View Full Version : Helping a friend with ID
Taylor
10-21-2006, 04:25 PM
This is my friends Banana trees. He says "The bananas in the pics are about 1" - 1 1/2"...never matured more than this." I say some sort of Ornata. At first I thought "Royal Purple" but then into further research I saw that the Bananas were purple, not green as in the shots. Please help!
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=1529&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1529&ppuser=351)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=1530&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1530&ppuser=351)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=1531&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1531&ppuser=351)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=1532&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1532&ppuser=351)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=1533&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1533&ppuser=351)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=1534&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1534&ppuser=351)
That's all for now. Please let me know!!!
Taylor
MediaHound
10-21-2006, 04:28 PM
We can't see the photo cause we're not logged into your gmail account, Taylor.
Can you save the photos to your harddrive, then upload the photos to your gallery and re-post them?
:2738:
JoeS475
10-21-2006, 04:28 PM
Pics not working for me Taylor
~Joe
Taylor
10-21-2006, 04:40 PM
Now can you tell? LOL! I feel so stupid:2181: Hmm, I name him Tubby the Tomato....
MediaHound
10-21-2006, 05:00 PM
Heh, nope, same problem.
You can't post an image hosted behind a password protection system.
You need to host the photos somewhere else, like the gallery here.
Your still using
http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.1&disp=thd&view=att&th=10e6c821f09e5325
for the image location.
:2185:
Taylor
10-21-2006, 05:51 PM
THERE! That time I got it!!!!!
:woohoonaner:
pitangadiego
10-21-2006, 08:02 PM
It is an ornamental, maybe Ornata or such.
bigdog
10-21-2006, 09:31 PM
Those long, narrow leaves, as well as the dwarf nature of that clump, are characteristic of Musa mannii. However, the pseudostems don't have much black coloration, which M. mannii does. Still, they do have some black. Definitely not Musa ornata, IMHO. I vote for Musa mannii, or a hybrid with mannii.
Gabe15
10-22-2006, 01:35 AM
that is not Musa mannii at all, not even a hybrid. It is Musa ornata, or as close to Musa ornata as is available on the market.
bigdog
10-22-2006, 12:07 PM
Hmmm...for once Gabe, I completely disagree with you. Here's Hayes's clump of Musa manni in Anniston for comparison:
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=1009 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1007&ppuser=348&sl=n)
Compare that with the first photo that Taylor posted. Taylor's friend's clump seems to be a pretty well-established mat also. A well-established mat of M. ornata would be much taller. There are 3 fruits/hand in his pics, which matches the description of M. mannii of having 3 female flowers per bract, and three clusters. M. ornata has 3-5 female flowers/bract, and 3-5 male flowers/bract. Taylor's pics show 2 male flowers/bract.
My money is still on Musa mannii. The long, narrow, yellowish leaves of musa mannii, combined with its very slender pseudostems and short overall height make it fairly easy to identify, IMHO. M. ornata, while by no means a large species, is quite larger and more robust-looking than M. mannii. There seems to be several forms of M. mannii available these days, none matching the original description exactly. Taylor's clump doesn't have a lot of black coloration on the pseudostems, but it is there.
Taylor, I'm assuming that your friend lives in a zone of at least 8b? Considering that this clump is profusely flowering, I would guess probably zone 9-10. Musa mannii will rarely flower in any zone less than 8b.
Taylor
10-22-2006, 12:29 PM
He is in zone 9. Seems like your psychic! Very good info, but I'll leave you and Gabe the the facts. Im leaning towards Bigdog on this one, but still, what do I know...Im the one who had to ask!
Zac in NC
10-22-2006, 12:29 PM
Frank- I side with Gabe on this one. Mannii has a more or less horizontal inflorescence, not an upright one as Taylor has shown in his pictures. He showed me some pics last night and it is not mannii. What really matters is inflorescence and that is ornata. So the clump superficially resembles the clump that is at the Museum, but you don't have pics of that inflorescence. You can't ID them all by leaves alone. Mannii is pretty similar in appearance to rubinea and that one doesn't look like my rubinea. Mannii is also not that pale pink like that. It is more of a rosy pink color, much deeper. This is just my humble opinion.
Zac
Taylor
10-22-2006, 12:30 PM
Zac- What's inflorescence?
Wow....I feel dumb....:2190:
Zac in NC
10-22-2006, 12:33 PM
Inflorescence is the entireity of the flower stalk; anything above the flag leaf is included in the inflorescence. My botany Text from college states....A flower cluster, with a definite arrangement of flowers. Another reference states the flowering section of a plant which is a bit more explanatory.
Zac
Taylor
10-22-2006, 12:34 PM
Oh, Okay Vertical is like this plant, and Horizontal is like your Basjoo? Do I have that right?
Zac in NC
10-22-2006, 12:38 PM
No, horizontal isn't basjoo. Basjoo droops like most edible bananas. If the banana you have pictured is the bench mark is at a 0 degree angle, then mannii would be at a 90 degree angle ( more or less) to the pstem, and basjoo would be almost 180 degrees from the pstem, if this makes any sense.
