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View Full Version : MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent


imclueless17
08-15-2010, 04:02 PM
Ok so I was just wondering which of these is the best source for usable banana growing light. I currently have a MH set up which I believe gives off light mostly from the blue spectrum. But I want to know if HPS Lights, Led's or fluorescent's are possibly better or more cost effective.( Oh and I know that a hps setup is better for flowering because it gives off light in the red spectrum). :2182:

blownz281
08-15-2010, 06:42 PM
MH will suck up to much power,plus to much heat. Left over from a saltwater reef tank? :) . Fluorescent is better with cost and bulbs are cheap,but for energy and out put LED would be best. Only thing is one tiny bulb is only 1watt. They aren't cheap either,atleast not for the craze of the saltwater hobby world. They barely use any electric,and have a longer spectrum life. Not much info out there on how good they are for reef tanks or plants.

Good Luck.

imclueless17
08-15-2010, 06:54 PM
So If I were to switch to a led system for growing naners what Wattage would I want and I would want blue led's right?

blownz281
08-15-2010, 07:11 PM
Sorry man I can't help you on the wattage for growing nanners. But any grow lights I have ever seen give off Kelvin ratings and not blue which is atinic for saltwater reefs. If I may ask why not keep them outside and just bring them in during winter and just let them go dormant? Didn't look at where your from so not sure of your zone. 6500K rating bulbs would be a good start I think. Might be easier to get some hardware and Fluoresent bulbs and go that way. Since you can get all the stuff at a box store. Where the LED you would have to get from the internet and google creed or some name like that. They are one company who is selling LED systems for reef tanks and they might be able to hook you up with what you need. I use T5 HO lighting on my reef tank which are small fluoresent bulbs and they put out killer light and keep there spectrum the best right behind LED.

imclueless17
08-15-2010, 07:50 PM
Well actually I keep my naner's inside most of the year due to short summers (or a short time during summer when the bananas will grow). So I wondered if I could save some money by switching from Mh to some other type.

timmko
08-16-2010, 06:40 PM
Last winter I used a 400watt MH 10,000k bulb (left over from my reef tank, I also switched over to T-5's) and to supplement the blue I added a 6500k Compact flourrescent about 250watts I think. The banana's grew great but then they were only small (less than 2ft)and kept within3ft of the bulbs. This winter I will look at getting some t-5 lighting to add as the plants are now over 8ft. I went to home depot and they have double strip t-5 lighting for shops at around $35.00 and then of course I would have to get full spectrum bulbs. Still looking around if anyone has any great ideas lets hear them.

imclueless17
08-16-2010, 09:02 PM
Just bought a 2' 4 bulb t-5 fluorescent light fixture and 4 HO 6500k t-5 bulbs so it looks like ill be switching to a fluorescent system =).

Richard
08-17-2010, 12:01 AM
Ok so I was just wondering which of these is the best source for usable banana growing light. I currently have a MH set up which I believe gives off light mostly from the blue spectrum. But I want to know if HPS Lights, Led's or fluorescent's are possibly better or more cost effective.

Forget LED's for crops, although they are great for indoor tropical plants that enjoy low light in their natural habitat.

In the long run, the T5 High-Output Plant light systems are more cost effective, plus they give out a better quality light for crops and full-sun plants in general.

( Oh and I know that a hps setup is better for flowering because it gives off light in the red spectrum). :2182:

That's an urban myth. Try telling that to a commercial grower with significant floor space and they will be rolling on the ground laughing. It is not borne out by any valid field trials.

tastyratz
08-17-2010, 03:38 PM
is a 6500k bulb a 6500k bulb period? Some bulbs are sold specifically as grow lights, but I wonder if a bulb labeled grow light is any better than one which just happens to be the right spectrum in the normal range of lights. Are they worth getting or marked up for nothing?

imclueless17
08-17-2010, 04:00 PM
I was just wondering that....

The Hollyberry Lady
08-17-2010, 04:05 PM
I use a 400 watt warm deluxe SunMaster bulb in my system that emits nearly 50% more orange-red light for maximum flowering. It also promotes accelerated linear growth and germination.


It has a balanced rich blue content for healthy vegetative growth and higher PAR watts/lumen rating than most HID sources. I really enjoy it and don't intend on changing anytime soon.


Different strokes for different folks.


: )

Richard
08-17-2010, 11:10 PM
I use a 400 watt warm deluxe SunMaster bulb in my system that emits nearly 50% more orange-red light for maximum flowering. It also promotes accelerated linear growth and germination.


It has a balanced rich blue content for healthy vegetative growth and higher PAR watts/lumen rating than most HID sources. I really enjoy it and don't intend on changing anytime soon.


Different strokes for different folks.

I would be very interested in reading the report of a study with good experimental design which shows any benefit to using orange-red bias vs. a full spectrum plant light for flowering. All such studies I've seen to date are negative.

imclueless17
08-17-2010, 11:19 PM
I would be very interested in reading the report of a study with good experimental design which shows any benefit to using orange-red bias vs. a full spectrum plant light for flowering. All such studies I've seen to date are negative.
Actually I can agree on this statement because I have always been told red induces flowering in plants while blue tends to stimulate more growth. But it was told to me as fact not opinion so I never researched or questioned it but I find it very interesting that it may just be a bucket of hogwash...(pssst...look at pic. Its funny).

Kevin
08-17-2010, 11:24 PM
imclueless17 - your original question was what was the best light set-up. I can't answer what's the best, but I use a 1000W HPS for my grow-room (all sorts of plants), and I had my banana plant down there last winter. It did fine. I would say the more light the better, no matter what spectrum. There are also two basement windows in that room, so it does get a bit more light than just the bulb. How much room do you have that you could get a banana plant to flower inside under fluorescents? They do create a lot of heat, but you can just put the ballast outside the room if you find it too much, if you even have the plants in a separate room. Heat is not an issue then. The bulb does heat up, but without the ballast, I think the heat would be significantly lower.

If you don't want to give your location, could you give us your zone? Sounds like you are in a cold zone - nice to hear from others growing bananas in the frozen north!

imclueless17
08-17-2010, 11:44 PM
Sorry if I made it sound that cold Its not that bad i'm between zone 5b and 6a which isn't freezing but we have some really nasty winds here(60-90+ mph) which cool things down a bit. But I only have a short time in which its not to hot nor to cold here to grow naners. in the heat of summer its normally 103+ like today for us. but in late spring and early fall the naners don't get burnt of frozen ( we have winters in the -10's which isn't totally harsh but its not good for the nana's).(and yes I do use parenthesis alot.) =)

wordwiz
09-23-2010, 01:06 PM
I have tried MH and HPS, both 400 watt bulbs and yes, HPS does encourage blooming and longer internodes.

