my question. In other forums I belong to there is a tab that says "new thread" but don't see one here.

If you click on to the forum you want to post in, then click on forum Tools, the drop down will have Start a New thread.

sashaeffer
06-30-2011, 08:25 PM
Oh, I got it figured out. Thanks.

Scott