Zac
Taylor
10-22-2006, 12:40 PM
Okay, I got lost a "No", so I'll ask you later on AIM, But now- I get to go buy a greenhouse, or maybe supplies. I dont know which, my parents are keeping it a secret!!!!
Taylor
mrbungalow
10-22-2006, 12:42 PM
I think it's definately Musa Ingens....:ha:
Those bananas that belong to Taylors' friend: They don't look that small, do they? We had a discussion similar to this on another thread. Learned alot about musa ornata and musa velutina there. But I don't know that much about manni, except what you guys said here about dark stems and narrow leaves. I am still getting a feeling it's ornata... Size and shape of the leaves are definately different in the photos. But then again, there is no flower..
Gabe15
10-22-2006, 12:45 PM
Frank,
I dont know if you have seen real Musa mannii up close, espescially the infloresence which is very distinct. Attached are pictures of Musa mannii. The plant taylor shows may not be true Musa ornata, however true Musa ornata is said to be of hybrid origin to begin with, and there are many commercial hybrids, however it is easy to tell that it is not Musa mannii at all.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=1540 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1539&ppuser=5)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=1537 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1526&ppuser=5)
(sorry these 2 are turned wrong, my computer can never seem to get it right)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=1539&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1539&ppuser=5)
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=1538&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1538&ppuser=5)
Zac in NC
10-22-2006, 12:47 PM
Oh cool Taylor. Hope they actually buy a GH.
Erlend- I agree with your assessment that it is definitely a Musa ingens.....LOL...I think it should be known as Musa ingens 'Dwarf Pink Heat tolerant' JK
Zac
Taylor
10-22-2006, 12:47 PM
Wow, big difference between the two......
Taylor
10-22-2006, 12:49 PM
Zac- I know- that would be so cool!
And Zac again- and mrbungalow- Yeah definately a rare mutation of Ingens right there! Who would have known....:doggyandnaner:
bigdog
10-22-2006, 08:50 PM
I actually haven't seen Musa mannii flower. It is very cold-hardy, but our growing season is not long enough for it to flower here. As for the peduncle being horizontal, none of the descriptions of mannii say that. In fact, they all state that it is erect. Moore (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/mmannii.htm) says this of the inflorescence though:
The lax, smooth inflorescence, about 15 cm. long in the flowering portion, is somewhat inclined but neither horizontal or recurved.
Which would lead me to believe that the inflorescence tilts at a slight angle from the peduncle. Gotta admit, I really didn't pay that close attention to the "pale crimson" description of the bracts though. Oops! :2739:
Musa rubinea looks different, to me, than Musa mannii. I like this pic for reference (from the folks that introduced Musa rubinea into cultivation). Musa rubinea is in the foreground, and Musa ornata in the background.
http://natureproducts.net/Forest_Products/Bananas/Musa%20rubralinda.jpg
Just found this picture...taken October 26, 2005, of my clump of Musa mannii (R.I.P.). This is as close as I've gotten to a flower - a flag leaf.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/bigfish5791/endofseason012-1.jpg
An August 20th, 2005 shot of the small clump:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/bigfish5791/Aug20garden018-1.jpg
So, while what Taylor's photo shows may not be the true Musa mannii, I think it more closely resembles M. mannii than M. ornata. No, the flower color is not right for M. mannii, and there isn't much black coloration (but there is a little) on the pseudostems. Probably a hybrid of sorts.
Gabe, where did you get those pics? Where were they taken? Given that the description of M. mannii says that the peduncle is erect, maybe those pics are not of M. mannii, and actually something else? Just a thought.
Gabe15
10-22-2006, 09:54 PM
Frank,
the first 2 pictures are from various seed websites I and took the last 2 at The Huntington in California earlier this year. I have many more pictures if you would like to see in private. You can believe what you want, but Taylor's pictures are not Musa mannii, and the ones I posted are. I dont think its possible that Taylor's plant can be a pure species at all, given that even pure M. ornata is not a pure species and there are many cultivated hybrids, however, it is much closer to Musa ornata (definetly has M. ornata parentage) and is not similar at all to Musa mannii.
bigdog
10-23-2006, 11:47 AM
Gabe...I will concede that Taylor's plants may not be Musa mannii. I do, however, think that they look similar to musa mannii in growth habit, size, etc.
I have a question about your pictures. Since all of the descriptions of Musa mannii state that the peduncle is erect, how does that explain the semihorizontal-horizontal peduncles in your pics?
I love a good debate. It's all in fun! :2623:
Gabe15
10-23-2006, 11:56 AM
Those original descriptions are not a percise as some of the modern ones. Most species are either pendant or erect, especially many of the ones described in that time, however, since M. mannii is closer to being erect then pedant, I imagine they just "rounded" it off without mentioning its intermediate position, also, everything still points up most of the time, just kinda up-and-sideways, there will of course be differences between individual plants however. Both Musa ornata and Musa mannii are in the section Rhodochlamys as Im sure you know which generally have very similar growth habits, so its best we distingiush them by flowers instead of foliage.
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