LED, at least the ones with the 8:2 (Red:Blue) or 7:2:1 (Red:Blue:Orange) also produce longer nodes than MH or fluros.

Last winter, I did a Basil comparison grow using the HPS, CFL and three LED panels: all red, all blue and red/blue. By far the leggiest plant was the all-red LED - the plants fell over. The HPS was next, followed by the red/blue. The CFL plant was considerably shorter with the all-blue plants the stockiest.

Allowances were made to equalize the lux among the plants.

As far as scientifically determining what the most (cost) efficient light is, it is easy. Figure out the cost per lumen of PAR light (the part of the spectrum plants use in photosynthesis).

YMMV!

Mike

Richard
09-23-2010, 09:06 PM
HPS plant-light bulbs are manufactured to be a supplement to daylight in translucent outdoor greenhouses in northern latitudes -- not a stand-alone source for indoors. For example: http://www.search.philips.com/search/jsp/clickout.jsp?clicklocation=1&type=searchhit&text=horticulture&section=all&locale=us_en&url=http://www.lighting.philips.com/us_en/browseliterature/download/p-5828.pdf

wordwiz
09-23-2010, 09:57 PM
And you extrapolated this from the link you provided?

Sorry, wrong interpretation. They can be used, and highly are, as supplemental light in a GH, but lots of growers, especially those that are into "herbal growing" don't have translucent outdoor greenhouses in northern latitudes.

Mike

Richard
09-23-2010, 11:12 PM
And you extrapolated this from the link you provided?

Sorry, wrong interpretation. They can be used, and highly are, as supplemental light in a GH, but lots of growers, especially those that are into "herbal growing" don't have translucent outdoor greenhouses in northern latitudes.

Mike

The vast majority of HPS bulbs sold by manufacturers are used as lighting supplements. My clients -- who buy lights by the truckload, prefer the T5 HO full spectrum.

It is also true that many distributors are making a nice sum of cash selling HPS bulbs to indoor growers. Its a small dent in the big picture.

wordwiz
09-24-2010, 08:00 PM
Richard,

The reality is the same. The most bang for the buck is MH lights. Not that I sell them, I don't sell anything except maybe some tomatoes and peppers when they ripen and I have more than I need. But I have done some in-depth analysis of grow lights, how much PAR they deliver, their initial cost and the cost to operate them.

I don't expect you to jump on my bandwagon, given that you are pedaling other lights but please, don't try to presume the info I have posted is not proven.

Mike

cheson74
09-24-2010, 08:16 PM
I just bought a Sunblaze 4' 4 bulb fluorescent light. There were a bunch of used Metal Halide and HPS systems for sale on Craigslist that weren't much more than this Sunblaze. However, I went with the fluorescent lights for lower operating cost. Plus I wasn't looking to get maximum growth or anything from my bananas; just keeping them alive until spring arrives (I don't have cool dark place to overwinter them).

The coverage area is a bit smaller than I expected so I might end up buying another Sunblaze 4 ft 4 bulb system.

Richard
09-24-2010, 09:38 PM
I don't expect you to jump on my bandwagon, given that you are pedaling other lights but please, don't try to presume the info I have posted is not proven.


I'm not selling any lights. I just do the physics as part of my consulting service.

Velutina
09-25-2010, 12:27 PM
People tend to over think lighting. You only need to make sure the light is at the right intensity and the proper wavelength. Chlorophyll needs light around 450nm and 650nm. Most "daylight/6500K" bulbs should cover both. The whole "red vs blue" is more important when you are dealing with flowering plants such as marijuana. People growing pot (or "basil") often use HPS because it's heavy on the red light which encourages blooming. For bananas, just a bulb that is full spectrum.

Bananas grow great under fluorescents (I've used NO, VHO, T5, PC). One of my favorite bulbs for both plants and coral is a 6500K 400 watt Iwasaki MH.

Here's a comparison of the spectrum of an Iwasaki vs the Sun. I haven't seen a bulb that replicates sunlight better than an Iwasaki.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/8/aafeature_album/figure-5.gif

Velutina
09-25-2010, 12:45 PM
If your lighting covers these peaks (pic below), you're set for bananas. Then you just need to worry about intensity. T5's are so great because they have great reflectors. I don't believe the emit more light/watt than any other fluorescent bulb. A good reflector can make a HUGE difference. People familiar to reef lighting will know that 250watt DE MH can produce more PAR than a 400watt SE MH simply because of the reflector. The Double-end (DE) bulb doesn't put out more light/watt, it simply has a better reflector.

The problem with HID (MH/HPS) lighting for plants is you need to mount the bulbs high with a good reflector in order to cover a large area. If the plants get too close to the bulb, they will burn. Fluorescents, on the other hand, can be mounted closer the the foliage. Many plants will come into contact with the bulb with no problem.

LED's are great, but getting enough light would be difficult and expensive.

The choice really comes down to how many plants you need to cover, the plant size, and the space available.

http://www.uic.edu/classes/bios/bios100/lecturesf04am/absorption-spectrum.jpg

blownz281
09-25-2010, 05:19 PM
T5's do put out more then any other flouresent bulbs on the market. They also last longer then VHO's-PC's. Where all the other bulbs drop off really quick in 9months,T5's are good on the average for 12months. I know that first hand as my t5's are past due over 12 months and all my corals,GBTA are still doing great. New bulbs in the mail. ATI is the best brand T5 out there hands down!

wordwiz
09-25-2010, 05:57 PM
Velutina,

I don't disagree with anything you say but I want to clarify the way I use lights. For seedlings, I use CFL almost exclusively, though if I need a bit more room I turn on my shop lights. Works great, produces stocky plants. For plants I want to grow to maturity (read: harvest fruit from) my bulb of choice is MH. I base the height it needs to be not on the area I want to cover but the lux it provides to the plants. The goal is about 30,000. I'm finding a 600-watt MH does a fine job covering a 3.5x4' area with Mylar-lined walls. I probably can squeeze out a 4x5' area if I really need to.

