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venturabananas
11-20-2010, 02:18 AM
We are fortunate to have many experts here to help identify bananas, but it sure would be helpful to learn that key characteristics "they" (you might replace "they" with Gabe) use in making identifications. I teach fish taxonomy, so I appreciate that identification can be quite complicated, but I also know that there are key morphological characteristics that you know to look at to narrow things down.

Is there a guide to the characteristics of different subgroups of edible bananas. I understand some of the basic traits that differ between M. acuminata and M. balbisiana, but I really wouldn't know how to distinguish a "Pome" from a "Pisang Awak" from a "Silk".

Anyone know of a guide to banana ID?

Thanks.

Gabe15
11-20-2010, 11:27 AM
I'm sure there are some simple guides somewhere, I'll look around my books and notes for some. But I can't recall anything I've read that has been terribly helpful in this matter, it's really all come from looking very closely at many different flowering bananas (in real life) and figuring out what is different, what is significantly different, what similarities are important, and correlating all of that with published information. Also, there is the problem that there are sometimes few commonalities between all cultivars within a subgroup.

The concept of the subgroup itself is not perfect either, and there is more work to be done. In fact, at the last meeting of the Musa Taxonomy Advisory Group, we discussed how subgroups should be defined based on morphology and agreed to begin forming the very thing you are seeking, so perhaps in the future it will be developed. For now, if you look around, you may find some information on specific well known subgroups, particularly the East African Highland Bananas (EAHB), Plantain, Cavendish, Gros Michel and Maoli/Popo'ulu.

jjjankovsky
11-20-2010, 05:16 PM
I'd like to know of such a guide also...but in the mean time, how about a guide or two concerning the fish in my area?...southwest coast of Mexico, as we catch many different types off the rocks and haven't learned their names.

thanx, and thanx for letting me hijack your thread! LOL

venturabananas
11-20-2010, 06:42 PM
jjjankovsky,

This guide is a good one for fish in your area. It has great photos.

Reef Fish Identification: Baja to Panama by Paul Humann and Ned DeLoach [] (http://www.fishid.com/nwp/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=11)

Good fishing.

jjjankovsky
11-20-2010, 07:15 PM
thanx...books are difficult to buy down here...any online stuff?

venturabananas
11-20-2010, 08:06 PM
Here's an online fish guide for your area. Now we need a banana guide.

Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute - Shorefishes of the Tropical Eastern Pacific (http://biogeodb.stri.si.edu/sftep/)

sunfish
11-20-2010, 08:13 PM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=16&ved=0CDwQFjAFOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mexfish.com%2Ffish%2Ffish.htm&rct=j&q=Reef%20Fish%20Identification%3A%20Baja&ei=EGnoTOScF4GesQP18-GwCw&usg=AFQjCNGaLgSnmXTAYp5uhgAP1ylClY_2Pw&cad=rja

venturabananas
11-20-2010, 08:34 PM
Gabe,

Thanks for the reply. I've looked through the IPGRI "Descriptors for Banana" and now appreciate how many different characteristics are used to identify cultivars. It's a little overwhelming. I suspect that an ID guide for the relatively few cultivars that are readily available to hobbyists would be much easier to put together and certainly useful to the folks here.

I've been trying to figure out what my neighbor's bananas are. I think they are either a Silk (manzano most likely) or a Pisang Awak. If you didn't have male flowers to look at, what key characteristics would you use to distinguish the two groups?

Gabe15
11-25-2010, 03:11 PM
I've been trying to figure out what my neighbor's bananas are. I think they are either a Silk (manzano most likely) or a Pisang Awak. If you didn't have male flowers to look at, what key characteristics would you use to distinguish the two groups?

Flowers, as they are classically regarded in all of botany, are very discriminating and useful parts to help ID from. With bananas, the actual flowers are useful, but the most useful "part" is the entire inflorescence with developing fruit and an intact male bud, which includes flowers.

If you are certain it is either one of those two subgroups of banana, you can tell them apart by some vegetative traits. But if you are not certain, then they will need to flower as it could be anything really.

If it's just between those two, then Silk has red coloration on the petiole bases, and a thick reddish line along the petiole edge. Pisang Awaks normally do not have any reddish coloration on the petioles or petiole bases.

Keep in mind though, that those traits will distinguish those two cultivars groups only if you are certain that it is one of those two. If you are not sure, then they are rather useless as they describe many other entirely different bananas too.

venturabananas
11-25-2010, 05:10 PM
Thanks Gabe. It it also true that Silk cultivars have some burgundy splotching on leaves of small pups but Pisang Awak don't?

