View Full Version : Last night burned bad
Nicolas Naranja
12-15-2010, 03:36 PM
Everything that was under 5' tall got toasted last night, so I've got about 1200 very ugly looking plants. On the bright side, the plants with fruit came through OK.
mushtaq86
12-15-2010, 04:37 PM
:pics:
Kostas
12-15-2010, 05:22 PM
I am very sorry for that Nicolas. At least the fruit came through ok!
What was last night's minimum? Was the pseudostem affected or only the leaf blades?
mushtaq86
12-15-2010, 05:25 PM
Everything that was under 5' tall got toasted last night, so I've got about 1200 very ugly looking plants. On the bright side, the plants with fruit came through OK.
Was it just the leaves.
Dean W.
12-15-2010, 05:44 PM
Sorry to hear it...
Nicolas Naranja
12-15-2010, 06:32 PM
Small Dwarf Puerto Ricans
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=39378&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39378)
Taller Dwarf Puerto Ricans
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=39377&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39377)
Dwarf Nam Wahs
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=39376&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39376)
FHIA-17s
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=39375&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39375)
Nicolas Naranja
12-15-2010, 06:38 PM
I don't know how cold it got and I'm not 100% sure it was last night that did them in. Everyone I have talked to up there says it was about 35-36 last night, but there was no wind. When I went up there with a handheld Monday night the wind was blowing hard and my handheld was reading between 28 and 30, a normal thermometer was reading 30 about 1 mile down the road away from the lake. I think the taller plants just had leaf burn, but real small ones I fear may have been killed outright.
Olafhenny
12-15-2010, 09:33 PM
Hi Nicolas,
wind or no wind, I cannot see how any plant can sustain that kind of damage at above freezing temperatures. It takes ice crystals, which form within cells and crush their structure to create that damage, and not even hurricane strengths winds can accomplish that at temperatures even a fraction above freezing.
Now, when the temps sink below 0^C (32^F) , wind suddenly becomes an important factor, as the faster subfreezing air brushes by the leaves, the faster it will cool and cause the formation of ice crystals within the cells of the leaf.
You are correct, when you assume. that the damage may have occurred prior to the night in question, because the damage only becomes evident after it thaws again. During the frost period the ice crystals still support the leaf structure, but when it thaws, everything crumples. – Just toss a lettuce leaf into your freezer. You will see, that it still looks okay, when you first take it out, but it will quickly turn soft and collapse thereafter.
Best,
Olaf
Nicolas Naranja
12-15-2010, 09:45 PM
Bananas are a little bit different than other plants, they will actually get damaged at above freezing because the sap congeals at low temperatures. Wind can burn leaves, I've seen it with my own eyes in the middle of summer. The question for me is, was it frost last night or was it an actual advective freeze, which is pretty unusual within 1000 feet of lake Okeechobee.
Hi Nicolas,
wind or no wind, I cannot see how any plant can sustain that kind of damage at above freezing temperatures. It takes ice crystals, which form within cells and crush their structure to create that damage, and not even hurricane strengths winds can accomplish that at temperatures even a fraction above freezing.
Now, when the temps sink below 0^C (32^F) , wind suddenly becomes an important factor, as the faster subfreezing air brushes by the leaves, the faster it will cool and cause the formation of ice crystals within the cells of the leaf.
You are correct, when you assume. that the damage may have occurred prior to the night in question, because the damage only becomes evident after it thaws again. During the frost period the ice crystals still support the leaf structure, but when it thaws, everything crumples. – Just toss a lettuce leaf into your freezer. You will see, that it still looks okay, when you first take it out, but it will quickly turn soft and collapse thereafter.
Best,
Olaf
Olafhenny
12-15-2010, 11:06 PM
Hi Nicholas,
I imagine, that it would take quite some hot and dry weather t "burn" banana leaves, i.e., dry them out and that is highly unlikely in this time of the year.
I do not know anything about sap gelling in banana leaves, but I would imagine, that as soon as the temperature rises, the gel would liquefy again? From my perspective of ignorance on the subject, I find it difficult to believe, that the gel would actually destroy the leave structure, other than through starvation over a substantial period of time.
I would still put my money on an unexpected brief period of frost in the early morning hours of a clear day. But, hey, I have been wrong before, especially when I did not know what I was talking about. :)
again.
Best,
Olaf
Nicolas Naranja
12-16-2010, 07:33 AM
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/119751/bananas-temperature-response.pdf
Hi Nicholas,
I imagine, that it would take quite some hot and dry weather t "burn" banana leaves, i.e., dry them out and that is highly unlikely in this time of the year.