I use the 30,000 lux figure based on studies done by lots of people concerned with growing plants in a Green House. They concluded plants need a certain amount of "mols" of lighting per day (Daily Light Integral) to be productive. For tomatoes, that figure is 22 mols/day. 30,000 lux (2788 Foot Candles) times .000546 gives me the mols of PAR light per hour (1.522). Running the light for 15 hours a day will provide 22.83 mols per day.

Other types of light use a different instead of .000546. For instance, sunlight is quite high: .000718, HPS is a lowly .000543 and a cool white fluro checks in at .000524 (these are for the "average" type bulb - each bulb may have a slightly different factor based on the spectrum). But, if I did my math correctly, an LED blows all these lights away, having a conversion value of .0036. Of course, they produce far less lux or Foot Candles.

For my DC banana, it's under a 125-watt LED. I know it can pretty much cover the plant canopy, at least until the plant is nearly mature. And it is delivering about 23 mols per day!

Mike

Velutina
09-25-2010, 06:33 PM
Efficiency or Performance?

When you look at Lumens per watt, T5s are about the same as any other fluorescent bulb. In fact, many Metal Halides put out more lumens per watt than HO T5s. Generally, most fluorescents (T5, T8 etc) using electronic ballasts are between 90-100 lumens per watt. High-Output systems might be in the 70s. You can easily find data stating T5's are more efficient, but they usually leave out that the T8 is running on a magnetic ballast, while the T5 is using an electronic ballast.

Lumens/watt is worthless in determining the correct bulb for your plants or coral. It's Photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) that is important. T5's have such a high PAR because of the superior reflector and high-output ballasts.




These numbers are the standards set by the Dept. of Energy. Most bulbs exceed these standards by 5-10 lm/W.

http://ecmweb.com/images/004ecmCSfig1.jpg

Richard
09-25-2010, 07:34 PM
When I evaluate plant bulbs, there are 3 manufacturers' graphs I value:

Output power spectrum. This is a graph of Watts or typically log(Watts) vs. nanometers. I ignore graphs that do not have units in the vertical range and do not extend through the infrared.
Output power spectral density. This is variance of power vs. nanometers. It shows you deviations in output under operating conditions.
Total power vs. operational time. This shows you when and how the output decays.


In the retail world, the same bulb can found packaged by (a) one distributor under several different brand names targeted at different life-style groups, and (b) packaged by different distributors under different brand names, and (c) packaged very generically by a packing house for a national chain.

Retail stores only carry what the distributors will provide. This is unfortunate, because some manufacturers have 5 to 10 different full-spectrum bulbs that are tuned to specific agricultural applications. So for example, if I am growing cucurbits (e.g., melons, squash) I want #4 but for another crop I want #7. By the way, Have you noticed that melons in the supermarkets rarely have any dirt specks? Growing this crop in shelters and buildings is now big business.

Factories sell the bulbs by the shipping container load, packed in large boxes with no sleeves -- just mineral dust to keep the bulbs from chaffing. Some of the manufacturers only stamp the product number into the metal end-piece at the cathode or anode, and let the distributor print whatever they want on the bulb itself. If you own a plant light bulb, check out the etched or stamped part number on the end. You can look these up with Google and determine who the manufacturer is.

wordwiz
09-27-2010, 08:13 PM
I tend to evaluate lights in the real world, not what the claims are. I can tell the difference between a 6500K, 5000K and 4300K bulb. I can take lux measurements 30" from the bulb. I can tell you if a bulb lasts for one year or three years. More importantly, I can say how tomatoes (as well as some other plants) do under different types of bulbs

The latter is the most important aspect, at least to me. A bulb providing 140 lumens per watt but not getting good fruit set is not as appealing, at least to me, is not as significant as a bulb that emits 105 lumens per watt but promotes a great fruit set.

This is where pot growers really shine. They know, probably via others' experience, how much lux or foot candles and what spectrum they need for each stage of growth. By sheer numbers, they have tried almost every type of light, amount of wattage, spectrum, grow room temp - the entire gamut.

But the same is not true for those of us trying to grow bananas, tomatoes, hot peppers, basil, etc. A good pot grower can tell you how many Growing Degree Days it should take to produce a bud given a Daily Light Integral of X mols that is worth selling; most banana growers do not have a clue what a Growing Degree Day or Daily Light Integral are.

Not that I'm knocking people, only stating what I've seen. I know a guy who has a decent amount of respect in several veggie growing forums, that constantly posits that one needs 20-60 watts of lighting per square foot to grow plants to maturity. His advice is not wrong, but it's like someone driving across the US, getting lost, ans stopping to ask where you are - only to be told they are in the Mid-West! A pot grower would tell the visitor they are at 5th and Vine in Cincinnati, OH.

But I digress - I would rather read what has worked for individuals rather than "This is what I evaluate."

YMMV,

Mike

Velutina
09-27-2010, 09:48 PM
Bananas are not picky when it comes to artificial light. I have used Normal-output (NO)fluorescents, VHO fluorescents, T5, PC fluorescents, and Metal halide. The best growth was using 2x40watt NO 6500K fluorescents. I also used a 400 watt 6500K Iwasaki MH that worked very well. If I was limited on space, i'd use NO fluorescents. If I had plenty of room, I'd use a 400 watt MH with electronic ballast and reflector like this... That is what has worked for me... FWIW

http://hellolights.com/images/products/detail/lumenbright1.jpg

Richard
09-28-2010, 02:21 AM
A client of mine in Riverside county has converted his orchid growing grounds into year-round vegetable and fruit production. The existing plant greenhouses have translucent ceilings, with only the 1st six feet of sides being opaque. He has a geothermal well that provides heat and electric power year-round. He pays for about 1/2 his water due to the trade-off in the costs of filtering the salt-laden fluids from the well.

The greenhouses are all about 1 acre in size. One of them is dedicated to bananas. From fall through spring, the light through the roof is supplemented with full-spectrum plant bulbs for a total effect of 13 hours daylight at a rate of 1200 Watts per plant (at times, some of this is coming from the sun). Their are no reflectors in place at the bulbs because (a) the greenhouse "glass" is partially reflective on the bottom side and (b) reflectors would block natural sunlight.

timmko
09-28-2010, 02:49 PM
Last year when my banana's were only 1ft or so I had 4 of them under a 10,000k, 400watt MH with a reflector and a 200 wat Compact florescent in a shop hood. I had the plants within a foot of the bulbs and when they grew I just lowered the pots down and kept the plants about the same distance. When I finally put them outside for the summer they had very sturdy stems and around 4ft. This was from New Years to the first of May.