To be honest, I cannot be positive that my neighbor's banana mat is either Silk or Pisang Awak -- they seemed most likely based on what might be available in California, the general look, and the very thin skinned, 5-6" long, apple-tasting fruit. Of the cultivars you'd be likely to encounter in California, which would have fruit that meet that description? It is clearly not something in the Cavendish, Bluggoe, Saba, or Red subgroups; and from the few cultivars I've seen, probably not Pome, Nendra Padaththi, or Sucrier.

Have a great Thanksgiving. Banana stuffing anyone?

sunfish
11-25-2010, 05:20 PM
Thanks Gabe. It it also true that Silk cultivars have some burgundy splotching on leaves of small pups but Pisang Awak don't?

To be honest, I cannot be positive that my neighbor's banana mat is either Silk or Pisang Awak -- they seemed most likely based on what might be available in California, the general look, and the very thin skinned, 5-6" long, apple-tasting fruit. Of the cultivars you'd be likely to encounter in California, which would have fruit that meet that description? It is clearly not something in the Cavendish, Bluggoe, Saba, or Red subgroups; and from the few cultivars I've seen, probably not Pome, Nendra Padaththi, or Sucrier.

Have a great Thanksgiving. Banana stuffing anyone?

:pics:

Yum Recipes : Baked Chicken with Banana Stuffing / (Jamaican) (http://www.yum-recipes.com/Recipe/Jamaican/15007_Baked_Chicken_With_Banana_Stuffing__Jamaican.html)

venturabananas
11-25-2010, 06:41 PM
Fair enough Tony, there will be pictures, but not till next week. Fortunately, there will be a picture of the bud, since one recently started to open.

venturabananas
12-02-2010, 12:34 PM
OK, I had time yesterday to take pictures of my neighbor's mat of unidentified bananas. She doesn't know what they are. Someone gave her one a few years ago and they have flourished. There are currently 5 bunches hanging and she recently harvested a 6th. The fruits have very thin peels and, to me, taste very much like Manzano -- i.e., a strong apple flavor without other fruity overtones.

Looking at these plants more closely after Gabe's comments, I'm pretty sure they are not Manzano, based on the lack of red on the petiole. Perhaps Pisang Awak (Namwah), but I hope Gabe or another expert will chime in.

The lighting conditions in late afternoon when I took the pictures weren't great and as a result the picture of flowers isn't fabulous, but I hope there is enough detail for someone to narrow down the subgroup or determine the cultivar. All the plants have fruited at right around 10' of p-stem.

Any input is would be appreciated.

Mat:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=38994&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=38994)

Bunch 1:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=38995&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=38995)

Bunch 2:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=38998&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=38998&ppuser=7760)

Bunch 3:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=38993&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=38993&ppuser=7760)

Close up of bunch:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=38997&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=38997&ppuser=7760)

Pup:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=38992&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=38992&ppuser=7760)

Petiole of pup:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=38991&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=38991&ppuser=7760)

Flowers:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=38996&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=38996&ppuser=7760)

sunfish
12-02-2010, 12:44 PM
Wild guess Ice Cream

mushtaq86
12-02-2010, 03:35 PM
Wild guess Ice Cream

I say its a ice cream as well Tony

venturabananas
12-03-2010, 05:18 PM
Tony and Mushtaq86, thanks for the input.

After looking through all the photos in the gallery labelled "ice cream" (including some of yours), I can see why you would say ice cream. But I think you are both wrong (and perhaps many of the plants that have been sold as ice cream are in fact something else).

Here's my logic:
1) Ice cream fruits, especially when young, are very bluish. My neighbor's bananas are not.
2) Ice cream (Ney Mannan subgroup) fruits have thick peels (3 mm or thicker, according to the MGIS database). These bananas have very thin peels (1-2 mm).
3) Ice cream fruits are not noted to have any apple flavor -- my neighbors bananas have a very strong apple flavor.

Here are some photos of real ice cream banana plants that I took at Quail Gardens in San Diego (Encinitas), California.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=39037&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39037&ppuser=7760)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=39036&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39036&ppuser=7760)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=39038&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39038&ppuser=7760)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=39041&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39041&ppuser=7760)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=39035&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39035&ppuser=7760)

And here's one from one of our "resident" experts, Gabe:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=38761&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=38761&ppuser=5&sl=g)

I think my neighbor's bananas are probably some Pisang Awak (Namwah) cultivar, based on what I can tell and some of Gabe's comments.

sunfish
12-03-2010, 06:13 PM
I say your right and what I have as Ice Cream does not get blueish fruit. So what is the variety being sold as Ice Cream. Mine came from Lowe's or Home Depot.

sunfish
12-03-2010, 06:22 PM
I don't think there namwah because of how plump,not bottle-nosed, the fruit is.http://www.bananas.org/f12/what-species-13015.html#post148620

venturabananas
12-03-2010, 06:42 PM
Tony,

You could be right about them not being namwah -- they are not very bottle-nosed -- but they also don't have that real blue color to them of ice cream. I don't know. Do you remember if the peels of the ones you bought as ice cream were thick (like Cavendish) or thin (like Manzano)?

sunfish
12-03-2010, 07:11 PM
Tony,

You could be right about them not being namwah -- they are not very bottle-nosed -- but they also don't have that real blue color to them of ice cream. I don't know. Do you remember if the peels of the ones you bought as ice cream were thick (like Cavendish) or thin (like Manzano)?
Pretty sure they were thin skin. Mine didn't have flowers like the one's above.