I do not know anything about sap gelling in banana leaves, but I would imagine, that as soon as the temperature rises, the gel would liquefy again? From my perspective of ignorance on the subject, I find it difficult to believe, that the gel would actually destroy the leave structure, other than through starvation over a substantial period of time.
I would still put my money on an unexpected brief period of frost in the early morning hours of a clear day. But, hey, I have been wrong before, especially when I did not know what I was talking about. :)
again.
Best,
Olaf
rick2001
12-16-2010, 09:15 AM
Nicolas I'm very sorry for you and your 'nanas....
But is it normal to reach such freezing temps in Florida ??? It is supposed to be a subtropical area....
coast crab
12-16-2010, 10:54 AM
I don't know how cold it got and I'm not 100% sure it was last night that did them in. Everyone I have talked to up there says it was about 35-36 last night, but there was no wind. When I went up there with a handheld Monday night the wind was blowing hard and my handheld was reading between 28 and 30, a normal thermometer was reading 30 about 1 mile down the road away from the lake. I think the taller plants just had leaf burn, but real small ones I fear may have been killed outright.
Nicolas,
We had some terrible nights here too last week and this week. Last Saturday I cut burned/blackened foliage off of everything (I know, but I don't want to look at that mess all winter), and we went to 24 here Tuesday morning and woke up to 64 this morning!
The first damage that showed up was on the plants outside of my oak canopy. It wasn't freeze damage as much as it was frost damage. I remember nursery friends telling me that if there is wind, there won't be frost, which is a good thing for them. It's those still, damp nights that can do some real damage to tender plants even without an actual freeze. That wind can be a life saver above freezing, but all bets are off below freezing. Maybe this is what happened, you may have been hit a couple of frosty nights in a row. From that picture your plants are in the wide open with no protection.
Russell
Nicolas Naranja
12-16-2010, 11:38 AM
Nicolas I'm very sorry for you and your 'nanas....
But is it normal to reach such freezing temps in Florida ??? It is supposed to be a subtropical area....
No, it is very unusual to have such low temps especially this early in the year. Apparently we broke some 50 year old records. And my farm is just east of a very large body of water. It's been a troubling past 2 years with freezes. Florida tends to go through freeze cycles and every few decades we will have several freezes year after year. In the late 70s it snowed in Miami and then there were harsh freezes several times in the 80s culminating in the 89 freeze which destroyed the citrus industry. It actually froze my pool as a kid. After that there were only 2 minor freezes until 2009.
John O
12-16-2010, 12:34 PM
Tuesday night / Wednesday early morning was bad for me also. All my Canna have collapsed, most / all Thai Black burned, all Siam ruby burned, all Misaluki burned, all Dwarf Cavendish burned, all Basjool burned, all Ensete Maurelii burned collapse plus even Arboricola Trinette got frost burn on the tips. I was hoping for a better winter in Fl. (Pinellas County) this year. Doesn't look good for the nursery if spring isn't a bang out year.
John
Olafhenny
12-16-2010, 11:15 PM
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/119751/bananas-temperature-response.pdf
Thank you Nicholas, this is a very interesting article and I made sure to file it away. Having so far only 7 months of experience with only the M Basjoo, I need all the information I can get and this was a bundle of that.
Unfortunately the article, while discussing the impact of low temperatures on the fruit, it did not go into much detail about how low temperature affects leaves. However, if the fruit can be harmed by low, but above freezing temperatures, even during relatively brief exposures. it is safe to assume, that the leaves are similarly susceptible.
In my case the Basjoo sustained some damage, to the upper leaves only, after a light frost, while the lower, more protected ones remained still in reasonable shape.
Let us hope, that the rest of the winter will remain warmer and friendlier toward your bananas.
Best,
Olaf
rick2001
12-17-2010, 02:57 AM
Apparently we broke some 50 year old records. A
It's the same here in Rome..... I can't even remember the last time we reached -4° celsius ... especially in December.
Even the Basjoos suffered the last few days' chill.
Nicolas Naranja
12-17-2010, 08:21 AM
Apparently I had some frost in my backyard, which I don't believe has happened since 1989. I've noticed some of the grass has dried out and died and the broadleaf weeds are black.
TommyMacLuckie
12-17-2010, 10:17 AM
Nicolas, I looked up the weather history for your area and it was the morning of December 15th it got down to 30F.
That's pretty bad for that far south. It got down to 26F here in Mandeville, LA (only 35 in New Orleans). I've been cleaning up dead banana fronds - thousands of 'em - for days now. I'll be finishing up all the tall stuff today. It's a lot of work but only for a few days.
All the fruit that was out got zapped. 99% of what got badly damaged in January did not get to mature at all this year. And now approximately 11 months to the day? later, another zapper.