Now they are 8ft or larger and I had to cut them down to 6ft to get them inside for the winter I purchased an extra 6bulb 4ft T-5 system from here

Hydrofarm T5 4FT Designer Fluorescent Grow Lights - Plantlighting Hydroponics & Grow Lights (http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/hydrofarm-t5-4ft-grow-lights-c-321_738.html)

Since they were much larger this fall I needed to cover more area. I don't necessarily want them growing a lot over winter but just sustain them til spring. I bought the unit with all 6500k bulbs, since I am already using the 10,00k MH. Given that does this sound acceptable? The building is 18x12ft and heated. I plan on keeping the inside temp around 55degrees and also will be running a humidifier. Keeping the temp lower should slow the growth down alot I hope. ANy other suggestions.?:nanadrink:

wordwiz
10-09-2010, 12:19 PM
My DC seems to love the combo of hydro and LED. It's adding a leaf per week, with a tiny internodal length. The guy I bought the plant from said the plant would start producing fruit when it gets between 40-50 leaves (a very rough estimate, IMO) but that would be in about nine months. If true, and it keeps growing at this rate, it would be nearly perfect. I want to show it at the county fair next summer (August 9-13).

Mike

Richard
10-09-2010, 12:58 PM
Out here in California the medicinal cannabis growers all have licenses from the state. They utilize greenhouses 1 to 3 acres in size -- often those previously used in the ornamental flower trade. Their use of supplemental lighting is minimal in the summer but very important during the winter. Many of these growers have discovered an interesting truth: it is more profitable to grow leafy and fruiting vegetables in those greenhouses than cannabis. Now if you think 3 acres is a large greenhouse, consider this facility in Salinas CA with 3,000,000 sq.ft. "under glass":

http://www.plantsthatproduce.com/image_gallery/Greenhouses.jpg

wordwiz
10-09-2010, 01:20 PM
That's large but pales in comparison to Eurofresh's operation in Wilcox, AZ. 318 acres of greenhouses! That's 13.85 million square feet!

Mike

Richard
10-09-2010, 03:22 PM
One thing they all have in common: no LED.

wordwiz
10-09-2010, 09:35 PM
But they are not growing a solitary banana plant!

I am well aware and have studied, in depth, greenhouse growing and artificial light. I know the DLI necessary for veggies and lots of flowers. That and $1 will get me a McDonald's Sausage Biscuit.

To raise tomatoes, I use 600 watt MH systems. To raise seedlings, I use 23-105 watt CFL bulbs. I just posted how my plant, in my growing conditions, under the light I am using, is doing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mike

Richard
10-09-2010, 10:11 PM
But they are not growing a solitary banana plant!

True! LED works well for indoor foliage.

In terms of energy requirements to have a solitary dwarf Cavendish produce a meaningful crop, you'll need 800W output full plant spectrum for 9 hours per day provided the ambient air temperature is in the 75F to 85F range and the plant is receiving 2-3 lbs of something like 15-5-22 + minors & micronutrients per year.

wordwiz
10-09-2010, 10:44 PM
Richard,

You must be smoking and not eating the bananas. The plants need about 35,000 foot candles per 12-hour day. At 75 lumens per watt, your 800 watt light, placed a foot above the plant, is going to deliver 60,000 FC per hour!

Mike

Richard
10-10-2010, 12:03 AM
For more standard size bananas, we use 2kW output per plant, of which about 1.2kW is incident upon the plant. The bulbs are 1 meter distance from the foliage. During the summer months, the sun provides about 1/2 of this but during the winter only about 100W to 200W. The nutrients are the same as below but the levels are at 5-lbs per plant per year.

wordwiz
10-10-2010, 03:11 PM
Richard,

Where from God's Green Earth are you getting your figures? Do you know more than Jim Faust, Paul Fisher and Eric Runkle put together?

Do you have any idea what PAR is, or DLI? Why would banana plants need twice the amount of light provided by the sun? How do they manage to survive in the wild?

Mike

Richard
10-10-2010, 05:58 PM
Mike,

I am reporting on what is being done commercially. Fruiting banana cultivars do not occur in the wild. But for comparison, examine the Watts per 4 sq. meters of solar radiation on the earth's surface in the plant spectrum at 0 to 10 degrees latitude in the summer.

wordwiz
10-11-2010, 04:35 PM
I would guess about 156-280 watts per second on a sunny day when clouds are not blocking any radiation. This is at the equator, where banana trees grow well. Yet you claim you need 2,000W per plant. Do you work for an electric company?

Mike

Richard
10-11-2010, 05:52 PM
I would guess about 156-280 watts per second on a sunny day when clouds are not blocking any radiation. This is at the equator, where banana trees grow well.

When doing co-registration for remote sensing with EOS sensors, we obtain on average about 300 Watts/sq. meter for the given scenario. Using a measure of 4 sq. meters per plant brings the total to 1200W. The bulbs are at 1 meter from the plants and at peak output (factory fresh) are 2000W, but since energy drops off with distance we get about 1200W incident on the plants. Further, full power is only used part-time during 3 seasons and nearly full-time in the winter. Most agricultural sites of this type have free (deeded) water, power (e.g., geothermal), or both.

Growth is not enough. Farmers are trying to fruit these plants in a timely fashion -- 12 months or less brings an acceptable profit margin. The energy inputs used for poinsettias in a greenhouse, tomatoes in tunnels, cucurbitoids in warehouses, and fruiting bananas in orchid shelters are all different. Here in San Diego county, we don't bother with assisted lighting for poinsettias -- in fact we have the opposite problem so we use growth regulators.

wordwiz
10-11-2010, 08:28 PM
A 2000 watt grow light? Got a link to it? And let's see ---- 2000 watts times 8 hours per day is 16,000 watts per day. During winter, 3 months, that amounts to about $144 per plant, if you are paying only 10˘ per kW hour. Add in the rest of the year and you are over $200 to grow a plant, not including labor or other expenses.

Even in Cincy, in the middle of winter, it's not hard to find bananas for about 40˘/lb. So if the wholesale price from the grower is 20˘/lb. that means you need only about 1,000 pounds per plant to break even.

So what variety of banana are you growing and what is your average harvest per tree?