Gabe15
12-04-2010, 10:22 AM
The blue skin is common, but not a sure thing as it can vary with conditions, it should not be used for ID alone. I have seen bonafide 'Ice Cream' before that are waxy, but not blue like normal.

The plant we are trying to ID above is a little difficult to pinpoint for a few reasons:
1. We are presented with only a few photos which do not clearly demonstrate the best diagnostic traits (in this case, a female bud, and the entire developing bunch with male bud attached would be very useful). As a banana inflorescence develops, it changes, and some very important traits need to be observed at different times, and things like male bud and fruit (shape, size, color, waxiness etc...) will change on the same plant over time as it develops.
2. 'Namwah' and 'Ice Cream' are rather similar morphologically, and due to the above reasons, it is difficult to tell which it is from these photos.
3. The colors of the male bud can be useful to tell these plants apart, but you can never be sure if the colors you see on the computer screen are really representing the actual object as it appears or if these is some change, there are many factors along the way which can distort the colors.
4. There are always genotype x environment interactions which are influencing the phenotypic expression, so even identical clonal plants can often look rather different under different conditions.

That being said, I personally am leaning towards 'Namwah' given the photos we see, but that's not to definitively say I would not change my opinion if more photos were presented which showed something different.

The most significant points I see in this case are the male bud bract colors and the apex shape and degree of imbrication at this stage. Notice how Pisang Awak bananas tend to have a pinkish/reddish hue to the bract external face whereas 'Ice Cream' tends to be more purple. Also notice how when the male buds are younger (compare with the older male bud in the Quail photos above which show how much it can change over time), the 'Pisang Awak' buds are more pointed/sharp at the apex and more imbricated than the 'Ice Cream' buds at a roughly comparable stage (young).
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=39086&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=39086&ppuser=5)

Mark, if you can get more photos of the plants later of the whole developing inflorescence in multiple stages (female and male stages) it would make it more clear. There are some other traits which we cannot see right now which may help to ID it.

venturabananas
12-04-2010, 12:21 PM
Thanks for the input Gabe. I will try to take more photos as development of the inflorescence progresses. The thing that might make it a challenge is that my neighbor tends to cut off the male bud very soon after fruits stop being formed.

Gabe, do you think there is any validity to the observations I made about differences between the fruits of Pisang Awak and Ney Mannan cultivars in the MGIS database? Specifically...

Peel thickness: Pisang Awak = thin (< 3 mm) vs Ney Mannan = thick (>3 mm)
Flavor: Pisang Awak = with apple overtones vs Ney Mannan = no apple flavor

Or are these differences based on too little data in that database?

venturabananas
02-23-2011, 11:58 AM
I never could get more photos of the progression of the inflorescence and specifically the male flowers because my neighbor cut off the bud after it stopped making female flowers.

That said, I am now certain that my neighbor's bananas are a Pisang Awak cultivar because they tasted identical to the dwarf Namwah fruits that Tony sent me. I need to talk to my neighbor more about how she feeds her banana plants because boy does she get the fruits big and plump -- so much so that it almost disguises the bottle nose of fruit unless you look carefully.

Jose263
08-08-2012, 11:11 PM
I never could get more photos of the progression of the inflorescence and specifically the male flowers because my neighbor cut off the bud after it stopped making female flowers.

That said, I am now certain that my neighbor's bananas are a Pisang Awak cultivar because they tasted identical to the dwarf Namwah fruits that Tony sent me. I need to talk to my neighbor more about how she feeds her banana plants because boy does she get the fruits big and plump -- so much so that it almost disguises the bottle nose of fruit unless you look carefully.
Ventura - did you find out about your neighbor's nana feeding schedule ?
Got nanas this year and want to plump them before winter weather arrives.

:birthdaynana:

venturabananas
08-10-2012, 06:00 PM
Ventura - did you find out about your neighbor's nana feeding schedule ?
Got nanas this year and want to plump them before winter weather arrives.

:birthdaynana:

It turns out that she does nothing, literally, other than water them. The bunches on my neighbor's mat and the fruit on them seem to be getting progressively smaller. Not a big surprise without any fert or any thinning of the mat. She currently has 5-6 bunches hanging on one mat.