Where is the so called global "warming" when it seems we're just getting colder and colder spells like this? Where is this supposed La Nina that gives the SE US a warmer and wetter winter on average?
All worthless myths!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was playing on the beach in Fort Lauderdale in...1977? 1979? when it snowed. I was just a kid.
Nicolas Naranja
12-17-2010, 02:46 PM
We tend to have some incredible microclimates along the lake shore. There is a weather station about a mile from the lake that measured 30, the one at my work which is 5 miles from the lake measured 25. At my house about 200' from the lake shore it was 34. The closest official weather station to my farm measured 34 as well, but it is about 2 miles south.
mushtaq86
12-17-2010, 04:29 PM
Sorry about that Nick.
Jack Daw
12-17-2010, 05:49 PM
Where is the so called global "warming" when it seems we're just getting colder and colder spells like this? Where is this supposed La Nina that gives the SE US a warmer and wetter winter on average?
All worthless myths!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, Tommy, I wouldn't go as far as calling it myths. I guess that nobody on the forum is a climatologist with data available for an extensive period of time... etc. You know what I mean. Where's that warming? Mainly in the southern Northern Hemisphere and Southern Hemisphere.
The effects visible at your or my latitude don't really reflect global warming per say, but precipitation changes, dry/wet period changing, weather extremes etc - those are what is visible. And considering the amount of precipitation in the southern America and Africa this year, floods in Pakistan and India, 100°F drought in Russian plains lasting for weeks, 2 significant volcano eruptions in the northern and one in the southern hemisphere... this year ought to be extreme.
Even so, climate science doesn't reflect short term extremes, it reflects long term trends in general. And global, because it is measured globally. So if N.America, Europe and Asia get colder, but Africa, South America and Australia get significantly hotter, it still, in general, counts as global warming.
Cold wave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_wave)
It's the same here in Rome..... I can't even remember the last time we reached -4° celsius ... especially in December.
Even the Basjoos suffered the last few days' chill.
For Italy, search the winter records of 1985-1987. ;)
Human memory is prone to subjective errors. Historical records should reflect the real status.
Darkman
12-18-2010, 10:27 AM
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/119751/bananas-temperature-response.pdf
Awesome link. Being a first year grower this was very informative.
Thanks
Nicolas Naranja
12-20-2010, 04:53 PM
Just looked at the records that go back to 1924 and found that since January 1990, there have only been 4 hard freezes (below 28). Two of them have happened in the past 2 years. I was quite surprised to find that during 2 periods we were very freeze prone 1956-1966 and 1977-1989
TommyMacLuckie
12-20-2010, 08:26 PM
I know it's based on averages, the whole 'global warming' thing, over the course of what, since 1890s or so, something like that. But the reality is in one calendar year, literally 12 months, month 1 and month 12, I've had to cover up, which means "hard freeze". I do not consider that 'normal'. Maybe I've just not adjusted to living where I do from where I did live, which was New Orleans. It's a whole different thing 24 miles across the lake.
But back to the 'global warming' thing. That just doesn't add up to "warming" to me. I know the term 'global warming' is not accurate, as it should be more along the lines of 'global change'. That it actually involves extremes, not constants, not averages - and certainly what one should not expect.
But with the supposed La Nina in action it shouldn't theoretically get cold. Right?
That's how it's been hyped to believe with the weather casts on the news. And that leads to people BELIEVING that they don't need to take precautions. Etc. Now, of course, pay attention to the weather cast at 5 and 10 but come on, stop saying it's going to be 'above average' - which for the Gulf Coast means a relatively "warm winter"!!!!!! Because suddenly if I'm not home...and it gets down to 26...that does not add up to the hype of 'warmer than average winter' and so on. I can't leave my plants in my studio for 3 weeks if I'm not home. Right?
Not so however. I need to get a sun lamp and just stick it out. Low of 29F Sunday morning for the Northshore, which means for where I live it will be 31-34F. So how do I play that one? I'll end up putting everything back in the studio just to be safe.
I need to get my hot house built. Maybe in January when I have some time ha ha.
Olafhenny
12-20-2010, 10:12 PM
But with the supposed La Nina in action it shouldn't theoretically get cold. Right?
.
Actually not quite, it depends on where you live. And it mostly affects the regions along the Pacific Rim, though El Niño seems to reduce, while La Niña is reputed to increase the frequency and severity of hurricanes on your side of the continent.
See: El Nino La Nina (http://library.thinkquest.org/5818/elnino.html)
But keep in mind, that you are dealing with meteorology, like astrology not really an exact science. ;)
Best, Olaf
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