Mike

timmko
10-11-2010, 09:08 PM
Keep this is going it is very interesting to read. thanks guys for all your input...:08:

Richard
10-11-2010, 09:17 PM
A 2000 watt grow light? Got a link to it?

The bulbs are at 1 meter from the plants ... i.e., there are multiple bulbs per plant.

... During winter, 3 months, that amounts to about $144 per plant ...

Most agricultural sites of this type have free (deeded) water, power (e.g., geothermal), or both.

So what variety of banana are you growing and what is your average harvest per tree? These clients are in Riverside and San Bernardino counties (CA). They are growing dwarf varieties for local asian markets. My understanding is that the 1st two hands per bunch covers the production cost and the remainder is profit. Only 1/5 to 1/10 of their greenhouses are devoted to Bananas.

wordwiz
10-12-2010, 04:04 PM
Hmmmmmmm,

$100 per hand. That's what, $4-5 or more per banana?

Mike

Richard
10-12-2010, 05:52 PM
Hmmmmmmm,

$100 per hand. That's what, $4-5 or more per banana?

Mike

Nope.

Most agricultural sites of this type have free (deeded) water, power (e.g., geothermal), or both.

For example, ask harveyc (http://www.bananas.org/member-harveyc.html) what he pays for water.

wordwiz
10-12-2010, 06:26 PM
Richard,

A commercial running these days urges some: if you find you are digging yourself into a hole, quit digging. I suggest you consider this advice.

You try to say that producers who spend $200 on electricity can pay for the entire electrical cost with two hands of fruit. Yet, most dwarf banana plants, at least from what I read, produce 14-16 fruits per hand, I was willing to give you 20. Your post, elucidating everyone on paying for the costs:
Nope./QUOTE]

But you insist on keeping on shoveling. I never brought other costs into the equation but you felt the need to defend your own post I never asked about:

[Quote]
Most agricultural sites of this type have free (deeded) water, power (e.g., geothermal), or both. For example, ask harveyc what he pays for water.

And for the record, geothermal is not free. Period. Considerably less expensive after installation - yes. Free - TANSTAAFL! Then you claim you need TWICE the light intensity provided at the equator. PPLLeeaassee!

From the git-go, you have tried to hijack this thread and act like you are an expert. I'm not, and have never claimed to be. But I have studied lighting and growing in a GH extensively, as well as how much light intensity plants needs for optimal growth.

Put your digging tool on sale on e-bay and advertise as one that has shoveled tons of crap is just a couple of weeks!

Mike

Richard
10-12-2010, 07:41 PM
Mike,

If you are trying to say that raising bananas indoors for fruit does not make economic sense for the average citizen, then I agree 100%.

Of course there are people who are into extremes, such as the hilarious tales chronicled in this book: The 64 Dollar Tomato by W. Alexander.

There are also people who have both the desire and the means to grow fruiting tropical plants indoors and obtain production-grade harvests. I have several of them for customers. For example, there is a woman who owns an estate in the northeastern U.S. Among other things, she has two identical size wings on her home: the one on the north houses an Olympic size pool, the one on the south is a terrarium. Inside, she raises citrus, papayas, bananas, grenadilla, etc.

Sixty years ago, both the state and private real estate holders in California did not think much of properties with bubbling mudholes, esp. in arid locations. The properties were either "given" to native Americans, or sold off to "gullible" Asian immigrants. It is true that power companies will not pay much for mining rights to harvest power from geothermal wells. However, this does not stop a person from building a micro-power plant with their own funds or a loan -- then powering their own enterprise, or simply leasing the site and power for a Walmart distribution center in the desert.

wordwiz
10-12-2010, 09:02 PM
Richard,

All that you say in your last post may be well and true, but that's NOT what this thread was about. I don't give a flying rat's behind what some lunatic in La-La land will do to get a ripe banana - I am concerned about what the average aficionado of ripe, home-grown banana growers will need to know. Posting BS like needing 2,000 watts of light per plant does a huge disservice, irregardless if you know fools in indulge in wasting money. I'm growing a DC under 125 watts of LED light, in a DWC hydro setup and it is doing fantastic. Will it flower and produce 40 pounds of bananas? I don't have a crystal ball. But I will let you know and then you can tell your baffoon clients they are wasting resources (if it turns out for my good).

Mike

Richard
10-12-2010, 09:17 PM
Mike,

There are many people here who for many years have attempted to grow bananas for fruit wholly indoors. If you were to start a thread on this topic you might get some helpful responses.

wordwiz
10-12-2010, 09:30 PM
{Smacking head against wall}

WTH do you think this thread started out about?

I'll refrain from obvious personal insults that are due, but again will ask that you ditch your shovel and quit digging a deeper hole.

Mike

Richard
10-12-2010, 09:45 PM
Mike,

It was 800W output in the plant spectrum that I recommended for your super dwarf Cavendish, not 2kW.

Given the title of this thread, I'm not sure it is going to reach the audience you have in mind.

No need to layoff the personal insults now, you've already contributed many!

wordwiz
10-18-2010, 10:46 PM
Richard,

My DC has been adding a leaf per week. It is getting light from only a 125 watt LED. I suppose, according to you, that if I was to increase the light six-fold, to 800 watts, I should get six new leaves per week?

Mike

Richard
10-18-2010, 10:57 PM
Richard,

My DC has been adding a leaf per week. It is getting light from only a 125 watt LED. I suppose, according to you, that if I was to increase the light six-fold, to 800 watts, I should get six new leaves per week?

Mike

Congratulations! I look forward to reading about the fruits of your labors.

wordwiz
10-19-2010, 03:41 PM
Congratulations! I look forward to reading about the fruits of your labors.

I look forward to eating the fruits!

Mike

Richard
10-19-2010, 04:22 PM
I suppose, according to you, that if I was to increase the light six-fold, to 800 watts, I should get six new leaves per week?

The relationship is non-linear and has more to do with fruit production than leaf growth. There are accrued energy levels to be obtained over time for maturation, etc.

wordwiz
10-20-2010, 07:40 PM
Richard,

You continue to ignore the part DLI (the amount of photons a plant uses in photosynthesis) means. Experts, which do not include me, have determined the optimal mols per day needed per plant, though Growing Degree Days (heat) also play an important part. Yes, you may get ten more pounds per plant using 800 watts per hour for 14 hours a day than I will using 125 watts (or 400 if I choose to use MH/HPS) but at what price?

There's an easy way to solve this question. You grow a DC under your choice of 800 watt HID lights , I'll grow mine under the 125-watt LED. After a year of growing, we can compare harvested weight. If you harvest six times the salable nanas in weight as I do, then I will concede that Tim Taylor was right and the more power the better.

I don't mind if I lose - it means I will have learned something. But at the same time, I'm not worried about trying walking the walk after talking the talk. Are you?

Mike

Richard
10-21-2010, 02:49 AM
Mike,

My main interest is in the number of days under your lights, environment, and nutrition regime the plant takes to bloom. Let's wait and see.

Other than that, what were the initial conditions; i.e., state of the plant prior to the start of your experiment, the approximate age, environment, and nutrition?

As for my part of the walk, you can read my previous posts in this thread about it.

wordwiz
10-21-2010, 12:46 PM
Mike,

My main interest is in the number of days under your lights, environment, and nutrition regime the plant takes to bloom. Let's wait and see.

Other than that, what were the initial conditions; i.e., state of the plant prior to the start of your experiment, the approximate age, environment, and nutrition?

As for my part of the walk, you can read my previous posts in this thread about it.

The plant was about 14" tall (roots and all) with 3 of the four leaves sort of broken. I rinsed the potting mix off and put it in a five-gallon bucket. The nutrient solution is EcoGrow with a ppm pf about 2100. The room is usually between 72-84 though night-time temps are dropping. From what the seller told me, it will produce fruit when it gets about 40-50 leaves - that would mean in about another nine months or so at its current rate of growth.

The light is on about 13 hours a day and sits about 2.5 ft. above the plant.

Mike

Richard
10-21-2010, 01:01 PM
Mike,

With your knowledge and experience, you should be able to break previous "days to maturity" records for indoor growing using 100-200 Watts as the only light supply. You can read about these elsewhere on Bananas.org. Send me a message when it fruits.

Number of leaves is no indication of maturity. Check the postings -- most recently by Gabe (http://www.bananas.org/member-Gabe15.html) on this subject.

You must mean 2100 total ppm -- which is not a useful measure considering the concentrations of micronutrients etc. in the product. Find out from the manufacturer what dosage of the product gives 100pm Nitrogen, then work from there to get the desired feeding concentrations of N-P-K, etc.

That's about it for me on this subject.

wordwiz
10-21-2010, 05:17 PM
Richard,

I typed that I use EcoGrow - you can Google it to find the percentages of N,P & K as well as micronuits.

From you post, I gather you are not interested in growing a plant indoors under 800 watts of light and charting the progress?

I ordered and supposedly was shipped a Dwarf Cavendish, not a Super Drawf - I trust Ted to send me what I order, he always has.

Sounds like you aren't willing or able to grow a banana plant indoors using 800 watts of lights. I understand - trying to back up claims is much harder than making them!

Mike

Richard
10-21-2010, 06:16 PM
Sounds like you aren't willing or able to grow a banana plant indoors using 800 watts of lights. I understand - trying to back up claims is much harder than making them!
Mike

Actually you are just unwilling to read what I have already written in this thread about my experiences, and apparently unwilling to read the experiences of many other growers on this site. I do sincerely hope that you have a positive outcome with your experiment and find many new friends here at Bananas.org.

wordwiz
10-21-2010, 08:47 PM
Actually you are just unwilling to read what I have already written in this thread about my experiences, and apparently unwilling to read the experiences of many other growers on this site. I do sincerely hope that you have a positive outcome with your experiment and find many new friends here at Bananas.org.

Richard,

I ave read what you have posted. Here are the posts:

Forget LED's for crops, although they are great for indoor tropical plants that enjoy low light in their natural habitat.
In the long run, the T5 High-Output Plant light systems are more cost effective, plus they give out a better quality light for crops and full-sun plants in general.

HPS plant-light bulbs are manufactured to be a supplement to daylight in translucent outdoor greenhouses in northern latitudes -- not a stand-alone source for indoors. For example: http://www.search.philips.com/search...oad/p-5828.pdf

The vast majority of HPS bulbs sold by manufacturers are used as lighting supplements. My clients -- who buy lights by the truckload, prefer the T5 HO full spectrum. It is also true that many distributors are making a nice sum of cash selling HPS bulbs to indoor growers. Its a small dent in the big picture.

I'm not selling any lights. I just do the physics as part of my consulting service.

When I evaluate plant bulbs, there are 3 manufacturers' graphs I value:
1. Output power spectrum. This is a graph of Watts or typically log(Watts) vs. nanometers. I ignore graphs that do not have units in the vertical range and do not extend through the infrared.
2. Output power spectral density. This is variance of power vs. nanometers. It shows you deviations in output under operating conditions.
3. Total power vs. operational time. This shows you when and how the output decays.
(The rest of the post truncated)

The greenhouses are all about 1 acre in size. One of them is dedicated to bananas. From fall through spring, the light through the roof is supplemented with full-spectrum plant bulbs for a total effect of 13 hours daylight at a rate of 1200 Watts per plant (at times, some of this is coming from the sun).

In terms of energy requirements to have a solitary dwarf Cavendish produce a meaningful crop, you'll need 800W output full plant spectrum for 9 hours per day provided the ambient air temperature is in the 75F to 85F range and the plant is receiving 2-3 lbs of something like 15-5-22 + minors & micronutrients per year.

For more standard size bananas, we use 2kW output per plant, of which about 1.2kW is incident upon the plant. The bulbs are 1 meter distance from the foliage. During the summer months, the sun provides about 1/2 of this but during the winter only about 100W to 200W. The nutrients are the same as below but the levels are at 5-lbs per plant per year.

(Taken from a post)
Fruiting banana cultivars do not occur in the wild.

These clients are in Riverside and San Bernardino counties (CA). They are growing dwarf varieties for local asian markets. My understanding is that the 1st two hands per bunch covers the production cost and the remainder is profit.

The relationship is non-linear and has more to do with fruit production than leaf growth. There are accrued energy levels to be obtained over time for maturation, etc.

No where do you state that you have any experience growing bananas, only "what you advise clients" which is using far more energy than necessary - IMO. I made a really simple proposal - we both grow a Dwarf Cavendish, me using a 125 watt LED panel, you using a 2,000 watt HID system that you posted you use. Then we compare the output.

If you get 16 times as much output as me, I'll concede.

Are you willing to put up?

Mike

Patty in Wisc
10-22-2010, 07:07 PM
'Well Mike, you were good about answering questions ... too bad your questions didn't get answered. Just want to say that I was told my IC would flower at about the 35th leaf and it DID!... both of them.
I have a IC in south window & getting 500w halogen light from about 3:30 till 8pm. 2 I forced dormancy & the rest will go into sunroom (50 - 60f) with T8 32 w flourescents. I noticed a big diff between reg 40w floures & the t8 ...the t8's are much brighter.

Richard
10-22-2010, 10:05 PM
Well Mike, you were good about answering questions ... too bad your questions didn't get answered.

Actually all the technical questions he asked did get answered.

The Hollyberry Lady
10-23-2010, 03:19 AM
Actually all the technical questions he asked did get answered. http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo193/hollyberrylady08/2nd%20album/clap.gif


http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo193/hollyberrylady08/2nd%20album/flower_lol2.gif

wordwiz
10-23-2010, 09:40 PM
Actually all the technical questions he asked did get answered.

Richard,

I guess these are not technical enough to qualify?

Do you have any idea what PAR is, or DLI?

So what variety of banana are you growing and what is your average harvest per tree?

$100 per hand. That's what, $4-5 or more per banana? (Your answer was a simple “Nope.” Not really an answer.)

C'mon - this is easy. Show us what you know and am doing. I'll be honest, I don't know if my 125 watt LED panel will be powerful enough to produce fruit or not, but I will post my personal observations, not what I recommend to my clients.

Just tell us about your personal experiences using different lights. Or take the challenge and grow your own in the next year. This is not rocket science - you pick your plant, your method of growing, your lighting and 12 months from now post your results. Are you up to it?

Mike

The Hollyberry Lady
10-24-2010, 06:35 PM
Richard,



While we are all anxiously awaiting your reply to Mike's proposal, I would also like you to explain these questionable comments of yours, made in your October 13th post...



The properties were either "given" to native Americans, or sold off to "gullible" Asian immigrants.



I've received two pm's recently, from members who commented that they are offended by your words. I thought in all fairness though, you should be given a chance to explain...



: )

wordwiz
11-02-2010, 06:05 PM
I suspect Richard cannot back up his claims - it's been more than a week and he has not responded.

IMO, he should have stuck around and put up his 2000 watt system against my 125 watt one. At least we all would have benefited from the results!

Mike

Kevin
11-02-2010, 10:24 PM
Can we just drop this already?

wordwiz
11-03-2010, 09:13 PM
Kevin,

No problem dropping the part regarding Richard, but IMO it would be a disservice not to continue to post how my hydro DC is doing under the LED light - that's at least part of the OP's question. I'm still adding a leaf per week, with very, very tight internodes. If no one cares about how the plant grows, I'll quit adding updates; otherwise I'll continue to add them. Members are free to read or skip over them. It's not like I'm wasting electrons that cannot be recycled.

Mike

The Hollyberry Lady
11-03-2010, 09:16 PM
I'm very interested Mike, so please keep posting...


: )

Kevin
11-03-2010, 10:52 PM
Kevin,

No problem dropping the part regarding Richard, but IMO it would be a disservice not to continue to post how my hydro DC is doing under the LED light - that's at least part of the OP's question. I'm still adding a leaf per week, with very, very tight internodes. If no one cares about how the plant grows, I'll quit adding updates; otherwise I'll continue to add them. Members are free to read or skip over them. It's not like I'm wasting electrons that cannot be recycled.

Mike

True, but if the initiator of the thread is not involved in the conversation anymore, what's the point? Are you talking to that person or just to Richard? Seems, for the most part, to be a 2-person thread, which can be valuable, but in this case, is just dragging on. If one person is not interested in the conversation, it just becomes one person posting on the thread. Yes, you can keep posting about your findings, but don't try to involve Richard. Just because he hasn't responded doesn't mean he can't back up his claims. Maybe he just doesn't want to be involved in your 'competition'. Maybe you should PM him to find out for sure where he stands before making assumptions.

If I ever get a banana to flower indoors, I'll post my findings to compare.

Patty in Wisc
11-04-2010, 12:51 AM
There are several threads here where the original poster didn't post for years & it is still going on.
There are several ppl here who got a nana to flower indoors - including ME.
Yes, I'm interested in hearing how Mike's lights are doing on his nana.
Yes, there is a guy on here that loves to confront & start arguements here & then backs off when he gets stuck.

jmoore
11-04-2010, 03:13 PM
If there's a problem complain to a moderator.

Personally, it amuses me.

I'd like to see a banana flower under lights, so keep us posted.

wordwiz
11-05-2010, 12:06 PM
Well, if the guy I bought it from is correct, it will be another nine months to get fruit. I don't have a clue regarding the time from flowering to ripe fruit!

Mike

wordwiz
02-03-2011, 10:30 PM
An update.

Not sure what to post as far as how the plant is doing under the lights and in a DWC system.

About two months ago, the new shoots quit developing. I thought it might be because the temps dropped from the 80s to the low 70s, even the 60s during the night. The leaves turned yellow on the edges, then brown and then they died. But the roots, in the DWC system, kept growing and stayed white, even after trimming.

The plant now has a pup growing, but get this - it is under the lid of the container. Close to 5" long with two large leaves. Plus, a new shoot has suddenly developed above the lid. But so has something else - a piece of stem (root, shoot - I don't have a clue) that is about 1/4" thick but does not have a top or bottom - it is more like an upside-down "U."

I would like to remove the pup but do not know 1) if it is large enough and 2) how to do it. I can post pics, both of the pup and whatever the heck that one growth is, tomorrow if that will help.

On another note - I'll be growing dwarf apple, orange, tangerine, peach and cherry trees, blackberries and strawberries this year, in addition to the banana plant. My goal it to have a fruit salad, totally grown by me. But I cannot find a marshmallow plant, at least the kind that has fruits that can be roasted over a campfire. If anyone has a source for the plants, please let me know! :pinwheelnaner:

Mike

notrecruiting
02-04-2011, 10:28 AM
LMAO....I really enjoyed this thread. I hope your plant does well, and fruits for you in your indoor environment. I personally think it's cool that you got a pup. I think a pic would be nice because I'm not understanding what you mean by having a pup under the "lid" and a stem growing above the "lid". I guess that if I were to grow a plant in a bucket I'd not have the lid on it. Anyway thanks!! Please keep the updates comming.

Kevin
02-04-2011, 02:19 PM
On another note - I'll be growing dwarf apple, orange, tangerine, peach and cherry trees, blackberries and strawberries this year, in addition to the banana plant. My goal it to have a fruit salad, totally grown by me. But I cannot find a marshmallow plant, at least the kind that has fruits that can be roasted over a campfire. If anyone has a source for the plants, please let me know! :pinwheelnaner:

Mike

You put marshmallows in salad???

wordwiz
02-08-2011, 09:57 PM
Kevin,

I do in fruit salad!

Mike

wordwiz
02-08-2011, 10:06 PM
An update:

To notrecruiting: It is a hydroponic grow, using Deep Water Culture. That's where the plant sits in something resembling a pot, but with lots of slits in the side so water can circulate around it. The roots tend to grow out the bottom of the pot (Google Net Pot if this doesn't make sense). The water/nutrient solution is aerated via something like an airstone that delivers lots of oxygen to the water, which the roots absorb.

Now for another update. Though I thought the main plant had died, I was wrong. Sunday, I pulled up the U-shaped thing and one end came loose. It turned out to be a leaf. Today (Tuesday) another shoot appeared. Not a little, tiny shoot as most of the others started out as, but a rather decent size one. It's almost like the plant decided to take nap, woke up, and has the energy of a superman!

I'll try to take some pics tomorrow after I finish my day job.

Mike

notrecruiting
02-10-2011, 02:27 AM
I guess I missed the part about it being a hydroponics grow. I thought I'd read that it was in a 5 gal. bucket, and was getting excited that I might actually be able to grow a banana on my balcony after all. Anyway, thanks for the update. Sounds like it's still doing nicely.

tucsonplumeriaz
02-21-2011, 04:05 AM
here are some ice cream pups. all of the growth you see is from being grown under CFL's. i started out with a 2700K 68w bulb. then, i changed the bulb to a 6500K 125w bulb. light stays on for 16 hrs each day in my bedroom and the pups were w/i 2 ft. i recently got tired of dealing with the fungus gnats, so i moved the pups to the garage. that's why the unfurling leaf is pale. there is a small CFL that stays on in the garage 24/7, but it's far from the pups.

The Hollyberry Lady
02-21-2011, 09:31 PM
Wow, thanks for the shot. :waving:

The plants look super healthy. Shame you were plagued by fungus gnats though...


damn buggers!!! http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo193/hollyberrylady08/2nd%20album/emo2.gif


I could tell you about some ways to handle them, if you'd like...



: )

tucsonplumeriaz
02-22-2011, 11:48 AM
you're welcome Hollyberry Lady. i have been quite surprised by these CFL's. they cost almost nothing to power and have good light ouput for the plants. :woohoonaner:

i tried two products for gnat eradication before trying nematodes. the nematodes took care of the problem. what was nice is that i didn't have to water the whole pot to apply them. next time i'll start treating the plants before bringing them inside for winter.

The Hollyberry Lady
02-23-2011, 12:19 AM
Yes, bringing in clean plants makes the world of difference! :08:


You can also try watering from the bottom for a while until they all die off and the eggs dry out. ;)


Bowls of water around infested plants will drown gnats in the night and you'll wake up to find many of them floating in the water the next morning.


Sprinkle a bit of cinnamon on top of the soil, which is a natural anti-fungus agent, and this will help to deter the buggers also.


Sticky tape around plants will help catch the flying ones, as well as misty sprays of dishsoapy water from a spray bottle, will kill them instantly. :D


Good luck!


: )

tucsonplumeriaz
02-24-2011, 10:24 AM
thanks for the tips hollyberry lady! :goteam:

wordwiz
04-05-2011, 07:34 PM
An update:

Nearly two months later, the plant is doing great. The pup kept growing and it was about 16" tall with six-seven leaves - everything under the lid where it didn't get any light at all. I had no clue what I was doing but four days ago, I removed the pup and stuck it in some potting mix that I have kept completely saturated. It's still too early for me to tell but today I did see a new shoot developing.

Meanwhile, I also had a dwarf orange tree, also growing in a DWC system. I moved it under the LED light from a 400-watt MH bulb Saturday and today I noticed a couple of white flowers that had bloomed!

If this pup still looks good in a couple of days, I'll post a pic. I'm afraid I'll jinx everything if I do it too soon!

Mike

Dentate
04-19-2011, 01:47 PM
Very entertaining thread with quite a bit of information to boot! From a novice, thanks to those of you that participated in the discussion. I hope the bananas are continuing to proliferate, Mike.

harveyc
05-18-2011, 12:16 AM
An update:

Nearly two months later, the plant is doing great. The pup kept growing and it was about 16" tall with six-seven leaves - everything under the lid where it didn't get any light at all. I had no clue what I was doing but four days ago, I removed the pup and stuck it in some potting mix that I have kept completely saturated. It's still too early for me to tell but today I did see a new shoot developing.

Meanwhile, I also had a dwarf orange tree, also growing in a DWC system. I moved it under the LED light from a 400-watt MH bulb Saturday and today I noticed a couple of white flowers that had bloomed!

If this pup still looks good in a couple of days, I'll post a pic. I'm afraid I'll jinx everything if I do it too soon!

Mike

Hey, Mike, I just saw this thread and would like to see some photos of your set-up.

wordwiz
05-18-2011, 11:17 AM
Harvey,

It's not much of a set-up! A 5-gallon bucket with a hole cut in the lid with a 5" net pot in it, the banana sitting in the pot with some lava rock, roots growing in the bucket and an air hose running through the side. The light is a 125-watt Tri-color LED panel and hangs from the ceiling.

This is what the plant looks like:

http://www.valleycat.net/garden/2011/may18banana.jpg

And its pup:

http://www.valleycat.net/garden/2011/may18pup.jpg

Mike

imclueless17
05-18-2011, 05:49 PM
Neat. Does anyone know if putting a mirrored box around the light and bananas increases the growth rate?

Richard
05-18-2011, 06:16 PM
Neat. Does anyone know if putting a mirrored box around the light and bananas increases the growth rate?

It increases the cooking rate.

wordwiz
05-18-2011, 06:22 PM
Neat. Does anyone know if putting a mirrored box around the light and bananas increases the growth rate?

Mirrors are not good, something like Mylar or just a board painted with flat white paint will increase the luminance. With LED lights, it is not as important as the lights do not diffuse much.

Mike